Tol-in-Gaurhoth XXI: Dueling Wizards Werewolf

[Diamond18]

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

And, in the same vein, I would add to the list of mistakes by the good side. Lynching both Sleepy and Oddwen (as well as Loki) for their "suspicious" behaviour was a classic error - committed not once, not twice, but three times! Wolves rarely act that suspiciously. I have learned from experience that it's the ones who act least suspiciously that you should always fear.

While I reserve the right to respectfully disagree about Loki () I was extremely frustrated by the deaths of Sleepy and Oddwen. Sleepy, I did not vote for because I didn't honestly find him wolvish, but I was frustrated enough with him not really explaining his votes or participating in any discussion that I went ahead and voted Lalaith instead of votoing Jenny (which I believe would have got her lynched instead, as I recall the count was Sleepy 3 and Jenny 2 and the clinching vote against Sleepy was cast after mine -- ie I could have made a 3-3 tie in which Jenny was killed). But that was the problem with sticking too closely to my list of likely wolves... I believe it was Morm, Lalaith, Kitanna, and Eomer at the top and when Morm died I was bolstered by this and decided to get Lalaith or die trying. *sigh* The Oddwen vote I am still kicking myself for (Sorry Oddwen!) because I realized even as I committed the act that it was the same bad reasoning that had got an innocent Sleepy killed. But as no one had voted for Lalaith that day, and Lalaith had voted Eomer, I went with my anti-Lalaith stance and voted to save Eomer. That day was a general disaster for me though -- you might (or might not) have noticed that I only posted twice that day, because I was feeling quite frustrated by the whole thing.

It's all Eomer's fault, he's such a bad influence.

Say, does this count as a Lovers victory?

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

A tragic lovers' victory too, as at least one of us is now dead. Where is this story going, LMP?

I was quite pleased with my excellent record of voting only for Werewolves when I was innocent, and then only for innocents when cursed. It's amazing isn't it? This village spilled more Werewolf blood than any other — 5 of the beasts in all — yet still lost to another 3 at the end. This town had it bad...

[Oddwen]

thread post count 1,041, thread views 15,404

This thread's been viewed more than most RPGs.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Man, did LMP miss out on some serious commercial gain.

[JennyHallu]

But what were the hearts for?

[Gurthang]

Okay, I see I need to do a little clearing up...


ATTENTION: MONDO-SUPER-MEGA-UBER IMPORTANT (er...) THING IN THIS POST. YOU DO NOT WANT TO MISS IT!


Okay, first off, LMP, all those little Good Team Fatal errors, those were not my fault. (And don't get me started on my Quirks in the Rules Fatal to the Good Team list. )I mean, that first Night the Seer didn't dream... well, umh... okay, maybe that one was me. But the second time, oh, that one... okay, so maybe that was me again.

Now, as far as the naming innocents, it was Nilp who came out. But he had no point not to. The Evil team obviously knew that he was the unSeer already, so he had no one worth hiding from. I did cringe when he named Firefoot as his innocent.

And that whole family thing... well, I still hold to the fact that my family-gifteds out survived my non-family-gifteds by a ratio of:... oh, that'd be INFINITY, wouldn't it. Something like 9 Days/0 Days. Ironic somehow. True, it was obvious at the end, but they still out survived the others by far.

Okay, sorry, so that wasn't all that important.


HERE'S THE IMPORTANT PART!


I've heard a lot of people comment on the brilliant strategy that Roa used when she turned Valier into a wolf. All credit to her, but that was actually her undoing.

The Day that Valier was lynched, the whole time I was thinking, if Valier is a wolf, then Roa is very likely the Evil Wizard. This was partially because she changed her stance over that Night. The Day Valier came out and said Roa was the Evil Wizard, Roa's response was: "She's just a misguided innocent." The next Day she was all for lynching her.

So Valier is lynched Day 5. At that moment I was so sure that Roa was the Evil Wizard. But here's what killed it, and in my mind was the single biggest rule related factor in our loss(sorry LMP, had to get just one): the Good Team could not PM at Night!

This meant I could not dream of her Night 6. So I took her off the list:

1. So we would not waste a lynch. (And look, we got a wolf!)
2. To throw her off.

Then I waited all Day 6, and all through Night 7 before I got my dream result. Had I been allowed to PM my Seer, I would have known for sure Night 6, and she would have been dead a Day earlier.

Oh, and I want to know this too LMP, what was up with Night 4? Good Team doing too Good?

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by Lommy

I can very well see spawn's reasoning here, but... Am I the only one who finds this amusing?

