The Enchantment of Melian - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Lalaith · 03-25-2003, 06:36 AM

Melian enchanted Elwe/Thingol, the result of which was that a large part of the Teleri never went to Valinor and even the ones who did were somewhat estranged from their Vanyar and Noldorin kindred.
Was this, do we think, in retrospect, a good thing or a bad thing? Did Melian deliberately enchant Elwe and if so, what was her motivation? Did it benefit Middle Earth?

**The Saucepan Man** · 03-25-2003, 07:31 AM

Quote:

... what was her motivation ...

Love Love Love ...

... it's all you need. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Lalaith · 03-25-2003, 09:48 AM

Oh, you dear old-fashioned thing.

But my other question...was it, overall, of benefit or detriment to the well-being of Middle Earth?

Inderjit Sanghera · 03-25-2003, 10:01 AM

Benefit.

1. Of her came the line that will never end, and of course the most beautiful tale of M.E-Beren and Luthien. If anything was FATED then this was. Without Luthien how would they win the Silamril back? And how oculd Earendil give the meessage of pardon to the Valar.

2. The line of Numenoriean kings wouldn't be so high.

3. The Sindar played a large part in the WoJ. They were said to far outnumber the Noldor, even in Noldorin realms as shown by the adoption of Sindarin by the exiles after the Aglareb.

4. Eru wouldn't allow a Maia/Elven union's unless it was of the utmost importance, like he didn't allow Elven/Mannish unions, which were said to be a consequence of the marring of Arda. Remeber Eru knows best. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

Lalaith · 03-26-2003, 03:30 AM

Certainly Eru knows best.
But I was also wondering...I have read, can't remember where, something which implied that Iluvatar wasn't altogether pleased with Manwe's decision to call the elves to Valinor.
Was Melian's enchantment of Elwe, and thus the tarrying of the large part of the Teleri, a plan of Iluvatar...
another thing, the Istari were, I believe,divested of some of their Maian memory and knowledge when they took up the human form of the Istari. Could the same have happened to Melian?

Afrodal Fenyar · 03-27-2003, 10:51 AM

Maybe not Eru's plan, but it was, anyways, sung in the Song of Ainur.

And the istari lost their memories due to their reincarnation. Melian wasn't reincarnated. Or was she?

akhtene · 03-27-2003, 06:26 PM

Fine reasoning, Inderjit
One more thing to ad: the Sindar got a king who had seen the Light of Valinor, but wasn't bound to the Undying land either by longing or by hatered (unlike the Noldor). So if all that was planned, it was planned really well [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Ardolon · 06-20-2003, 12:29 PM

I'm thinking it was most definately supposed to happen, and worked for the benifit of ME...If nothing else, no Melian, no Doriath, no Thranduil, No legolas. No Celeborn and Galadriel, either. And Elrond and elros wouldn't be quite as special, either. Also, Earendil, assuming he still came to be, wouldn't have had the silmaril, and would never have got through to Valinor... Whoa. If those two hadn't fallen in love, Morgoth would have won. And it might be good if the Numenorean kings weren't quite as high....although I always suspected the later ones at least were stoners.

Finwe · 06-23-2003, 08:25 AM

Well, those later ones were probably stoners, but they still were good for something. If it weren't for them, then Sauron wouldn't have been caught in the destruction of Numenor, become a shade, and never able to assume a fair form again. That way, he could never "seduce" anyone, especially an Elf, ever again.

obloquy · 06-23-2003, 09:55 AM

Quote:

Eru wouldn't allow a Maia/Elven union's unless it was of the utmost importance, like he didn't allow Elven/Mannish unions, which were said to be a consequence of the marring of Arda. Remeber Eru knows best.

Provide your source for this.

Aredhel Idril Telcontar · 06-23-2003, 10:36 AM

Well, I won't repeat all the benefits that were written, but certainly, Middle Earth did get a big slice of the cake from her coming there.
In my mind, the whole Manwe's scheme of getting the Elves to Valinor was completely wrong and caused the fading. Iluvatar probably knew that something like that would happen and gave Melian 'a little nudge out of the door' to help keep as many Elves in Middle Earth as possible.
It worked, for a little while anyway.

