The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum


Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page

Go Back   The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum > Middle-Earth Discussions > The Books
User Name
Password
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 01-22-2016, 06:34 PM   #1
Boromir88
Laconic Loreman
 
Boromir88's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: USA
Posts: 7,559
Boromir88 is wading through the Dead Marshes.Boromir88 is wading through the Dead Marshes.Boromir88 is wading through the Dead Marshes.Boromir88 is wading through the Dead Marshes.Boromir88 is wading through the Dead Marshes.Boromir88 is wading through the Dead Marshes.
Send a message via AIM to Boromir88 Send a message via MSN to Boromir88
There and Back Again

I decided to read The Hobbit again and I don't understand why it gets pushed aside as a story. The Lord of the Rings is a grander tale and a larger scale, which might make TH look like a "little brother" by comparison. But the two stories follow quite a similar pattern and structure, which both makes them great stories on their own.

When reading TH again, I truly realized what makes the story (and LOTR does as well) succeed to me. They're both simply stories of establishing a sense of "home," a character is thrust into a world of strange and mysterious lands, and then the character returns home.

To succeed every part of the story must be told and must be convincing. Even though The Shire is a strange fantasy land to the readers, Tolkien must make us feel at home. Frodo mentions The Shire being a "foothold," if he knows home lies safe behind he can pursue this quest to destroy the Ring and save it. The Shire must make us feel at home, just as it's a foothold for Bilbo and Frodo. Then both hobbits (and the readers) get pulled into unfamiliar and strange lands. The characters we encounter are mysterious, some are frightening, the strange is meant to be shocking, frightening, thrilling. We're certainly not "at home" anymore.

The story can't end with the victory at the battle and Bilbo in Erebor. To Tolkien, the return home seems just as important in completing the story. It's why he says in The Foreward to LOTR, the Scouring was an "essential part of the plot, foreseen from the outset." We have to come full circle, and no matter how many times you read either story, it's bitter-sweet. Bilbo and Frodo set out from The Shire, leave home and long to return there, but they return changed and see The Shire in a different light. Tolkien doesn't need to change The Shire (although in LOTR it is quite a different Shire, because of Saruman), the return to home has to be perceived differently because Bilbo and Frodo have changed.
__________________
Fenris Penguin
Boromir88 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2016, 09:21 AM   #2
Mithadan
Spirit of Mist
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Tol Eressea
Posts: 3,310
Mithadan is a guest at the Prancing Pony.Mithadan is a guest at the Prancing Pony.
Quote:
and then the character returns home.
But "home" is not the same and can never be entirely made what it once was. This reminds me of the Odyssey.
__________________
Beleriand, Beleriand,
the borders of the Elven-land.
Mithadan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2016, 10:19 AM   #3
Inziladun
Gruesome Spectre
 
Inziladun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Heaven's doorstep
Posts: 8,058
Inziladun is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Inziladun is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Inziladun is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Inziladun is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Inziladun is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mithadan View Post
But "home" is not the same and can never be entirely made what it once was. This reminds me of the Odyssey.
"Home" can seen unchanged if the person coming back is unchanged as well, but as noted, neither Bilbo nor Frodo were the same person as when they left.

Bilbo was certainly the less negatively affected by his experiences, so we see him living in apparent contentment for many years after his return. The Ring's effects on him were very gradual.
__________________
Music alone proves the existence of God.
Inziladun is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2016, 02:30 PM   #4
Boromir88
Laconic Loreman
 
Boromir88's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: USA
Posts: 7,559
Boromir88 is wading through the Dead Marshes.Boromir88 is wading through the Dead Marshes.Boromir88 is wading through the Dead Marshes.Boromir88 is wading through the Dead Marshes.Boromir88 is wading through the Dead Marshes.Boromir88 is wading through the Dead Marshes.
Send a message via AIM to Boromir88 Send a message via MSN to Boromir88
Quote:
Originally Posted by Inziladun View Post
Bilbo was certainly the less negatively affected by his experiences, so we see him living in apparent contentment for many years after his return. The Ring's effects on him were very gradual.
Frodo certainly got the worst of it. I'm paraphrasing but he says something along the lines of "The Shire has been saved, but not for me." Although, I think Bilbo's changed too, he just doesn't seem to care. The end of The Hobbit says Bilbo lost more than his possessions after he returned, he lost his respectability, he just didn't really care. The Bilbo who left Bag End cared about respectability, just the adventurous Tookishness won the internal battle. I also have to think returning to find out he's presumed dead and in the middle of his stuff being auctioned had to be hard on him. I'm not sure how much more he felt The Shire was "home" after that...the only thing that apparently kept him in Bag End for so long was for Frodo to come of age so he can be named his heir.

