Sauron's loyalty after the First Age

[Zigûr]

Hello, having introduced myself in the Newcomers thread I thought I might bring up an issue which I have been musing upon for a while. The gist of it is this: what are your opinions on Sauron's loyalty after the First Age? Was he still devoted to Morgoth or was he pursuing his own agenda?

The reason I ask is that I see a lot of threads on forums around the internet with notions like "why Sauron stayed loyal after Morgoth's defeat", "would he try to bring Morgoth back somehow" and the like, but I felt that a lot of these rely on the assumption that Sauron particularly cared that his former master was gone. The confusion seems to primarily lie with Sauron's establishment of the Melkor-worshipping religion in Númenor.
I personally have always viewed Sauron as a complete opportunist. He was, according to Morgoth's Ring, seduced to Morgoth's side because of Morgoth's apparent efficiency and decisiveness (compared to the Valar). By the Second Age, in Númenor, this ruthless pragmatism of Sauron's which Morgoth exploited had effectively gone full circle; it would seem to me that his establishment of Melkor-worship derived not from any genuine sense of reverence for his exiled master but purely out of convenience: "Sauron, apparently a defeated rival for world-power, now a mere hostage, can hardly propound himself; but as the former servant and disciple of Melkor, the worship of Melkor will raise him from hostage to high priest." (Morgoth's Ring again)

What do you think? While I do believe that Sauron's pursuit of his particular agenda caused him to ultimately, subconsciously, propagate the cause of the ongoing malice of Morgoth imbued as it was in the very substance of Middle-earth itself, I believe this was in the purely conceptual, metaphysical sense of "Morgoth" as it had come to exist as the general presence of evil potency in Arda, not in the fulfilment of the deliberate will of Melkor-Morgoth in actuality as a person or individual. Nor do I believe that any of his schemes, including the destruction of Númenor, the forging of the Rings or any of his other policies were enacted out of any deliberate continued loyalty on Sauron's part to Morgoth the person, who was exiled seemingly permanently from Arda and whose absence elevated Sauron from second-in-command to potentially complete primary lordship. How do you view the matter?

[Boromir88]

Hello Zigur, welcome to the Barrow-downs. A highly interesting thread topic, and much of what you say is what I think as well.

"Opportunist" is a good word to use for Sauron. I can't track down the precsie reference at the moment, but Sauron first was drawn to Melkor's service because of Melkor's power and the expediency he was able to enact his plans. Morgoth seemed the "I want this now" Dark-Lord, where Sauron was more calculated and thoughtful:

Sauron, however, inherited the 'corruption' of Arda, and only spent his (much more limited) power on the Rings; for it was the creatures of earth, in their minds and wills, that he desired to dominate. In this way, Sauron was also wiser than Melkor-Morgoth. Sauron was not a beginner of discord; and he probably knew more of the 'Music' than did Melkor, whose mind had always been filled with his own plans and devices, and gave little attention to other things.~HoME X: Morgoth's Ring; Myths Transformed

Sauron, no doubt, joined Melkor's service because they essentially had the same designs. But it was an opportunistic move, much like Saruman's "we can join with that Power (Sauron)" speech to Gandalf was Saruman being an opportunist. Saruman expresses the same goals as Sauron, but feels to achieve them, the easiest way is to get on Sauron's good side, and then backstab him when the chance presented itself. I'm not saying Sauron ever wanted to backstab Morgoth, but he joined Morgoth to further his own ambitions.

Eventually, Morgoth starts slipping into nihilism, where all he cares about is complete and utter destruction. Morgoth, being unable to control becomes like an 8-yo having a temper tantrum. "Fine, if I can't have it my way, I'm just going to trash the place." He recklessly throws in armies and spends resources, because all he wants total destruction. On the other hand, Sauron never falls to nihilism:

"He [Sauron] still had the relics of positive purposes, that descended from the good of the nature in which he began: it had been his virtue (and therefore also the cause of his fall, and of his relapse) that he loved order and co- ordination, and disliked all confusion and wasteful friction. (It was the apparent will and power of Melkor to effect his designs quickly and masterfully that had first attracted Sauron to him.)"~ibid

And take care of two points with one quote, since I also found the reference to why Sauron first joined Morgoth. Anyway, Sauron loved order and co-ordination. His plans were to dominate and control free will. He wanted slavery and obediance to his will. Morgoth wanted to burn the world. It's hard to rule over others if you're destroying/killing everything.

As far as the Melkor-religion he was creating in Numenor. Again, this is, I feel, Sauron just being an opportunist:

Sauron was not a ’sincere’ atheist, but he preached atheism, because it weakened resistance to himself (and he had ceased to fear God’s action in Arda)..... To wean one of the God-fearing from their allegiance it is best to propound another unseen object of allegiance and another hope of benefits; propound to him a Lord who will sanction what he desires and not forbid it. Sauron, apparently a defeated rival for world-power, now a mere hostage, can hardly propound himself; but as the former servant and disciple of Melkor, the worship of Melkor will raise him from hostage to high priest.~ibid

Sauron never denies the existance of the "Gods" and from the sound of it, never aligned to the belief of Morgoth idolatry. He ceases to fear they will step in and muck up his plans, as they had done with Morgoths, but he always acknowledged their existance. Sauron's Melkor-religion of Numenor, was Sauron wisely recognizing it strengthened his own standing in Numenor, not that he actually believed it:

When he found how greatly his knowledge was admired by all other rational creatures and how easy it was to influence them, his pride became boundless. By the end of the Second Age he assumed the position of Morgoth's representative. By the end of the Third Age he claimed to be Morgoth returned.~Letter 183

Technically speaking, he is following along with Morgoth's work, because Morgoth was the creator of all this discord. However, Sauron was full of pride, and I think we can reasonably say, in Sauron's mind (which is what really matters here), he's not thinking about Morgoth. He's thinking about his own abitions, and setting himself as the "Lord" over Middle-earth.

[Galadriel55]

I second Boro, this is a very interesting topic.

I agree with what has been said, and "opportunist" seems quite a fitting word to describe Sauron.

It's really not that difficult a choice for him: either you work hard to do the near-impossible of bringing your old master back, or you become the big bad bully yourself. Knowing Sauron's lust for power, his choice is clear. I doubt he ever felt any devotion to Morgoth beyond the basic "while he's there he gives me power" feeling. So I doubt Sauron had any great loyalty in the first place.

I like the sound of the idea that Sauron's Morgoth cult is really subconsciously worshiping "Morgoth's Ring", not the individual himself.

[Mumriken]

Read the wikipedia article on Sauron and you would know his loyalty. It's quite obvious actually, obviously he is loyal to Melkor.