That was the night that I had a completely different narration all set up with a fascinating bedroom scene involving Nilpaurion, Spawn, and two werewolves (now now, get your mind out of the gutter.... ) I did get to use it for Spawn's death later, but without Nilp. Ah well.

Originally Posted by Diamond

Say, does this count as a Lovers victory?

Yes, I noticed that too. Both lovers, Kitanna and Eomer survived to the end, but as co-werewolves. Go figure.

Originally Posted by Eomer of the Rohirrim[/quote

A tragic lovers' victory too, as at least one of us is now dead. Where is this story going, LMP?

I wanted to have the Shadow offer a werewolf the evil wizard role, as a kind of ironic evil twist. So I wrote in the end-battle. It does suggest that this particular tragedy happened elsewhere in the early third age. It gives me an opening for Dueling Wizards 2, of course! Someday... unless someone else wants to mod it. I think it would be fun to actually play it....

Originally Posted by JennyHallu[/quote

But what were the hearts for?

I didn't work them into the narration as well as I had wanted to, I must confess. The Shadow uses them as a source of power to create the new evil wizard. I could have gotten graphic, but chose not to.

Originally Posted by Gurthang

Oh, and I want to know this too LMP, what was up with Night 4? Good Team doing too Good?

The game was not going the way it was supposed to. And no, that does not mean that the Good Team was going too Good. The fact is, Roa complained that it was unfair. I judged that she was right. What you need to understand, though, is that she only complained about the Hunter rule being vague, and was asking for some kind of redress, such as the Hunter rule being weakened. As you all know by now, I don't like a weak hunter. So I refused to weaken the hunter, but offered an extra curse for the Night. After further thought, I realized that Night One hadn't gone right either, and on my own initiative awarded Roa a third curse for that Night, to make up for the uncursing of Loki, which should not have occurred. Roa even PM'd me to say that in the interest of fair play she was willing to not curse at all the following night. I chose not to go with that option. So all blame for any of that falls upon me, and me alone; it was my decision. And I do stand by it. There were problems with this game, which I figured would be the case, and having played through it, I see what they were, and the next time Dueling Wizards is played, those problems won't recur. All in all, though, I'm really pleased that it went as smoothly as it did.

Originally Posted by Gurthang

....the Good Team could not PM at Night!

Would you support both good and evil teams being allowed to PM all the time? That's the only redress I can see to your complaint.

[Roa_Aoife]

Okay, I'm back! Since I'm sure you're dying to see my strategy, here it is:

Who I picked, When and Why:

Night one
Loki- The much debate Loki was chosen for a few reasons. Pre-game he showed far greater compentancy than most new players who join up. I figurede he'd be a strong player who wouldn't be suspected early on because no-one would believe him to be a good EW choice. (I was right, wasn't I?) Also, I believed that his untested status would make him less likely to be picked by the GW at any point. (There I was really wrong.)

And let me just say that I was amazed no one believed him. That was poor judgement on your parts (yes, Diamond, you too) and showed a distinct lack of thoughtfulness from all of you. Except Nogrod, who did what he was supposed to do. And I was happy to take advantage of it all.

Nogrod- Partly personal, partly practical. I was actually hoping to keep him around as a wolf a lot longer. As he's never been evil before, no one would know what behavior to look for to show him as evil. After his Day One attack on Loki, however, I decided to have some fun and enjoy sweet, sweet revenge for our first game together.

Naria- Naria is a werewolf ninja. Seriously. How many people suspected her up to her death? None. None whatsoever. I'm sure some of you were surprised to find out she was playing. Not because she never posts- oh no- but because of how she posts. You never know she's there until she's killing you. I have to say I was quite sore about losing her to a change in the rules.

Night two
Alcarillo- what can I say? I wanted someone who would survive just long enough to to keep my werewolf population up, but could still be used later either by me or another wolf. (No offense, Alc.)

Night three
Morm- Morm was doing so well, and was just so on top of things, I had to have him on my team. And I was glad that he was. He offered helpful suggestions and player analysis to find gifteds and the GW- he was the one who suggested the attack on Gurthang. He was the most informed of any of my wolves. I was worried that he might be scried by Gurthang, and so I had informed Boromir that if morm was turned back into an ordo he was to be killed. I was that worried about him as an enemy.

Night four
Eomer- After everything that went on with morm's goose chase, I figured no one would believe him to be turned after that point, and up till that point no one believed him guilty. I also knew that he could manipulate the crowd in the event that something happened to morm. Yes, Eomer was my back up morm.

