The Subplot Vanishes! - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Kalimac · 03-26-2002, 12:54 AM

This is a fairly minor topic but it's one I've been thinking about; as everyone here probably knows, the scene with Galadriel giving gifts to the entire Fellowship was cut, but will be included on the DVD. Presumably this scene will demonstrate the fact that Gloin develops what you could only call a world-class crush on Galadriel (I was actually really sorry not to see it in the movie proper, especially considering how it had been set up in the scene where he says "here's a Dwarf she won't ensnare so easily.") So I'm wondering a couple of things; first of all, since obviously you can't have Gimli threatening to kill Eomer for speaking slightingly of Galadriel in the TTT movie proper (since people who'd only seen FOTR in theaters would have no idea why he had apparently changed his mind about her just at that moment) will they just include some extra Gimli-and-Galadriel related scenes in the TTT and ROTK "special edition" DVDs? It would be a nice way to be consistent, OTOH it would be a little odd to have an Incredible Disappearing Subplot that you could presumably never be aware of unless you got the DVD.Second question is more general; which subplots do you hope will be included in TTT and ROTK? And which could ones could you see cut with minimal regrets? Going on the assumption, of course, that some stuff *has* to be cut no matter how much we'd all like to see every line of Aragorn arguing with people about the proper name for athelas or kingsfoil or whatever it is. Any thoughts?

Marileangorifurnimaluim · 03-26-2002, 01:02 AM

Kalimac, great topic. I would like to see the discord between Grishnahk and Ugluk, indicating the Double treachery of Saruman. Alas, I fear it's not to be. The good and evil has been set up in a more simple manner.

Kalimac · 03-26-2002, 01:28 AM

Thanks, Maril . I'll admit to missing the double treachery in advance as well - though I can sort of understand cutting it, since even when reading the book for the first time it's a little confusing, since you're having to figure everything out backwards as well as see it through Pippin's rather dazed perspective, and of course in a movie you can't flip the page back and re-read. They should have some Orc infighting though - I hope they'll keep the quarreling scenes between the Orcs when Frodo is imprisoned in the tower of Cirith Ungol. If nothing else it'll be a little difficult otherwise to explain why the place is so conveniently 99% empty when Sam arrives there.For subplots to be cut - Ioreth could go without a problem, but that's a very small bit. I'm fairly divided on the Entwives. They add a lot to Treebeard's characterization - and the feeling of ultimate sadness that there is about the Ents ("There are no Entings.") On the other hand, in terms of plot development, they do absolutely nothing for it. Still thinking about that one...

Thinhyandoiel · 03-26-2002, 01:28 AM

I, personally, would love to have that Gimli and Legolas competition at Helm's Deep remain. I heard it does, so I'm not worried. Another thing I them to keep is the Scouring of the Shire, but that's not gonna be in there, so I'm a bit disappointed, and curious all the same. How is PJ gonna tie everything together without it? And is Frodo and Bilbo still going to the Gray Havens with the Elves? Are they going to show Sam going to? Ah, the insanity of it all! I can't wait another 9 months!

Birdland · 03-26-2002, 08:11 AM

I haven't seen any suggestion of the Paths of the Dead, yet, so I'm assuming P.J. didn't go down that road. Which also means we're going to lose the whole subplot of Aragorn overrunning the ships of the Corsairs and sailing them up the Anduin to the defense of Gondor.Which means say bye-bye to any reference to the re-awakening of sea-longing in Legolas.Of course, I could be wrong. Has anyone seen photos of the Paths of the Dead scenes anywhere?

