Tol-in-Gaurhoth LXIX: Were-Librarians

[Nienna]

I'm on lunch break so I should be around for a while if anyone has questions or whatever.

So far I'm a little concerned about Mac. He has been doing the most analyzing so is not being analyzed. His suspicion of me had no real grounds except that he didn't like my phrasing?... I'm happy he has now backed off and put me on the innocent side of the list but he really started the bandwagon for me which would have saved Sally. I'm going to keep looking and I'll update as needed.

Boro is seeming innocent for me right now. I think it was his banter with Sally at the beginning. It didn't seem wolf on wolf but more wolf on innocent.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Nienna

So far I'm a little concerned about Mac. He has been doing the most analyzing so is not being analyzed. His suspicion of me had no real grounds except that he didn't like my phrasing?

Oh, I've got my eye on Mac too– he sort of started this "the kill could point to Nerwen" thing, after all. (However, I always like to puzzle out the possible reasons for a no-trace kill myself, so I don't want to read too much into that.)

[alonariel]

Originally Posted by Macalaure

Form -> Hakon - looks genuine to me, though a concealed attempt to save Sally is not impossible
alona -> Mac - throwaway vote without any reason. I think a librarian would have tried to make her vote look more polished.

which makes:

nice:
Hakon
Form
alona

My throwaway vote would definitely fuel your theory that the librarians are an inexperienced bunch during this game, and the fact that I had Newbie protection for the first Day certainly would be help. The roles for this game were chosen at random, after all...

Seeing Form on the nice list, I was a little surprised - I noticed his attempt to cast suspicion elsewhere for Sally as well. And though nice doesn't mean innocent, he was wary of voting for both Nerwen and Sally.

Originally Posted by Formendacil

Nerwen's protests have me chivalrously afraid to vote her. Sally's bandwaggon is admittedly weak--I agree full about her point re: Hakon, and I've already said I don't get Mac's Nienna vote.

How was the bandwaggon for Sally weak? She was practically on the hunt for Boro throughout the first half of Day 1, and then always reacting to the votes against her, rather than try and allay the suspicion that fueled those votes in the first place, as Mac said.

Originally Posted by Feanor of the Peredhil

I'm going to pick up our lovely moddesses from their respective bus stop and airport terminal. No telling when I'll return, but it will obviously be before deadline.

Be sure to tackle glomp her for me! And make sure she gets some rest after that red eye flight! You know how Lari can be...

Originally Posted by Nessa Telrunya

But Nienna's reasoning doesn't sound particularly wolfish to me, and she voted to kill Sally when it would've been easier to vote Nerwen, who already had two votes at the time.

But that's just what it looked like. I'd be glad to hear everyone's thoughts on this.

At this point, I'm leaning towards Nienna being innocent. Her phrasing didn't raise up any flags for me, and like you said, she could have used her vote to put Nerwen in the lead for being lynched, but she didn't. And in the end, she did vote to kill off a wolf, Sally. Unless the librarians are willing to kill one of their own to make themselves look innocent, but that's doubtful...

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by alonariel

Seeing Form on the nice list, I was a little surprised - I noticed his attempt to cast suspicion elsewhere for Sally as well. And though nice doesn't mean innocent, he was wary of voting for both Nerwen and Sally.

How was the bandwaggon for Sally weak? She was practically on the hunt for Boro throughout the first half of Day 1, and then always reacting to the votes against her, rather than try and allay the suspicion that fueled those votes in the first place, as Mac said.

I think Form meant the fact that Nienna and Hakon merely gave vague IC reasons for their votes. But as you say, Sally was acting pretty obviously guilty– or so I thought, anyway. (Experienced players do tend to have a sort of knee-jerk reaction to unreasoned voting, though.)

Originally Posted by alonariel

And in the end, she did vote to kill off a wolf, Sally. Unless the librarians are willing to kill one of their own to make themselves look innocent, but that's doubtful...

Believe it or not, that happens quite a lot, but I think it's pretty unlikely in this case. Sally's delay in voting Nienna to save herself is slightly eyebrow-raising, but she was probably waiting to see which out of Nienna and I would get the most votes.

