Galadriel - the matchmaker?

[akhtene]

My question is inspired by one of current threads. As I was re-reading ‘The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen’ it suddenly got inside my skull.
It’s been agreed that Elrond wasn’t especially happy about Aragorn’s feelings towards his daughter. So Elrond set the task, and Aragorn left for war against Sauron. Arwen’s feelings at that point are not mentioned or considered.
But then 30 years later Aragorn appeared in Lorien, when Arwen was also dwelling there.

"Galadriel bade him to cast aside his wayworn rainment, and she clothed him in silver and white, with a cloak of elven-grey and bright gem on his brow. Then more than any kind of Men he appeared, and seemed rather an elf-lord from the Isles of the West.And thus it was that Arwen first beheld him againafter their long parting; and as he came walking towards her under the trees of Caras Galadhon laden with flowers of gold, her choice was made and her doom appointed.
Then for a season they wandered together in the glades of Lothlorien… …and they plighted their troth and were glad"

Thus Galadriel seems to be pushing them towards each other, tempting to disobey Elrond’s will. OK, she doesn’t actually DO or SAY anything blame-worthy (just showing hospitality) but didn’t she see what was going on? Don’t tell me that [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]. What was her aim then?
It’s hardly just a petty wish to spite her son-in-law.
Patronizing young people in love – but she doesn’t look any bit romantic herself.
Well, of course she cared for M-E and might be willing to spur Aragorn in his fight for the kingdom and restoration of peace, but to use your own grand-daughter as a bait (OK, let it be ‘prize’ – that gives me creeps…

So HELP me put some sanity into that scrambled brain of mine! [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

[Kalimac]

Hmm, interesting question, especially if she WAS trying to encourage them (though I can imagine Elrond's thoughts about dratted interfering mothers-in-law [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]).

The only two questions I'd have about that are, first of all, did Galadriel know that Aragorn and Arwen had anything going on together? I'm not sure when she would have gotten a chance to see them together - they have been separated for the last 50 years, after all - and neither Arwen nor Aragorn strike me as the type to be terribly confidential about their romance. Of itself, dressing him in rich raiment doesn't mean much except that she's doing the right thing by her son-in-law's foster son and treating him like one of the family, that is, giving him a change of clothes on his return instead of just leaving him in what he's wearing - which, after all he's been through, probably isn't terribly fresh.

Secondly, would Galadriel really want to encourage Arwen to marry a mortal? She knows how much she would be giving up by doing so, and she is a beloved granddaughter - Galadriel might not be as strict as Elrond about the situation (grandmothers are less strict than parents, after all) but it's hard to see her positively enouraging Arwen to do something which would ultimately to lead to her being taken from her entire Elvish family forever, even beyond death.

Just my $0.02.

[ October 26, 2002: Message edited by: Kalimac ]

[ October 26, 2002: Message edited by: Kalimac ]

[Knight of Gondor]

Naw, I don't think Galadriel was attempting to push a handsome-looking Aragorn at Arwen. I think she was merely honoring him when he returned from his weary travels for a time. I don't even think she knew anything about Aragorn taking a shine to Arwen, really. Only Aragorn's Mom and Arwen and Elrond knew, as far we we know. Galadriel may not have known that Aragorn would find Arwen, either.

[Diamond18]

Well, I don't know...Galadriel seems so perceptive and wise that I find it hard to believe that anything would escape her notice. But then again, we don't know what Arwen's thoughts were on the matter at that point, so we don't know what there was for Galadriel to perceive!

But even if Arwen thought herself indifferent, Galadriel's foresight could have been great enough to see that it was Aragorn and Arwen's fate to fall in love and marry, and that it was Arwen's fate to become a mortal and die. As we see by the way Galadriel turns down the Ring and accepts "dimishing" as a result, Galadriel was not one to stand in the way of fate.

I can see her acting in that manner because she knew it had to be done. It was the will of Ilúvatar. Now, it might seem a bit shallow for Arwen to fall in love simply because he looked good...but this is a short tale in an appendix and not a fully developed romance novel! I'm sure a lot of it had to do with fate and the will of Ilúvatar, and not just a bath, a shave and some new clothes. Those were simply icing on the cake.