Valier- I couldn't resist. I was worried that she might be the seer, but decided to risk it- best case I had a new wolf, worst case I got rid of the seer. If Valier had been turned into an ordo, I was going to have her killed. Then only the GW coming out and revealing Valier as seer would have tipped any one off. (And yeah, I think I could have talked my way out of it. )

Nilp- Because he possesses the same ninja-ness as Naria, though with perhaps a bit more noticeable. Having only played two games with him, I don't know if this is true to pattern or not- but it seems that if he survives Day One, he lasts for quite a while. Over all, he seemed to be a good choice to have on my team. Not once did I suspect him as seer. (Just like in that game with Naria!)

Night five
Jenny- Jenny makes such a good wolf. I knew that her skills and lack of suspicion so far would be a good asset to my side. I had looked at her earlier, but decided against it (just in case she was dreamed of...).

Night six
Kitanna- she had been on the list of doom, and so I knew she wasn't gifted, but she had garnered no votes and little suspicion, and so I knew she was likely safe for the rest of the game.

Who I killed and Why

Night two
SPM was Alcarillo's suggestion. I went with it for a few reasons. Saucie good is too much of a danger to deal with. Saucie bad is a likely dream, or worse- scry. And I figured Alca could talk his way out of it long enough for my purposes.

Night three
I saw the suggestion to the GW, and I thought that the GW might just try it. I also thought that he would likely pick an innocent as well. Plans fail sometimes.

Night four
Gurthang and Cailin were both attacked because they were likely seer choices.

Night five
Nilp and Firefoot- it was voted on by the wolves, so you'll have to ask them.

Night six
Lommy and Caran were again killed as likely gifted choices. I noted that Lommy had been under suspicion but hadn't ended up on Gurthang's list of doom, and Caran was just clean the whole game. I don't recall her ever being looked at.

Other moves

First, just to get this out of the way- My objection to Gurthang's plan was genuine, and had nothing to do with being the EW. I do not like having other people think for me. I despise being told what I can and cannot do when I know that the person telling me what to do is as lost as I am. (Even though I wasn't really lost, but that's beside the point.) I absolutely cannot stand being controlled in any fashion. My vote for Valier really was made in a huff.

Second, I'd like to point out, especially to Gurthang, that I didn't actually change opinion (publically) of Valier. Never once did I state her to be a likely wolf. I only said that I found her the most suspicious in the group provided. So your "catch" was imagined.

Third, I never intended to survive. I was constantly looking to set up the best situation for my wolves, and then take out the GW to keep gifteds from popping up. So, the whole game I was trying to survive just long enough to die. I found out from LMP that the wizards would be removed shortly after a challenged was issued (because I made it a point to ask) so I challenged right after being found out to prevent another list from showing up. I knew that with out it, the village would be completely lost. If you look at the voting record that day, you'll see I was right.



And now, Gurthang, you really did have a difficult hand, as is always true of the good team in these games. Despite that, you did fantastically, and I found you to be a worthy adversary.

My thanks to Boromir for being our mod- he was very obliging, and I was very demanding.

Kuruharan, I didn't work with you, but I hear tell you did a good job.

Finally, congratualtions to LMP for such an amazing game. A new concept is always going to have rough patches, but you managed it really well. Your family concept also made it fun, and added some intriguing elements to the game. Your narrations were beautiful, as well. I give you a standing ovation.

[mormegil]

Originally Posted by Roa

Night five
Nilp and Firefoot- it was voted on by the wolves, so you'll have to ask them.

I was the only wolf, I believe, that fought for at least one of them to live. I wanted Nilp killed but Firefoot to remain living. The reason behind this would be to cause utter confusion in the village and most likley the lynching of an innocent Firefoot. If she wasn't killed he village would be left wondering if she was converted by the EW who wanted to use her 'known' innocent status as a shield. There was no way Gurthang was choosing her as a seer because we most likely would be killing her. I disagreed with this kill as I found it unoriginal and a bit boring but in the end it served our purposes.

[Gurthang]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

There were problems with this game, which I figured would be the case, and having played through it, I see what they were, and the next time Dueling Wizards is played, those problems won't recur. All in all, though, I'm really pleased that it went as smoothly as it did.

True, so very true. First times are always somewhat like test runs. I guess somewhat similar to Day 1s.

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

Would you support both good and evil teams being allowed to PM all the time? That's the only redress I can see to your complaint.

I think that would solve a lot of the problems I was having. Truthfully, the ability to PM at Night is desirable enough that I would be perfectly willing to let the Evil Team talk during the Day. Well, I probably won't have to worry about it, as becoming the Good Wizard again is so close to impossible that it makes no difference. But yeah, I want to make sure that the next Dueling Wizards game is a bit closer.