Orodhromeus · 03-26-2002, 11:12 AM

I haven't, but I haven't seen anything RotK-related neither (apart from a dead Nazgûl pic). I'd like to see the scene where all Gondorians ask Aragorn to heal them & naming Aragorn Elessar/Elfstone as it was predicted, that was sheer genious! As Gimli & Legolas's body count can serve as comical relief, we can count on it being in TTT. Maybe Aragorn won't cross the Paths of the Dead but there should be a fight at Pelargir or a fight involving Corsairs, as the moment when the Battle of the Pelennor is about to be lost is a very tense moment & could make a strong point in the movie.I hope they don't cut everything from the moment when the Ring is destroyed to directly the Havens. Without the scouring, the storyline is basically finished there, so if they do cut there will be not much left to fill a 3 hour long movie.Also, do you think the next 2 will last 3 hours as FotR? I certainly hope so. It's about RotK I'm the most worried about.

pippin_took0 · 03-26-2002, 12:30 PM

I hope it lasts longer! When will they learn, people don't CARE how long the film is, if it's a good story, they'll bear with you for that time! And if they don't like it, well they can just walk out of the cinema and it'll be their loss. Hmph. That's my rant over for today.

Tigerlily Gamgee · 03-26-2002, 01:15 PM

I, too, really want to see Gimli and Legolas' Orc slaying contest. I really want the Paths of the Dead to be in there, it really creeped me out & I would love to see it presented on the screen. What about the dead marshes that Sam, Frodo & Gollum go through - I think that should be in there. One thing I have been wondering is if they will have the whole ordeal of Pippin and Merry growing taller because of Treebeard's drink. Any thoughts on that???

03-26-2002, 01:50 PM

Apparently, in the Legolas and Gimli competition, Legolas does some 'shield surfing' - I wonder how Gimli will take that?

cheeto · 03-27-2002, 07:10 PM

Legolas surfing in the competition? how would Gimli beat that?I don't see him jumping on a shield...

Lomelinde · 03-27-2002, 07:34 PM

Apparently, at the Battle of Orthanc (I think), in the movie, Legolas jumps on a shield and "surfs" down a flight of stairs while firing arrows every which way. Personally, I can't wait to see that. I would also like to see the destruction of Isengard by the Ents, but that's probably not going to happen. Aaaagh, the angst of waiting!!

Luinsewiel · 03-27-2002, 07:47 PM

Surfing?down the stairs? while shooting arrows? wow! that sounds mighty dangerous I wonder how many special effects/takes that took I have trouble walking down the stairs let alone surfing or shooting arrows I wonder where he learned to do that?[ March 27, 2002: Message edited by: Luinsewiel ]

Marileangorifurnimaluim · 03-27-2002, 08:39 PM

I would be very surprised if Peter Jackson cut out the Paths of the Dead. <UL TYPE=SQUARE><LI>In terms of Cinema, the 'Paths of the Dead' is one of Tolkien's most original and interesting chapters. <LI>In terms of pacing, they're just the right kind of break from the heavy action. <LI>In terms of strategy, they're a great explanation of how Aragorn surprises the hosts of Mordor. <LI>In terms of suspense, the Paths build tension and doubt - "Will Aragorn make it in time? Will Minas Tirith fall?"</UL>I can't imagine any director passing on a few scenes that accomplish so much.I suspect he will show them in the RotK, since they really have more to do with the battle of Pelennor Field than anything in the Two Towers, which is mostly about Rohan and Isengard. -Maril

Kalimac · 03-28-2002, 09:46 PM

Not to mention that "The Paths of Dead" answers a question that would otherwise be on the lips of every moviegoer: "Hey, where did he get the army from?" Seriously, without the Paths of the Dead (unless, God help us, Arwen arrives at the last second with multiple battalions of Elves) you'd be hard-pressed to explain where all those reinforcements came from, considering the state that both Minas Tirith and Rohan are in. And as for cutting subplots - forgive me if anyone mentioned this before, but how about the subplot with Eowyn falling in love with Aragorn? I would like to see that kept in, but the more I think about it the more cuttable (from a director's point of view) it seems. She warns him about the Paths, but that wouldn't have to be because of love, just rationality. Her "crush" so to speak, never develops into anything bigger; certainly it's never reciprocated. The explanation for Eowyn's sadness could simply be made that her brother has been thrown in prison and she's been kept at home looking after a prematurely-moribund Theoden when she feels her true calling to be that of a shield-maiden. Then at the end, presto, along comes Faramir and she marries him. No need to bring the fruitless crush on Aragorn into things at all. Any other thoughts?[ March 28, 2002: Message edited by: Kalimac ]

