Them Dwarven folk.

[zxcvbn]

Originally Posted by Aganzir

Smoking of pipe-weed spread among Dwarves from Bree, says the Prologue. I don't remember what else has been said about pipe-weed, but it's hard to believe it grows only near the Shire, so trade isn't necessarily needed for the dwarves to get it.

Bree is even farther from the Blue Mountains than the Shire. And it's unlikely that the Dwarves grew it themselves, as it needed open spaces and lots of sunlight. And the Elves didn't smoke, so they wouldn't grow it either. So trade it is.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Lommy brings up a good point - fresh food doesn't keep long, so if Dwarves bought it from others, the producers would need to live fairly close to them. After all, there were no refrigerators nor trucks with freezer compartments in Middle-earth!

Pipeweed is a different matter - it could be kept for a considerable time and was transported in barrels. The fact that Dwarves had pipeweed would indicate that they did come to or near the Shire occasionally, but not necessarily frequently.

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Estelyn Telcontar

Pipeweed is a different matter - it could be kept for a considerable time and was transported in barrels. The fact that Dwarves had pipeweed would indicate that they did come to or near the Shire occasionally, but not necessarily frequently.

They did - one should not forget the fact that curious Hobbits got most of their news of the big world from Dwarves.

[zxcvbn]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

I know. But it takes time to go from the Shire to the Blue Mountains, and food doesn't stay good for a long time (assuming there were no preservatives in M-E ). Of course the Dwarves could just buy flour and dried meat & fruits and other goods that last a bit longer and eat only that, but I can't see them going on such an ascetic diet.

Okay...good point there.

Exactly how long would it take to transport goods from the Shire to the Blue Mtns by horse cart? Let's say a week. Grains, cereals and nuts can be stored for several months, meat can be preserved for weeks by salting and smoking(and still taste good), and fruits and vegetables can be pickled, so it's still possible. And if the Dwarves wanted fresh fruits and veggies they could buy it from the Elves, who are better at growing them than any other race.

[Aganzir]

I don't think (even food) trade with hobbits is a completely impossible thought. It just doesn't make sense that the dwarves had no way to get food without trading, which I think is what you zxcvbn are saying (or at least coming up with points that back it up).

I bet it takes more people & resources to travel quite a distance just to buy food than it takes to farming, keeping of cattle, hunting or whatever. And dwarven products would sell even without barter.

How many dwarves live in the Blue Mountains anyway? Even though dwarves were a dwindling race at the end of the Third Age, I dare to say there were still more than could be feeded with traded food only.

And how much food does a dwarf consume per day? How much does a dwarf work per day? Buying all their food would soon have made their work unprofitable.

[zxcvbn]

Originally Posted by Aganzir

I don't think (even food) trade with hobbits is a completely impossible thought. It just doesn't make sense that the dwarves had no way to get food without trading, which I think is what you zxcvbn are saying (or at least coming up with points that back it up).

What I'm saying is that IMHO the Dwarves were not food producers. I suppose they hunted, gathered wild roots, caught fish and maybe cultivated mushrooms inside their mounntain halls, but I don't think they did any farming or herding if they could help it, and usually obtaiined most(not all, but most) of their food through trade.

I bet it takes more people & resources to travel quite a distance just to buy food than it takes to farming, keeping of cattle, hunting or whatever. And dwarven products would sell even without barter.

How many dwarves live in the Blue Mountains anyway? Even though dwarves were a dwindling race at the end of the Third Age, I dare to say there were still more than could be feeded with traded food only.

And how much food does a dwarf consume per day? How much does a dwarf work per day? Buying all their food would soon have made their work unprofitable.

I always thought that it was the food suppliers who were disadvantaged. Dwarven products(tools, weapons, jewellry, road-building, stone-work etc.) tend to be rather expensive. In comparision food is quite cheap. Notice that the Dwarves of Erebor were the ones who profited most from their trade with Men. None of the Northmen were anywhere near as wealthy as the Dwarves. Bard, who recieved only one-fourteenth of the treasure of Thrain, was said to still have "wealth exceeding that of many mortal(meaning human) kings".

Heh. I'm really enjoying this discussion.

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by zxcvbn

but I don't think they did any farming or herding if they could help it, and usually obtaiined most(not all, but most) of their food through trade.