I wonder if any of the hobbits who left and came back ever felt the same way about The Shire, as they felt before leaving it. Sam departs into the West after Rosie dies. In their later years Merry goes to rejoin Eomer and Pippin goes to Gondor and gets buried next to Aragorn. None of them died nor buried in The Shire.
__________________
Fenris Penguin
Boromir88 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2016, 02:55 PM   #5
Inziladun
Gruesome Spectre
 
Inziladun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Heaven's doorstep
Posts: 8,058
Inziladun is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Inziladun is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Inziladun is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Inziladun is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Inziladun is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boromir88 View Post
I wonder if any of the hobbits who left and came back ever felt the same way about The Shire, as they felt before leaving it. Sam departs into the West after Rosie dies. In their later years Merry goes to rejoin Eomer and Pippin goes to Gondor and gets buried next to Aragorn. None of them died nor buried in The Shire.
I think the Shire had changed for Sam as a result of his journey with Frodo, his observation of the deep sacrifice Frodo had made to save it, and Sam's own struggle against the lure of the Ring.

With Merry and Pippin maybe, their own sense of 'growth' was so closely intertwined with the experiences they'd had in the service of Rohan and Gondor that they felt dying in the place of their greatest achievements was only right.
__________________
Music alone proves the existence of God.
Inziladun is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2016, 05:25 PM   #6
Formendacil
Dead Serious
 
Formendacil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Perched on Thangorodrim's towers.
Posts: 3,346
Formendacil is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Formendacil is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Formendacil is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Formendacil is lost in the dark paths of Moria.
Send a message via AIM to Formendacil Send a message via MSN to Formendacil
The difference in the treatment of "home" is an interesting point of comparison for the two tales. Certainly, the hero in each tale returns home a different person, but the effects upon home itself are different.

In The Hobbit, Bilbo returns to the Shire to find it virtually unchanged--yes, Messrs Grubb, Grubb, and Burrowes attempt to auction off his belongings aside, Bag End and Bilbo's place in it are left the same at the end of the story as the beginning. In keeping with the smaller ambitions of The Hobbit, Bilbo's self-change allows him to appreciate what he has (note all the moments of longing for the simple comforts of Bag End).

In The Lord of the Rings, Frodo returns to find the Shire different and one of the "morals of the story" (to use that hackneyed term) is that you can't go home. "I left to save the Shire, Sam, and it has been saved--but not for me" to paraphrase what Frodo says--is made explicit. After a series of denouements as Frodo returns from Gondor to Rivendell to Bree, a first time reader is gulled into thinking that the final return to the Shire will be one last stage in this drawn out process of "falling back asleep"--a true "Back Again"--only to abruptly encounter "The Scouring of the Shire." Everything about the Shire--about home--is different, because time hasn't stopped passing in the heroes' absences and even as the hobbits have been changing, the Shire has been changing.

In The Hobbit, home is the hope that sustains Bilbo; in The Lord of the Rings, Frodo discovers that home isn't enough to sustain him: unlike the visions of it that keep Bilbo going, Frodo discovers that the constancy of home is an illusion. But that constancy he sought in returning to the Shire isn't, despite that, presented by Tolkien as an impossibility. Instead of finding it in his real home, Frodo is able to find healing in Elvenhome. Put in more "theological" terms, one might say that the longing for earthly comfort and belonging is not enough, but it does point the way towards a true comfort and belonging that is satisfied beyond.

Good topic!
__________________
I prefer history, true or feigned.
Formendacil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2016, 05:43 PM   #7
Sardy
Wight
 
Sardy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Hudson Valley, NY
Posts: 111
Sardy has just left Hobbiton.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boromir88 View Post
I think Bilbo's changed too, he just doesn't seem to care. The end of The Hobbit says Bilbo lost more than his possessions after he returned, he lost his respectability, he just didn't really care.
I think it's not so much that Bilbo "didn't care", as it is that while both he and Frodo were changed by their travels, Bilbo was changed for the better while Frodo was changed in a negative way. Bilbo returned having grown spiritually and emotionally, bringing back with him a wealth of experience and a deep pool of (mostly) positive memories - he could live his life now in the Shire content: his (at first unadmitted) desire for travel and adventure had been appeased, and he was secure in the knowledge that one day he could and would set out again to revisit the wondrous places of his travels. He was able to balance the "small town" comfort of the Shire withe a deep first-hand knowledge that the world is a vast and mysterious place full of wonders...

