The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum


Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page

Go Back   The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum > Middle-Earth Discussions > The Books
User Name
Password
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-04-2008, 02:43 PM   #41
Dwarven Warrior
Newly Deceased
 
Dwarven Warrior's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 7
Dwarven Warrior has just left Hobbiton.
I love this thread!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alfirin View Post
But heat alone can't make fire turn green; the color/heat pattern for fire is the same one (quite logically) for magnitute of stars. From coolest to hottest it goes- red,orange,yellow, white, blue-white. Fire can't burn green witout help.
But no other dragon other than Smaug has ever done this. I'm scurrying through my LotR books here, and I can't find anywhere else that it says that.
__________________
An angry dwarf is a dealy foe!
Dwarven Warrior is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-04-2008, 02:58 PM   #42
Legate of Amon Lanc
A Voice That Gainsayeth
 
Legate of Amon Lanc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In that far land beyond the Sea
Posts: 7,163
Legate of Amon Lanc has passed beneath the Argonath.Legate of Amon Lanc has passed beneath the Argonath.Legate of Amon Lanc has passed beneath the Argonath.Legate of Amon Lanc has passed beneath the Argonath.Legate of Amon Lanc has passed beneath the Argonath.Legate of Amon Lanc has passed beneath the Argonath.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dwarven Warrior View Post
But no other dragon other than Smaug has ever done this. I'm scurrying through my LotR books here, and I can't find anywhere else that it says that.
But it is probable the others did too, even though it isn't mentioned. Generalising is often dangerous, but at this time I believe we can take it granted for all dragons. In Roverandom, if I recall correctly, the Dragon of the Moon also did breathe green flames, even though it isn't a M-E story, it shows that Tolkien was quite fond of green fire so we could expect it from other dragons in his works as well. (Personally, I think it is some sort of expression from Tolkien to give "fairytale" quality to a "normal" fire - I wouldn't put it past him - and in that case, our question is solved: of course it was a "magic" fire.)
__________________
"But it is not your own Shire," said Gildor. "Others dwelt here before hobbits were; and others will dwell here again when hobbits are no more. The wide world is all about you: you can fence yourselves in, but you cannot for ever fence it out."
Legate of Amon Lanc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-04-2008, 09:56 PM   #43
cesar.ewok
Pile O'Bones
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 25
cesar.ewok has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via MSN to cesar.ewok
Túrin has some information regarding the spirit and the body of the dragon:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Children of Húrin
His power is rather in the evil spirit that dwells within him than in the might of his body, great though that be.
Though it's Túrin's own conclusion, if true, it would strongly suggest that the "fire" and the "hypnotizing" abilities come from the spirit, for the dragon proper is refered to as just the body (compare Túrins words: "His power is rather in the evil spirit that dwells within him").

Morgoth probably transferred subcreative power and lore to the drangon's spirit; a similar process took place with Sauron and the Witch-King:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Letters, #210
There, put in command by Sauron, he [the Witch-king] is given an added demonic force.
Therefore, this wouldn't require the body of the dragon to possess an "indwelling fire" at all: the fire would be produced at the spitting. But, of course, the body would have to be strong enough to withstand the fire next to which it would stand.

Many suggested that the indwelling spirit would be lesser Maiar-like, but I found something possibly contrary in the Silmarillion:

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Silmarillion
He [Glaurung] was yet young and scarce half-grown, for long and slow is the life of the dragons, but the Elves fled before him to Ered Wethrin and Dorthonion in dismay; and he defiled the fields of Ard-galen.
Would this suggest that dragons die, for "long and slow" are their lives? Would this be possible being them Maiar?
cesar.ewok is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-04-2008, 11:16 PM   #44
William Cloud Hicklin
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,817
William Cloud Hicklin is a guest at the Prancing Pony.William Cloud Hicklin is a guest at the Prancing Pony.
Moreover dragons are born (or at least hatched), which militates against the Maia-theory.
__________________
It is good to be both loved and feared; but if one cannot be both, it is better to be feared than loved" --Machiavelli
William Cloud Hicklin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2008, 04:26 AM   #45
Legate of Amon Lanc
A Voice That Gainsayeth
 
