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09-13-2004, 02:24 AM | #1 | |
Princess of Skwerlz
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles)
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LotR -- Book 2 - Chapter 01 - Many Meetings
We now begin our discussion of Book 2! Thanks to all those who have stuck with us and contributed so far.
This chapter is the account of one single day, told completely from Frodo’s point of view. It is his first conscious day in Rivendell, the awakening after his near-tragedy and the eucatastrophe which he did not remember experiencing. It begins with the reunion with Gandalf, though Frodo (and we) are not yet told why he failed to meet him earlier. Gandalf’s narrative fills in the empty spaces in the story, but more than that – he praises Frodo’s strength to withstand the influence of evil so far. Interestingly, he calls the experience in the Barrow the most dangerous moment of all. The possible reasons for that will provide us with interesting discussion material! (…in this most dangerous place… ) The dialogue, which consists mostly of Frodo’s questions and Gandalf’s answers, takes up the first pages of the chapter. Then come more of the meetings of which the chapter title speaks – reunions with Frodo’s friends, and later on, with Bilbo - yes, and with Glorfindel too; and acquaintance with new friends in Rivendell. Elrond is introduced, as is Arwen; Glóin is an old friend to those who have previously read The Hobbit, though known only by hearsay to Frodo; and Lindir is named as one of the many Elves who live at Rivendell. (His comment is one of my favorite lines in this chapter: “To sheep other sheep no doubt appear different, or to shepherds.” ) We get to know Aragorn from his kingly side, and another of his many names is revealed. Two poems give their special flavour to this chapter: Bilbo’s “Ëarendil was a mariner” and the Elves’ “A Elbereth Gilthoniel”. No translation from the original Sindarin is offered here for the latter (a daring authorial decision, but one that adds to the verisimilitude of the story!), though Bilbo comments that it is a song to Elbereth. However, Tolkien provided one along with explanations when the poem was set to music by Donald Swann in The Road Goes Ever On. Here it is: Quote:
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'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...' |
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09-13-2004, 06:57 AM | #2 | ||||
Illustrious Ulair
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
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We know we are no longer in ‘our’ world ‘Time doesn’t pass, in Rivendell, it just ‘is’, its difficult to even stay awake - one is constantly drifting into dreams. Frodo has finally passed over the ‘River’, which he had dreamed of doing, but he will never fully be able to pass back. The others will, like Thomas, returning from the OtherWorld with the gift of prophecy (‘The Tongue that Cannot Lie’) but Frodo won’t ever be able to reintegrate fully into this world - why? Perhaps because he became too bound to the ring, the ultimate source of OtherWorldly power & magic. Ironically, the more he integrates himself into the OtherWorld, the more he severs his links with the world of the iving. On their return the others feel like they’re waking up from a long dream, but Frodo feels like he is falling asleep. In the end the living world will become for Frodo what the OtherWorld is for his fellow hobbits - a place of dream, unreal, & he will always feel out of place, yearning for the place he has come to belong in. |
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09-13-2004, 08:24 PM | #3 |
Late Istar
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,224
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After the excitement of the previous two chapters, Book II begins with a needed respite. Like chapter 1 of Book I, there is no real danger in this chapter, and the plot is not very much advanced. What does come across very strongly here is milieu - the feeling of Rivendell (that is, the feeling of Faerie) is perfectly captured. Book I began with a chapter that offered a vivid impression of Hobbiton; the rest of that book amounted to a journey away from the mundane and toward Faerie. As others have noted in previous chapter discussions, each time Frodo crosses a river he moves farther into the "otherworld". Now he has fully arrived, and a chapter offereing a vivid impression of Rivendell completes the journey.
This chapter also contains a rather impressive poem, Bilbo's "Earendil was a Mariner". I never cease to be impressed with the scheme of the poem, rhymes on every second line and assonance between the end of the off-lines and the second foot of the rhyming lines. Tolkien wrote that he was only able to write in this meter once and never again - but the "Earendil" poem is actually a heavy revision of his older poem "Errantry"; so he had sufficient command of its form at least for that. Interestingly, the version found in LotR was not the one that was meant to be. Tolkien had revised the poem further, but apparently could not find that revision at the time of publication and was forced to use this one. The "correct" version can be found in HoMe VII. |
09-13-2004, 08:55 PM | #4 | ||
Bittersweet Symphony
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: On the jolly starship Enterprise
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Ah, True Thomas. A great guy and a great poem.
A very interesting post regarding the significance of the green clothing, davem, and the points you make are quite valid. The green is symbolic of the "Otherworld," as you say, and of how Frodo is being permanently drawn into this world. But I would not exactly also take a view of green being symbolic of life or rebirth. Here he is entering a world of calm and peace amid the dangers outside of Rivendell, and is regaining his health. He is not the same due to his experiences with the Ringwraiths, and he never will be, but he is still on the road to recovery. The color green could offer protection, since, as Gandalf says, Rivendell is safe Quote:
One of the parts I find most interesting in this chapter is the part when Bilbo asks to see the Ring, especially the following passage: Quote:
As a final thought: has anyone else noticed the similarities between the Hall of Fire in this chapter and the Tale-Fire of HoME I? |
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09-14-2004, 01:44 AM | #5 | ||
Illustrious Ulair
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
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To what extent is Frodo's time in Rivendell similar to Niggle's in the workhouse? Both periods take place in a post 'death' state, & both result in the hero ultimately leaving & going beyond the limits of the physical world (the 'Mountains' or the 'Sea'). Rivendell would work for me in that role - the place of preparation for the task ahead, the creation of Niggle's Parish,or the destruction of the Ring - though of course in a sense the whole of Frodo's journey is his 'workhouse'.