If they could help it, yes- but I think they rather did farming and herding than were completely dependant on outsiders.

I always thought that it was the food suppliers who were disadvantaged. Dwarven products(tools, weapons, jewellry, road-building, stone-work etc.) tend to be rather expensive. In comparision food is quite cheap.

I agree, but only in case dwarves produced some food also on their own. It requires quite much food to keep the whole society content; and if they bought most of it, they would have had to buy it from many farmers and pay each enough. I know the dwarves were good tradesmen, but we must remember all of those who ate didn't contribute to the making of trading goods.

Heh. I'm really enjoying this discussion.

I enjoy every discussion that concerns dwarves.

[Groin Redbeard]

Originally Posted by Aganzir

If they could help it, yes- but I think they rather did farming and herding than were completely dependant on outsiders.

Good point. Is is possible that they could bring livestock into their mountain halls, and simply bring the supplies to feeding the animals inside?

I like zxcvbn's idea about the mushrooms.

I enjoy every discussion that concerns dwarves.

Ahhh... a man after my own heart!

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by Groin Redbeard

Good point. Is is possible that they could bring livestock into their mountain halls, and simply bring the supplies to feeding the animals inside?

I think that's quite possible (and it brings in another question: ventilation systems). The most logical scenario is that the animals spent summers outside, guarded by a few herdsmen. Most of them were butchered in the autumn and salted or smoked, others spent the winter inside the mountain. Calves were born in the early spring.
It requires so much fodder that it wouldn't be profitable to keep them inside all year.

[zxcvbn]

The reason I don't think Dwarves were given to farming is because their halls were not well-aired, and were mostly cut off from sunlight. Plants need both fresh air and abundant sunlight to grow, and unless the Dwarves had UV lamps like those used in modern greenhouses it would not be possible to obtain a good crop underground. Plus I don't think the rocky, gravelly soil down there would be very fertile.

The only exception is mushrooms and other fungi, which grow well under such conditions inside dark caves.

[Aganzir]

Ah, but I didn't think either that they were growing plants inside a mountain. Rather that they had some fields on the slopes and in the vales.

[Groin Redbeard]

Plus even if they did have crop fields I'm sure we will never find out. Dwarves love to keep things a secret.

[alatar]

I too have been wondering where those Dwarves got all of their food. Think of the fair city of the Dwarrowdelf - in its hay day, more than a few busy dwarves lived there. Did they eat much of what Hollin produced? Then what of the elves? How many acres were given over in these lands to food production/procurement, and how many were required to keep a dwarf on its feet all day?

...

So why were prehistoric bugs so big (imagine a bug with a wing span of over two feet/70 cm!)? It's speculated that, with an atmospheric oxygen concentration up to 35 percent, bugs could be bigger back then. Did you know that bugs breathe through tiny holes and tubes and sacs that passively or actively get the air inside the bug? This ventilation mechanism limits the size of the bug - too big, and oxygen can't get to those cells deep inside the bug, those cells die and then...We, in case you haven't noticed, use our lungs and heart to circulate the oxygen around - and to rid ourselves of carbon dioxide, the same thing those bugs have to do.

What does this have to do with dwarves?

I've been wondering just how far away from an air source they can tunnel before they no longer can get air. Sure, Gandalf and company note air holes in Moria when they are camped outside the Chamber of Mazarbul, but what of the Mines? As with the Romans, surely the dwarves encountered the ventilation and heat issues that plague miners even today. Toxic gases can be released when mining, water has to be diverted to somewhere, and when they lit fires in the upper chambers, you end up with chimneys sucking out the air from below.

Deep they delved them.

So, that said, did the dwarves, seemingly with scant food resources and possibly low oxygen concentrations, have the ability to 'live on less?'

[Groin Redbeard]

I was thinking about starting a thread about this, but I think this is as good a place as any to discuss it.

What power did the dwarven rings posses? Just like Narya was called the Ring of Fire and Nenya was called the Ring of Water and the Ring of Adamant. I know that all the rings of power had the strength to govern each race, but is that all that they could do?

Yay, 300th post!

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Groin Redbeard

What power did the dwarven rings posses? Just like Narya was called the Ring of Fire and Nenya was called the Ring of Water and the Ring of Adamant. I know that all the rings of power had the strength to govern each race, but is that all that they could do?