[Zigûr]

Wikipedia's articles on Sauron and Morgoth actually contributed to my motivation towards contemplating this topic. Once upon a time (before I edited it actually) the article on Morgoth claimed that Sauron stayed loyal to Morgoth after the First Age but gave no evidence from Professor Tolkien's own writing to support this assertion. Indeed almost all of the evidence which I mentioned from "Myths Transformed" along with the note from Letter 183, both of which were kindly provided in detail by Boromir88, would suggest to me that after the War of Wrath Sauron was pursuing his own agenda. Morgoth had become, more or less, irrelevant beyond being a phantom from Sauron's personal history he could use to corrupt the Númenoreans and other Men he duped into perceiving him as a divinity.
While I believe that Sauron was indeed loyal to Morgoth in the First Age, and was motivated to this allegiance initially due to admiration for Morgoth's ambition and wilfulness and later because being Morgoth's second-in-command was a position of enormous authority he could never have achieved on his own given the circumstances of the First Age, I don't believe that loyalty persisted after Morgoth's exile. This quote from Morgoth's Ring seems pertinent:

While Morgoth still stood, Sauron did not seek his own supremacy, but worked and schemed for another, desiring the triumph of Melkor, whom in the beginning he had adored. He thus was often able to achieve things, first conceived by Melkor, which his master did not or could not complete in the furious haste of his malice.

I am noting here words and phrases including "while Morgoth still stood" and "whom in the beginning he had adored". The suggestion seems very much to me to be that Sauron's admiration for Morgoth had gradually eroded, probably due to Morgoth's increasing nihilism, and that after Morgoth's defeat Sauron was seeking his own supremacy.
I think by and large the confusion that his loyalty was more enduring seems to derive from a misinterpretation of the events of the Akallabêth. As for this "bringing Morgoth back" idea, I'm pretty sure that's just a silly notion I read somewhere with no basis whatsoever in the Professor's writing, and possibly derives from a desire some might have for Tolkien's world to be more like the heavily serialised Fantasy sagas of more modern times (the plot of A Darkness at Sethanon is something like that I believe).

[Mumriken]

You know what staying loyal means right? You better edit that wikipedia article again, because you are clearly wrong.

[Zigûr]

By "did Sauron stay loyal" what I am asking is this: after the First Age and Morgoth's banishment into the Void, did Sauron remain devoted to Morgoth? Did he actively, intentionally continue to pursue Morgoth's cause? Did he desire to further Morgoth's plans for Morgoth's sake rather than his own? All evidence I can find (and which has been brought up in this thread) suggests that the answer is no. With Morgoth out of the picture he was furthering his own goals, pursuing his own agenda, and the only allegiance he owed was to himself. He was now his own master, not the obedient servant he had been in the First Age, and all the times he exploited the memory of Morgoth and the products of his reign (Orcs and the like) were for the sake of his own power and dominion, not about trying to bring Morgoth's thwarted schemes to fruition.
If there is evidence to the contrary I would of course be very interested to read it!

[Mumriken]

Did he actively, intentionally continue to pursue Morgoth's cause? Did he desire to further Morgoth's plans for Morgoth's sake rather than his own?

Morgoth's beyond any help, even if there was a point in pursuing "Morgoth's cause" whatever you mean by that....actually what do you mean by saying that. I think Sauron did a pretty good job in messing with the children of illuvatar. He did it because it's in his nature to do it, did he do it for morgoth? That is like saying did Gandalf show fireworks to little hobbit children because of Manwe wanting him to do so. Sauron did what he did because that is who he is. Being loyal means that he is on Morgoth's side. If he wouldn't be loyal he would go back to valinor and be judged and maybe be turned back into a good guy again. He never did therefore he is loyal. I don't get this "morgoth's sake". A soldier in a army doesn't fight because the general tells him to do so, he fights because he wants to.

With Morgoth out of the picture he was furthering his own goals, pursuing his own agenda, and the only allegiance he owed was to himself. He was now his own master, not the obedient servant he had been in the First Age, and all the times he exploited the memory of Morgoth and the products of his reign (Orcs and the like) were for the sake of his own power and dominion, not about trying to bring Morgoth's thwarted schemes to fruition.
If there is evidence to the contrary I would of course be very interested to read it!

The evidence to the contrary is that Sauron and Morgoth were very much alike in thought. Morgoth was thrown out of Arda chained unable to do anything. Sauron could do nothing but to keep doing what he did before, what HE IS. He could do nothing but do it for his own sake. Morgoth was out of the picture, if Morgoth would be in the world Sauron would join him again as a servant WHO LOVES TO SERVE because his master's goals are his own.

EDIT:So change the wikipedia article

[Zigûr]

Being loyal means that he is on Morgoth's side. If he wouldn't be loyal he would go back to valinor and be judged and maybe be turned back into a good guy again. He never did therefore he is loyal.

I don't think the only options for Sauron were either loyalty to Morgoth or loyalty to the Valar/Eru - it may have been that way in the First Age, but afterwards Sauron took a third option: loyalty to himself.

if Morgoth would be in the world Sauron would join him again as a servant WHO LOVES TO SERVE because his master's goals are his own.

I don't think this is supported by Professor Tolkien's own writing on the subject. As has been quoted earlier in the thread, Sauron's goals and Morgoth's goals differed. Morgoth was (certainly by the end of the First Age) a nihilist whose ultimate goal was to destroy the world. Sauron didn't want to destroy it, he wanted to rule it and order it for his own satisfaction. Morgoth's defeat actually made Sauron's desire for rule and order (which he'd had from the start, but which Morgoth only shared until his descent into nihilism) more achievable than it was when Morgoth was around.
While I agree that because Morgoth was the origin of evil in the world, by being evil Sauron was continuing what Morgoth started, it seems to me that the only way that constitutes loyalty is in an unintentional and metaphysical way. The idea I'm arguing against is that he was actively still devoted to Morgoth, which is to say that he was doing what he did to Morgoth's glory or because he believed Morgoth's cause was right. As we've seen, Morgoth's cause and Sauron's greatly differed in the end, so surely as far as Sauron was concerned his activities in the Second and Third Ages were meant to fulfil his own ambitions.

Sauron could do nothing but to keep doing what he did before, what HE IS

What he was doing before, which is to say in the First Age, was assisting in Morgoth's plans of destruction. In the Second and Third Ages he was pursuing his own goal of domination. Surely these are two different things.

A soldier in a army doesn't fight because the general tells him to do so, he fights because he wants to.

I think that's far from true in many circumstances.

[Mumriken]

Sauron took a third option: loyalty to himself.

Of course he is loyal to himself, as I said it seems you don't understand what loyalty means.