[Macalaure]

Originally Posted by Nienna

So far I'm a little concerned about Mac. He has been doing the most analyzing so is not being analyzed.

Not my fault.

Originally Posted by Nienna

His suspicion of me had no real grounds except that he didn't like my phrasing?

There was more, but it's not important anymore now.

Originally Posted by Alonariel

My throwaway vote would definitely fuel your theory that the librarians are an inexperienced bunch during this game

Now slowly everybody: I was thinking aloud and ended up with it. I'm far away from saying that's how things are.

[Boromir88]

Well, I'll accept your explanation for the moment. I noticed your Seer-hints, by the way, but as Sally didn't look any too innocent to me, I guessed you were faking it... but I didn't know why.~Nerwen

I didn't suspect anything until her last post, before the DL, which looked frantic and desperate. Sally has always been a bit...unconventional, and probably why it's always hard to figure her out. I was wondering about her avatar of Hermione holding books, but took it as a crazy-sally trick, not librarian sally.

Getting the votes and stuff together from yesterday now

[autume98]

This is all very interesting indeed. I'm really not sure what to think at this moment. In hindsight I probably shoulda posted my suspicions about Nienna before I did. Alas, that does me no good.

Now after taking a look at the voting I don't think Nienna is a wolf. It would've been a lot easier for her to vote for someone else then vote for Sally making it a wolf on wolf vote.

[Boromir88]

Boro -> autume - Boro, why is "A lot of commentary mixed in with a couple jokes" suspicious?~Mac

Why do you think autume is guilty then?

But seriously for Day 1, I can't think of a better reason yet to vote for someone than besides a player who just comments on the activity, not really offering an opinion, and tries some jokes to look nice (it's the fair to be wary of, not someone who will call a rat a rat). Sometimes I'm pretty cheerful, if there's a good lot of posting, but I called Inzil a commentator last game because that's what he was doing and only offering his opinion on completely irrelevant matters like whether a wolf would openly like blood or not. I got the same commenting feel from autume's first couple posts (and after the point when the true suspicions were supposed to start) - and I mentally graded her list a "D-'' ...oops I just made a joke.

I was going to analyze the votes, but seeing as from the morning I missed Mac's posting of votes and analysis, all I can really say is for the most part I agree with it, but will point out the differences...

None of the sally voters strikes 'wolf on wolf' to me, so I'm not sure why there are suspicions around Nerwen? She was pretty set on either Fea or sally right when they first voted for her. The only reason her vote came when it did, is because she was in a position where it was reasonable to withhold her vote in case she had to safe herself. Plus...well she got a wolf, a wolf she suspected almost immediately.

Nienna looks the most innocent, for that end of the day bit with sally. When sally first voted for Nienna, I thought she never retracted, therefor it shouldn't count and wondered if sally was going down in 'style' to try and protect a wolf-Nienna. However, based on what sally said and Lari counted it for a tie, than I'm assuming sally was purely voting for Nienna to try and save herself, not as some sacrificial trick to help Nienna. Does that make any sense? I'm afraid it makes sense in my head, but out on the screen it might not.

I'm worried about Formendacil's vote for Hakon, more so than Mac. It could be genuine confusion, caused by Form joining us late and trying to read through the day. But I don't know that rushing could also just be a wolf-Form joining in late, seeing sally in trouble and trying to figure out what to do to save her. I want to hear more from Form about his vote, he should now have plenty of time and not be rushed by the DL.

[Hakon]

I think we can rule out Alona from being a wolf. From the few games I have read through newbies are almost never wolves. One thing all of you need to realize is that if Nienna truly is innocent then she will most likely be killed off real soon. That way we have no one we can say is definitely innocent.

There is no reasoning behind this but I just have a hunch that Mac is the ranger. I tend to run off my hunches since last game I had a hunch that Pitchwife was the ranger and I was right.

[alonariel]

Originally Posted by Hakon

I think we can rule out Alona from being a wolf. From the few games I have read through newbies are almost never wolves. One thing all of you need to realize is that if Nienna truly is innocent then she will most likely be killed off real soon. That way we have no one we can say is definitely innocent.

