Ring wraiths vs. Balrogs

[Heen-1]

Who would win?

We know that balrogs are maia (they're real name is valaraukar, i think) but ringwriaths are great kings of the numenoreans possesed by the 9 rings (which makes them super powerful) under the dominion of sauron and the one ring...who would win?

right now, i'd say a balrog would beat a ringwraith.

[obloquy]

this is a mad stupid question

^^^ this is a way to lose posting privileges ^^
- The Barrow-Wight -

[ June 27, 2002: Message edited by: The Barrow-Wight ]

[the real findorfin]

thats rude!

The Balrogs would woop *** ...butt..tooshie.

Now Sauron vs Balrog, that would be more even! We know this because sauron couldn't control the Balrog in Moria.

[MallornLeaf]

First of all, I don't think they'd ever fight, cuz they are somewhat on the same team. *think back to Melkor and all his servants. some were Balrogs, one was Sauron.* Ringwraiths were servants of a servant of Melkor (Sauron), and Balrogs were actual servants of him. So, yes, I'd say that Sauron and balrogs would be more equal fighting. Especially, as ringwraiths are just men with cool rings, whereas balrogs are Maia

[the real findorfin]

thanks 4 the agreement.
i did a post like this a while ago

the competitors
Melkor, Sauron, Balrog, Ring wraith tag team, dragon, orc in a real bad mood.

who would get knocked out first, second, third, etc

Any suggestions

[Thingol]

Gandalf said that not even Aragorn and Glorfindel together could stand against the nine Ringwraiths assembled under their fell chieftain. Glorfindel killed a Balrog, you do the math. And this is in the wilderness, far away from Mordor, without Sauron having possession of the One Ring. Gandalf said that if Sauron had regained the Ring, the Ringwraiths would have become much more powerful (scary to think what they were like back in the Second Age). In a fight between a Balrog and the nine Ringwraiths, my money's on the Ringwraiths.

[ June 11, 2002: Message edited by: Thingol ]

[Kuruharan]

Thingol, why is it we are drawn to threads about Balrogs like moths to a flame?

Does this mean that you think that a Ringwraith could beat a Dragon? [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[Tarthang]

I think the Balrog would beat a Nazgul (with the possible exception of the Witch-king of Angmar) in a one on one battle.

BTW Mallornleaf, yes Balrogs were Maia, so was Sauron, when you stop to think about, and as a lietenant of Morgoth, a very powerful Maia.

[Thingol]

The main weapon of the Nazgul was terror, I'm not really sure to what extent the Dragons were capable of fear. On the flip side I am not really sure if fire could kill the Nazgul since water wouldn't do the trick. The Nazgul are pretty myterious, but I think they would have a pretty good shot of cowing the Dragon, both with terror and on a spiritual/magical level. I'd also have to say that the Nazgul would have a better than average chance of getting under the dragon and stabbing it. (there are nine of them after all) [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[ June 11, 2002: Message edited by: Thingol ]

[TarElendil]

i dont think a Balrog could defeat any of the Nazgul. Remember that many balrogs were slain in the defense of gondolin. Gothmog himself single handedly by Ecthelion. The nazgul wouldnt have been hurt by the maces,whips, or any other weapons of the Balrogs. The nazgul are exactly what theyre called- wraiths. I dont see how a balrog could defeat any nazgul.

[Jessica Jade]

I, too, wonder if large amounts of fire could kill, or at least temporarily disable, a Nazgûl. Didn't it say somewhere in Fellowship that they are afraid of fire? (like when they were at Amon Sûl and Aragorn made a fire, saying that it would protect them from the Wraiths).

The Nazgul are pretty myterious, but I think they would have a pretty good shot of cowing the Dragon, both with terror and on a spiritual/magical level.

I agree! I've always thought the Nazgûl are fascinating. Their most deadly weapon is, undoubtedly, fear. And fear is very powerful. As it is said in F. Herbert's Dune, "Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little death that brings total obliteration." The Nazgûl were able to make people frightened beyond belief by calling out to eachother with their chilling, deadly voices. With a weapon, such as this, they did not need to fight with swords, cannons, etc, because when people are afraid they don't want to fight-- if their fear conquers them, then their ability to rationalize is eradicated, they want nothing but to cower down and hide, like they people of Minas Tirith did in The Battle of the Pelennor Fields.