Sauron's goals and Morgoth's goals differed. Morgoth was (certainly by the end of the First Age) a nihilist whose ultimate goal was to destroy the world.

Oh really, yet he put the silmarils in a iron crown and declared himself ruler of Arda. He didn't want to destroy the world, he wanted to be recognized as the king of Arda and bend all the children of illuvatar to his will. Did he not corrupt elves into orcs and many maias including Mairon to serve him? Sauron or Mairon is Morgoth's shadow...

Morgoth's defeat actually made Sauron's desire for rule and order (which he'd had from the start, but which Morgoth only shared until his descent into nihilism) more achievable than it was when Morgoth was around.

When did Morgoth decend into nihilism?

The idea I'm arguing against is that he was actively still devoted to Morgoth, which is to say that he was doing what he did to Morgoth's glory or because he believed Morgoth's cause was right. As we've seen, Morgoth's cause and Sauron's greatly differed in the end, so surely as far as Sauron was concerned his activities in the Second and Third Ages were meant to fulfil his own ambitions.

His own ambitions...because Morgoth was not in the freckin world...! What it all boils down to is that you don't understand what being loyal means. One can still be loyal by being your own master. When Morgoth was thrown out into the world Sauron had two options:

1. Go back to valinor and ask for pardon or judgement.
2. Stay in middle earth and keep bothering people.

Remember even when Morgoth was loose in middle earth and tormented the children the valas did nothing. They do not directly intervene, therefore by staying in middle earth Sauron stayed loyal to Morgoth. Sure one could say he became his own master, but that is ONLY because Morgoth was not in the freckin world. That is like saying if a general is killed in battle the soldier all of a sudden isn't loyal to the dead general because he now has to order himself around and keep fighting the enemy.

So Sauron was loyal to Morgoth til the very end.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Mumriken

Read the wikipedia article on Sauron and you would know his loyalty. It's quite obvious actually, obviously he is loyal to Melkor.

Go not to wikipedia articles for they are of dubious sources. Go instead to Tolkien's own words and it's quite obvious actually, obviously Sauron was not loyal.

Originally Posted by Mumriken

You know what staying loyal means right? You better edit that wikipedia article again, because you are clearly wrong.

a) Is wikipedia the best source you can offer? b) Why is he clearly wrong? Only because you're so obviously right?


If it is all so obvious, Mumriken, why don't you see The Sil for the interesting info that immediately after the War of Wrath Sauron truly repented of his evil deeds and service to Melkor, and he genuinely begged for his own pardon. Only after a while did he return back to his old ways.

Even you would not call that "staying loyal".


I'm afraid it is you who does not understand what loyalty means. If you ask me Sauron was never loyal in the first place. It's not in his nature to serve anyone but himself. He followed Morgoth because this service allowed him to rise and to have quite a large chunk of power. He did not actively, physically betray Morgoth, but he would not have died for Morgoth's sake either - which true and strong loyalty does mean.

In the later Ages, did Sauron come as Morgoth's servant? No! He named himself Lord in his own right and whatever. After Morgoth could not give Sauron power, Sauron didn't give two cents for what happened to him - and it's not because cents were not created yet.

So quit the wikipedia campaign.

[Mumriken]

Go not to wikipedia articles for they are of dubious sources. Go instead to Tolkien's own words and it's quite obvious actually, obviously Sauron was not loyal.

Orly...

a) Is wikipedia the best source you can offer? b) Why is he clearly wrong? Only because you're so obviously right?

a)No, I just put it up to point out that he could probably read up on sauron and the answer would be obvious to him.
b)Already told him why he is clearly wrong, you want me to repeat myself to you.

If it is all so obvious, Mumriken, why don't you see The Sil for the interesting info that immediately after the War of Wrath Sauron truly repented of his evil deeds and service to Melkor, and he genuinely begged for his own pardon. Only after a while did he return back to his old ways.

Actually did he really, I don't have the entire silmarillion in my head but wasn't he afraid of returning or he felt humiliated and chose not to return but instead hid himself? I don't remember I have only listened to it once. Now even if he did ask for pardon which I don't think he did...well even if he did that would still not mean he abandoned Morgoth SINCE he returned to his evil ways eventually.

If you ask me Sauron was never loyal in the first place. It's not in his nature to serve anyone but himself.

Yet he went from being a good guy serving under Aule...to serve under Morgoth until Morgoth was captured and thrown into the void. That is quite a lot of serving if you ask me...and he never did turn his back to morgoth's evil ways. His own master, what a joke actually...it's so stupid I'm not sure why it's even being discussed. Not loyal to the devil himself, to the being who made him into what he is? So I guess the balrog's were their own masters as well after Morgoth left. Guess they weren't loyal to him anymore and instead enjoyed tormenting dwarves for personal pleasure. Not being loyal to Morgoth is like not being loyal to evil as it exists in the entire mythology. There are two sides in this story, it's clear which side Sauron is on. That he loves what he does doesn't mean he isn't loyal to the devil.

If you ask me Sauron was never loyal in the first place.

LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL, yeah right...then why did he join melkor in the first place. The only being he wasn't loyal to was Aule, who he left for morgoth.

In the later Ages, did Sauron come as Morgoth's servant? No!

Because morgoth was chained outside the ****in world......

After Morgoth could not give Sauron power, Sauron didn't give two cents for what happened to him - and it's not because cents were not created yet.

He didn't care? Oh I think he did...the war of wrath takes place, sauron has hid in some deep cavern...(lalalalalal I don't care...lalalalallala....few weeks later he goes out into the sun ohh what a nice day ...hmm finally now I can be my own master...)

AS IF...as I said not being loyal to Morgoth is like being good...it is that black and white. Because morgoth is evil personified, everything bad and evil in the world comes from him alone. Sauron was loyal to Morgoth, he had no other choice but to act on his own in the 2nd and 3rd ages since morgoth was not in the world. Like I don't get how you can go from....

War of Wrath (Morgoth Sauron defeated)
Morgoth thrown out of the world and chained
Sauron loose
Messes around with the children

NOT LOYAL??? Your logic is clearly flawed...

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

why don't you see The Sil for the interesting info that immediately after the War of Wrath Sauron truly repented of his evil deeds and service to Melkor, and he genuinely begged for his own pardon. Only after a while did he return back to his old ways.