On Aiwendil's point about the Earendel verse in LotR not being the final version (it misses out a verse on the attack by the Sons of Feanor on the Havens of Sirion, among other things) : Quote:
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09-14-2004, 03:40 AM | #6 |
Princess of Skwerlz
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles)
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Aiwendil, I too noticed the similarity of the two poems "Ëarendil was a mariner" and "Errantry", which also has a mariner as its main protagonist. Since I didn't know which one was written first, I wondered if "Errantry" was perhaps his own parody, but your comment answers that question. Thanks! I may come back with a closer look at comparing the two if I have time this week.
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'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...' |
09-14-2004, 04:55 AM | #7 | |||
Gibbering Gibbet
Join Date: Feb 2004
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Hmmm…I appear to have a slightly different view of this chapter than some. Yes, I see that this chapter is one of the refuges in the refuge-danger cycle of the narrative, but I don’t see it as a pause in the action, nor as a moment in which Frodo makes any grand kind of transition between starkly opposed realms (life/death, mundane/faerie). What I thin is happening here is that Frodo is continuing his journey toward a fuller awareness of the world around him – of both the light and dark.
The chapter is full of moments in which the nature of things is revealed. The brilliance of the chapter is that nothing ‘new’ is really learned (that is for the masterpiece ‘Council of Elrond’ coming next week *pant pant*); instead, we & Frodo learn more about things we are already familiar with. It is, fittingly, Gandalf who kicks off the chapter’s ambivalent exploration of reality with his mysterious return, and equally mysterious refusal to explain why. We learn from him that: Quote:
But the light is revealed, as is the dark. Gandalf goes on to explain who Glorfindel is and that because of Elves like him Quote:
The rest of the chapter works through a number of such apprehensions as Frodo begins to see the world and the people in it in a whole new way. Aragorn looks like a person transformed at the banquet, thanks to his presence near Arwen, who is herself a revelation of the full reality of M-E, in all it’s glory and sadness: “the likeness of Luthien had come on earth again: and she was called Undómiel, for she was the Evenstar of her people.” We are then treated to the poem in the Hall of Fire (which I love, and thanks Aiwendil for your perceptive comments), in which the full beauty of the world is revealed fully to Frodo, immediately followed by Bilbo’s ‘transformation’ in which the full ugliness of the world is rather forcefully brought home to him. It’s almost as though poor old Frodo is stuck between two ways of looking at the world, here in Rivendell. On the one hand, is the way he looks at Arwen at the banquet, in which Frodo is almost able to have Elvish eyes onto the beauty, power and majesty of existence – tinged with sadness though it may be, it is wonderful; on the other hand, he is able to ‘see’ the Nine for what they really are, and Bilbo looks like Gollum to him. This is the conflict that will begin to consume him as he travels (hope and despair?). The chapter ends with a great little bit of foreshadowing though, in which we look ahead to get a hint of how this tension might be resolved for Frodo, finally: Quote:
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08-19-2018, 09:06 PM | #8 |
Laconic Loreman
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I've always appreciated how the chapters in Book I and Book II follow the same pattern, to the point where they nearly mirror each other.
A Long-Expected Party - Many Meetings What happens in these chapters is a grand party/feast takes place and the matter of the Ring is pushed off/delayed to a later time. A Long-Expected Party, we aren't told anything about the Ring other than Bilbo's acting most unusual and Gandalf's worried about it. Many Meetings, Frodo presses Gandalf for answers on why he was delayed and what will be done with the Ring now that he's got it this far to Rivendell. Gandalf keeps refusing to answer, or only giving half-answers and says "we'll talk about that later, for the present all is good." During the feast, Gloin guesses at Frodo's troubles and reasons he's in Rivendell, Frodo doesn't want to talk about it and Gloin doesn't want to discuss why he's in Rivendell, at the present. It's a chapter, where all the characters keep saying they don't want to discuss anything to do with the Ring or why Elrond's called for a Council, 'at the present'. A Long-Expected Party we weren't aware of the danger of the Ring. In Many Meetings we are and we know the Ring can't stay in Rivendell, but the question of what's going to happen gets put off to a date that's not the present. And then both chapters get followed by some of the longest chapters in the books, with a lot of dialogue and the question "what will happen with the Ring?" is thoroughly discussed, And here we see another side to Aragorn's character I never really considered before. His bloodline and descent from Numenor is made clear in this chapter. He is one of the 'high and mighty' characters, but soon after this is revealed by Gandalf and Bilbo there he is sitting and helping an old hobbit write songs. Some other tidbits I picked up on this time through - Gloin's mention "tolls" charged by Grimbeorn and his folk in keeping the path from Dale to Rivendell safe for travelers. You can get stuck thinking this is a tale of just all good people vs. all evil people, but Grimbeorn's charging 'high tolls' to keep roads safe. I know it's absurd but I'm just picturing Grimbeorn and a band of merry men (think they wore tights?) -The description (through Frodo's eyes) of his first sight of Elrond, with Glorfindel and Gandalf on his right and left hand side: "revealed as lords of dignity and power" Gandalf shorter than the other two, but looked "like some wise king of ancient legend" Glorfindel "voice like music, on his brow sat wisdom, and in his hand was strength." Elrond "Venerable" "a tried warrior in the fullness of his strength," "mighty among both Elves and Men."
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