However, since Balrogs are Maiar, I seriously doubt that the Nazgûl had the capacity or capability of terrifying the them beyond their wits. Balrogs are just inherently much more powerful. Even though they Nazgûl were posessed by Sauron, a very powerful Maia, they were only servants to him, as Sauron was to Morgoth...which means that their power was only a fraction of their master's. Also, remember what Gandalf said about the Ring at the beginning of Fellowship, (can't remember the exact quote right now)- about how the ring cannot truly create-it gives power, but only according to the posessers' native strength and force of will. So don't forget that the Nazgûl are merely ruined men, posessed, but still just men. Even with their chief weapon being sheer, bone-chilling terror, They cannot possibly overcome a Maia.

As for Sauron vs. a Balrog--that would be interesting! I think that Sauron might win out...he was the most powerful of all Morgoth's servants, right? (Although I'm sure Sauron could take the form of a Balrog if he so desired to). For the Balrog in Moria...he probably did not know that it was there. Remember when Gandalf was telling the story of his fall in Moria, and how he ran through those dark passages...he mentioned that the experience was beyond words, and that there were many evil creatures dwelling at the roots of the earth..."even Sauron knows them not, for they were there before he." (something to the effect of that). Even if he knew the Balrog existed, he had no reason to rouse it, because it could serve as a guard of moria, just as Shelob guarded the pass of Cirith Ungol.

[ June 11, 2002: Message edited by: Jessica Jade ]

[Heen-1]

well, yea sauron COULD have taken the form of a balrog, but after he fell into the great chasm when numenore was destroyed he couldnt anymore.

and sauron wasnt powerful enough to be able to make the balrog serve him, not without the one ring.

and if he did, it would be like enslaving his own race sine both he and the balrog are maiar.

[TarElendil]

yes, the nazgul inspired much terror. but you say it as if it was their one and only weapon. In my opinion the nazgul feared fire,as did other servants of morgoth and sauron, because of the Maia Arien who guided the sun. She herself was a spirit of fire, but one who wasnt corrupted to the service of Morgoth. I would think the nazgul would fear the fire of the balrogs less. The nazgul could weild weapons. The balrogs' weapons couldnt harm them, save fire.

[Kuruharan]

For some reason I get the feeling that someone (Thingol) is trying to get my goat.

The nazgul wouldnt have been hurt by the maces,whips, or any other weapons of the Balrogs.

The Balrogs might not be able to destroy their spirits, but I think they could destroy their forms.

However, since Balrogs are Maiar, I seriously doubt that the Nazgûl had the capacity or capability of terrifying the them beyond their wits. Balrogs are just inherently much more powerful.

So don't forget that the Nazgûl are merely ruined men, posessed, but still just men.

Bingo! There is no way the enslaved shade of a human mortal would be able to defeat a powerful spirit that had been in existance since before the beginning of time.

Even with their chief weapon being sheer, bone-chilling terror, They cannot possibly overcome a Maia.

Example: Gandalf (also Maia) stood off all Nine at once, alone, at night, when their power was greatest.
And a Balrog killed him. So, match goes to the Balrogs.

[TarElendil]

their power was NOT at their greatest. Sauron did NOT have the Ring. Look for the quote from LoTR where it says they would be far more great and terrible if sauron had the ring.

[Kuruharan]

Umm, yes, but I find that argument unimpressive.

It is true that Sauron in the Second Age, at the height of his power, was greater than Morgoth when he was at the lowest point in his power. However, Morgoth corrupted (and I would say tampered with, but that is debateable) the Balrogs when he was at his peak. They were immensely powerful with their own native strength (and with the power of Morgoth that he put into them, Thingol [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]) Morgoth's minions seemed to have a more independent relationship with him, i.e. they were able to survive his fall. The Ringwraiths were chained to Sauron, and they stood and fell by him. This was what prevented their spirits from going to Mandos, but their spirits would be indestructable for the Balrogs in any case. But the forms that the Nazgul wore could be destroyed, and I think a spirit that was only slighly less powerful than Sauron in origin would be able to overcome their terror and destroy the Ringwraith's bodies, no matter how great and powerful Sauron had become.

[TarElendil]

The Nazgul did not have a form. They were invisible. And they werent "mere men." They were Kings with the blood of Numenor. yes, Balrogs were Maia, but i still dont see why you think a Nazgul could not kill a Balrog. If Ecthelion did, i dont see how there isnt the possibility that the witch-king couldnt.

[Reginald Hill]

I know that this is a hard topic but... did Balrogs have wings? I read a few other discussions on this and I still haven't gotten a clear answer. I always thought that a Balrog were spirit things and were made of smoke stuff. I'm pretty sure that any wings that they had couldn't hold them up, but I could be wrong.

[Reginald Hill]

would the fighting nazgul be on there flying steeds? cuz if they were and balrogs can't fly that would be a big advantage for the nazgul.