See, in this game, the moddesses pegged the roles at random. The fact that I'm a newbie has nothing to do with the role I received, just as the past history of roles of all the other players have no bearing on the role they received in this game. This makes me not only wary of people who I would generally discern are innocent based on their relationship with the moddesses, but also those who have been wolves in the past. In this case, using your past history against you is essentially useless.

Hakon: You said there's a fair chance I'm not a wolf, but didn't regard me as an innocent. Do you have a hunch about my role like you do Mac's?

[Boromir88]

My first game I was the seer, I did adequately enough, it was SpM who took over and won it for us, but I agree with alona we shouldn't rule out anyone for any role based on how many games someone has played. Some mods pick players, some do a type of random hat pull, others do a mix. There's really no way of knowing. Hunches are good though, because hunches are starting points, now you have to have reasons for your hunches, care to explain Hakon?

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

No, no, the explanation to which I referred was that I hadn't killed you because I wasn't a wolf.

Yeah, because I wasn't talking about you. You more or less invented that. I was responding to the idea of the bad guys as a group not killing me. You were an afterthought. You're the one who made my post be all about you.

Seriously, I repeat: I don't know if you're evil, and right now I don't care.

Boromir seems to be making sense, Hakon's logic seems flawed, but I'm not sure if that's because he's new or if it's because he's trying really hard.

I'm very distracted by the presence of the mods, though, so I'm going to pay attention to them for a bit.

[Nienna]

I agree with Boro on what he said about Mods... It has been my experience that some people request roles and then the mods can decide if they want to heed this requests or not. Most try for random but it is not often easy.

EDIT: x-ed with Fea

[Boromir88]

I can tell you how I'm going to choose roles for my upcoming game But that won't be relevant, so you'll just have to wait, and I doubt Lari would like someone advertising during her game.

So onward with suspected book wolvery, I think this topic has had enough air time(as long as I get the last word)

[Lariren Shadow]

No I wouldn't...but at some point I would like to know

And, for reference because there is discussion, the roles were random. A hat was used to pick them.

[Macalaure]

I can't believe that nobody has thrown in a bit of basic werewolf lore yet: If you have a hunch about the gifteds, unless you're evil yourself, for crying out loud - shut up! With very few exceptions, you're only helping the wolves!

Originally Posted by Boro

Hunches are good though, because hunches are starting points, now you have to have reasons for your hunches, care to explain Hakon?

Boro, did you just seriously ask Hakon to elaborate on why he thinks I'm the ranger?? Hakon might get a pass for that for being new, you know better.

Boro=evil.

[alonariel]

Originally Posted by Macalaure

I can't believe that nobody has thrown in a bit of basic werewolf lore yet: If you have a hunch about the gifteds, unless you're evil yourself, for crying out loud - shut up! With very few exceptions, you're only helping the wolves!

Boro, did you just seriously ask Hakon to elaborate on why he thinks I'm the ranger?? Hakon might get a pass for that for being new, you know better.

Boro=evil.

I was in the middle of making a post that consisted of something like "Why would Boro want to further expose Mac as the ranger if he was a good guy?" Now, I'm not convinced Mac is the ranger - in fact, I have a feeling (much like Hakon's hunch) that he may not even be on the side of good in this game - but Boro's blatant fishing has me worried now. Evil? Maybe.

[Boromir88]

Boro, did you just seriously ask Hakon to elaborate on why he thinks I'm the ranger?? Hakon might get a pass for that for being new, you know better.

Boro=evil.~Mac

It's already been thrown out there and not be me, so stop making it look like this is some big secret we should shupt up about. I don't know why that makes me evil. And in this case the Ranger is much better protected because he/she can defend himself or anyone twice in a row...I figure the role is almost like the hunter where sometimes the hunter is more dangerous known than unknown.

This isn't the normal Ranger and I don't know why you jumped on me asking about Hakon's hunch. For all you know I could be the ranger and curious to Hakon's reasoning and trying to protect myself. (I'll say now before I get bombarded against by more people I'm not the Ranger...but whatever)

It's more evil that 2 people immediately jump out on me asking Hakon to explain himself.

[alonariel]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

It's more evil that 2 people immediately jump out on me asking Hakon to explain himself.