[Gurthang]

Originally Posted by Roa_Aoife

Second, I'd like to point out, especially to Gurthang, that I didn't actually change opinion (publically) of Valier. Never once did I state her to be a likely wolf. I only said that I found her the most suspicious in the group provided. So your "catch" was imagined.

Whether I imagined it or not, I felt like I saw a change, and it's part of the reason I was so sure you were the EW.

I've got to tell you, though, your wolf choices were brilliant. We were lucky to catch some of them, or maybe not lucky, as you sacrificed them, but the ones we didn't catch... well, we never would have. So you did an amazing job in that aspect. Oh, and truthfully, you openly disagreeing with me almost made me mad enough to tell everyone to lynch you. But, it made me extremely indecisive about you as the EW. I thought it might be a bluff you would pull off, but also knew it could be a real qualm with the plan. Funny that is was partially right with both thoughts. Oh, and another stroke of brilliance was your quick coming out. That 'urgent business' was me trying to get a message to my gifteds telling them everything. Needless to say, they never got it. *coughnoNightPMcough*

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by Gurthang

Needless to say, they never got it. *coughnoNightPMcough*

Needless to say, it turned out to be quite academic.
*coughAllintheFamilyGiftedscough*

[dancing spawn of ungoliant]

Lmp, thank you for a fantastic game. It was nice to try something completely new, and I think all worked very well - at least I had lots of fun.

Kuru, thanks for great sub-modding and putting up with my inbox issues.

And of course, congrats, Evil Team, on the victory!

I think the only problem the Good Team had was... timezones. I don't know about Kath and Nilp, but at least I had troubles discussing with Gurthang due to time differences. In that sense it would have helped if the Good Team could have PMed during Night, too.

Originally Posted by lmp

That was the night that I had a completely different narration all set up with a fascinating bedroom scene involving Nilpaurion, Spawn, and two werewolves (now now, get your mind out of the gutter.... ) I did get to use it for Spawn's death later, but without Nilp. Ah well.

I'm sure that would have been... interesting.

I liked the more powerful Hunter role. Now I didn't have to think what if someone isn't a Wolf and we'll lose a valuable innocent, but I was free to choose a villager whom I suspected regardless of their "reputation".

I was impressed by many innocents' accurate analysing in this game. They can't obviously trust anyone, and they know nothing for sure, but all the confusion and mistrust also brought up best strategical analyses I've seen in WWs. Also, everything was less chaotic than I had thought, but that's probably just a good thing.

[Diamond18]

Originally Posted by Roa_Aoife

And let me just say that I was amazed no one believed him. That was poor judgement on your parts (yes, Diamond, you too) and showed a distinct lack of thoughtfulness from all of you.

I did believe him.

I voted to lynch him because I didn't want to have to spend the entire game listening to him talk about how great he is and how stupid the rest of us are. Thoughtless? Maybe. Gratifying? Definitely. Would I do it again? After his last post, without a doubt.

Roa, we obviously have diametrically opposed views on Werewolf. I think we should be able to have fun, and play the game without fear of constant condemnation (because, you know, it's just a game). So, I believe we may deal with insufferable louts who make playing unfun in our own ways, and if that makes me a terrible person and a bad player, so be it.... Feel free to lynch me on principle from now on. I'll understand. Just don't tell me how to play the game. (I cannot stress this enough.) I cite Cailín's excellent post on why the personality aspect is a viable part of the game and not to be taken lightly.

Still, congratulations on your win. The last wolves standing were marvelous baddies, adept in playing the personalities of their fellow players, so I'm glad for you that you made better picks than Loki afterwards.

[Gurthang]

Originally Posted by Diamond18

Still, congratulations on your win. The last wolves standing were marvelous baddies, adept in playing the personalities of their fellow players, so I'm glad for you that you made better picks than Loki afterwards.

Truthfully, I agree with Roa. I don't think Loki was a bad pick. (obviously)

I was going to choose him for a few reasons. (Funny how I, and everyone, are assuming he's a guy... mostly due to his attitude. He's never actually made the distinction.)

1. He's a newbie, and likely to survive.

Face it. Most of us have soft spots for new guys. We want them to get a good feel for the game, and so don't usually lynch them for the first few days. I think if Loki hadn't made such a big deal about being the 'chosen one' then he would have survived for about half the game.

2. I believe in giving people a chance to prove themselves.

Okay, like everybody, I want my chance to do something amazing. I got it in my first game as the first ever Black Beorning. I thought Loki deserved a shot at proving what he could do with a gift.

3. He seems intelligent to me.

Despite his in-your-face nature, from what I've seen he's a bright guy. I think he could have done a lot for either side. Hence him being wanted on both sides.