[TarElendil]

Balrogs having wings has been much debated. It is for sure that they cant fly though, for they rode to Gondolin on the backs of dragon like creatures. I believe that they had wings, but it was made up of more shadow and fire than flesh. Read the description of the Balrog in LoTR. The balrog was wreathed in shadow and flame.

[Elrian]

Balrogs having wings has been much debated. It is for sure that they cant fly though, for they rode to Gondolin on the backs of dragon like creatures.

No, that is not for sure and is still being debated. When Morgoth and Ungoliant returned from Valinor and Ungoliant started to attack Morgoth for the Silmarils, The Balrogs "Arose (from Angband) and passed over Hithlum.

The Nazgul did not have a form. They were invisible. And they werent "mere men." They were Kings with the blood of Numenor

3 were Black Numenoreans, some were Easterings. The had been kings an sorcerers.

The balrog was wreathed in shadow and flame.

Being in a not so well lit cave could have attributed to that.

[ June 12, 2002: Message edited by: Elrian ]

[TarElendil]

left out the easterlinges, sorry:P
There is no hard evidence in any text of Tolkien that says Balrogs could fly. I would think that if they could fly, that the Balrog Glorfindel battled would fly back up after he fell off the cliff. Or even the Balrog in Moria.

[the real findorfin]

Sauron was able to change form in the 1st age but were balrogs. If not why not?

and once again I ask how come Ecthelion can kill Gothmog but Gandalf (even a diminshed gandalf)loses to a balrog. The only reason he stops him is because he falls off a bridge.

This means Ecthelion would beat Gandalf....no way!!


Wot about Ecthelion vs the Witch King?

[TheBlackRider]

Put yourself in a balrog's shoes. They probly can fly. But try beign a very heavy object and flyign for a sport. Teh probly only flew sometimes. As for when the Moria oen fell off a cliff ti was almost dead already. It was 2 tired to heave itself back up. Nwo for a test.....Run 500 hundred miles then jump off a cliff.....and try to climb it again.

It just dosnt work!!!!!

The balrog can fly and it does hav ewings!!!!

[Reginald Hill]

Thanks for answering my question TarElendil! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] I am just re-reading LoTR and I've forgotten a lot about it! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[Elrian]

left out the easterlinges, sorry:P
There is no hard evidence in any text of Tolkien that says Balrogs could fly. I would think that if they could fly, that the Balrog Glorfindel battled would fly back up after he fell off the cliff. Or even the Balrog in Moria

The Balrog in Moria had no room to gain the momentum to fly if his wings as Tolkien said streched from wall to wall in the cavern, in the chasm it fell into there would be less room. When Glorfindel battled the Balrog, didn't Glorfindel fall with the Balrog? Preventing it possibly from taking flight, and or wounding it thereby making flight impossible, or was there enough room for it to fly to begin with?
Balrogs were Maia like Sauron, and sauron neither sailed (it would have burned), nor swam (He would not still be so hot during the Last Alliance to burn Gil-galad and melt his spear) off Numenor after it's destruction, he flew. He could also fly during the First Age as a vampire bat. Sauron and the Balrogs didn't have a restriction of old men forms like the Istari did. If Sauron as a Maia could fly att will, so could a Balrog. Sauron didn't always fly either, but he could [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]

[ June 12, 2002: Message edited by: Elrian ]

[TarElendil]

Sauron did not fly from Numenor. He had not developed a new body yet. His SPIRIT fled to Middle-earth. In one of tolkien's letters it says that saurons body was destroyed in the downfall of numenor and his spirit fled,with the ring, to Middle-earth.

[TarElendil]

If Sauron as a Maia could fly att will, so could a Balrog.

some Maia are far more poweful than others. Its a possibility that the balrogs couldnt change form.

[Thingol]

It quite explicitly says that both Glorfindel and Aragorn could not have overcome all of the Nine grouped together. Now Glorfindel killed a Balrog. To me this indicates pretty clearly that all nine of the Nazgul could kill a Balrog. As for Ecthellion vs. The Balrog; Tolkien stated that Glorfindel's slaying of a Balrog was one of the greatest acts of the eldar and that Elves of the calliber of Ecthellion and Glorfindel were exceptionallt rare. Also, at least one Balrog did flee from the War of Wrath, not exactly a brave thing to do. It is entirely possible for a Balrog to be slain by beings of great spiritual/magical power such as Glorfindel, Ecthellion, or the Nazgul. Even if terror would not work on the Balrog that would not mean that it could not be defeated. The power of the 9 rings greatly enhanced the powers of the men who wore them. With the 9 rings I doubt that their power was any less than that of an incarnated Maia, such as a Balrog. And as I've said Gandalf stated that Glorfindel and Aragorn together could not stand against all of the nine. In adition it says in the Unfinished Tales that the rangers guarding the area around the Shire were driven off or slain with the comming of the Witch King of Angmar, and even if their captain, Aragorn, had been there they probably wouldn't have been up to the task of stopping him. Pretty convicing evidence to me.

