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Old 09-03-2010, 07:39 PM   #1
fortheshire
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Tolkien does Frodo truely find the peace he deserved in the grey havens?

Just recently I watched the lord of the rings extended editions and i fell in love with them. i had seen them when i was younger but now i have so much more appreciation for the books and movies. the story and world tolkien created is truely masterpiece, and i think the movies do a great job of putting his creation in picture.
the story of the ring was emotional, exciting, heart and just really powerful.
but.. the end just wasnt fulfilling as i hoped it would be for me. All along frodos quest from when he recieves his burden and is almost to the crack of doom, i was anticipating the time when frodo is finally lifted and free from the ring. i thought the whole belief was that once the ring was destroyed, all that was evil from it was destroyed and especially, frodo would be free at last.
it was kind of a roller coaster after the ring was destroyed, i felt really happy after the ring was destroyed and middle earth had been saved. then frodo at last returns to the shire. my mood started to change, when frodo still seemed unsettled even after the ring was destroyed. that wasnt right at all.
the end was really powerful for me. i felt at last, after all these ups and downs, frodo had found the peace he deserved. sacrificing all that he could for middle earth, he was so selfless. he had to give up his friends, basically all his past life he knew and missed.
i thought that was really sad but happy that he woulld go to the grey havens, where he would find peace. he had to, for all he had done.

but im still torn inside because ive read some things online about life in the grey havens. im not sure where the writing came from, but it seemed like tolkiens, and it was about how frodo still wasnt free from the ring completely in the heaven-like place. he still was going through some torment and couldnt get over the pain, i couldnt stand that.
is this really in the story? or is it something made up? because i really am upset if thats true. frodo cant just suffer for so long, its so not right.
maybe im more emotional over this because i have more of an understanding of suffering than other people. i know how it feels, i can relate to frodo so much, cause i suffer from panic attacks and anxiety.
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Old 09-04-2010, 10:40 AM   #2
narfforc
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First of all Welcome to The Downs Fortheshire......I think if Frodo was alive today, he may well have been diagnosed with PTSD. In the First World War, Tolkien may well have witnessed Shellshock, no-one ever really recovers from the kind of trauma that Frodo lived through, in war someone always suffers, there is no going back to the good old days after The Two World Wars, things have changed, yes the evil has been destroyed, but you cannot wipe out the memory of it by wishful thinking. The bodily pain he suffered was more to do with being hurt by Knife, Sting and Tooth, yet the loss of the Ring would have played on his mind, maybe like people who have taken hallucinagenic drugs have flashbacks, Arwen recognised this by giving him the white gem 'Where shall I find rest' was his cry. He seemed at times to be going through a depression, some have linked this to the same thing that happens in wars, where soldiers expect to die but don't. Frodo did not live out his life in the Grey Havens, he went to Tol Eressea, an island in the Bay of Eldamar which was off the Coast of Valinor. Taking into account of Bilbo's age, he couldn't have lived much longer, leaving Frodo the only hobbit west of the sea. Sam went west many years later, Frodo's only companions would probably have been the elves, the companionship of hobbits would have been missed even in The Blessed Realm.

P.S Bilbo is already 78 yrs older than Frodo and would not gain more life for being in The Undying Lands, probably the opposite.
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Last edited by narfforc; 09-04-2010 at 11:14 AM.
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Old 09-04-2010, 12:00 PM   #3
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Part of the source in question might be letter 246 (drafts, dated 1963, to a Mrs Elgar), where Tolkien notes that both Frodo and Bilbo still bore a mark of the One, and:

Quote:
(...) 'Alas! there are some wounds that cannot be wholly cured', said Gandalf (III 268) -- not in Middle-earth. Frodo was sent or allowed to pass over Sea to heal him -- if that could be done, before he died. (...) So he went both to a purgatory and to a reward, for a while: a period of reflection and peace and a gaining of a truer understanding of his position in littleness and in greatness, spent still in Time amid the natural beauty of 'Arda Unmarred', the earth unspoiled by evil.' (...)

