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10-27-2022, 05:22 AM | #1 |
Haunting Spirit
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 99
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Unfair criticism of ROP Eldar.
Seen many complaining about their short hair and the lack of the otherworldliness, ethereal about them.
I will adress the first complaint: Short hair. If you look closely of all the elves represented in the show, the majority have thick to medium to long hair. Very few have buzz cut like Arondir. Here is a picture of all the elves I consider having medium to long hair: The second complaint: Lack of otherwordliness That is simple to answer. The 3rd age elves were fewer and were basically in isolation from anyone, so for the eyes of any mortal beings they will feel otherwordly and ethereal. Also all elven rings were present and contributed to magical vibe in their realms and themselves. 2nd is a different age where elves were a normal sight to see. |
10-27-2022, 05:40 AM | #2 |
Spirit of Mist
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Regarding the short hair of the Eldar portrayed in RoP, I was reading the expanded version of the tale of Turin's stay in Doriath and note Saeros' comments when Turin returned from the north marches. Saeros teased Turin for his long, unkempt hair and encouraged him to avoid having his hair cover his ears. This implies that some Elves had short hair.
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11-01-2022, 12:04 AM | #3 |
Emperor of the South Pole
Join Date: Dec 2002
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The shorter hair on elves in Rings of Power doesn't bother me as much as it did at first. They seemed to portray them well enough. They could have styled the ears much better though.
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11-01-2022, 05:39 PM | #4 |
Haunting Spirit
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 85
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"long" hair for elf guys and "longer" hair for elf girls
Unfair Criticism?
Possibly not.
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"If it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic." -- Tweedledee |
11-01-2022, 06:24 PM | #5 | |
Haunting Spirit
Join Date: Dec 2012
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I tried to lampoon this Elvish-warrior "hair" thing eleven years ago.
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"If it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic." -- Tweedledee |
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11-01-2022, 06:45 PM | #6 | ||
Blossom of Dwimordene
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This is actually an interesting book foray - what do the texts say about male hairstyles; I distinctly recall that some wore braids - so at least some had longer hair. But when it comes to RoP, I feel like the hairstyles are the least of the show's problems.
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You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera |
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11-02-2022, 03:00 AM | #7 | |
Overshadowed Eagle
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NoME has a whole chapter called "Hair", but it's half a page long. It says that "Ingwe had curling golden hair. Finwe (and Miriel) had long dark hair, so had Feanor and all the Noldor, save by intermarriage..." Again, there's ambiguity: a literal reading implies that long hair is a genetic trait, and full-blooded Noldor were literally incapable of cutting theirs. More likely is that "and all the Noldor" refers to the colour, not the length. Even taken literally, I think the only RoP character who would violate this is Celebrimbor, assuming he is actually Noldorin (remember that Tolkien also wrote of him as Gondolindrim, and there's even a late text making him a Teler of Aman!). Elrond is only fractionally Noldor, Finrod only a quarter, Arondir is presumptively Sindar/Nandor, and Galadriel and Gil-Galad have long hair anyway. hS
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11-02-2022, 05:33 AM | #8 | |
Blossom of Dwimordene
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You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera |
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11-02-2022, 07:47 AM | #9 | |
Overshadowed Eagle
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hS
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Have you burned the ships that could bear you back again? ~Finrod: The Rock Opera |
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11-02-2022, 09:21 AM | #10 |
Loremaster of Annúminas
Join Date: Oct 2006
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It may be that Elvish grooming standards included long hair combed behind or around the ears, like Alan Lee portrayed it (and thus PJ's movies). Turin's here was more like Tom Hanks' in Castaway. Note that Saeros casts a comb on the table., not a pair of shears
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11-02-2022, 09:43 AM | #11 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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That's how I read this passage: we have the comb plus "untended as a thicket of brambles." A thicket of brambles gives me an image of a wild, matted thickness that's difficult to pass through -- and thus the "jibe" being that even sound cannot easily penetrate Turin's hair: "And maybe if your ears were uncovered you would heed better what is said to you." In short, it's not about length to me, but brambleness |
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11-02-2022, 07:39 PM | #12 | |
Blossom of Dwimordene
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You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera |
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11-04-2022, 12:51 PM | #13 | |
Loremaster of Annúminas
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Well, maybe I'm old-school, but back in my day American men nearly always carried a pocket comb (remember Fonzie?)
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The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didn’t know, and when he didn’t know it. |
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11-04-2022, 04:07 PM | #14 | |
Dead Serious
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Still, cellular service in Menegroth is notoriously bad, so perhaps Saeros had the pocket space.
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11-04-2022, 05:09 PM | #15 |
Curmudgeonly Wordwraith
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Given the fan-fiction propounded in ROP, the combs are evidently cast Mithril, to mantain Elvish hirsute body and bounce.
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11-04-2022, 07:52 PM | #16 |
Blossom of Dwimordene
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Mithril or otherwise, are we concluding that it was routine practice for Elves to fix up their hair a few times a day? For whatever reason the idea seems to tickle me. I'm just envisioning Saeros touching up the cowlicks with a bronze mirror in the lavatory...
ETA: as an unofficial "poll of opinions", I googled Saeros fan art. The vast majority portrays him with long hair, a couple pictures have him with shoulder length-ish hair. In every case his hair is at least as long as Turin's, and usually longer. Oh the irony.