Nevfeniel · 03-28-2002, 09:58 PM

The cutting of Eowyn's crush is definitely possible, but I never thought of it. I guess it probably will be cut. *sigh*

ElanorGamgee · 03-28-2002, 10:03 PM

From what I've heard of the trailer for "The Two Towers," I'm pretty sure that Éowyn's crush will be included. I think I read something about her looking sad and brushing Aragorn's hand or something. I guess we'll find out tomorrow...

03-26-2002, 12:54 AM	#1
Kalimac Candle of the Marshes Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Flyover Country Posts: 780	The Subplot Vanishes! This is a fairly minor topic but it's one I've been thinking about; as everyone here probably knows, the scene with Galadriel giving gifts to the entire Fellowship was cut, but will be included on the DVD. Presumably this scene will demonstrate the fact that Gloin develops what you could only call a world-class crush on Galadriel (I was actually really sorry not to see it in the movie proper, especially considering how it had been set up in the scene where he says "here's a Dwarf she won't ensnare so easily.") So I'm wondering a couple of things; first of all, since obviously you can't have Gimli threatening to kill Eomer for speaking slightingly of Galadriel in the TTT movie proper (since people who'd only seen FOTR in theaters would have no idea why he had apparently changed his mind about her just at that moment) will they just include some extra Gimli-and-Galadriel related scenes in the TTT and ROTK "special edition" DVDs? It would be a nice way to be consistent, OTOH it would be a little odd to have an Incredible Disappearing Subplot that you could presumably never be aware of unless you got the DVD.<P>Second question is more general; which subplots do you hope will be included in TTT and ROTK? And which could ones could you see cut with minimal regrets? Going on the assumption, of course, that some stuff has to be cut no matter how much we'd all like to see every line of Aragorn arguing with people about the proper name for athelas or kingsfoil or whatever it is. Any thoughts? __________________ Father, dear Father, if you see fit, We'll send my love to college for one year yet Tie blue ribbons all about his head, To let the ladies know that he's married.

03-26-2002, 01:02 AM	#2
Marileangorifurnimaluim Eerie Forest Spectre Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Buried in scrolls of fanfiction Posts: 798	Kalimac, great topic. <P>I would like to see the discord between Grishnahk and Ugluk, indicating the Double treachery of Saruman. Alas, I fear it's not to be. The good and evil has been set up in a more simple manner. __________________ Deserves death! I daresay he does... And some die that deserve life. Can you give it to them?

03-26-2002, 01:28 AM	#3
Kalimac Candle of the Marshes Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Flyover Country Posts: 780	Thanks, Maril . I'll admit to missing the double treachery in advance as well - though I can sort of understand cutting it, since even when reading the book for the first time it's a little confusing, since you're having to figure everything out backwards as well as see it through Pippin's rather dazed perspective, and of course in a movie you can't flip the page back and re-read. They should have some Orc infighting though - I hope they'll keep the quarreling scenes between the Orcs when Frodo is imprisoned in the tower of Cirith Ungol. If nothing else it'll be a little difficult otherwise to explain why the place is so conveniently 99% empty when Sam arrives there.<P>For subplots to be cut - Ioreth could go without a problem, but that's a very small bit. I'm fairly divided on the Entwives. They add a lot to Treebeard's characterization - and the feeling of ultimate sadness that there is about the Ents ("There are no Entings.") On the other hand, in terms of plot development, they do absolutely nothing for it. Still thinking about that one... __________________ Father, dear Father, if you see fit, We'll send my love to college for one year yet Tie blue ribbons all about his head, To let the ladies know that he's married.