I wasn't trying to tag team you about questioning Hakon; I even asked a question of him. There's no need to get defensive (unless it's a guilty conscience speaking); as it is, you explained why you wanted to know about Hakon's hunch and it can be left at that. For now.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

OMGUS much, Boro? (Wow, I used a Mafia term.)

Here and reading. Foremost in my mind today is Fea vs. Nerwen, and of the two I think Nerwen the more likely to be innocent... but this could just be the general innocent vs. innocent that seems to happen every game.

[Formendacil]

Well, said Form, I'm back...

Which is to say that I've read over the thread, with greater detail here, less detail there. Unfortunately, as usual, I'm not having wolves leap out of the shadows and declare themselves--which is a crying shame, since that means I can look forward to the tedious task of trying to sort things out the old-fashioned way.

On the very recent (relative to the rest of the day) note that Mac could be a Gifted/Wolf and Boro would be stupendously foolish to point out the former if that's the case... I haven't got any good reasons for thinking it at the moment, but as far as all that goes, my gut is on the side of Boromir and says that Mac could be a WW. The point was raised earlier that I might be a late-coming wolf voting Hakon in the hopes of saving Sally--I'm not, but I'm not so young at this as to think you'll take my word for it. The point has also already been made, I think, that Mac could have been doing the same thing with his Nienna vote. Oddly, perhaps, that line of reasoning doesn't especially bother me--if, indeed, it's true (as we cannot tell till the post-game) what Mac says about not knowing Nienna's Day 1 Death-Penchant. Perhaps this is just me and the skewed perspective of having visited said Downer.

However... even if Mac didn't seem guilty on the start-a-different-bandwaggon note, he does seem extra jumpy about Boro at the moment, and as I don't really know what to make of that, I'm inclined to ascribe it to Wolvery.

More anon...

[Macalaure]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

It's already been thrown out there and not be me, so stop making it look like this is some big secret we should shupt up about.

It's been thrown out as a hunch without anything to back it. Unlikely the librarians would seriously consider it as it stood. You were asking him to solidify it and, which would also cause the village to discuss gifteds instead of librarians.

Originally Posted by Boro

I don't know why that makes me evil.

See above.

Originally Posted by Boro

And in this case the Ranger is much better protected because he/she can defend himself or anyone twice in a row...I figure the role is almost like the hunter where sometimes the hunter is more dangerous known than unknown.

*takes a deep breath*

That is utter nonsense. Yes, the ranger is better protected and is able to take two night kills away from the librarians if revealed. But if he has to protect himself he cannot protect the seer twice and thus give us two additional dreams out of a revealed seer. Two dreams at the end of the game can be deciding! You know that well. Almost like the hunter? What threat is attacking the ranger to the librarians? None, except for losing kills.

Originally Posted by Boro

This isn't the normal Ranger and I don't know why you jumped on me asking about Hakon's hunch.

See above.

Originally Posted by Boro

For all you know I could be the ranger and curious to Hakon's reasoning and trying to protect myself. (I'll say now before I get bombarded against by more people I'm not the Ranger...but whatever)

No. If that was the case you would be gathering questionable information at the cost of risking the life of someone you do not know is not gifted.

Originally Posted by Boro

It's more evil that 2 people immediately jump out on me asking Hakon to explain himself.

True. It should have been more.


Alonariel - you voted for me yesterday without reason and you still think I'm suspicious... mind to share why?


Form, I'm jumpy about Boro because he did something an innocent Boro would not have done. Would a wolf-Boro do it? Not sure, maybe not, because it would be too risky. Would a cobbler-Boro do it? Yes. (Note that I said Boro=evil, not Boro=wolf.)
Anyway, with the Snitch's power the way it is, I would not consider lynching him a waste in the least.

[Nessa Telrunya]

Well, I fear being the first to vote, but RL restricts me from posting right up to the 1am deadline in my timezone. Now, going off of earlier musings of my own rather than the frenzied topics of Fea and Nienna is how I'm going to vote.