You have rather beaten me to the punch there; here's the Professor's remark on the subject from "Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age":

When Thangorodrim was broken and Morgoth overthrown, Sauron put on his fair hue again and did obeisance to Eönwë, the herald of Manwë, and abjured all his evil deeds. And some hold that this was not at first falsely done, but that Sauron in truth repented, if only out of fear, being dismayed by the fall of Morgoth and the great wrath of the Lords of the West. But it was not within the power of Eönwë to pardon those of his own order, and he commanded Sauron to return to Aman and there receive the judgement of Manwë. Then Sauron was ashamed, and he was unwilling to return in humiliation and to receive from the Valar a sentence, it might be, of long servitude in proof of his good faith; for under Morgoth his power had been great.

What we can see from this is that Sauron's refusal to return to Valinor was not because he wanted to "Stay in middle earth and keep bothering people" but because he was too used to being second banana of a powerful realm to go from a position of high status to what would probably have been the absolute lowest rung on the ladder in Valinor.
Sauron did not go down the path of evil for the sake of evil, but out of a love of order (quoted earlier) which was repeatedly perverted to a lust for power. Professor Tolkien also makes this comment in the letter which is included in the Preface to the Second Edition of The Silmarillion:

Very slowly, beginning with fair motives: the reorganising and rehabilitation of the ruin of Middle-earth, 'neglected by the gods', he becomes a reincarnation of Evil, and a thing lusting for complete power

So ultimately he had a second fall: repenting of evil he fell back into evil but in the pursuit of a notionally 'noble' cause: the ordering of Middle-earth. It was not an immediate continuation of his activities as Morgoth's lieutenant.

not being loyal to Morgoth is like being good...it is that black and white. Because morgoth is evil personified, everything bad and evil in the world comes from him alone

This is not completely true. There is a difference between being evil, which indeed derives from Morgoth, and pursuing the same goals as Morgoth, which Sauron patently did not do, given that he was intent on rebuilding and ordering Middle-earth. This contrasts greatly with Morgoth's nihilistic tendencies at the end of the First Age, the quotes for which I now realise haven't been included in this thread so far but which I present (abridged) for the sake of completeness, with my apologies for asserting them earlier. They derive, again, from Morgoth's Ring.

His sole ultimate object was their destruction... This was sheer nihilism, and negation its one ultimate object: Morgoth would no doubt, if he had been victorious, have ultimately destroyed even his own ‘creatures’, such as the Orcs, when they had served his sole purpose in using them: the destruction of Elves and Men... even left alone he could only have gone raging on till all was leveled again into a formless chaos.

And lastly, and most importantly:

Morgoth had no ‘plan’: unless destruction and reduction to nil of a world in which he had only a share can be called a ‘plan’.

In contrast to this, the Professor notes:

Sauron had never reached this stage of nihilistic madness. He did not object to the existence of the world, so long as he could do what he liked with it. He still had the relics of positive purposes, that descended from the good of the nature in which he began.

I think we can perceive from this that certainly by the end of the First Age those qualities of Morgoth's which had first bought Sauron's loyalty had long degenerated. This quote about Sauron from the same text is also worth consideration:

He probably deluded himself with the notion that the Valar (including Melkor) having failed, Eru had simply abandoned Eä

So it would seem that Sauron considered Morgoth a failure; he had failed in the purpose which had first attracted Sauron - the masterful ordering of the world. Sauron was now going to fulfil the task which Morgoth had lacked the strength of character to accomplish. Did he perhaps even consider himself to be better, in that sense, than Morgoth? Possibly another question worth contemplating.

[Eäralda Halatiriva]

how do the Forces of Evil in Arda (like 'Mairon', like Melkor) accomplish their goals to overthrow the One via language and the categorizing meanings of linguistic Thought categories, would you say? How are both these wayward entities doing so in the First, Second, Third, or any Age, without their specific physical presences?

do you think the hierarchy of authority in the Spiritual world reflects also a hierarchy of knowledge production? Maybe that is why Sauron will service Melkor at the End (even though we all know they lose), because none of Sauron's efforts will be able to best Melkor (isn't that precisely why the Valar are made different in innate power from Maiar?

aren't both of them serving Eru, whatever they might choose to do?

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Eäralda Halatiriva

aren't both of them serving Eru, whatever they might choose to do?

An excellent point, and one I'd neglected. To quote Eru in the Ainulindalë:

And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined.

In regards to language, I thought I might offer this point in Appendix F:

It is said that the Black Speech was devised by Sauron in the Dark Years, and that he desired to make it the language of all those that served him, but he failed in that purpose.

It could be in this case that the desire for a single unified language for all his subjects derived from Sauron's desire for order and efficiency; it would certainly have aided communication. We can imagine, perhaps, that like Orwell's Newspeak its vocabulary might have limited the capacity for "disordered", which is to say rebellious, thinking among Sauron's slaves.
As for Morgoth, I know Professor Tolkien mused upon but ultimately rejected the idea of "Melkian" languages from which the Black Speech and other dark tongues derived, but what strikes me most about Morgoth is how often he is described as a liar, and a liar to himself as well as to others. From Valaquenta:

Understanding he turned to subtlety in perverting to his own will all that he would use, until he became a liar without shame.

In terms of knowledge production it's worth noting that it was a two-person job for the dark powers: Sauron "was often able to achieve things, first conceived by Melkor, which his master did not or could not complete in the furious haste of his malice."
Just a few ideas that might be relevant.

[Eäralda Halatiriva]

ah yes! and your deployment of the rich, evocative connotations of color-code demonstrates very plainly to this audience that you understood my point about language and speech acts, now doesn't it?


how, then, are we then transmuting the meanings of Darkness or Blackness when we understand their use by the Vala Irmo?

[Belegorn]

I agree with Mumriken. Though he may have confused some parts of the legends, I think Sauron was ever faithful to Morgoth, "and walked behind him on the same ruinous path down into the Void." [Sil, p. 26] Like Sauron, Morgoth "lay upon his face before theon feet Manwe and sued for pardon" [Sil, p. 52] Of course Morgoth had the more lofty goal of "dominion over Arda" and therefore "let most of his being pass into the physical constituents of the earth" and therefore he, "'incarnated' himself (as Morgoth) permanently" as he "attempted to identify himself" with Arda [Sil, p. 399]. This made the Valar moving against him hard due to his connection with Arda. Sauron, however, "was not obliged to spend so much of himself" and he "spent his (much more limited) power on the Rings; for it was the creatures of earth, in their minds and wills, that he desired to dominate." [MR, pp. 394-395] Obviously Morgoth hated anything not of his thought, and I do not think Sauron knew the mind of Morgoth and thus his nihilistic bent.

Not even one of the Valar, could read the mind of other 'equal beings':... Melkor remained in a fixed and powerful will to withhold his mind.

However, to me Sauron's greatest loyalty to Morgoth was that he was a shadow of the greater power, Melkor on a smaller scale, thus Morgoth's Ring [Arda] and Sauron's Ring [of power].