Legolas · 06-23-2003, 12:00 PM

We talked about this in the chatroom a couple of days ago, actually.

No Thingol/Melian, no Luthien, no Dior, no Elwing...thus Earendil doesn't gains posession of the Silmaril, doesn't ride to Aman to seek the aid of the Valar, no War of Wrath, Morgoth remains on his throne as Dark Lord.

Hard to say what events could've replaced these. Doriath was such a large factor in the events of the First Age. Doriath practically was Beleriand (it was, minus the coast, Hithlum, and Ossiriand). Perhaps with the Noldor facing Morgoth on their own and falling faster, the Valar, in great pity, would come to their aid? I'm not sure. I think it took Earendil asking for aid with a Silmaril. Who knows what other heroes would've came out?

[ June 23, 2003: Message edited by: Legolas ]

Finwe · 06-23-2003, 12:15 PM

It definitely took Earendil's plea before the Valar for them to send the Host of the West to Beleriand's aid. The Elves tried pleading for aid, but that didn't work. The ships that Cirdan sent didn't work. Ulmo just sent Voronwë back, saying that he would have to wait for another one to come.

obloquy · 06-23-2003, 06:07 PM

Quote:

...Manwe was wiser; or being ever open to Eru he did His will, which is more than wisdom....Manwe was bound by the commands and injunctions of Eru, and would do this or abstain from that in accordance with them, always...

Osanwe-kenta.

See also Did the Valar make a huge mistake?.

03-25-2003, 06:36 AM	#1
Lalaith Blithe Spirit Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 2,790	The Enchantment of Melian Melian enchanted Elwe/Thingol, the result of which was that a large part of the Teleri never went to Valinor and even the ones who did were somewhat estranged from their Vanyar and Noldorin kindred. Was this, do we think, in retrospect, a good thing or a bad thing? Did Melian deliberately enchant Elwe and if so, what was her motivation? Did it benefit Middle Earth? __________________ Out went the candle, and we were left darkling

03-25-2003, 09:48 AM	#3
Lalaith Blithe Spirit Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 2,790	Oh, you dear old-fashioned thing. But my other question...was it, overall, of benefit or detriment to the well-being of Middle Earth? __________________ Out went the candle, and we were left darkling

03-25-2003, 10:01 AM	#4
Inderjit Sanghera Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Wolverhampton, England Posts: 716	Benefit. 1. Of her came the line that will never end, and of course the most beautiful tale of M.E-Beren and Luthien. If anything was FATED then this was. Without Luthien how would they win the Silamril back? And how oculd Earendil give the meessage of pardon to the Valar. 2. The line of Numenoriean kings wouldn't be so high. 3. The Sindar played a large part in the WoJ. They were said to far outnumber the Noldor, even in Noldorin realms as shown by the adoption of Sindarin by the exiles after the Aglareb. 4. Eru wouldn't allow a Maia/Elven union's unless it was of the utmost importance, like he didn't allow Elven/Mannish unions, which were said to be a consequence of the marring of Arda. Remeber Eru knows best. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] __________________ “If I’m more of an influence on your son as a rapper then you are as a father then you've got to look at yourself as a parent” ~>Ice Cube. "Life is so beautiful"->Don Vito Corleone

03-26-2003, 03:30 AM	#5
Lalaith Blithe Spirit Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 2,790	Certainly Eru knows best. But I was also wondering...I have read, can't remember where, something which implied that Iluvatar wasn't altogether pleased with Manwe's decision to call the elves to Valinor. Was Melian's enchantment of Elwe, and thus the tarrying of the large part of the Teleri, a plan of Iluvatar... another thing, the Istari were, I believe,divested of some of their Maian memory and knowledge when they took up the human form of the Istari. Could the same have happened to Melian? __________________ Out went the candle, and we were left darkling