It does make sense to say that Galadriel was just being hospitable, but the way Tolkien writes it gives it more importance, in my mind. He didn't say that Aragorn got new clothes from the Elves of Lothlórien, he mentioned Galadriel specifically as giving them to him.

[ October 26, 2002: Message edited by: Diamond18 ]

[hobbitlass]

My first impression, when I read the topic starter, is that Galadriel is just being female. On a whole, and with mortality not considered, I find mothers and grandmothers to be more sympethetic and supportive of their (grand)daughter's love than a father would.

[Man-of-the-Wold]

Well, I think it is reasonable to assume that Arwen's maternal grandparents nowhere had Elrond's reservations about Aragorn & Arwen. Again, as I point out elsewhere, Elrond's reservations themselves were not in any way strictly or even primarily personal, nor negative towards Aragorn, whom he truly loved and respected, and he also wanted him to fulfill the promise of Elendil.

As I noted lately, his reservations, had as much to do with the complications of Arwen's mortality, relative to when he (Elrond) would or must leave Middle-Earth, respective to the rise of Sauron. And the need for the King to Return, if Sauron was to be vanquished. Also, her mortality was not simply triggered my matrimony with a mortal, but would that be moral, if she did lived on, pending Elrond's departure to Eldamar?

The Crown of Arnor & Gondor was not a challenge to Aragorn, as was Beren's quest for Thingol, who later recanted it, but a careful considered criterion relative to the properness of the coupling and to Arwen's lofty lineage, which eventually was a great concern for Beren (Elrond's great-grandfather).

Still, it was Elrond's part, and I don't think Galadriel would interfere actively. But perhaps on Aragorn's return to Lothlorien that first time she played a passive role consistent with what she no doubt comprehended, through possibly several sources, the Mirror and Arwen's heart not least of all. Remember, she could see much that was seen and unseen, and was not tied to chronology is a simple way, and may have been setting a stage which had to play out. Also, she probably knew both Luthien and Beren.

Finally, I think this is all very consistent with the Elfstone. Regardless of whether it came through Celebrimbor or Gandalf, or played a role in Galadriel's Second-Age strength in defending Lothlorien, it was Aragorn's ultimate namesake, and a gift to him from Arwen through Galadriel.

Destiny weaves it way through these stories.

[ October 27, 2002: Message edited by: Man-of-the-Wold ]

[Helkasir]

hhmm.. well, she is old, and probably bored. Maybe she's taken up a hobby. not that much to do in a day with peaceful place like lorien.

[Elenna]

I think perhaps, having the gift of foresight, she saw that it would be futile to attempt to keep Aragorn and Arwen apart. Elrond, not having this gift, could only look at his own feelings on the matter. His loss. Anyway, by arraying him as an Elven lord, she sort of gave fate a boost. In this she was a matchmaker, but a very subtle one. She didn't actually say anything like "Aragorn, meet my beautiful, intelligent, SINGLE granddaughter who just happens to be the spitting image of Tinuviel and makes a mean lembas." She just gave Aragorn an advantage.

[Galorme]

I think i know what JRRT would have said to this...

I can say only this: Aragorn and Arwen were meant to mary, and that must mean Galadriel was meant to dress up Elessar to meet Undómiel. Galadriel knew this must be done, even if she did not know why or how she knew.

[ October 27, 2002: Message edited by: Galorme ]

[VanimaEdhel]

I agree with what Galorme said that Tolkien would say. The role of fate in all of his books motivated many characters to do a variety different things, in and out of their normal character. Even if Galadriel had not known of Aragorn and Arwen's fate, there may have been something that motivated her to do what she did. She could not explain it, but she knew that it was "right". Or, she did not even know that it was "right", and she just did what she did. Either way, it was fate for King Elessar to end up with Arwen Undomiel, whether Galadriel played a hand in it or not. Most likely, however, because of her insight (although not as attuned as the visions of a Maiar would be, such as Melian), Galadriel saw that something important would come of Aragorn because of his clothing and how he was presented (or that could just be my adolescent feminine overstatement of the importance of clothing). I do not think that Galadriel would be completely oblivious to what she was doing, for she had foresight of many things.

