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04-04-2002, 10:07 AM | #1 |
Princess of Skwerlz
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Marriage in Middle-earth I (happy)
Upon reading the Silmarillion and Unfinished Tales, I have been pondering on marriages that Tolkien writes about. How are they described? What makes the difference between a good and a poor, even catastrophic, marriage? On this thread, let’s look at the positive examples; I will start another with the negative ones.
One very interesting good marriage is that of Melian and Thingol, written about in The Silmarillion. Melian was a Maia who left Valinor to live in Middle-earth. Elwë, lord of the Teleri (elves) heard her singing and was enchanted for years; she became his wife and Queen, since he later became King of the Sindar and was called Thingol. Together, they built a kingdom that lasted long as a refuge against evil. Melian lent Thingol great power, which she had as a Maia, and counseled him with great wisdom, so that he was a mighty and wise ruler. Luthien Tinuviel, most beautiful of all Children of Iluvatar, was their daughter. What made their marriage good? First thing that springs to mind is that it was a marriage of unequals, a Maia and an Elf. But they not only loved each other, they respected one another’s abilities. Thingol learned from Melian’s wisdom and took her counsel. She did not try to rule, but taught with wisdom, recognizing his abilities as a ruler. She did not deny her power and capabilities to try to be like him, but enhanced him and raised him up to greater heights than he could have achieved alone. They had a common goal, building their kingdom, and reached that goal together. Mutual love, respect and a goal to be reached together are the aspects I have found in studying their marriage. I would like to hear what others consider important about Melian and Thingol, then we can go on to other good marriages of Middle-earth.
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04-04-2002, 10:37 AM | #2 |
Hostess of Spirits
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The marriage between Earendil and Elwing was happy. Reasons... when they were given the choice between being mortal and being immortal he let her choose first. She chose to remain immortal and he chose the same so that they could remain together (even though it meant that he could never return to mortal lands). She also cast herself in the sea to save the Silmaril from the sons of Feanor & she was lifted up by Ulmo and flew to Earendil on his ship in the form of the bird so that they may be together.
I see this as a good marriage because it seems as though they were very much in love. |
04-04-2002, 03:48 PM | #3 |
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Ok, I'm going to name the obvious one:Celeborn and Galadriel. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] They were married for only God knows how long, and yet after thousands of years of marriage,still loved each other.Galadriel did part from Celeborn for a while, but they reunited in the Undying Lands eventually and lived happily ever after. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] (This is where everybody goes "Awwww!" [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] )
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04-04-2002, 05:16 PM | #4 |
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Aaaaawwwwwwwww! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]
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04-04-2002, 08:26 PM | #5 |
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Has anyone said Beren and Luthian yet? I thought they were pretty happy.
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04-04-2002, 09:33 PM | #6 |
Wight
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melian being a maia is also something else --she is definitely much more powerful than thingol, and much more wiser. in the instance when thingol aksed a silmaril from beren in exchange of consent for marrying luthien, melian at once knew fully well that thingol had been ensnared by the doom surrounding that holy jewel, but said nothing. i guess this shows that with the inherent disparity, there is some form of "self-restraint" or "self-regulation" if you will in their relationship without melian really compromising her empowerment. i've always believed that relationships between partners on both their terms is the best way to go.
agree beren and luthien were happy, though i've to sneak in a modifier and say there was bittersweet happiness in their marriage. --------------------------------------------- every man's life is a path to the truth -- hesse
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04-09-2002, 01:00 PM | #7 |
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Many of these happy marriages seem to have a "love at first site" beginning. Thingol & Melian, Beren & Luthien, Aragorn & Arwen. I wonder if that's part of the formula for sucess?. I also wonder if that is how J.R.R. fell in love with his wife?
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04-09-2002, 05:35 PM | #8 |
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amyrilis, check out the John and Edith: Beren and Luthien thread
As for happy marriages...Elwing and Ëarendil touched me greatly, but my vote still goes for Beren and Lúthien-their love made them the bravest of all beings. Thingol and Melian are interesting, because for all the misery they went through, one still got the sense that it was all worth it. Melian was a gift to Thingol-and sure enough, her name means "dear gift" or "gift of love" (I think...). What intrigues me is whether or not Tolkien was making a case for unequal marriages? (Arwen being of nobler stature than Aragorn, Beren being deemed unworthy for Lúthien, Melian the Maia falling for an Elf...) Because really, if you look at most unions where the wife's stature supercedes that of her husband, you often end up with a pair of embittered souls akin to the lunatics that populate Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf? I guess this is why fairy-tales are so enticing-awful convention is defied.