03-27-2003, 10:51 AM	#6
Afrodal Fenyar Haunting Spirit Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Finland Posts: 94	Maybe not Eru's plan, but it was, anyways, sung in the Song of Ainur. And the istari lost their memories due to their reincarnation. Melian wasn't reincarnated. Or was she? __________________ "Out of doubt, out of dark to the day's rising I came singing in the sun, sword unsheathing. To hope's end I rode and to heart's breaking: Now for wrath, now for ruin and a red nightfall!" ~Eomer

03-27-2003, 06:26 PM	#7
akhtene Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: May 2002 Location: stronghold of the North Posts: 392	Fine reasoning, Inderjit One more thing to ad: the Sindar got a king who had seen the Light of Valinor, but wasn't bound to the Undying land either by longing or by hatered (unlike the Noldor). So if all that was planned, it was planned really well [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] __________________ Где найти мне сил, чтобы вернуться через века, Чтобы ты - простил?.. А трава разлуки высока...

06-20-2003, 12:29 PM	#8
Ardolon Pile O'Bones Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 16	I'm thinking it was most definately supposed to happen, and worked for the benifit of ME...If nothing else, no Melian, no Doriath, no Thranduil, No legolas. No Celeborn and Galadriel, either. And Elrond and elros wouldn't be quite as special, either. Also, Earendil, assuming he still came to be, wouldn't have had the silmaril, and would never have got through to Valinor... Whoa. If those two hadn't fallen in love, Morgoth would have won. And it might be good if the Numenorean kings weren't quite as high....although I always suspected the later ones at least were stoners. __________________ Pushing the envelope three inches futher then anyone else.-Bone

06-23-2003, 08:25 AM	#9
Finwe Deathless Sun Join Date: May 2003 Location: The Royal Suite in the Halls of Mandos Posts: 2,609	Well, those later ones were probably stoners, but they still were good for something. If it weren't for them, then Sauron wouldn't have been caught in the destruction of Numenor, become a shade, and never able to assume a fair form again. That way, he could never "seduce" anyone, especially an Elf, ever again. __________________ But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.

06-23-2003, 10:36 AM	#11
Aredhel Idril Telcontar Wight Join Date: May 2003 Location: Hanging on a sheer cliff with Maedhros Posts: 113	Well, I won't repeat all the benefits that were written, but certainly, Middle Earth did get a big slice of the cake from her coming there. In my mind, the whole Manwe's scheme of getting the Elves to Valinor was completely wrong and caused the fading. Iluvatar probably knew that something like that would happen and gave Melian 'a little nudge out of the door' to help keep as many Elves in Middle Earth as possible. It worked, for a little while anyway. __________________ "I am your sister and not your servant, and beyond your bounds I will go as seems good to me." Tai uzdaryk mane Tevyne savyje/kaip giesme gerkleje mirtis uzdaro/ ir kaip uzdaro vakara naktis/ o Tu man atsakai: as Tavo laisve

06-23-2003, 12:00 PM	#12
Legolas A Northern Soul Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Valinor Posts: 1,850	We talked about this in the chatroom a couple of days ago, actually. No Thingol/Melian, no Luthien, no Dior, no Elwing...thus Earendil doesn't gains posession of the Silmaril, doesn't ride to Aman to seek the aid of the Valar, no War of Wrath, Morgoth remains on his throne as Dark Lord. Hard to say what events could've replaced these. Doriath was such a large factor in the events of the First Age. Doriath practically was Beleriand (it was, minus the coast, Hithlum, and Ossiriand). Perhaps with the Noldor facing Morgoth on their own and falling faster, the Valar, in great pity, would come to their aid? I'm not sure. I think it took Earendil asking for aid with a Silmaril. Who knows what other heroes would've came out? [ June 23, 2003: Message edited by: Legolas ] __________________ ...take counsel with thyself, and remember who and what thou art.

06-23-2003, 12:15 PM	#13
Finwe Deathless Sun Join Date: May 2003 Location: The Royal Suite in the Halls of Mandos Posts: 2,609	It definitely took Earendil's plea before the Valar for them to send the Host of the West to Beleriand's aid. The Elves tried pleading for aid, but that didn't work. The ships that Cirdan sent didn't work. Ulmo just sent Voronwë back, saying that he would have to wait for another one to come. __________________ But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.