03-26-2002, 01:28 AM	#4
Thinhyandoiel Wight Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 187	I, personally, would love to have that Gimli and Legolas competition at Helm's Deep remain. I heard it does, so I'm not worried. Another thing I them to keep is the Scouring of the Shire, but that's <B>not</B> gonna be in there, so I'm a bit disappointed, and curious all the same. How is PJ gonna tie everything together without it? And is Frodo and Bilbo still going to the Gray Havens with the Elves? Are they going to show Sam going to? Ah, the insanity of it all! I can't wait another 9 months! __________________ In gwidh ristennen, i fae narchannen I lach Anor ed ardhon gwannen Caled veleg, ethuiannen

03-26-2002, 08:11 AM	#5
Birdland Ghastly Neekerbreeker Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: the banks of the mighty Scioto Posts: 1,751	I haven't seen any suggestion of the Paths of the Dead, yet, so I'm assuming P.J. didn't go down that road. Which also means we're going to lose the whole subplot of Aragorn overrunning the ships of the Corsairs and sailing them up the Anduin to the defense of Gondor.<P>Which means say bye-bye to any reference to the re-awakening of sea-longing in Legolas.<P>Of course, I could be wrong. Has anyone seen photos of the Paths of the Dead scenes anywhere?

03-26-2002, 11:12 AM	#6
Orodhromeus Wight Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Greece Posts: 106	I haven't, but I haven't seen anything RotK-related neither (apart from a dead Nazgûl pic). I'd like to see the scene where all Gondorians ask Aragorn to heal them & naming Aragorn Elessar/Elfstone as it was predicted, that was sheer genious!<BR>As Gimli & Legolas's body count can serve as comical relief, we can count on it being in TTT. Maybe Aragorn won't cross the Paths of the Dead but there should be a fight at Pelargir or a fight involving Corsairs, as the moment when the Battle of the Pelennor is about to be lost is a very tense moment & could make a strong point in the movie.<P>I hope they don't cut everything from the moment when the Ring is destroyed to directly the Havens. Without the scouring, the storyline is basically finished there, so if they do cut there will be not much left to fill a 3 hour long movie.<P>Also, do you think the next 2 will last 3 hours as FotR? I certainly hope so. It's about RotK I'm the most worried about.

03-26-2002, 12:30 PM	#7
pippin_took0 Haunting Spirit Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Middle Earth Posts: 82	I hope it lasts longer! When will they learn, people don't CARE how long the film is, if it's a good story, they'll bear with you for that time! And if they don't like it, well they can just walk out of the cinema and it'll be their loss.<BR>Hmph. That's my rant over for today.

03-26-2002, 01:15 PM	#8
Tigerlily Gamgee Hostess of Spirits Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Meduseld Posts: 1,055	I, too, really want to see Gimli and Legolas' Orc slaying contest. I really want the Paths of the Dead to be in there, it really creeped me out & I would love to see it presented on the screen. What about the dead marshes that Sam, Frodo & Gollum go through - I think that should be in there.<BR>One thing I have been wondering is if they will have the whole ordeal of Pippin and Merry growing taller because of Treebeard's drink. Any thoughts on that??? __________________ ~ ExerciseJunky.com (Hobbits fitness of choice!)~ ~Lady of Rohan: An Eowyn Fansite ~ ~The NEW/OLD Barrow Downs Photo Page~

03-26-2002, 01:50 PM	#9
starbreeze Guest Posts: n/a	Apparently, in the Legolas and Gimli competition, Legolas does some 'shield surfing' - I wonder how Gimli will take that?

03-27-2002, 07:10 PM	#10
cheeto Pile O'Bones Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 20	Legolas surfing in the competition?<BR>how would Gimli beat that?I don't see him jumping on a shield...

03-27-2002, 07:34 PM	#11
Lomelinde Haunting Spirit Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Ha! Wouldn't you like to know? Posts: 80	Apparently, at the Battle of Orthanc (I think), in the movie, Legolas jumps on a shield and "surfs" down a flight of stairs while firing arrows every which way. Personally, I can't wait to see that. I would also like to see the destruction of Isengard by the Ents, but that's probably not going to happen. Aaaagh, the angst of waiting!! __________________ The Dwarf breathes so loud I could've shot him in the dark, drunk, blindfolded and hanging upside down from a tree.