The whole spawn hunting Nilp after he was revealed thing. That was me. I didn't want to waste a scry on him because I thought he'd be killed, but at the same time I needed to make sure he wasn't a wolf. So, if he would have been turned, he would have been dead anyway, because spawn would have killed him. As it was, Roa took care of him.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Well that was fun. Wish I'd been around more to pursue Eomer and Kitanna (who I've been convinced were guilty for ages, especially Eomer (learn: he's never ever ever innocent if he lives past day one... EVER.). When I spotted the end, I knew... well... I knew I'd been right the whole time.

Great playing, EVERYBODY. Fantastic narrations, LMP. That was a blast, even with my real[!!] RL issues. Haha. I loved that you were all like "is she really gone?" I was.

And Jenny... Again!?!? Hehe.

[Diamond18]

Originally Posted by Gurthang

(Funny how I, and everyone, are assuming he's a guy... mostly due to his attitude. He's never actually made the distinction.)

I'm pretty sure he refered to himself as male in his first game post, when he used the third person narration.

Anyway, you're free to agree with Roa, but I think my point is proved by this:

I think if Loki hadn't made such a big deal about being the 'chosen one' then he would have survived for about half the game.

Yeah. If he hadn't been such a you-know-what he could have, should have, etc. But he was and he didn't. His pre-game attitude told me exactly what kind of player he'd be and how quickly he would die, and for good reason. And look what happened.

PS -- it also wasn't about the chosen one, it was the constant "I told you so" gloating, (when Paul was right to let the GW scry Night 1) the insane raving about the $20 restaurant fee, and the threats to grind people into the dirt and kick out their teeth.

[Diamond18]

Originally Posted by Feanor of the Peredhil

That was a blast, even with my real[!!] RL issues. Haha. I loved that you were all like "is she really gone?" I was.

And Jenny... Again!?!? Hehe.

At least I was right about you. If you and Eomer had both been evil, I would just have to give up and declare my innocent-o-metre to be a non-entity.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Gurthang / about Loki

1. He's a newbie, and likely to survive.

Face it. Most of us have soft spots for new guys. We want them to get a good feel for the game, and so don't usually lynch them for the first few days. I think if Loki hadn't made such a big deal about being the 'chosen one' then he would have survived for about half the game.

2. I believe in giving people a chance to prove themselves.

Okay, like everybody, I want my chance to do something amazing. I got it in my first game as the first ever Black Beorning. I thought Loki deserved a shot at proving what he could do with a gift.

3. He seems intelligent to me.

Despite his in-your-face nature, from what I've seen he's a bright guy. I think he could have done a lot for either side. Hence him being wanted on both sides.

I agree with you on all this (especially in 2 & 3). And somehow I'm sorry I had to be one of those actually arranging his lynch on DAY1. But it was as well a surprise to just note that in five minutes I had gotten a three-vote lead in the lynching-line, the others behind me being Loki, Spm and Lommy. Clearly Loki was my best choice to try to lynch on that point instead of me.

But I also agree with Di and Cailín, that personality matters do get involved in these games, and Loki wasn't exactly the guy most people would like to stick around... that was one of the things I could count for during that evening. It was irrational, but it worked.

So Loki, please! You would make just an excellent WW-player, if you would cool down a bit (I'm the one saying this! But then again I have somewhat tried to tone down my playing from the first games). With all the boasting you'll face a high possibility of more DAY1 lynches to come. And I would really like to see you getting further in a game to show what you really can do there (I'm having expectations).

I mean people are brilliant in this game in different ways. If you truly are intelligent, you see it and accept it too... Just having an analytical mind doesn't get you far if you can't otherwise adjust youself to the game, and well, just playing with others, not just by yourself. (And I'm not saying this with any malice now, just as a suggestion for more enjoyable games)

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Diamond

Yeah. If he hadn't been such a you-know-what he could have, should have, etc. But he was and he didn't. His pre-game attitude told me exactly what kind of player he'd be and how quickly he would die, and for good reason. And look what happened.

I thoroughly agree with this. It was clear that he would be an abrasive player from his pre-game posts. That's why he was not on my list of likely Wolves and why I did not believe his claim (thinking that a player chosen by both Wizards would not be told of this). Either way, though, he should not have been lynched. He was clearly (in my view) innocent.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

That's why he was not on my list of likely Wolves and why I did not believe his claim (thinking that a player chosen by both Wizards would not be told of this).

I was under the very same impression and only started to think about it differently after Roa started her attack on me first on those grounds (that I knew that he knew - and that I knew the case... complicated stuff this WW-gaming sometimes )

[mormegil]

Originally Posted by Diamond

Just don't tell me how to play the game. (I cannot stress this enough.) I cite Cailín's excellent post on why the personality aspect is a viable part of the game and not to be taken lightly.

