The Capacity for Loathing?

[Ancalagon'sFire]

Orcs we can assume are the twisted form of both Men and Elves from the information we glean from 'The Silmarillion'. However, what I wonder is which of the races held the greatest capacity to hate the other?

Did Orcs despise the races of Men and Elves because deep down they knew that once they belonged to these carefree and happier races? Do they hate the races of what amount to their forefathers because they have been mutilated and corrupted beyond repair?

Do Elves and Men feel more of a sense of revulsion towards Orcs because deep down they know that these creatures are the darkest nightmares of their own psyche? Are there Orc traits in every Man and Elf alike?

Who of these hold the greatest capacity to hate the other? Who of these has the most sound reason to loathe his opposite number?

[Kidd2323]

I'd say that the orcs have the greater capacity for loathing only because they carry a dose of the evil spirit of their manipulator-Morgoth-in them. His hate spawned their hate, and they would drop all things to throw a spear at a pure Child of Iluvatar. Some of the evil men-Easterlings and Swarthy men-repented of their unjust doings, but you'd never find an orc on his knees crying for mercy. To top it all off, orcs liked to eat man-flesh with a particular verve knowing full well their deeds were evil. To be evil and know it is to be base-born and without remorse and certainly lends to an infinite amount of loathing.

[Kidd2323]

One more thing...men and elves were movd to pity.

Can you see an orc who had pity?

[obloquy]

This is from Myths Transformed:

If any Orcs surrendered and asked for mercy, they must be granted it, even at a cost.* This was the teaching of the Wise, though in the horror of the War it was not always heeded.

You certainly wouldn't find such a custom among the Orcs.

[ May 28, 2002: Message edited by: obloquy ]

[Jessica Jade]

I believe that orcs were absolutely depraved--as in, they WERE base-born and could not desire good... nor did they really know the true meaning of it. Maybe the could sense good though--they might have hated the children of Ilúvatar because they seemed much happier and were not slaves like the orcs were. It says in the Sil that the Orcs secretly hated their master (Morgoth), and I believe this is probably because he is the cause of all their suffering and their inability to do "good."

[Maédhros]

I would say that Orcs are definitely more easy to say that they hate the most. They were a race created to fight both elves and men. They were perversions of them.
In the sil, we can see that elves and men have this capacity too.
Orcs have the excuse that they were mutilated by Melkor, yet the elves and men no.
We see for example, Saeros distrust and loathing of Turín. Maeglin dislike of Tuor and we see the great loathing that Maedhros had against those of Thangorodrim.
I think that they all have a great capacity for loathing, the more brighter the spirit, the more the capacity to hate.
Look at Galadriel, she didn't like Feanor, she in fact hated him. And that was in paradise, in Valinor. Hate doesn't know places or race. It's just it.

[Eol]

Everyone has the same compasity to hate. Orcs are more a of more physical represenation of that hate that lays in every being.

The point was wonderfully spoke of in views of not only the orcs, as well as the Elves and the Men.

Would you think it is possible for an Orc to feel compassion? Sure he was corrupted, but there is a possiblity to come back. Why do alcoholics and those who go down the tube come back? How would you explain "seeing the light?

[TarElendil]

Morgoth first tested the breeding of orcs. Sauron then "perfected" it while he was still the lt. of Morgoth.

I pity the orcs in all the books of Tolkien. They hated everything around them. Even themselves, for they know what they shouldve been. They hated their masters sauron and morgoth because they turned them into what they were.

Who of these hold the greatest capacity to hate the other? Who of these has the most sound reason to loathe his opposite number?

the orcs.

[ June 13, 2002: Message edited by: TarElendil ]

[Anna Licumo]

Oh, no. I go through the whole book feeling immense pity for everyone, but can at least sigh in relief when they kill the orcs. No I know they're poor tortured souls who have no capacity for love, and hate that, hate themselves, and hate the Men and Elves for being able too. Poor, poor, twisted children of the Evil. Great. Now I feel bad when they die. Now Legolas' and Gimli's hilarious counting of felled orcs seems ruthless.
Curse your brilliance, oh fellow 'Downers.

[Beleglas]

Orcs we can assume are the twisted form of both Men and Elves from the information we glean from 'The Silmarillion'. However, what I wonder is which of the races held the greatest capacity to hate the other?

If I remember correctly (and I believe I do this time), the first Orcs were only Elves who were captured Morgoth and tortured to the beings they are now. He made trolls for the same sake by torturing ents.
Don't forget that elves must have been changed for they would never be minions of Morgoth in their own will and men are easily enough corrupted into the service of evil.

[Bêthberry]

*climbs high up on Old Willow to watch the Withywindle flow in the distance*

What do readers learn from Gandalf's advice to Frodo about having pity for Gollem? And from the importance of Gollem to the story of the Ring?

[mark12_30]

Bethberry, Wild that you should ask that... I'm in the middle of writing about it now, and it makes my head spin sometimes. I think that Frodo must have felt that he was looking in a mirror of what-will-happen-to-me-if-this-thing-gets-the-better-of-me. He was looking at Gollum's past, and his own potential future, from the Emyn Muil all the way through Ithilien, I think. Creepy. But no wonder he felt pity for Gollum... there, but for the grace of God, go I... is that me?? I hope not...

Say, Bethberry, I've been wondering how you like The Old Forest. You even get away with climbing Old Man Willow. Is that 'cause you know all the right songs?