03-27-2002, 07:47 PM	#12
Luinsewiel Haunting Spirit Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: The Great Grey-Green Greasy Limpopo River, All Set About With Fever Trees Posts: 57	<I>Surfing?</I>down the <I>stairs?</I> while shooting arrows? wow! that sounds mighty dangerous I wonder how many special effects/takes that took I have trouble walking down the stairs let alone surfing or shooting arrows I wonder where he learned to do that?<p>[ March 27, 2002: Message edited by: Luinsewiel ] __________________ Take David Suzuki's nature challenge today ---> www.davidsuzuki.org

03-27-2002, 08:39 PM	#13
Marileangorifurnimaluim Eerie Forest Spectre Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Buried in scrolls of fanfiction Posts: 798	I would be very surprised if Peter Jackson cut out the Paths of the Dead. <BR><UL TYPE=SQUARE><LI>In terms of Cinema, the 'Paths of the <BR>Dead' is one of Tolkien's most original and interesting chapters. <BR><LI>In terms of pacing, they're just the right kind of break from the heavy action. <BR><LI>In terms of strategy, they're a great explanation of how Aragorn surprises the hosts of Mordor.<BR><LI>In terms of suspense, the Paths build tension and doubt - "Will Aragorn make it in time? Will Minas Tirith fall?"</UL><P>I can't imagine any director passing on a few scenes that accomplish so much.<P>I suspect he will show them in the RotK, since they really have more to do with the battle of Pelennor Field than anything in the Two Towers, which is mostly about Rohan and Isengard. <P>-Maril __________________ Deserves death! I daresay he does... And some die that deserve life. Can you give it to them?

03-28-2002, 09:46 PM	#14
Kalimac Candle of the Marshes Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Flyover Country Posts: 780	Not to mention that "The Paths of Dead" answers a question that would otherwise be on the lips of every moviegoer: "Hey, where did he get the army from?" Seriously, without the Paths of the Dead (unless, God help us, Arwen arrives at the last second with multiple battalions of Elves) you'd be hard-pressed to explain where all those reinforcements came from, considering the state that both Minas Tirith and Rohan are in. <P>And as for cutting subplots - forgive me if anyone mentioned this before, but how about the subplot with Eowyn falling in love with Aragorn? I would like to see that kept in, but the more I think about it the more cuttable (from a director's point of view) it seems. She warns him about the Paths, but that wouldn't have to be because of love, just rationality. Her "crush" so to speak, never develops into anything bigger; certainly it's never reciprocated. The explanation for Eowyn's sadness could simply be made that her brother has been thrown in prison and she's been kept at home looking after a prematurely-moribund Theoden when she feels her true calling to be that of a shield-maiden. Then at the end, presto, along comes Faramir and she marries him. No need to bring the fruitless crush on Aragorn into things at all. Any other thoughts?<p>[ March 28, 2002: Message edited by: Kalimac ] __________________ Father, dear Father, if you see fit, We'll send my love to college for one year yet Tie blue ribbons all about his head, To let the ladies know that he's married.

03-28-2002, 09:58 PM	#15
Nevfeniel Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Mithlond Posts: 783	The cutting of Eowyn's crush is definitely possible, but I never thought of it. I guess it probably will be cut. sigh __________________ Consider the purr a variety of audible tranquilizer. [. . .] For a few of us, there is one more purr, a secret purr. When we combine our secret purrs, we produce the Purr of Power. And that is simply the amplified amity we feel as furred and purred beings.

03-28-2002, 10:03 PM	#16
ElanorGamgee Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 314	From what I've heard of the trailer for "The Two Towers," I'm pretty sure that Éowyn's crush will be included. I think I read something about her looking sad and brushing Aragorn's hand or something. I guess we'll find out tomorrow... __________________ Soli Deo Gloria