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04-10-2002, 12:22 PM | #9 |
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Thanks Lush! Good info there! I've read that thread before, but I guess I didn't get all the way through it.
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04-11-2002, 07:55 AM | #10 |
Princess of Skwerlz
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Love at first sight does show up often in Tolkien's writings, amyrlis - it will be interesting to look and see if it is a characteristic for successful marriages only or can also precede unsuccessful ones!
Lush, I've noticed the tendency to unequal marriages too, especially the inter-racial ones. It does seem to be the women who are marrying "down". I know of no example of an elven male marrying a human woman. We do have one example of an human-elven marriage that does not result in the elven woman losing her immortality, however - Tuor, human, marries Idril, elven, and sails to the West with her at the end of his life, after the Fall of Gondolin. He alone of mortal men becomes one of the Eldar. Was it because of their marriage or would he have been rewarded for his friendship with the Noldor even without his elven wife? I wonder...
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02-15-2003, 06:41 AM | #11 | ||
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There are still so many interesting aspects to ME marriages to be discussed – I’d like to revive this thread and its twin with the unhappy marriages. Let’s do some in-depth discussing; please don’t just list names without giving examples and/or reasons.
What got me thinking about it again were some lines in the Silmarillion, Valaquenta as well as the discussion on the “Ooh la la Lúthien” thread. First couple: Manwë and Varda Quote:
Idealistic? Certainly! But isn’t that something that many of us secretly yearn for? The other Valar marriage that I thought about is somewhat different in nature. The talents and natures of Aulë and Yavanna complement each other, but it seems to me that they are less unified. His element is the earth, and her love belongs to the growing things. They apparently do their creative work separately from one another; Aulë creates the Dwarves (in secret at first even from his wife); Yavanna counters by creating the Ents. There is a sense of rivalry between their creations. Quote:
Any comments on these two couples or other Valar marriages?
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'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...' |
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02-15-2003, 09:00 AM | #12 | ||
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Michael Martinez has just written a nice peice on Bombadil, Goldberry and the Ent/wives which some here may find interesting. I did.
here is a snippet. Quote:
Quote:
[ February 15, 2003: Message edited by: lindil ]
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02-15-2003, 09:44 AM | #13 | ||
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Interesting, Esty.
Quote:
Letter 43 features a long and revealing discourse on Tolkien’s thoughts on romantic love, chivalry and its pitfalls, male and female roles, and marriage which anyone interested in this topic should check out. Here’s just a small slice: Quote:
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02-15-2003, 11:50 AM | #14 | |
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Quote:
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02-15-2003, 11:51 AM | #15 |
Princess of Skwerlz
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Oops, Marigold - you do mean Faramir and Éowyn, don't you?!
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'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...' |
02-15-2003, 11:38 PM | #16 |
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Oh, dear. I knew that sounded wrong, but I couldn't quite figure out why [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] ...I think I'll go bang my head against the wall now [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img].
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02-16-2003, 06:50 PM | #17 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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I think two of the greatest were Luthien and Beren, And Arwen and Aragorn because Luthien and Arwen both gave up there immortality to be with the person they loved. There you can see that they loved Beren and Aragorn enough to die as long as they are with them. That shows how strong and powerful there love was.
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02-17-2003, 09:17 AM | #18 |
Cryptic Aura
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That's quite a selective quotation there, Mr. Underhill, from Letter 43. What, no shipwreck? Or Tolkien's sense of 'real soul-mate'?
Bethberry
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02-17-2003, 09:28 AM | #19 |
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Indeed, Bb, you can take your pick of the wealth of applicable material (you left out "Nearly all marriages, even happy ones, are mistakes..."). The letter is too wide ranging to adequately summarize, which is why I gave the ref and a mere "teaser" instead. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]
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02-17-2003, 10:25 AM | #20 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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In Eowyn and Faramir's relationship, it seems to me that the woman has once again "married down" in terms of her having what she thought she didn't want. Marrying down seems to a theme aroung Middle Earth marriage. Hmmm.
I'll have to agree that Manwe and Varda worked together as a team, and that Yavanna and Aule had sort of conflict, but that didn't get in the way of their relationship.