[Eäralda Halatiriva]

Originally Posted by Belegorn

I agree with Mumriken. Though he may have confused some parts of the legends, I think Sauron was ever faithful to Morgoth, "and walked behind him on the same ruinous path down into the Void." [Sil, p. 26] Like Sauron, Morgoth "lay upon his face before theon feet Manwe and sued for pardon" [Sil, p. 52] Of course Morgoth had the more lofty goal of "dominion over Arda" and therefore "let most of his being pass into the physical constituents of the earth" and therefore he, "'incarnated' himself (as Morgoth) permanently" as he "attempted to identify himself" with Arda [Sil, p. 399]. This made the Valar moving against him hard due to his connection with Arda. Sauron, however, "was not obliged to spend so much of himself" and he "spent his (much more limited) power on the Rings; for it was the creatures of earth, in their minds and wills, that he desired to dominate." [MR, pp. 394-395] Obviously Morgoth hated anything not of his thought, and I do not think Sauron knew the mind of Morgoth and thus his nihilistic bent.



However, to me Sauron's greatest loyalty to Morgoth was that he was a shadow of the greater power, Melkor on a smaller scale, thus Morgoth's Ring [Arda] and Sauron's Ring [of power].

agreed! the question of the medieval principle of loyalty as a ground principle of the monarchical, feudal state, for which the whole of Arda is made available, is altogether a different question than the discourse of naming by which we know these Bodiless, Timeless entities who fell into Shadow. the one entity known to the Incarnates as Sauron seems to prefer the tactic of goeteia in his working out of the strategy of total control over the Little Kingdom; the greater entity known as Melkor (who is the fount of Theological Evil in this legendarium) prefers the tactic of magia (and thus the suffusion of the physical atoms of Arda with his infernal essence).....



....however, let us not forget that the names by which these Bodiless entities are known to us in the official, authoritative texts are given to them by Noldor, the Deep Eldar - and are thus subject to the inevitable bias of natural incarnation: this means that the transcribed, translated meanings of these names convey by definition the biases of the perceiving minds of their aboriginal Elvish authors, who, although they do have better access to a universe outside of four spacetime dimensions, do not seem able to perceive the wider canopy of possible meanings of color, shape, quantity, etc.

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Mumriken

Read the wikipedia article on Sauron and you would know his loyalty. It's quite obvious actually, obviously he is loyal to Melkor.

Originally Posted by Mumriken

You know what staying loyal means right? You better edit that wikipedia article again, because you are clearly wrong.

Originally Posted by Mumriken

Orly...

a)No, I just put it up to point out that he could probably read up on sauron and the answer would be obvious to him.
b)Already told him why he is clearly wrong, you want me to repeat myself to you.

Calm down the rhetoric man. This isn't some place where you win anything by stating in an interesting thread, that other people are wrong. It's actually a topic that may not have a single, clearly defined answer. Make your argument and leave it at that, no need for the rhetoric. And if you are going to disagree with other people's opinions, better come with more than wikipedia.

What I'm wondering, in all of this, is does anyone think Saruman was loyal to Sauron?

[Mumriken]

A lot of fair points, but I'm sure Morgoth would be pleased with Sauron. What he did in middle earth when he wasn't around. Loyal or not Sauron is the puppet of morgoth and will be til the end. You say Morgoth wanted chaos and Sauron order, which might be true but still the way both of them tried to accomplish their goals were much alike. Sauron was loyal to morgoth as long as morgoth was around and he'd still be loyal if morgoth was there. There was never a instance when Sauron turned his back to morgoth, he never went to Valinor therefore he stayed loyal in my opinion. That their end goals are slightly different doesn't matter, Morgoth would have been pleased...very pleased. That is all that matters. I don't think we can for certain say if Sauron considered himself greater than morgoth in any way.

Sauron is more loyal to Morgoth than he is to the valar by being loyal to himself.

[Nerwen]

Mumriken, I've been reading this most interesting thread, and I'm pretty sure you've misunderstood both the original question and the subsequent points made by other posters. I believe the problem here is one of semantics– that is, you seem very focussed on your own definition of the word "loyal". Zigur, Boro and G55 are clearly using it to mean "consciously serving another", whereas by "loyal" you appear to mean "furthering another's ends, deliberately or not". Do you see the difference?

Now, here's a little quiz for you: do you think Saruman was loyal to Morgoth? What about Gollum? Shelob? Wormtongue? Bill Ferny? Lotho Sackville-Baggins? I mean, he would have been quite pleased with all of them, wouldn't he?

[Eäralda Halatiriva]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Now, here's a little quiz for you: do you think Saruman was loyal to Morgoth? What about Gollum? Shelob? Wormtongue? Bill Ferny? Lotho Sackville-Baggins? I mean, he would have been quite pleased with all of them, wouldn't he?

how would any conscious being in Arda who wishes to coerce the free will of others be disloyal by any definition to the source of Theological Evil, defined as "the removal of the free will of others(i know silent readers that i've used bit of tautology!)", Man Woman?

[Nerwen]

Eäralda Halatiriva– I believe I have explained the distinction already. Read my post again.

[Eäralda Halatiriva]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Eäralda Halatiriva– I believe I have explained the distinction already. Read my post again.

oh yes, Man Woman, you've certainly used the word "conscious" in your laying out of your argument. i believe you


but i see still no dilemma between conscious and unconscious, as you seem to be trying to mean it

[Nerwen]

Then we are at an impasse. I mean, I really don't think I could put it plainer than I have already, sorry.

[Eäralda Halatiriva]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Then we are at an impasse. I mean, I really don't think I could put it plainer than I have already, sorry.

oh, we're not at as much an impasse as you seem to presume, Man Woman you needn't apologize for anything - and most certainly not for sharing your Standpoint (something that, yes, even Mumriken is Entitled to).


keep up the interesting sharing around this Round Table, people!

[Boromir88]

Earalda, it still doesn't change the fact that there are different interpretations of "loyalty." Since the thread asked if we believed after the 1st age if Sauron remained loyal to Morgoth, it's reasonable to consider if he was aiming to bring back his former Master. And the bottom line, looking at it from that interpretation is, he was not.

Sauron was not interested in Morgoth's return, because Sauron saw himself as "Morgoth returned." As his pride grew, Sauron was loyal to himself, he no longer worried about the Valar intervening and this includes Morgoth. It's hard to argue he remained loyal to Morgoth (as in being loyal to a person/being. For example, as Sam's unyielding loyalty to Frodo, and denying the Ring's influence because of his loyalty to his master.), when Sauron fashioned himself as Morgoth.