But what if it is my style of play to try and take charge, which it is. Why should I change my style to suit yours? My point here is that I agree that the personality aspect is viable and we all have different personalities. You've gotten after me before for trying to take charge but I will continue it because I feel it is the best contribution I can give to WW.

[Boromir88]

I actually suggest trying a new style everytime you play. Or atleast, that's what I like to do, I like to mix it up and try new things to suit the village. Though I guess I've always been one of the blabber-mouths, at least I tell myself I'm playing different from past games. Anyway, it's just something that I like to do to amuse myself in a way ...how will I play this game? And how will the village see my play?

[Alcarillo]

Originally Posted by Roa

Night two
Alcarillo- what can I say? I wanted someone who would survive just long enough to to keep my werewolf population up, but could still be used later either by me or another wolf. (No offense, Alc.)

Ha! None at all. I was honored to have been chosen! Unfortunately, silence wasn't much of a disguise this time around.

A quick congrats to the victorious wolves. Roa had told me before my death that Eomer was another wolf, so I was praying that final day that Lal would be lynched (sorry, Lal).

Excellent game, everybody.

[Diamond18]

Originally Posted by mormegil

But what if it is my style of play to try and take charge, which it is. Why should I change my style to suit yours? My point here is that I agree that the personality aspect is viable and we all have different personalities. You've gotten after me before for trying to take charge but I will continue it because I feel it is the best contribution I can give to WW.

Personality conflicts are to be expected. I don't recall meaning to "get after" you, morm, though I of course haven't hesitated to disagree with you. If you are referring to when you told people to stop posting so much, well, I disagreed because I feel that was somewhat unfairly telling people how to play. We could get into a run-around of "My playing style is to tell others how to play, therefore telling me not to tell you how to play is telling me how to play," and on some technical level there's a point in that. So, I'll remedy that by amending my statement to, "Tell me how to play if you want but don't for a second expect me to obey." Which is sort of like saying not to tell me how to play, only friendlier, because I have your waste of breath in mind. If my playing is ever considered odious, of course, I invite anyone to lynch me for it as I can well understand the need to get rid of odiousness. I didn't vote to lynch you, morm, just because we had that disagreement over playing style, because I didn't consider it a lynching offense. Seeing as you were a wolf, maybe I should have.

Now, my statement you quoted was mostly directed at Roa's seeming assumption that she is an authority on good and bad judgement. Or that it even matters. It's a game, we're imperfect humans, we don't do things the way others think we should and that sometimes have bad results (I'm not going to stand here and say I'm proud of my Oddwen vote or my trust in the innocence of Valier, Eomer, and Jenny!) but for others to stand up like Loki and Roa and say things like "You played quite poorly" or "horribly" or "thoughtlessly" or with "bad judgement" is to assume that they themselves have never been wrong, made mistakes, or done things that were mistakes in the eyes of others. Trust me, when we do something wrong in Werewolf, we can figure it out pretty quickly on our own. Espeically if we're getting lynched for it. Some of us, anyway. And those that can't won't get it, period. Basically, there's no need for the firing line or the 100 lashes afterwards. (I would not even be posting this if Roa and Loki hadn't so charmingly offered their sparklingly criticisms -- unasked.)

Strong personalities and opinions such as your, mine, and Roa's are bound to clash. We may sometimes lose our tempers with each other, especially in a particularly tense game, and such cases there will be need for coolling off and apologizing for snapping too hard. We will, I suspect, always be debating these sorts of things. I will respond to things you and she say which I don't agree with, but I hope that we can keep even our strong arguments below the line of outright brawls, which is why I tend to overtype in explaining my motivations, rather than just saying "sod off" or something like that.

[the phantom]

1. I thought that a Night 2 wolf attack on me was fairly likely. I was sort of surprised to be picked as Hunter that night. I assumed the GW would pick a Ranger first. If I would've been made the Ranger, I would've protected myself, which would've been good since the Wolves attacked me. I refused to make a Hunter pick because the odds of hitting a wolf weren't good and I could not communicate with my Wizard during the Night to receive direction.

2. I was worried that a pick would be demanded from me. If I would've been forced to pick, Roa would've been my target. lmp- what would have happened in the game and in the narrative had I, the Hunter, picked the EW as my target?