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02-17-2003, 12:02 PM | #21 | |
Cryptic Aura
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Estelyn and Underhill,
Indeed, I think that is probably the most telling phrase, ""Nearly all marriages, even happy ones, are mistakes... " in terms of Tolkien's idea of "this long defeat." His comments on courtly love I think are interesting if considered in light of Arwen and Aragorn. Quote:
Bethberry [ February 17, 2003: Message edited by: Bethberry ]
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02-17-2003, 03:18 PM | #22 |
Pile O'Bones
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In response to Esty's idea about the valar and their marriages: Tolkien uses a very common aspect of mythology when setting up these relationships, that of interconnected, but different, natural elements being connected by the personification of a marriage. The example of Aule and Yavanna is a perfect one. Earth and flora are inextricably linked. The earth provides a place for the flora to flourish and the roots of the flora protect the earth. At the same time, the movement of earth destroys flora and flora sap the nutrients from the earth. The relationship between Yavanna and Aule is an almost perfect corollary.
In response to the comments about unequal marriages: Tolkien seems, to me, to be stating that men, through their accomplishments, can earn the worthiness to wed above their station. The only real exception to this is Melian and Thingol.
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02-19-2003, 04:52 AM | #23 | ||
Princess of Skwerlz
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As far as I’ve been able to find, the only marriage of two Maiar that is mentioned by Tolkien is that of Ossë and Uinen. (If anyone can give another reference, I’d be delighted.) They share a common task, the rule of the seas, but have greatly diverging personalities. Ossë delights in wind, storm and the roaring waves. There is an innate wildness in him that made him susceptible to temptation by Melkor. He is dangerous, even after he repented.
Uinen’s role is that of a restraining, gentling influence on her husband. She is revered by mariners, especially by the Númenóreans, Quote:
Quote:
Isn’t it interesting that Tolkien doesn’t have a cookie-cutter type pattern for marriage? There are all kinds of combinations of personalities there, and the more closely I look, the more fascinating it gets.
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02-19-2003, 07:07 AM | #24 |
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Something about Aule&Yavanna: I think their marriage was very happy indeed, especially sice they weren´t always agreeing. It´s wierd that Tolkien chooses Valar-basically Gods- to show us a very human aspect of love. I mean, can you imagine Beren and Lúthien arguing over anything? Oh please. But love without arguments is so boring, in a way. The qoute you gave about Aule and Yavanna reminds me of a sweet, half-fun, half- serious thing, the sort of the thing that ends with a laugh and a kiss. My friend and her boyfiend do stuff like that all the time and they´re perfectly happy- since almost 7 months now! Aule&Yavanna stand up to each other, they may even fight, BUT: without the fighting, you also miss the sweet making-it-up!
Has anyone mentioned Sam&Rosie yet? Because they´re my second-favourite-couple, and I really think they are so cute! Or are we only doing Sil/UT?
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02-19-2003, 07:26 AM | #25 | ||
Princess of Skwerlz
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The title of this thread restricts us to Middle-earth; other than that, no holds barred! We haven't discussed Sam and Rosie yet - how about some specifics there?
I agree, Manardariel - Yavanna and Aulë's marriage is happy; they're just more independent of each other. I'm sure they have fun kissing and making up! [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] The point is, as you said, they Quote:
Quote:
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06-08-2003, 02:51 PM | #26 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Revising this tread....
So, Sam and Rosie. Yes, they were such a wonderful couple. What I love about that one is it shows how very, very easy love can be. Without any giving-up-immortality, or killing-off-nazguls. It´s just a very sweet, very normal "boy meets girl" thingy. Sam and Rosie are both so down to earth, it makes one very jealous. But there´s also an aspect Tolkien seemed to like in Marriage aspects: waiting. Rosie had to wait for Sam, Arwen for Aragorn... I guess it´s another link to those old myths, where the guys go out killing off dragons to marry their loves. It actually reminds me of the Oddysee, which does not fit, but I think it´s true! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]
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06-08-2003, 04:16 PM | #27 |
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Some happy marriages ended in tragedy though, such as Denethor and Finduilas. Denethor loved her, that is clear, and most likely she loved him back, but they couldn't be happy. So is Tolkien saying that sometimes, love just isn't enough? Or is it a sign of the evil growing over the world that is so overbearing it can get in the way?
[ June 08, 2003: Message edited by: Lyra Greenleaf ]
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06-08-2003, 04:26 PM | #28 |
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I would also like to bring up the marriage of Hurin and Morwen.
This pairing does not at first look promising. The couple are very different in character, they come from different Houses, they live through the most appalling tragedy, even before the Nirnaeth. Morwen was a hard, reserved woman, Hurin had a more open heart, and yet their marriage was clearly trusting, with a great deal of mutual love and devotion.