Now Mumriken brings up a good point I had not considered:

Originally Posted by Mumriken

Sauron was loyal to morgoth as long as morgoth was around and he'd still be loyal if morgoth was there. There was never a instance when Sauron turned his back to morgoth, he never went to Valinor therefore he stayed loyal in my opinion.

I agree, that had Morgoth not been removed, I think Sauron would have remained subordinate. But, it's a rather moot argument, since it's a "what if" scenario. Morgoth was gone and Sauron's pursuit was not to free Morgoth, but to Rule Middle-earth as his own domain.

It's not much different from Durin's Bane. After Morgoth's defeat, Durin's Bane fled and made himself a nice, humble home in Moria. Durin's Bane was not serving Sauron, nor was he serving Morgoth. However, when unwanted guests came barging in to disturb his retirement plans, he simply kicked them out.

My point here is, it's hard for evil to work together, and thus how can it remain loyal to another evil? It is always searching for the acquisition of more personal gain and power. Even if desiring the same, in the end there can only be one "Evil Lord." Saruman understood this when he tried to fool Sauron by joining him. Sauron capitalized on his opportunity when Morgoth was sent to the Void.

[Eäralda Halatiriva]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Earalda, it still doesn't change the fact that there are different interpretations of "loyalty." Since the thread asked if we believed after the 1st age if Sauron remained loyal to Morgoth, it's reasonable to consider if he was aiming to bring back his former Master. And the bottom line, looking at it from that interpretation is, he was not.

precisely! there are different interpretations of a word, as a Sign you've grasped it, Jewel of Faith!!!

does the image of a thing not partake in the essence of its template? can Sauron (as he is known in later Ages) propagate Theological Evil without having come to understand what Evil means in itself? ^^ can Energy exist without a Source?

thanks for sharing with us your beliefs. we learn much from you!

[Mumriken]

Gollum, Shelob etc did not know Morgoth. Also I'm not sure I'd call them evil. Intersting point you raised here btw, Gollum was loyal to the ring and therefore in a way to Sauron. However Gollum feared Sauron. Could one say the same of Morgoth/Sauron's relationship? If when Morgoth corrupted Mairon or Sauron to his side, was it out of fear Sauron joined him?

If it was out of fear, then I would probably agree with you that he never was truly loyal. But if he joined Morgoth for some other reason then I'd say he was loyal. Also there was no way Sauron could free Morgoth. So that he never tried to free Morgoth doesn't mean he wasn't loyal to him, because there was no way he could do that anyway so. I'm still going with this:

Sauron is more loyal to Morgoth than he is to the valar by being loyal to himself.

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Mumriken

If it was out of fear, then I would probably agree with you that he never was truly loyal. But if he joined Morgoth for some other reason then I'd say he was loyal.

As I think has been made clear from quotations, Sauron did join Morgoth initially in admiration for Morgoth's ambitions and methods, but as Morgoth's motivations waned towards all-consuming destructive hatred perhaps Sauron's loyalty did as well. Surely otherwise he would have occupied himself with destroying the world in Morgoth's name rather than trying to take it over for himself. Consider when a prophet dies but his follower tries to carry on his work in the name of that prophet. I would consider that loyalty. But if the prophet dies and the follower abandons that work and starts a new one, that would be different. It's the same with Morgoth getting banished to the void: Sauron could carry on Morgoth's work in Morgoth's name, even though Morgoth is gone, but instead he sets about making himself a Dark Lord and ruling things his own way. What's more, he even shows disdain for Morgoth - as some of our quotes from Professor Tolkien established, it seems that Sauron considered Morgoth to be a failure and set up Morgoth as a false god in Númenor despite knowing full well that Morgoth was powerless and that Eru was the one true God.
But to change things up I thought I'd examine it from the other point of view anyway: in what ways was Sauron still following Morgoth? So I'll offer some different material from the Professor. Take this comment of Sauron's doings, for example, from "Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age":

Therefore when Eönwë departed he hid himself in Middle-earth; and he fell back into evil, for the bonds that Morgoth had laid upon him were very strong.

So we can see that Morgoth's evil was certainly responsible for Sauron's relapse - that and his own nature, of course. Morgoth's Ring offers this consideration regarding Sauron's establishment of the Melkor-religion in Númenor:

there was seen the effect of Melkor upon Sauron: he spoke of Melkor in Melkor’s own terms: as a god, or even as God. This may have been the residue of a state which was in a sense a shadow of good: the ability once in Sauron at least to admire or admit the superiority of a being other than himself.

Of course the Professor does qualify this:

But it may be doubted whether even such a shadow of good was still sincerely operative in Sauron by that time.

Professor Tolkien seems to think that really it was a matter of convenience, not loyalty, but it's still worth musing upon. I suppose Sauron could have invented any phantom for the Númenoreans to worship, but can we imagine, perhaps, that as presumably well-educated people steeped in the lore of the First Age that the Númenoreans were well aware of Sauron's prior affiliation with Morgoth and that made propounding Morgoth, rather than some made-up figure, a more believable lie?

[Belegorn]

I think some people put forward the argument of Sauron not being loyal since instead of freeing Morgoth he took up the mantle of Dark Lord himself. "Morgoth and his satellite Sauron" [Letter 156] were like mirror images. Do you really think Sauron, even if he worked with Durin's Bane, had the ability to free Morgoth from the punishment of the Valar? I think you ask an impossible and foolhardy task to prove his loyalty. Morgoth had, "secret friends and spies among the Maiar whom he had converted to his cause, and of these the chief, as after became known, was Sauron, a great craftsman of the household of Aule." [MR, p. 52] He followed Morgoth, "because of his admiration of strength" and soon in the 2nd Age, "he assumed the position of Morgoth's representative" and then, "claimed to be Morgoth returned" at the end of the 3rd Age. Sauron, "represents as near an approach to the wholly evil will as possible" [Letter 183]. In another letter we are told how Sauron is attached to Morgoth as Gandalf is to Manwe. Also as Gandalf was his opposite so was Manwe, Morgoth's.

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Belegorn

I think some people put forward the argument of Sauron not being loyal since instead of freeing Morgoth he took up the mantle of Dark Lord himself. "Morgoth and his satellite Sauron" [Letter 156] were like mirror images. Do you really think Sauron, even if he worked with Durin's Bane, had the ability to free Morgoth from the punishment of the Valar? I think you ask an impossible and foolhardy task to prove his loyalty.