[Helkasir]

I think perhaps, having the gift of foresight, she saw that it would be futile to attempt to keep Aragorn and Arwen apart. Elrond, not having this gift, could only look at his own feelings on the matter.

... that made me think of an error in the movies. The trailer has Arwen say "You have the gift of foresight... tell me what you see!" But I know elrond does not have it, so that's a glaring problem for Arwen....

[Diamond18]

"Fate, it would seem, is not without a sense of irony."

I know, I know, a silly post in the "serious" room. But I'm weak! I couldn't help it! I've already posted my thoughts on Galadriel, anyway.

(BTW, as to the glaring movie mistake, it really looks like she's just arriving at Lothlórien when she asked the question, even though they cut to Elrond, so in the movie I'll bet she's asking Galadriel.)

A silly statement and a movie statement in the books thread...somebody slap me. (Okay, I'll do it myself).

[akhtene]

Thanks everyone for your explicit replies. Just VERY short of tme now. [img]smilies/mad.gif[/img]

[elfling]

I think Diamond 18 nailed it. Gal had much power and foresight was one of them she knew their fate and did what she felt was best or what she was led to do. I don't think she acted out of any selfish or atleast self-entertaining notions of matchmaking. I also don't think Elrond was so against the relationship I think he also had the foresight to know Aragorn's future and the tasks at hand and he did'nt want anything to distract Aragorn from these tasks even his daughter. I'm rereading the books but I don't remember him being anything but logical about the future. I'm sure he didn't want to lose his daughter but he knew the chances were high he would.

[Voralphion]

I believe the main reason for Elrond's reaction to Aragorn and Arwen's relationship was purely selfish. He had already lost one relative, his brother Elros, to mortality and didn't want to lose his daughter as well. Galadriel having an objective perception of the situation would've seen that is was in the best interests of both of them and middle earth so she encouraged the relationship. Also I believe she must have known about it as she had the ability to read people's hearts, and if shhe didn't find out from Arwen, she certainly would have from Aragorn.

I actually thought that Galadriel arranged Elrond's and Celebrian's marraiges as well. I mean, if you thought of it in modern-day terms, it'd be like England and France marrying.

Then you see that Celebrian passed over the sea without Elrond, and you get a bit suspicious.

[Novlamothien]

Galadriel playing matchmaker with Aragorn and Arwen does seem like a good possability, though without Tolkien I suppose we will never know for sure.
I think Celebrain went over the sea because of a poisoned Orc wound, or something, and Elrond didn't go with her because he was still needed in Middle-earth. (Think about it, if he had go with his wife there would be no Council of Elrond to plough through, not that I am critisizing it, it is one of my best-loved chapters.)

And that's my 0.02. If I am wrong about Celebrain please tell me.
Namarie

[Finwe]

You aren't wrong about Celebrian. She was captured by Orcs in 3017 or 3018, and got a poisoned wound from them (among other things). Elrond and his sons rescued her, and Elrond physically healed her, but he couldn't mentally heal her, and so, she passed over West. Elrond had to stay back because Middle-earth needed him. He wasn't one to just pack up and leave. Besides, his children were still there, and they probably still loved Middle-earth too much to leave it.
I think that Elrond's reaction to the Aragorn/Arwen relationship is justifiable. I mean, his father set sail for a land that most thought unreachable, and his mother jumped into the sea just to save a sparkly jewel. His brother chose to become a Man, and croaked eventually. Now who wouldn't become bitter after that?!?! I think that Elrond didn't want to lose any more of his family, especially after Celebrian's loss.

[Gorwingel]

Just a quick question. Was Galadriel an actual witness of the union of Beren and Luthien? Because, I don't know, she could have compared the two couples, and this could have told her that this would work.

It is just something I was thinking about.

[Finwe]

I don't think so. Galadriel was probably a little older than Luthien when she stayed wiht Melian for a while, so the two definitely met. After that, Galadriel probably met Celeborn, fell in love, got married, and set out East. I don't think she remained behind to witness the union of Beren and Luthien.

[Tar Elenion]

Galadriel was younger than Luthien. Luthien was born ca. VY 1200, while Galadriel was born in VY 1362, making Luthien about 1500 years older than Galadriel.