++Brinn


Now, before anyone demands the 'why', you can find my reasons already stated in post #119

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

I'm worried about Formendacil's vote for Hakon, more so than Mac. It could be genuine confusion, caused by Form joining us late and trying to read through the day. But I don't know that rushing could also just be a wolf-Form joining in late, seeing sally in trouble and trying to figure out what to do to save her. I want to hear more from Form about his vote, he should now have plenty of time and not be rushed by the DL.

Well, I'll do my best--expecting, of course, that even if it satisfies you, Boro, it'll give someone else cause for complaint. Anyway, it is part confusion--but not because I came in late in the Day. I did, of course, but I had hours enough to catch myself up to the action--just. I could argue, all the same, that it was post-Long Weekend exhaustion, mixed with the brain-buzzing beginnings of a head cold, but while that undoubtedly didn't contribute anything useful, it'd be unsporting to give my physical state late in Day 1 much leverage.

(Although... I still have the cold today, and absolutely puttered my way through work in a sitting standstill, so if you want to feel sorry for me, now's the day to do it--the cold's worse--but fuzzy though the edges of my skull are, I still think I can reason and gut-instinct with my usual catastrophe.)

Anyway, what was basically going through my mind yesterDay was what I told Mac about his vote for Nienna: I really didn't like it, for the simple reason that it came, more or less to my eyes, out of nowhere, and--given the knowledge stowed away in some back compartment of my mind about Nienna being the new Saucepan Person for an abnormally high Day 1 deathrate, it seemed--if any vote on Day 1 can seem so--like a potentially malicious vote. More obviously so that than the whole morass of Nerwen and Sally

You also have to remember, Boro that yesterday was a Day 1. I may have decided that Mac's vote for Nienna was wrong, but that's hardly enough of a reason right there to jump on a Sally or Nerwen bandwaggon. Who to vote for then? Well, the usual Day 1 conditions held, and I went for someone who wasn't objectively all that suspicious, but had just touched my instincts the wrong way, so felt more appropriate than a jump-on bandwaggon vote. Call me timid, but I don't like casting potentially decisive votes on Day 1. Given that I don't feel there are generally any good reasons to think someone's guilty on Day 1, it simply puts way too much emphasis on a vote I'd rather not make. If we'd have gone by mere alarm-setting off, I'd have voted Mac, but I'm still good enough at second-guessing myself to say that that would have been the usual Day 1-jumping-at-shadows.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

- Based on the Wilwa kill, I think Fea is innocent. The Fea I know wouldn't hide behind a no-trace kill (at least, I don't think she would.)

- Based on Mac's #106 - specifically this:

I do have to say that, reading Sally's later posts, I would probably have retracted to her. She criticised votes against her instead of suspicion against her and the way she tried to encourage people to vote Nienna doesn't look good either. Needless to say, this implies that Nienna is very probably innocent.

I think Mac could be guilty. Something about this strikes me as trying to share in the credit for the lynch of a librarian, and his vote for Nienna, while not the most suspicious thing about him, combines oddly with what he said about Sally encouraging people to vote for Nienna.

- Since I now begin to think badly of Mac, this post of Fea's catches my attention:

Mac is someone who I was worried about, but upon closer inspection, I think it was just me assuming that he might hypothetically be possibly someone to worry about, in theory. After I took a closer look at his posts, I do definitely think I was reading too much into them.

If Mac is in fact a wolf, I think this could be... something that I don't have the words for. It just looks odd, okay? Jeez.

- I agree with Nerwen's #109 (partially because she echoes my now-top-two suspects). I have to ask, though, why all this heaping suspicion on Nerwen?

- Fea mentions Nerwen again in #110, but Mac thinks her innocent in #111. I'm not sure which looks worse here, but I'm thing Mac for his 180.

- Boro's #113, especially this:

I had it narrowed down to a few, and was trying to think of some sort of good seerish hints to drop. So decided to use Princess Bride quotes. So, I picked sally as the fake dream, because of our history in the lover role, and I knew she'd get any PB reference.

This makes me feel pretty good about Boro, especially the hint thing. Just bad luck he picked on an actual baddie to hint to (and I feel stupid for not seeing the Princess Bride references myself; but then again, all the games with Phantom I've played and I haven't seen even one of his "hints" either.... guess I'm just bad at picking up hints. )

- Regarding Fea:

I daresay if I'm a were-librarian, the seer will already have dreamed of me and the village is well shot of me as soon as xe comes forth with the declaration, "Mon Dieu! Fea is, yet again, a wolf! We must kill her now!"

