Eldarion

[JenFramp]

How Elven was Eldarion?

In the line of ancestors, the only true Half-elf was Earendil, but the sons of Earendil were claimed to be exactly half-elvish half-man, but if elwing was completely elvish thentheir children would have been 75% elvish and 25% man. This would make Arwen 87.5% elvish and make Eldarion 62.5% man. But if we are taking that Elrond was Completely elvish(even though his name begs to differ) in that he chose to be elf, it would make Arwen completely elvish(mother Celebrian) and make Eldarion and a True Half-Elf, Half-Man.
As it says in an extract for Appendix A, aragorn says that he himself is the last of the Numenorians, so what does that make Eldarion?

And also in that extract (but earlier said) Arwen is the son of Elrond, Elros was Elronds brother, Aragorn is descended from Elros, what does this make Aragorn to Arwen? Is Arwen Aragorns’ Great, Great, Great, Great, Great, Great(few more Greats) Grand-Aunt a few times removed? Hahaha! have fun replying [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Angry Hill Troll]

Actually, Elrond's ethnic makeup is a little more complicated, because he actually has both Elven and human ancestors on both sides of his family (plus a little bit of Maia on one side). Somebody posted that not long ago. I would have to search for the thread but it turns out Elrond is a little more than 1/2 elvish. Celebrian is 100% elvish, so Arwen is slightly more than 75% elvish.

Aragorn is a descendant of Elrond's brother Elros through fifty-some generations (first few Kings of Numenor, Lords of Adunië, Kings of Arnor, and Chieftains of the Northern Dunedain). Exactly what degree of elvish ancestry Aragorn has is difficult to say, probably he is descended from Elros through several branches of his family tree. The Numenoreans, particularly the nobility, were quite isolated from other humans for most of the second age, so it is likely that by the time of the Alkallabeth, some twenty generations after Elros, virtually everyone on the island was Elros' descendent. Likewise, the royal houses of Arnor and Gondor tended to marry among themselves. Recall that the War of Kin-Strife (Third Age ~1400) resulted when one of the gondorian kings married someone not of numenorean descent. So probably Aragorn had a lot more elvish ancestry than one ancestor fifty generations back would suggest. How else would he have lived to 208? My guess is 5-10% elvish ancestry for Aragorn is not unreasonable.

Putting this all together, Eldarion is probably about 40-45% elvish.

One thing we don't know from the books is how long Eldarion lived, one might expect that his life might be even longer than his father's due to his larger degree of elven parentage.

[Manwe Sulimo]

Let's look at ancestors (since Aragorn and Arwen have common ancestors up to Eärendil).

Elu Thingol (Elwë) = Melian
100% Sinda 100% Maia
Lúthien = Beren Idhri = Tuor
50%E, 50%Ma 100%M 100%E 100%M
Dior = Nimloth
25%E,25%Ma,50%M 100%E
Elwing = Eärendil
62.5%Elf, 12.5%Maia, 25% Man 50%Elf,50%Man

Elros and Elrond are 56.75% Elf, 37.5% Man, and 6.25% Maia.

Arwen, therefore, is 78.375% Elf, 18.75% Man, and 3.125% Maia.

Aragorn is an unknown...we don't know the direct line of the Lords of Andúnië. But we can assume that it is at least sixty (39 cheiftans of the Arnor Dúnedain + Lords of Andúnië). So, Eldarion is roughly 40% Elf, 58% Man, and 2% Maia (all approximate numbers).


EDIT: Sorry it looks so weird...just look at it for a second and it'll work itself out.

[ December 07, 2002: Message edited by: Manwe Sulimo ]

[Man-of-the-Wold]

Yes, the numbers are right on. What is interesting, as I've pointed out before is how little of the Elven strain is Noldoli, as one might otherwise expect. Both Idril and Galadriel were less than one-half Noldor, having, respectively, a Vanyarian Greatgrandmother/Grandmother, and a Mother who was Vanyar/Teleri.

Elwing's and Celeborn's elven ancestors were pure Sindar/Teleri, of course.

As for Eldarion and his sisters, they were in appearance very beautiful, fair and all that reminiscent of Elves, to be sure, but in terms of primary features (whatever those might be .. pointy ears? .. very slender stature?) they were probably unmistakably human, and would not have been recognized as Elfin Royalty like their mother, Arwen.

I suspect that Eldarion had the long-life of his father, which was the original Dunedain span of thrice a normal man, which more remarkably they would generally reach, whereas disease and so forth probably limited most lesser men far more often to much less than the traditionally "normal span" of 70 years. Originally, the Line of Elros had enjoyed five-times this norm or about 350 years, such that reign of the early Numenorian Kings could sometimes be nearly as long as Aragorn's entire life. Conceivably, this might have been restored with Eldarion, but I doubt it.

[ December 09, 2002: Message edited by: Man-of-the-Wold ]

[Galorme]

Personally I love maths and would have thought this topic would appeal to me. But you know what? I don't think the exact levels of blood from the different kingdoms was what caused anything really. If a person had elven blood then they had elven blood, regardless of badly it was watered down. Accounting for Elvish strains in other houses Aragorn's line probably lost 40% of the Elvish genetics per generation, he would have a percentage of blood somewhere around 0.0000000000002%. This would mean the chance of him even having a single Elvish gene left would be something like one in 4 million (taking the number of genes in a human as 60000, quite a generous estimation). But he still had Elvish blood, you could see it in his actions and Arwen identified him as Kin. 'Blood' is a much more mysterious and profound thing in JRRT's works that a mere case of genetics.

[Keneldil the Polka-dot]

'Blood' is a much more mysterious and profound thing in JRRT's works that a mere case of genetics

Well said.

[Man-of-the-Wold]

Yes, I agree that this matter is not really quantifiable or linear, but the percentages where they are large are worth speculating about. Still, there was nothing especially Elven about Aragorn, in any case, he was a man, and except for the sort of thing that one might observe with someone like Imrahil, Aragorn's children were probably all too human (with your essential Dunedain attributes, of course) in terms of basic appearance and whatever else, and not necessarily better than their decendents ten generations away, who might have then had only 0.4% elven blood rather than nearly 40%.

Actually, the case of Imrahil's ancestry as further explained in the Unfinished Tales is interesting. Seemingly, after the question was first dealt with (in the case of Earendil, Elwing, and their/Elrond's children) the offspring of Elf-man couplings were to be men, at least they were if not passing over the Sea with their Elven parent.

[burrahobbit]

Man = Elf = Human

The only difference is in the spirit.

Eldarion was a Man. All the way.