Legate of Amon Lanc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In that far land beyond the Sea
Posts: 7,163
Legate of Amon Lanc has passed beneath the Argonath.Legate of Amon Lanc has passed beneath the Argonath.Legate of Amon Lanc has passed beneath the Argonath.Legate of Amon Lanc has passed beneath the Argonath.Legate of Amon Lanc has passed beneath the Argonath.Legate of Amon Lanc has passed beneath the Argonath.
Quote:
Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin View Post
Moreover dragons are born (or at least hatched), which militates against the Maia-theory.
This is why I thought they are rather similar to Eagles or Ents, about whom we know had some sort of spirits in them, yet they bred, grew and probably also died of old age. Similarly, we don't know, I believe, what kind of "spirits" dwelt inside the Werewolves - I believe it might have been the same. And in all cases, these were NOT maiar.*

Just for reference, that thing I meant about Ents is here (spoken by Manw to Yavanna):
Quote:
Originally Posted by Silmarillion; Of Aul and Yavanna
When the Children awake, then the thought of Yavanna will awake also, and it will summon spirits from afar, and they will go among the kelvar and the olvar, and some will dwell therein.
And we know the Ents could breed, have children, the same goes about Eagles (Gwaihir and his kin were only descendants of Thorondor; and you can check that Landroval is said to be Gwaihir's brother in RotK).

*It remains a question where is the border between animal spirit and this kind of spirit. Because I just thought that the animals, given their nature in M-E, probably also have simply some spirit "summoned from afar", though of different, "lesser" kind (reminds me of Aristotle); and now see, you have eagles, who are messengers of Valar and everything, but you have also let's say hawks, who are not that different from eagles, but they are "only" animals.
__________________
"But it is not your own Shire," said Gildor. "Others dwelt here before hobbits were; and others will dwell here again when hobbits are no more. The wide world is all about you: you can fence yourselves in, but you cannot for ever fence it out."
Legate of Amon Lanc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2008, 02:12 PM   #46
cesar.ewok
Pile O'Bones
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 25
cesar.ewok has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via MSN to cesar.ewok
Legate, Tolkien actually states that the Eagles had no spirit:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morgoth's Ring, Myths Transformed
The same sort of thing may be said of Huan and the Eagles: they were taught language by the Valar, and raised to a higher level - but they still had no far.
Can we assume this is a canonical conclusion? Tolkien states it very conclusively, and it is, as far as I know, his last word on the subject.
cesar.ewok is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2008, 02:19 PM   #47
Legate of Amon Lanc
A Voice That Gainsayeth
 
Legate of Amon Lanc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In that far land beyond the Sea
Posts: 7,163
Legate of Amon Lanc has passed beneath the Argonath.Legate of Amon Lanc has passed beneath the Argonath.Legate of Amon Lanc has passed beneath the Argonath.Legate of Amon Lanc has passed beneath the Argonath.Legate of Amon Lanc has passed beneath the Argonath.Legate of Amon Lanc has passed beneath the Argonath.
Alright, thanks for bringing that up. Well, whatever you wish. Personally I was not using HoME, because I don't possess it. Anyway, I think the point is clear from the above, it wasn't about Eagles, but about Dragons - and if not Eagles, then use the Ents as example.
__________________
"But it is not your own Shire," said Gildor. "Others dwelt here before hobbits were; and others will dwell here again when hobbits are no more. The wide world is all about you: you can fence yourselves in, but you cannot for ever fence it out."
Legate of Amon Lanc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2008, 04:45 PM   #48
The Might
Guard of the Citadel
 
The Might's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Oxon
Posts: 2,287
The Might is a guest at the Prancing Pony.The Might is a guest at the Prancing Pony.
Just short about the Eagle thing.
It may be that that is said in Morgoth's Ring and Myths Transformed are later writings but as CT remarks there these passages show a lot of debate in the Professor's mind and you can't clearly say that he would have chosen eagles without fear over those from the Sil.
__________________
The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike.
Delos B. McKown
The Might is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 03:05 AM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.