This quote seems Phantomish and I don't like it, especially since Fea was barely around Day 1.

- Nessa's #119 about Brinn seems well-thought-out, but I do have to wonder how much of Brinn's post was IC. Her reason for voting Nienna does seem weird, though; it might as well have been random, so why not just say that it was?

- This quote by Alonariel strikes me as odd:

How was the bandwaggon for Sally weak? She was practically on the hunt for Boro throughout the first half of Day 1, and then always reacting to the votes against her, rather than try and allay the suspicion that fueled those votes in the first place, as Mac said.

The first half of Day 1 was banter-only, really, by the command of the mods, so using that as a reason for voting seems strange. And then jumping on something that Mac has already said...Hmm.

- Mac again, #125:

Now slowly everybody: I was thinking aloud and ended up with it. I'm far away from saying that's how things are.

Except that you already said that! I don't like that you're trying to take back what you've said, Mac.

- Hakon's #129, about how we can rule out Alona, is wrong (as people have said, I think?) Newbieism doesn't preclude one from being a wolf.

Edit: X'ed with Formendacil.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Macalaure

Form, I'm jumpy about Boro because he did something an innocent Boro would not have done. Would a wolf-Boro do it? Not sure, maybe not, because it would be too risky. Would a cobbler-Boro do it? Yes. (Note that I said Boro=evil, not Boro=wolf.)
Anyway, with the Snitch's power the way it is, I would not consider lynching him a waste in the least.

Although my gut's still on Boro's side here, you do bring up an interesting point--I'd completely forgotten about the Cobbler. That would, certainly, put a whole different dimension on yesterday's events. The thought occurred to me, reading over yesterday's posts, that the whole Boro and Sally smooch-fest might have been one or the other's attempt to play at the Lovers--I did not think it likely that both would have done that, but in the same way a genuine Boro-Innocent would impersonate a seer to protect the seer, I could see a Boro-Cobbler impersonating a Lover to confuse the seer--and I could see Sally having played along with with it either way.

But I'm still not sold on it. Boromir's reasoning makes sense to me, and, anyway, I'm not sure why he would have picked Sally. If, as a Cobbler, he thought her innocent, then he's giving shelter to an Innocent--which makes no sense. If he thought her a wolf, it certainly would certainly give her protection, if the seer bought it--but would the seer buy it? And what reason would Boro-Cobbler have for thinking Sally a wolf at that stage in the game?

Yeah... not sold on it...

And Brinn has earned a vote. That's... actually not a bad case, prima facie, but I don't know if I like it yet. Nessa seems to be one of those players that stays comfortably below the surface--or, in other words, I can't read her.

[alonariel]

Originally Posted by Macalaure

Alonariel - you voted for me yesterday without reason and you still think I'm suspicious... mind to share why?

I'm sad to say at this point it's still just a hunch. I know it may be very newbie-ish of me to expose that hunch because, if I'm wrong, it gives my future speculations very little weight and, if I'm right, I could be killed in the night. Though one situation is preferable above the other, I'm not truly fond of either.

I was originally going to vote for Sally, but thought that she was playing the part of a wolf far too obvious to actually be a wolf. As it was, I was wrong. I had had you in the back of my mind throughout Day 1 mostly because of your suspicion of Nienna when I felt there was no basis for it. Whether that was wrong or not as well...we'll soon find out, I suspect.

Originally Posted by Formendacil

Well, the usual Day 1 conditions held, and I went for someone who wasn't objectively all that suspicious, but had just touched my instincts the wrong way, so felt more appropriate than a jump-on bandwaggon vote.

^ My feelings stated in a much clearer way, thank you Form.

I hope this explains some of my vote, even if it may be a little muddled. My voting for Day 1 had come after a very long day working with children, whose funny way of viewing the world does not always leave me with a very clear head afterwards.

[Boromir88]

OMGUS much, Boro? (Wow, I used a Mafia term.)~Shasta

Yes, but mostly in times of frustration when I'm not thinking clearly.