Personally I think this idea of "bringing Morgoth back" is not only impossible but irrelevant because it has no basis in anything Professor Tolkien wrote, but Sauron could have stayed loyal by carrying on in Morgoth's name. The impression I get is that by and large Sauron did not do so, and when he apparently did do things "in Morgoth's name" it was for the sake of his own power and not in tribute to Morgoth (the establishment of darkness-worshipping religions, for instance). One of Sauron's great lies to Ar-Pharazôn was this concerning the identity of the "Lord of the Darkness":

It is he whose name is not now spoken; for the Valar have deceived you concerning him, putting forward the name of Eru, a phantom devised in the folly of their hearts, seeking to enchain Men in servitude to themselves. For they are the oracle of this Eru, which speaks only what they will. Akallabêth

The truth was the reverse, of course. Morgoth was the "phantom" Sauron devised, seeking to enchain Men in servitude to himself. Yes, Morgoth was a real person, but that fact was irrelevant beyond being a convincing lie due to Sauron's prior affiliation with him.

[Mumriken]

English isn't my first language so excuse my english anyway...

As I think has been made clear from quotations, Sauron did join Morgoth initially in admiration for Morgoth's ambitions and methods, but as Morgoth's motivations waned towards all-consuming destructive hatred perhaps Sauron's loyalty did as well.

Perhaps but remember Morgoth wasn't a nihilist at all times. Once he also wanted to rule over others. Also if by the end of his time in middle earth morgoth was a nihilist and truly wanted to destroy everything. Then there are two questions we must ask ourself:

1. Why did he not do so?
2. Why did not Sauron do this?

Is it possible that if Morgoth wanted to destroy everything, the reason Sauron did not follow in his footsteps was because he was unable do so? Sauron was far from as powerful as Morgoth, that is why he created the rings to control all others. Unlike Morgoth who could actually challenge all others and win! So I think it's a bit unfair that you say that in order for Sauron to have been loyal to Morgoth he must have done these things:

-Tried to free Morgoth (Impossible)
-Tried to destroy everything (Impossible for him)

You make it impossible for him to have been loyal to morgoth by saying that.

What's more, he even shows disdain for Morgoth - as some of our quotes from Professor Tolkien established, it seems that Sauron considered Morgoth to be a failure and set up Morgoth as a false god in Númenor despite knowing full well that Morgoth was powerless and that Eru was the one true God.

That is not a sign of being disloyal at all to Morgoth but to Eru.

Professor Tolkien seems to think that really it was a matter of convenience, not loyalty, but it's still worth musing upon. I suppose Sauron could have invented any phantom for the Númenoreans to worship, but can we imagine, perhaps, that as presumably well-educated people steeped in the lore of the First Age that the Númenoreans were well aware of Sauron's prior affiliation with Morgoth and that made propounding Morgoth, rather than some made-up figure, a more believable lie?

Loyal to himself...who else to be loyal towards? Morgoth was in the void...that he forced the numenoreans to worship Morgoth is another action that suggests he still was loyal.

Personally I think this idea of "bringing Morgoth back" is not only impossible but irrelevant because it has no basis in anything Professor Tolkien wrote, but Sauron could have stayed loyal by carrying on in Morgoth's name. The impression I get is that by and large Sauron did not do so, and when he apparently did do things "in Morgoth's name" it was for the sake of his own power and not in tribute to Morgoth (the establishment of darkness-worshipping religions, for instance). One of Sauron's great lies to Ar-Pharazôn was this concerning the identity of the "Lord of the Darkness":

Yes it's impossible for him to bring him back...
Yeah when he apparently did so it was for his own sake...whose other sake would it be for?? Morgoth was outside the world remember...you almost make it sound that the only way Sauron would be able to stay loyal to Morgoth would be to create a statue of him and start worshipping him and forcing others to do so. That would be stupid and Morgoth would agree. I still hold this view and your post has so far only encouraged me to do so.

Sauron is more loyal to Morgoth than he is to the valar by being loyal to himself.

[Belegorn]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

Sauron could have stayed loyal by carrying on in Morgoth's name. The impression I get is that by and large Sauron did not do so,

Let's say this is the case, that his loyalty was based on carrying on in Morgoth's name. Now, keeping this train of thought, what about when Melkor was imprisoned for all those long years, the 3 Ages in Mandos' Halls? Did Sauron carry on in Morgoth's name or did he hide out for his own sake like many of Morgoth's other servants did? Was he punished for his disloyalty when Morgoth returned?

Originally Posted by Zigûr

when he apparently did do things "in Morgoth's name" it was for the sake of his own power and not in tribute to Morgoth (the establishment of darkness-worshipping religions, for instance).

He came to Morgoth's side due to the draw of power and the power he wielded under Morgoth.

Originally Posted by Zigûr

One of Sauron's great lies to Ar-Pharazôn was this concerning the identity of the "Lord of the Darkness":

Morgoth perpetuated lies among his servants all the time. All to his ends. Apparently from the Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth Morgoth lied about himself similarly to the Edain. He said, "I am the Giver of Gifts" [MR, p. 346] He had them take him as Lord rather than Eru.

Originally Posted by Zigûr

Morgoth was the "phantom" Sauron devised, seeking to enchain Men in servitude to himself. Yes, Morgoth was a real person, but that fact was irrelevant beyond being a convincing lie due to Sauron's prior affiliation with him.

Certainly Morgoth was not in Middle Earth at this time? Sauron building his own bases of power and seeking servants and the like to do his will does not necessarily mean he turned against Morgoth does it?

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Mumriken

Morgoth was outside the world remember...you almost make it sound that the only way Sauron would be able to stay loyal to Morgoth would be to create a statue of him and start worshipping him and forcing others to do so. That would be stupid and Morgoth would agree.[/B]

That is indeed (albeit rather facetiously phrased) what I would consider still being loyal, no matter how "stupid" it sounds, because it would mean that Sauron was carrying on in tribute and devotion to Morgoth, not for the sake of his own power and glory. Just because it seems stupid doesn't mean it's an implausible motivation. That's what a loyal follower would do, even though the master was dead or absent. You yourself said:

Originally Posted by Mumriken

Loyal to himself...who else to be loyal towards? Morgoth was in the void...that he forced the numenoreans to worship Morgoth is another action that suggests he still was loyal.

Assuming Sauron did establish this religion out of loyalty to Morgoth, this is exactly the "stupid" kind of loyalty you are talking about. Clearly by presenting this piece of evidence you yourself recognise that it is not unreasonable behaviour. The question is: was he encouraging the Númenoreans to worship Morgoth because he actually believed it would do any good or because it was what Morgoth would have wanted, or did he do it for the sake of his own power?

Originally Posted by Belegorn

Let's say this is the case, that his loyalty was based on carrying on in Morgoth's name. Now, keeping this train of thought, what about when Melkor was imprisoned for all those long years, the 3 Ages in Mandos' Halls? Did Sauron carry on in Morgoth's name or did he hide out for his own sake like many of Morgoth's other servants did? Was he punished for his disloyalty when Morgoth returned?