3. Roa turned out to be a wizard, just like I said on Day 1! As the game went on and I watched from beyond the grave, I never changed my opinion on that. Also, I began leaning specifically towards Roa=EW (as opposed to GW) after I was killed. (sorry, but I just had to pat myself on the back for that)

4. Gurthang was not my top suspect for GW, but at the same time I wasn't overly shocked to learn it was him.

5. The lack of Seer dreams- ouch.

6. Eomer- I had you pegged, m'boy. I believed you were a wolf, and Lalaith was innocent. You can't fool your brother.

7. I also believed fairly firmly in the innocence of Oddwen, Diamond, and Zali at the time of their deaths. Go me.

8. But on the other hand, I incorrectly suspected the innocent Glirdan, and I didn't particularly suspect wolves Nogrod and morm. Kudos to Spawn for taking morm down.

And one last thing. I'm just curious about this Roa. What did you think when I posted this on Day 1?

+ + Roa

...because Roa is a Wizard, of course.

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by the phantom

I was worried that a pick would be demanded from me. If I would've been forced to pick, Roa would've been my target. lmp- what would have happened in the game and in the narrative had I, the Hunter, picked the EW as my target?

You should have done it, phantom. You would not have been able to kill her, but you would have identified her and reported back to Gurthang that Roa was the EW. It would have created a likely good team win. In a real hurry.

[dancing spawn of ungoliant]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

You should have done it, phantom. You would not have been able to kill her, but you would have identified her and reported back to Gurthang that Roa was the EW. It would have created a likely good team win. In a real hurry.

But if phantom would have been killed, and since the Good Team couldn't PM during Night, Gurthang wouldn't have known who phantom's target was - unless by guessing, right?

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Hey Roa... I've been wondering...

What did you think of this post?

[Gurthang]

Originally Posted by dancing spawn of ungoliant

But if phantom would have been killed, and since the Good Team couldn't PM during Night, Gurthang wouldn't have known who phantom's target was - unless by guessing, right?

That's what would make sense to me. And along those same lines, it really surprised me that Nilp was allowed to dream the Night he was turned back to an ordinary by Roa. According to the nightly order given to us, he should have been deSeerized before he got to dream at all. I suppose there is an explaination; I'd guess the whole giving Roa a second and then a third scry changed things a bit. LMP?

Originally Posted by the phantom

1. I thought that a Night 2 wolf attack on me was fairly likely. I was sort of surprised to be picked as Hunter that night. I assumed the GW would pick a Ranger first. If I would've been made the Ranger, I would've protected myself, which would've been good since the Wolves attacked me. I refused to make a Hunter pick because the odds of hitting a wolf weren't good and I could not communicate with my Wizard during the Night to receive direction.

Funny thing about that, is that I turned you into a Hunter, and then was catching up and read that you had asked me to. I was a little shocked that we had been thinking so much alike.

Oh, and I didn't want to make a Ranger, because they were practically useless. I couldn't tell him to protect my Seer without revealing my Seer to them, and that's not something I was willing to do.

[the phantom]

Just for your entertainment, Gurthang, here is the pm that I sent to Kuru after he informed me that I was changed into the Hunter.

If I survive the Night, please forward this to the GW.

The GW actually changed me? Wow. I figured for sure they'd be too worried about me dying.

Tomorrow, I was actually planning on (if I lived through the night) hinting strongly that I was the GW in an effort to get the GW and EW to scry me the same night, thus revealing the EW to the GW.

I honestly didn't expect this. Wow. I just hope I live through the night. I'd really like to be on the team with the GW for a while. The fact that the wolves killed Sauce has me worried though.

Well, with only two (plus one from tonight) wolves in a village of this size, I don't think it would be productive for me to make a Hunter pick before hearing from my Wizard. It would be damaging enough for me to be killed tonight. I would hate to damage the cause further by killing an innocent, or the Seer.

So, for tonight I pick no one.

GW, whoever you may be...

I am yours to command. If there is something you need done, let me know. Any thoughts you want to know, just ask.

I will be at work for the next five hours, so I might not be able to talk until after that.

your Hunter,
the phantom

I really hated to die so soon, but oh well, my death was useful to the village since it resulted in a Wolf death as well. Good job on that Gurth.

[Roa_Aoife]

And one last thing. I'm just curious about this Roa. What did you think when I posted this on Day 1?
Quote:
+ + Roa

...because Roa is a Wizard, of course.

I laughed, because I never take those things seriously on Day 1. It's usually just flitting around. But what gave me away?

Hey Roa... I've been wondering...

What did you think of this post?

That also amused me, because I knew all three of them could talk their way around it, and few people would take that evidence seriously when they did. I was impressed with your insight though.

And Diamond, the whole point of this after game discussion is to give thoughts and critiques on the game and the players. You don't have to read it. If you believed Loki, then you killed a known innocent in a game where those are a rare gift to have. You accuse me of judging your playing style, but you condemned him for his. That was spiteful and foolish. I don't claim to have never made mistakes, but I accept them and learn from them when they are pointed out to me. I do not attack the people who are kind enough to do so.