It's been thrown out as a hunch without anything to back it. Unlikely the librarians would seriously consider it as it stood.~Mac

That's unlikely, as soon as it's thrown out there, hunch or not, it's more likely the wolves would pay attention.

You should also consider it's an attempt by me to catch wolves in it's track...whether it's Hakon or another trying to turn the conversation. This is part that frustrates me the most, instead of waiting to see what happens, or try and figure out what someone is up to, anything that seems tricky or secretive is taken as a sign of evil. News flash, this is not always the case, innocents can use their own secrets to try and catch wolves, but when you immediately jump after someone and make them explain themselves, it makes the whole thing moot.

I would have thought I proved trustworthy enough after I came clean about my failed intentions with sally, yesterday and my blatant indication that I still had a few tricks up my sleeve.

You also should not downplay wolves missing kills, failed kills give us more days. For what it's worth I was purposefully trying to get people's reactions to Hakon and see if that would reveal anything, or if anyone was trying to steer conversation. As it is now, however and my intention is spilled, well I'm willing to let the matter lie where it is. If you desire to continue to pursue about the Ranger go ahead.

Form, I'm jumpy about Boro because he did something an innocent Boro would not have done. Would a wolf-Boro do it? Not sure, maybe not, because it would be too risky. Would a cobbler-Boro do it? Yes. (Note that I said Boro=evil, not Boro=wolf.)

This isn't meant to sound bitter, I'm just going to say it...don't presume you know what I would do as a wolf or as an innocent. Some may have a grasp on what I would do, but I remember not too long ago you were saying I was completely wrong about 'wasting' a lynch on a player who would wind up lynched anyway. Of course you were a wolf then, and maybe you were just lying, but you seemed pretty adamant that we wasted a lynch chance, when arguably we didn't.

I'm not infallible, I'm capable of mistakes and blunders and flubs like anyone else, but if I have my own rationale for doing what I do, hopefully that's enough to get trust.

Edit: crossed with everyone since Nessa's vote for Brinn.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

I'm not infallible, I'm capable of mistakes and blunders and flubs like anyone else, but if I have my own rationale for doing what I do, hopefully that's enough to get trust.

Blatantly asking us to trust you when you of all people know that no one is worthy of trust in a WW game? Hmm...

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

Blatantly asking us to trust you when you of all people know that no one is worthy of trust in a WW game? Hmm...

My trust in Lommy's innocence in Brinn's game was a big help, when you have nothing else that's what it takes working together and trust. I'm not talking about willy-nilly just whoever you want to trust, it takes gut feeling and of course proof that you can, which is what I am trying to display in my honest responses. No one will take me at my word for it, but I'm being straight with everyone about what I'm doing. Take it or leave it.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

This isn't meant to sound bitter, I'm just going to say it...don't presume you know what I would do as a wolf or as an innocent. Some may have a grasp on what I would do, but I remember not too long ago you were saying I was completely wrong about 'wasting' a lynch on a player who would wind up lynched anyway. Of course you were a wolf then, and maybe you were just lying, but you seemed pretty adamant that we wasted a lynch chance, when arguably we didn't.

If I may play conciliator, Mac need not have meant "what Boro himself would do as a Cobbler" so much as "what a cobbler, who might be Boro might do as a Cobbler"--which is quite another thing entirely. Of course, especially as I'm reading this into the single quote snippet in Boro's last post, if, in fact, Mac is imputing that he can delve into Boro's very psyche and retrieve the secrets of his probable actions--then, by all means, continue to pursue this course of argument. If nothing else, the defences Boro mounts and the attacks Mac offers should afford the rest of us the chance to pick out more of a vibe on both you.

[alonariel]

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

- This quote by Alonariel strikes me as odd:

The first half of Day 1 was banter-only, really, by the command of the mods, so using that as a reason for voting seems strange. And then jumping on something that Mac has already said...Hmm.

I do seem to be agreeing with Mac a lot, don't I? Whether it was done intentionally or by coincidence, I find it amusing either way.