Morgoth's Ring tells us that Sauron did indeed stay loyal to Melkor during the latter's imprisonment. He worked on rebuilding Angband, breeding Orcs and various other projects Melkor had started before his capture.

Originally Posted by Belegorn

Sauron building his own bases of power and seeking servants and the like to do his will does not necessarily mean he turned against Morgoth does it?

No, it doesn't necessarily mean he turned against Morgoth, but it doesn't necessarily mean he was still serving him either.
I guess we could simplify this discussion by analysing this question: did Sauron establish the Melkor-religion among the Númenoreans because he genuinely believed that Morgoth was God and could give blessings to the Númenoreans, in real tribute to Morgoth (or his memory) and because it was what Morgoth would have wanted? Or, on the other hand, did he do it simply out of convenience because it was the most convincing lie for Morgoth's former lieutenant to tell?

[Mumriken]

That is indeed (albeit rather facetiously phrased) what I would consider still being loyal, no matter how "stupid" it sounds

Lol, only an idiot would do that. If that is the only way sauron could be loyal then men and elves would conquer middle earth the orcs would be slain and long gone. No I'll rephrase that...you're the stupid one for saying that is the only way Sauron could be loyal to Morgoth.

Assuming Sauron did establish this religion out of loyalty to Morgoth, this is exactly the "stupid" kind of loyalty you are talking about.

No because later on it led to the destruction of Numenor.

The question is: was he encouraging the Númenoreans to worship Morgoth because he actually believed it would do any good or because it was what Morgoth would have wanted, or did he do it for the sake of his own power?

There is no question to ask...you don't get it buddy.

No, it doesn't necessarily mean he turned against Morgoth, but it doesn't necessarily mean he was still serving him either.

How could he serve Morgoth if morgoth was not in the world???????????????

I guess we could simplify this discussion by analysing this question: did Sauron establish the Melkor-religion among the Númenoreans because he genuinely believed that Morgoth was God and could give blessings to the Númenoreans, in real tribute to Morgoth (or his memory) and because it was what Morgoth would have wanted? Or, on the other hand, did he do it simply out of convenience because it was the most convincing lie for Morgoth's former lieutenant to tell?

He convinced them to worship Morgoth so that they would turn against the Valar...he did this in service of Morgoth AND himself. You say the only way he could be loyal is to put on a chastity belt and attract people to some stone temple where they would sit and pray to Morgoth all day and night...you don't think it's stupid but it indeed is...

I hope I don't have to paste this again...

Sauron is more loyal to Morgoth than he is to the valar by being loyal to himself.

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Mumriken

How could he serve Morgoth if morgoth was not in the world???????????????

Originally Posted by Mumriken

he did this in service of Morgoth AND himself

So he in fact could serve Morgoth even though Morgoth was not in the world?
But I do appreciate this idea that Sauron's plans and his loyalty to Morgoth were not necessarily mutually exclusive. However:

Originally Posted by Mumriken

No I'll rephrase that...you're the stupid one for saying that is the only way Sauron could be loyal to Morgoth.

I take objection to this. I joined this forum to have a friendly discussion about Professor Tolkien's work, not to be called "stupid" just for having a different opinion to someone else.

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Mumriken

Ok let's point out where you're stupid then...

Can I just stress again how much I take objection to being called stupid? Making personal insults against me doesn't make your case any stronger.

However what you could have done to show your appreciation for your husband, is to rape 500 people then burn down a police station and not get caught! You could drug the officials down and try to make them rape for you!!!

As much as I find this whole hypothetical scenario incredibly distasteful I understand what you mean. The point is: was Sauron doing all his evil things to show his appreciation for Morgoth? If he was, I would consider that loyal. However, I think he had more selfish motivations. Where is the evidence, actual quotes from Professor Tolkien's work, which says that Sauron did these things out of appreciation for Morgoth? He even qualifies the human sacrifice religion in Númenor as being probably founded out of convenience, not genuine appreciation. Incidentally, I don't consider generally evil actions to be "in appreciation" for Morgoth just because all evil ultimately derives from Morgoth. We need to distinguish between deliberate and incidental. If Sauron did what he did for Morgoth, deliberately wanting to do it because it's what Morgoth would have wanted or as tribute to him then I would consider that loyal. But if his activities just happened to coincide with what would have pleased Morgoth or what Morgoth would have wanted, but showing appreciation for Morgoth didn't actually play any role in Sauron's decision-making then I would not consider that to be loyal. I wouldn't consider it to be especially disloyal either. I'm just trying to muse on whether Sauron did what he did because he thought Morgoth would have approved. It's like after someone dies you do something "because it's what they would have wanted." It seems to me that Sauron was fairly neutral about Morgoth at best, and at worst considered him to be a failure who'd lacked the willpower and strength to bring about the order Sauron craved. Do you think Sauron was doing this stuff because it's what Morgoth would have wanted?
But because I want a healthy discussion I thought I'd provide some more examples for Morgoth's lingering influence in Sauron's life. The Appendices to The Lord of the Rings at least twice name Sauron as "Sauron, servant of Morgoth" in reference to events that occurred in the Second and Third Ages. Sauron is at least still recognised as Morgoth's underling after Morgoth's own defeat. There is also the note from Letter 183 we've mentioned which I admit to finding very intriguing:

By the end of the Second Age he assumed the position of Morgoth's representative. By the end of the Third Age he claimed to be Morgoth returned.

Evidently Morgoth was still an important figure in terms of enabling Sauron's control of much of Middle-earth. In regards to "the position of Morgoth's representative" does Professor Tolkien strictly mean in regards to the Númenoreans or did he do the same elsewhere he held dominion? Did the Men of Rhûn and the Harad know enough to distinguish between Morgoth and Sauron? Was Sauron able to pass himself off as Morgoth in the Third Age because the Men of Darkness worshipped a nebulous "Lord of the Dark", a role which Sauron could assume?
May I just say however that in regards to your analogy I do find the idea of Sauron being Morgoth's "wife" to be rather amusing.

[Boromir88]

I'd hate to see what has been an insightful thread and brought up many different perspectives be closed down.

Remember, make your posts on topic and no need for the ad hominen arguments:

Barrow-downs Forum Policies

&

Guidelines for Forum Posting

[Nerwen]

Mumriken, I have no idea why *this* particular topic, of all things, should be such a sore point with you, or whether this is just how you normally react to disagreement– but either way it's gone far enough. As a longstanding member of this site, I can tell you that the way you've been behaving is just not on here. Kindly tone it down.