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You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera Last edited by Galadriel55; 11-04-2022 at 07:59 PM. |
11-08-2022, 06:58 PM | #17 |
Shade of Carn Dűm
Join Date: Jul 2000
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Regarding Elven Hair:
"All the Eldar had beautiful hair (and were especially attracted by hair of exceptional loveliness), but the Noldor were not specially remarkable in this respect, and there is no reference to Finwe as having had hair of exceptional length, abundance, or beauty beyond the measure of his people." PoMe, Shibboleth of Feanor In a discussion of the meaning of Finwe's name (fin = hair in this iteration), specifically references Finwe's hair as not exceptionally more long or abundant than the hair of the other Eldar (who all had beautiful hair). "But most it was their wont to sail in their swift ships upon the waters of the Bay of Elvenhome, or to walk in the waves upon the shore with their long hair gleaming like foam in the light beyond the hill." Morgoth's Ring, Later Quenta Simarillion 1 The Teleri (who are Eldar) had long hair. "Finwe (and Miriel) had long dark hair, so had Feanor and all the Noldor, save by intermarriage..." NoMe, Hair The Noldor (who are Eldar) had long hair. "In general the Sindar appear to have very closely resembled the Exiles, being dark-haired, strong and tall, but lithe. Indeed they could hardly be told apart except by their eyes; for the eyes of all the Elves that had dwelt in Aman impressed those of Middle-earth by their piercing brightness. For which reason the Sindar often called them Lachend, pl. Lechind ‘flame-eyed’." WotJ, Quendi and Eldar The Sindar, who are Teleri (who have long hair) in origin, look like the Noldor, who have long hair. "Their gleaming hair was twined with flowers; green and white gems glinted on their collars and their belts; and their faces and their songs were filled with mirth. Loud and clear and fair were those songs, and out stepped Thorin into their midst." The Hobbit, Flies and Spiders The Silvan Elves, who are Teleri (long hair) in origin, have hair long enough to twine flowers into. The Song of Aelfwine "There blowing free unbraided hair is meshed with beams of Moon and Sun, And twined within those tresses fair a gold and silver sheen is spun, As fleet and white the feet go bare, and lissom limbs in dances run, Shimmering in the shining air: such loveliness to look upon No mortal man hath ever won, though foam upon the furthest sea He dared, or sought behind the Sun for winds unearthly flowing free. O! Shore beyond the Shadowy Sea! O! Land where still the Edhil are!" Lost Road, FNII Long hair for Elves implied by them unbraiding it and letting it blow freely in the wind.
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Tar-Elenion |
11-16-2022, 09:29 PM | #18 |
Spirit of Mist
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Well thought out, Tar Elenion. But interpretation of JRRT's writing is necessarily in the "eye" of the reader (am I mixing... something?). Years ago, I visualized Elves as wearing Prince Valiant-style coifs. Later, I may have wavered between carefully groomed and shorter and shoulder length. It depends upon my mood. However, all should agree that Strider's hair was a long, unkempt mess. And maybe there is an analogy there to Turin?
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Beleriand, Beleriand, the borders of the Elven-land. |
11-19-2022, 05:39 PM | #19 | |
Cryptic Aura
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I am afraid I seem to have developed an earworm.
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I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away. |
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11-19-2022, 06:18 PM | #20 |
Spirit of Mist
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Bęthberry, Someone I was with was just singing that song a few days ago.
Returning to the topic at hand, and, perhaps a bit more serious than my last post, some pertinent information from Vinyar Tengwar Vol. 6. VT, refering to the "Etymologies," lists three words in Quenya for "hair," locse, (hair), finde (braid or tress), and fasse (shaggy). I do not know if this supports or negates anyone's views regarding the length of the hair of male Elves.
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Beleriand, Beleriand, the borders of the Elven-land. |
11-19-2022, 07:29 PM | #21 | |||
Haunting Spirit
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 85
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Will it Stop by Itself?
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How any of this relates to Elvish hair styles over millennia of time -- static. evolving, or cyclical -- I cannot say. In the present circumstances, as presented in the Rings of Impotence television series, Elvish "males" like Elrond, Celebrimbor, Finrod, and Gil-Galad, for example, look rather effeminate, if not gay, with their "less long than Legolas" hair styles, although they might have looked that way no matter how long or short their tresses. Anyway, not to worry, because -- circling back to our opening earworm -- The Cowsills said to just let it grow: Quote:
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"If it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic." -- Tweedledee |
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11-19-2022, 10:02 PM | #22 | |||
Cryptic Aura
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 5,996
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Of the top of my head I cannot recall any significant passages about hair in Old English literature or in Middle English lit either (that does not mean there aren't any which might relate) but there is one very significant passage which Tolkien no doubt knew very well. Quote:
EDIT: I would be remiss for failing to add the obvious symbolism of hair in the difference between the Roundheads and the Cavaliers in the English Civil War.
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I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away. Last edited by Bęthberry; 11-20-2022 at 09:12 AM. |
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11-19-2022, 10:13 PM | #23 |
Spirit of Mist
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Beware the lee shore, indeed.
It seems likely that there is no conclusive answer to be found here. While CSN sang "almost cut my hair, happened just the other day..." I do not feel that is canon...
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Beleriand, Beleriand, the borders of the Elven-land. |
11-20-2022, 02:08 PM | #24 | |
Cryptic Aura
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And that brings us to whether the Harfoots have hairy feet. I can't recall. Disa of course as a non-canonical character does not have a beard.
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I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away. |
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11-25-2022, 11:32 AM | #25 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 1,033
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Tolkien illustrated both Beleg and Gwindor, and thus we can see the long hair.
Okay, it's an early-ish painting, but still. Although I'm guessing, in any case, that some will say these characters were in the wild in the scene depicted, and JRRT maybe took that into account. So erm, there's that |
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