And although the moddesses stated that there were no hints in their narration, they didn't say that players couldn't hide hints in their own narrations: so why isn't what Sally said IC fair game for deciding whether or not to vote for her? It was her attitude IC and her subsequent defense against the votes for her that created suspicion, in my view.

[alonariel]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Sally has always been a bit...unconventional, and probably why it's always hard to figure her out. I was wondering about her avatar of Hermione holding books, but took it as a crazy-sally trick, not librarian sally.

Being this is my first (official) game, I wonder if people have hidden clues to their identity in their avatars before?

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Originally Posted by alonariel

I do seem to be agreeing with Mac a lot, don't I? Whether it was done intentionally or by coincidence, I find it amusing either way.

And although the moddesses stated that there were no hints in their narration, they didn't say that players couldn't hide hints in their own narrations: so why isn't what Sally said IC fair game for deciding whether or not to vote for her? It was her attitude IC and her subsequent defense against the votes for her that created suspicion, in my view.

Yes, and then you voted him.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by alonariel

Being this is my first (official) game, I wonder if people have hidden clues to their identity in their avatars before?

Ermm... occasionally, yes... but so often on the order of a red herring or a complete accident that it'd be foolish at best, in my opinion, to base an argument on it. The same goes for locations and signatures.

Of course, after the game these things can be the most blatant of referents back, but in-game I've never seen them indicative.

Caveat: I could be horribly wrong. 'tis possible...

[Macalaure]

Originally Posted by Boro

That's unlikely, as soon as it's thrown out there, hunch or not, it's more likely the wolves would pay attention.

Pay attention, yes. Act on it, unlikely.

Originally Posted by Boro

You should also consider it's an attempt by me to catch wolves in it's track...whether it's Hakon or another trying to turn the conversation.

Now first it was that our specific ranger is better off being revealed, and now it's a plot to flush a librarian out. You did not act in a way one would try to flush a Hakon-wolf out (put pressure on him). And discussing gifteds as a way of making a baddie slip up? New tactic to me. Actually, the only one who discussed it in a suspicious way was you: trying to keep one's head out of it while encouraging others to make themselves look bad.


Boro, are you aware how defensive you are about this? I could backpedal and believe your intentions and call it a difference of opinion, but it's all a bit too much to make me change my mind.

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

Caveat: I could be horribly wrong. 'tis possible...

I wouldn't say so...for me I'll just say whatever my role is my coyote avatar is completely incidental. I had it before I even started playing in WW, and even before I expressed concerns it would automatically make people think I was a wolf. To which, I was assured that usually avatars, sigs, whatever aren't meant to be taken 'seriously.'

I will add however, it is a reason to at least start looking, or focusing on someone. If your reason is just a person's avatar alone, that's pretty poor, it's like suspecting someone for their placement of smilies or exclamation marks. However, it could be a reason to at least focus on someone and see if how they act, or their behavior, 'fits' their avatar, or whatever it is.

[alonariel]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

Of course, after the game these things can be the most blatant of referents back, but in-game I've never seen them indicative.

Caveat: I could be horribly wrong. 'tis possible...

Granted, the only info I'm running on is what Lari has told me about her past WW games, but my attention to detail can be both a blessing and a curse at times, I'm afraid.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

However, it could be a reason to at least focus on someone and see if how they act, or their behavior, 'fits' their avatar, or whatever it is.

Noted

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Macalaure

Boro, are you aware how defensive you are about this? I could backpedal and believe your intentions and call it a difference of opinion, but it's all a bit too much to make me change my mind.

Haha, now you try to make it look like some casual suspicion. You called me evil and underlined it...of course I'm defensive about that. I'm an up-tight and tense person, the amount of games won't change my personality.

I'm defensive because this is the exact argument I've had with other people in Fea's Republic game. It truly is something that frustrates me and I wish people could understand it.

If you want to know more about it, I can tell you more, but I have a feeling no matter what I say about it, it won't change your mind Mac. So, I'm moving on to other things. I'm telling you though you don't have to be immediately reactionary, give some time for things to play out, it doesn't even have to be a day, could just be a few hours. Then next time I probably won't get so defensive.

[Boromir88]

I'm going to put some Mac and Cheese in my system, when I get back, final thoughts on innocents/guiltys and my vote.