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06-10-2003, 11:45 AM | #29 | |
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Quote:
Eowyn was in love with Aragorn, but it wasn´t the MAN she loved here, it was the idea. In Faramir, she loved the man, his caring, his gentleness, and his loved for her. So she didn´t "marry down" to her wishes. On the contrary, I´d say she "married up". Instead of a man she hardly knew, and who´d hurt her; she chose a man she knew, and who loved and apprechiated her. Check out this thread on the subject.
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06-16-2003, 06:51 PM | #30 | |
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I'm a particular fan of Sam and Rosie's marriage. In my opinion, we get the best look at their marriage (before, during, and after) and can understand it and enjoy it the most.
(all quotes and information taken from Return of the King - scouring of the shire, the grey havens, and appendix B) Rosie loved Sam before the quest but refrained from manipulating Sam into staying. She could have told Sam that if he wanted her, he would have to stay put. But she didn't. Sam had not committed himself to her and Rosie was willing to let Sam do what he thought he had to do without her manipulating him out of her own desires. Likewise, Sam put off his own interest in Rosie for the higher good. Yes, he loved Rosie and could have stayed with her. But the two wouldn't have lasted long. Frodo would have been caught somewhere along the road to Mt. Doom and Sauron's rule would have soon killed Rosie and Sam, and Sam would have died knowing that he could have tried to help but didn't. Estelyn Telcontar said (referring to another marriage) Quote:
When Sam returns to the Shire, his first words (ignoring the situation at hand) to Mr. Cotton are: "What about Mrs. Cotton and Rosie?" said Sam. "It isn't safe yet for them to be left all alone." Following that and with Farmer Cotton's blessing, Sam rushed to the house where Rosie was at and greeted both Mrs. Cotton and Rosie. He asked them how they both were doing and thus expressed interest in their welfare. They were worth his time, attention, and protection. The dialogue closes after Rosie tells Sam to rush back after he's done. "I think you look fine, Sam," she said. "Go on now! But take care of yourself, and come straight back as soon as you have settled the ruffians." Rosie was proud of Sam's exploits and she loved him and cared for him. The Cottons housed Sam until Bag End was ready. When everything finally settled down, Sam and Rosie married after having been kept apart for quite some time. And from the date of their first child, it appears Sam and Rosie waited to tie the knot, first. They had enough love and respect for the other's worth to hold out for the other alone and for matrimony. And Sam truly loved Rose. He complimented her even when she was not around. His love for her moved him to speak about her reverently no matter who he was with. When speaking of his new daughter, Sam could not help but sing praises of his wife. "as pretty a maidchild as any one could hope for, taking after Rose more than me, luckily." Finally, after Rose died, Sam went to the Grey Havens. He stayed in Middle Earth only as long as she was alive. She was his reason to live. In my opinion, Sam and Rosie had it down. Their marriage was a beautiful one.
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06-24-2003, 09:35 PM | #31 |
Wight
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IMHO, one of the happiest marraiges in Middle Earth was between Finwe and Miriel, his first wife. They had something very special between them, and it's a real shame that she died so early. He was likely very happy with his second wife Indis, but "The shadow of Miriel was always there". He took great interest in Feanor, since he was the only living reminder of Miriel.
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06-26-2003, 09:58 AM | #32 |
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Were there ever any UNHAPPY marriages?
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06-26-2003, 10:46 AM | #33 |
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Plenty, Meneltarmacil. [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img] See the sister thread to this one: Marriage in Middle-earth II (unhappy).
[ June 28, 2003: Message edited by: The Saucepan Man ]
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06-26-2003, 06:56 PM | #34 |
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I think that the reason Tolkien has so many women in his stories "marrying down" and having to wait for a long time for their spouses, or beloveds, is that the same thing happened to him and his wife. Edith Bratt (who later became his wife) was slightly more well-to-do than Tolkien, who was still a student and an orphan.
When the Professor was sent overseas as a soldier in the Lancashire Fusiliers, Edith had to wait for him to come back, so that they could be a "real couple." I think those experiences carried over into the stories that he wrote, since they were such important factors in his life.
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06-27-2003, 04:02 AM | #35 |
Mischievous Candle
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have you mentioned Tom and Goldberry?from my point of wiev it's a weird but happy marriage!Goldberry was quite a mysterious character but Tom obviously adored his wife.
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06-27-2003, 06:36 AM | #36 |
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Check lindil's above post for the link to an article about Tom, Goldberry and the Ents/Entwives - interesting to read!
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