JRRT, Letters
Full context is best. Much later in 1971, JRRT wrote to Roger Lancelyn Green (in part):

Quote:
'As for Frodo or other mortals, they could only dwell in Aman for a limited time -- whether brief or long. The Valar had neither the power nor the right to confer 'immortality' upon them. Their sojourn was a 'purgatory', but one of peace and healing and they would eventually pass away (die at their own desire and of free will) to destinations of which the Elves knew nothing.'
Anyway, I think letter 246 is maybe part of the source of what you read online.
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Old 09-04-2010, 06:14 PM   #4
Orofarne
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Very interesting about the whole purgatory thing, I knew Tolkien was Catholic, but I guess I never thought about it much.
But about the ending in the movie. I loved how, in the books, every loose end was tied up, and you get this wonderful sense of fulfillment after you turn the last page (followed by a sense of disapointment as you realize there's no more). Modern endings are so awful these days, don't you think?
But if Frodo moved to Erresea, doesn't that show that he's not quite healed? It seems to me that Tolkien saw the sea as this good and powerful force, and if Frodo needed the sea, it almost proves how ill he is. Never mind, I'm probably entirely insane by now.
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Old 09-04-2010, 08:55 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by Orofarne View Post
But if Frodo moved to Erresea, doesn't that show that he's not quite healed? It seems to me that Tolkien saw the sea as this good and powerful force, and if Frodo needed the sea, it almost proves how ill he is. Never mind, I'm probably entirely insane by now.
Frodo having lingering physical and spiritual ills from his experience with the Ring was the reason he passed "over Sea". The Undying Lands were his only hope of peace, until the end of his natural life.
The Sea itself is important in two ways: it is the 'gateway' for the Elves to find their way to the Blessed Realm, and it is also the place in which through Ulmo the Vala, the Music lives on, and can be heard clearly by those who listen.
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Old 09-05-2010, 01:19 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Galin View Post
Part of the source in question might be letter 246 (drafts, dated 1963, to a Mrs Elgar).
Thanks for posting the ref to L246, Galin. I had intended to bring that one up, but you beat me to it <g>.

Another related point that underlies Tolkien mythos is that Eru (The One) doesn't "fix" evil and the hurts that come from it by "rolling things back to the way they were" (by "undoing" the evil) - but RATHER by redressing the hurt, by making a new thing that is, in the end, better and richer and more beautiful than the old, but which would not have been but for the presence of the evil. Thus, for example:

In Silmarillion/Ainulindale Eru/Illuvatar says
Quote:
Thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined.
And, later, after the rebellion of Feanor
Quote:
when the messenger decalred to Manwe ... the last word of Feanor: that at the least the Noldor should do deeds to live in song for ever, he said ... Thus even as Eru spoke to us shall beauty not before conceived be brought into Ea, and evil yet be good to have been.' But Mandos said: 'And yet remain evil.'
We are not told the details of what the "redressing" of his hurts would be for Frodo, but we are left with at least two glimpses or hints.

1) As Galin quoted from letter 246, Frodo was going to a place where he would be living with Eldar who had personally conversed and learned much wisdom direct from Eru's vice-regents in Middle Earth (The Valar). A place where the people had many arts and skills far exceeding those of the (relatively) barbarous folk of Middle Earth, and yet were intensely in love with nature (much as the Hobbits) {this from recountings in "The Book of Lost Tales" and other places}.

2) Hobbits, Tolkien makes clear (also in letter 246 and elsewhere), are of man "kind" and share the essential trait of men - the "Gift of the One to Men" - that, unlike Elves, they are not bound within the circles of Ea but, at death, go beyond it to where Eru himself dwells. About this Aragorn comforts Arwen (and this would be a comfort to Frodo as well)
Quote:
Behold! We are not bound forever to the circles of the world, and beyond them is more than memory.
That flows from the essential "Estel" (hope) that underlies LOTR and Sil - That even tho the "One" is not personally present "in" Ea, he is still providentially involved in its history and in the beings he made to inhabit it. And, THEREFORE, that he will, in some manner, redress all hurts of his creatures and his creation.

Quote:
He that attempteth {to thwart my/Eru's plan} shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined.
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Old 09-05-2010, 07:24 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fortheshire
but im still torn inside because ive read some things online about life in the grey havens. im not sure where the writing came from, but it seemed like tolkiens, and it was about how frodo still wasnt free from the ring completely in the heaven-like place. he still was going through some torment and couldnt get over the pain, i couldnt stand that.
is this really in the story? or is it something made up?
Well, fortheshire, firstly, as has already been mentioned, the Grey Havens refers to the harbour– Frodo didn't, in fact, stay there. Secondly, what you're describing sounds to me like it might be just fan-fiction. You don't happen to have a link, do you?
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Old 09-05-2010, 09:36 AM   #8
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Yes, my guess is that the source is Tolkien's letter, and only generally here; and that the Grey Havens are being mixed up with Tol Eressea (which happens enough it seems). But Man-maiden has a point that it's tough to say what's 'made up' here with respect to some things online, which is vague of course.

I don't read fan fiction, but what I can say is that it 'comes from Tolkien' that Frodo and Bilbo are still marked in some measure by the One, and seek healing Oversea.

What some fan might have made out of that...
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