Yay, 300th post!

Congratulations

Concerning the Rings: I am not sure if there is much said anywhere, but one thing I can remember for sure is that in the Appendices to LotR, there is said about the Ring of Durin's tribe that "it needed gold to breed gold", therefore, it probably was capable of - somehow - increase the wealth of the owner. I don't imagine it the way that i.e. the Ring would "generate" a pile of gold every morning (though even this is not totally impossible - in the Norse mythology, Odin's ring did similar thing; and some inspiration here could be imaginable); but I think rather it helped the person, somehow gave him luck in trade, making profits, finding deposits of gold etc. You may look there what's the exact quote; it is in the Appendix A III in the part about Thorin in exile in the Blue Mountains. I can't look it up, I'm leaving in a few minutes for an RPG-weekend

[Groin Redbeard]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

You may look there what's the exact quote; it is in the Appendix A III in the part about Thorin in exile in the Blue Mountains. I can't look it up, I'm leaving in a few minutes for an RPG-weekend

Thanks Legate, you've been a big help as usual!

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Groin Redbeard

Thanks Legate, you've been a big help as usual!

Maybe this self-promotion here would be helpful as well.

[Kuruharan]

I think the idea that they purchased all (or even the major deal of) their food is quite impossible. Roughly generalised, to be selfsupporting is the ideal of every great kingdom, and I can see it apply to dwarves much better than any humans or elves.
-Aganzir

I guess it all depends on how you define their “kingdom.” When the dwarves were strong they seemed to have a tendency to regard the other peoples living near them as being their subjects to some extent and from some of the descriptions its not unreasonable to assume that these other peoples might not have disagreed with that assessment. So the dwarves may not have seen it as being dependent on outsiders to get their food but were rather relying on resources they regarded as their own…at least at times when they were strong.

Maybe they were just poor at farming and herding?

Yeah, neither were particular strong points.

[zxcvbn]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

I guess it all depends on how you define their “kingdom.” When the dwarves were strong they seemed to have a tendency to regard the other peoples living near them as being their subjects to some extent and from some of the descriptions its not unreasonable to assume that these other peoples might not have disagreed with that assessment. So the dwarves may not have seen it as being dependent on outsiders to get their food but were rather relying on resources they regarded as their own…at least at times when they were strong.

A very good point, Kuruharan. Re-reading the books, I find that whenever there were 'lesser' Men living near Dwarves, they held the Dwarves in great reverence(something to this effect was stated in Of Dwarves and Men) and the Dwarven kings also seemed to regard the Men as their own subjects/vassals(to some extent). For example, Thorin and Co had more authority among the Lake-men than their own Master, and it pleased them whenever they heard the Lake-men singing their praises or treating them like Lords.

As such, it wouldn't seem wrong to the Dwarves(considering their preference for crafts rather than food-growing) to buy all their food from the Men, especially if the Men were literally living right outside their Gates(Dale).

[Kuruharan]

For a little more information on this system and an explaination of how it could go horribly wrong look here.

[MaultheStoor]

There are no Dwarf women in Lord of the Rings Online. Hmmm...if Dwarven women are so alike to dwarven men, does that mean that you could go on a date with a Dwarf and not know whether they were male or female?!? Creepy...

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by MaultheStoor

if Dwarven women are so alike to dwarven men, does that mean that you could go on a date with a Dwarf and not know whether they were male or female?!? Creepy...

Terry Pratchett definitely had fun with this...

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by MaultheStoor

There are no Dwarf women in Lord of the Rings Online. Hmmm...if Dwarven women are so alike to dwarven men, does that mean that you could go on a date with a Dwarf and not know whether they were male or female?!? Creepy...

As a matter of fact, all dwarves are bisexual. It doesn't matter whether a dwarf lives her/his life with a man or a woman, because dwarf children sprout from holes in the ground anyway.

Seriously, though, at least dwarves themselves should be able to distinguish males from females even if the other races couldn't do that.

[Groin Redbeard]

Originally Posted by Aganzir

As a matter of fact, all dwarves are bisexual. It doesn't matter whether a dwarf lives her/his life with a man or a woman, because dwarf children sprout from holes in the ground anyway.

Seriously, though, at least dwarves themselves should be able to distinguish males from females even if the other races couldn't do that.

I should certainly hope so!