[Diamond18]

Wow, everything I say just goes in one ear and out the other, doesn't it, Roa? A pity. But at least I know where we stand, which is a good thing.

[the phantom]

I laughed, because I never take those things seriously on Day 1. It's usually just flitting around. But what gave me away?

It was sort of a process of ruling out other people.

1) There were some that I was fairly sure wouldn't volunteer to be a wizard. This narrowed my list a bit.

2) I considered the moderating team, lmp, Boro, and Kuru, and thought about who they would or wouldn't pick for various reasons. This narrowed my list considerably.

3) I assumed that Loki was telling the truth, and thought about who would possibly pick him as a Seer or Wolf.

If I'm remembering right, only two (or was it three?) people made it through my Wizard test, and you came through looking the best out of them.

So there you go.

[mormegil]

Hot Chocolate and cookies anybody?


Well I'm glad to see that the phantom didn't suspect me. Though I didn't survive until the end that's a moral victory.

[Gurthang]

Well, I just realized (okay not just now, but just decided to post now) that this has, by far, been the most emotionally charged game I've ever seen. I suppose most of it is due to the fact that two players were picked to choose teams. And choosing teams has always caused some people to be left out.

Yet, it seems odd; mainly because the emotion is far more than I would ever have expected. Certain clashes due to playing style and the hurling of insults were more abundant here than anywhere I think I've ever seen on the 'Downs. Especially unique is the way this 'extra' emotion overflowed to the pre-game discussion and now even a little to the post-game discussion. Strange indeed.

Originally Posted by the phantom

I am yours to command. If there is something you need done, let me know.

Oh, the possibilities! Well, I really did want you on my team, and yet again you surprise me with your thinking, because it seems similar to my own thoughts... somewhat.

I had a thought, sometime around Day 1 or Day 2, about having my hunter come out and claim to be the Good Wizard. Basically, this would give me a direct line of communication to the villagers without revealing myself to the EW. I wanted to get a wolf name first, just in case the Evil Wizard decided to 'check' that the real GW had come forward. Then the Hunter would simply have a wolf to kill.

Another reason I wanted to make a Hunter is because his death would narrow down the possible villagers who might have been the EW. Sort of sad to say, but I wanted to kill as many people as fast as possible to narrow down my choices. Looking back, that might not have been the best idea, but it all worked out in the short run.

[Gurthang]

Originally Posted by mormegil

Hot Chocolate and cookies anybody?

Actually, I'd take milk with my cookies, if you've got any.

Originally Posted by mormegil

Well I'm glad to see that the phantom didn't suspect me. Though I didn't survive until the end that's a moral victory.

Sort of funny, because Nilp did suspect you... of being the Good Wizard. In fact, he actually asked me if I was you. Here's a bit of the PM that I got from Kuru from Nilp:

Originally Posted by Nilpaurion Felagund

Monkey avvie, mage-type spirit. Complete my alliteration.

Am I right?

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by dancing spawn of ungoliant

But if phantom would have been killed, and since the Good Team couldn't PM during Night, Gurthang wouldn't have known who phantom's target was - unless by guessing, right?

Attacking Roa would not have killed the phantom. In the game just past, the phantom would have been able to inform Gurthang during the Day phase.

Originally Posted by Feanor

Hey Roa... I've been wondering...What did you think of this post?

I personally thought that post was 'da bomb'.

Originally Posted by Gurthang

it really surprised me that Nilp was allowed to dream the Night he was turned back to an ordinary by Roa.

The second and third picks came AFTER the scries and dreams, etc. Good guess, Gurthang.

I found the whole game to be very revealing of the way things work in terms of the struggles between good and evil. Evil tends to have a leader who controls and uses the pawns; Good tends to have a leader who has trouble getting the rank and file to follow for all kinds of reasons. And that's just for starters. I knew it would work out that way, and was quite intrigued to see how it would do so.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

I personally thought that post was 'da bomb'.

Yeah... that's me. Da bomb.

Seriously though, my only point for this post is to, yet again, say that this was one heck of an emotionally charged and very awesomely played game. Props to everyone once more.

[Roa_Aoife]

Originally Posted by LMP

Attacking Roa would not have killed the phantom. In the game just past, the phantom would have been able to inform Gurthang during the Day phase.

But we killed him. Even if he had attacked me, he was going to be killed anyways. He couldn't have attacked me otherwise. So, by the time he was allowed to PM Gurthang, he'd be dead, and out of the game. You changed the hunter role quite a lot, but it wasn't quite that far gone.