[ June 12, 2002: Message edited by: Thingol ]

[Elrian]

Sauron did not fly from Numenor. He had not developed a new body yet. His SPIRIT fled to Middle-earth.

And how could it have done that if it didn't fly???? all Maia are spirit creatures.

If Balrogs couldn't fly then why did the pass over Hithlum and not through it??? They flew.

[TarElendil]

theres a difference. saurons SPIRIT went over the sea to middle-earth. after his body was destroyed in numenor he could take one form only. That of a tall and dark lord. As said earlier the heatt of sauron killed gil-galad.

and the balrogs were in a physical form. theres a difference, if you do not know, in having a physical form and being a mere spirit.

[ June 12, 2002: Message edited by: TarElendil ]

[Elrian]

saurons SPIRIT went over the sea to middle-earth. after his body was destroyed in numenor he could take one form only

Maia are SPIRIT creatures. He could not take fair form again, not just one form.
Case closed.

[TarElendil]

No, he could ONLY take that form from thereon. All men and elves are also "spirit creatures" as you call them. No the "case" isnt closed.
what exactly are you trying to get at? maia are spirit creatures and sauron couldnt take fair form again? in what way is that suppose to relate to the topic?i say again "No, he could ONLY take that form from thereon."

[Thingol]

I don't want to get into a Balrog wing debate, but I seem to remember a post a while back citing dozens of instances of the phrase "passed over" being used on creatures that clearly could not fly. The fea of any creature is indestructible, and not bound by the physical world. So yes, the Balrogs in their original state were capable of "flight." All Maia are spirit creatures, but not all Maia incarnated themselves into a single body. Once a Maia incanates itself, like the Balrogs did, it loses much of its former powers. Unless the Balrogs, in their incarnated form, had wings that were more than just shadows, they would not have been able to fly. Tolkien explicity stated that the Balrogs had incarnated themselves into a single body and were incapble of changing it. Sauron on the other hand still retained the ability to shift forms. Elrian is correct, just because Sauron could not take on another fair form, does not necassarily mean that he could not take on multiple evil ones. It never explicitly states that he became trapped in the dark lord persona, after all he did regenerate a new form in the Third Age. Whether or not the wings actually were more than just shadows is a debate that will probably never end.

[ June 12, 2002: Message edited by: Thingol ]

[TarElendil]

yes, i agree with thingol. "Passed over" can be the same thing as "walked over" or "rode over" in many instances.

[TarElendil]

according to The History of Middle-earth: Volume 4it says that both Balrogs and Orcs came to the aid of Morgoth.

To his aid came the Orcs and Balrogs that lived yet in the lowest places of Angband.

[Jessica Jade]

I think that all 9 Ringwraiths together might be able to kill a Balrog, but if it were one-on-one, between the Witch King and Gothmog for example, the Balrog would definitely win.

[Calencoire]

I'd have to say that the Balrogs would win because they were fighting with Morgoth even before men came, and some of the balrogs were just as powerful as Sauron, and the Ringwaiths weren't as powerful as Sauron, so therefore the Balrogs would win [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[Aule]

Both Sauron and the Balrogs were servants of the real dark lord Morgoth. I think that if Sauron was the Lt. of Morgoth the in fact he would be command of the Balrogs.
Whether or not this hierarchy would still exist after Morgoths exile is debatable, but it seems that there must have been a mutual understanding between Sauron and the Balrog as the Balrog did not not attack Saurons orcs. They were both corrupted Mair, so evil and of the same order.
Sauron undoubtably knew that a Balrog was in Moria because Orc scouts or messengers would have described a great power in the mines.
This Balrog was not the great captain of Balrogs which was Gothmog, but it would still be more powerfull than all the Ringwraiths which as has been said before were just corrupted men who had increased power due to the power of the ring but as has been said in a previouse post the ring only gives power proportionet to the wielders power.
Sauron being the greates of Aules people would easily beat down a Balrog

[obloquy]

some of the balrogs were just as powerful as Sauron

False.

but it seems that there must have been a mutual understanding between Sauron and the Balrog as the Balrog did not not attack Saurons orcs

When did the Balrog have occasion to attack Sauron's orcs?