[TarElendil]

If I remember correctly (and I believe I do this time), the first Orcs were only Elves who were captured Morgoth

the orcs were a mixture of man and elves tolkien later said. He changed many things about ME before he died.

well and in my opinion, to loathe indeed is to hate consciously, and this you can only do if you know what is hate, and this you can achieve firstly by perceiving what is love, an adverse form of hate. orcs couldn't; all their hate was in fact not theirs, but Morgoth's: he directed their minds and forced them to hate..thus i suppose orcs didn't possess a true ability of loathing [except, perhaps, that they hated Morgoth as well]
and it was Melkor himself who hated mowt of all: being one of the Ainur, and a Vala, he knew what is beauty and what is maybe love and pity of Iluvatar, and unable to make, he started to mock things..
and if we talk about other races, then maybe Men. i'm not sure but I suppose it was said that they somehow fell under the will of Morgoth, and even when he was thrust into the Void and all, the seed of hate stayed in them. they really have little pity and are quick to become enemies. like in 'Of Turin':the elves of Doriath only pity for Turin and forgive him the many slayings, and Turin himself slayes the other men whenever he falls into quick anger..

[Beleglas]

the orcs were a mixture of man and elves tolkien later said. He changed many things about ME before he died.

I didn't know that, I've only read the Silmarillion, the Hobbit and LOTR, so all of my info is a bit out of date.
I learn something new every day!

[TarElendil]

and if we talk about other races, then maybe Men. i'm not sure but I suppose it was said that they somehow fell under the will of Morgoth, and even when he was thrust into the Void and all, the seed of hate stayed in them. they really have little pity and are quick to become enemies. like in 'Of Turin':the elves of Doriath only pity for Turin and forgive him the many slayings, and Turin himself slayes the other men whenever he falls into quick anger..

turin can NOT be used as an example. He and his whole family was cursed by morgoth. The whole race of men did NOT fall under the will of morgoth. Read the sil and youll see. When he was thrust in the void it says that a shadow was still on Middle-earth not men ALONE. The WHOLE of middle-earth. Theyhave little pity? Read the descriptions of turin. He pitied the footless guy in Dorlomin and the girl he came across in the woods being chased by one of his company. Turin killed the guy in dorlomin because he had turned his kin and the people of dorlomin into slaves. i would have done the same if i was turin. turin fled because he thought he would be tried unjustly. He did not know he was pardoned. And when he found out from beleg he did not want to return in shame. Mens' hearts are prouder than most elves'. You seem to describing traits of the easterlinges and other men and placing those on the Edain. Men's gift of death was TAINTED by morgoth. they did not wholly fall under his will. Some did, but the edain didnt.

[TarElendil]

and i think the orcs' hate was both morgoths and their own. A mixture of the two. Morgoths malice for the elves and men and all fair things and their hate for the kindreds of men and elves for they knew what they should have been.

[Jessica Jade]

What do readers learn from Gandalf's advice to Frodo about having pity for Gollem? And from the importance of Gollem to the story of the Ring?

For more in-depth discussion on this topic, please visit
The Meaning of Pity and Mercy thread. I promise you-it's very thought provoking.

[Bêthberry]

Well, mark12_30, I can climb Old Willow 'cause old Dad taught me the songs. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] I love the Old Forest because everything seems more alive here. But I venture out to see if my mother's songs of contentment can be heard throughout Middle Earth.

What are you writing? A fan fic? Have you ever shared it anywhere? *asks with polite, respectfuly curiosity*

What intrigues me about pity and mercy is this journey of Frodo's:

In the chapter, "The Shadow of the Past", Frodo comments to Gandalf, "What a pity that Bilbo did not stab that vile creature, when he had a chance!"

Then, in "The Scouring of the Shire", Frodo says to Saruman, "Well, if that is what you find pleasure in ... I pity you ...." And then to Sam, "No, Sam,... Do not kill him even now. For he has not hurt me. And in any case I do not wish him to be slain in this evil mood. He was great once, of a noble kind that we should not dare to raise our hands against. He is fallen, and his cure is beyond us; but I would still spare him, in the hope that he may find it."

I expect this applies to orcs as well, even if they are not noble kind.

*sits watching some water lilies sway in the eddies of the Withywindle*

Bethberry

[Bêthberry]

Jessica Jade,

Thank you for bringing this thread to my attention. *curtsies respectfully*

I will add my thoughts there, where they deserve to be posted, later today. These young Brandybucks take up so much of my time. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Bethberry

[Jessica Jade]

I expect this applies to orcs as well, even if they are not noble kind.

Hmmm...I'm not so sure about that, because I highly doubt that orcs have any hope of being uncorrupted. But anyway, that kind of stuff was discussed in The Meaning of Pity and Mercy thread-- by the way, thanks so much for visiting, Bethberry! I look forward to seeing your comments [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[The Silver-shod Muse]

We don't know just how Morgoth corrupted the Elves and Men in order to transform them into Orcs, but because Orcs are corruptions of beings that have fea, it seems that they would also have fea unless that is what Morgoth took from them. (In which case it would explain why they cannot show pity.)

If an Orc is born evil, where does its fea go (provided it has a fea)? To the Halls of Mandos or out into the void with Morgoth? After all, the Orcs were not given a choice of whether or not to be good in the "time that was given them". Maybe they are cleansed in death and are allowed to "discorporate", or are destroyed by Eru that they may find peace. What do you think?