On the contrary, Frodo's experience was wrought with unbearable responsibility, tragedy, desperation and pain. The Middle-earth that he experienced was not one of wonder so much as danger. His return to the safety and complacency of the Shire, of "home" was tempered and tainted with the knowledge and experience he'd gained: unlike the sense of wonder and longing Bilbo gained, Frodo was filled with a despairing and debilitating knowledge that the world is a cruel and dangerous place, where true evil exists, and the balance of good and peace and safety hang precariously by a thread... As such, he could never truly feel safe or at ease anywhere again. Except perhaps (one would hope) in Valinor.
__________________
www.scottchristiancarr.com
They passed slowly, and the hobbits could see the starlight glimmering on their hair and in their eyes.
Sardy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2016, 06:23 PM   #8
Galadriel55
Blossom of Dwimordene
 
Galadriel55's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The realm of forgotten words
Posts: 10,299
Galadriel55 is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Galadriel55 is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Galadriel55 is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Galadriel55 is lost in the dark paths of Moria.
Very interesting thread, and very interesting ideas!

As I was reading this thread, it occurred to me that an additional difference between Bilbo's and Frodo's returns is their feeling of responsibility. Bilbo never felt responsible for the world, or for the Shire more specifically. Meanwhile, Frodo knows full well the gravity of his mission - it's not just adventure for him - and it weighs down on him, especially because he transposes that sense of responsibility onto his home. He goes through the entire journey in part to save the Shire, to keep it whole.

Of course, that's a perilous path to take just on its own. If your beacon of light is your memory of a person or place, coming back to realize that it (or you) changed in your absence and there's no going back to the way it was before is harsh. But in Frodo's case, there's the added sense of responsibility. He felt it was his duty to keep the Shire safe and hobbitishly unconcerned about the greater troubles of the world. He came back to find that he failed on that count, and he failed to keep the Shire from "growing up" character-wise (becoming worldly-wise?) even when all the repairs were finished. In a way, the Shire as a whole developed during that year like Bilbo during his trip. The Shire changed too, not just Frodo.

New thoughts are popping into my head, and I realize I'm falling a bit off my original track with them. The thought I wanted to put out is that Frodo feels responsible (and guilty) for the change that happened in the Shire both physically and character-wise. Bilbo doesn't feel the responsibility for the Shire, and it doesn't change much during his journey; it's only him that changes. He just looks at the same Shire with different eyes - the things that used to matter to him stop mattering so much. But for Frodo, the biggest pain is that he wants to go back to the memory of his peaceful life before the Ring, filled with small earthly concerns, and he can't. So The Hobbit ends up bitter-sweet, but positive, slightly "grown up", but LOTR ends up sad and nostalgic.
__________________
You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera
Galadriel55 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2016, 09:40 AM   #9
Marlowe221
Pile O'Bones
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 18
Marlowe221 has just left Hobbiton.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boromir88 View Post
I wonder if any of the hobbits who left and came back ever felt the same way about The Shire, as they felt before leaving it. Sam departs into the West after Rosie dies. In their later years Merry goes to rejoin Eomer and Pippin goes to Gondor and gets buried next to Aragorn. None of them died nor buried in The Shire.
I arise from my chronic lurking once more!

I have not read this entire thread yet (I will!) but I wanted to comment on this particular point while the thought was fresh in my mind.

To paraphrase the ancient Greek philosopher Heraclitus, "No man ever steps in the same river twice. It is not the same river and he is not the same man." From what little of his writings have survived it appears that Heraclitus's philosophy was based on the idea that everything is changing all the time - that all is in flux - in both the spiritual and the physical sense.

With that in mind, one could argue that the Hobbits are changing too, just like everything else. So is the Shire. When a Hobbit stays in the Shire, he changes along with it; the changes are not as noticeable. But when a Hobbit spends significant time outside of the Shire and having a lot of non-typical (for a Hobbit) experiences/adventures, the course of his changing diverges from that of the home he left behind. The Shire will not be the same when he gets back. And neither will he.

It is much like being a kid and your grandmother making a big fuss over how much you've grown since she saw you last summer. You have been growing the whole time, of course, but have not noticed it since the change was so gradual and slow. Your grandmother does not perceive the change in quite the same way...

Great thread.
Marlowe221 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:49 PM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.