"Lord of the Rings" sequel!

[Sardy]

(Forgive me if the has been discussed before, but I looked and could find nothing...)

This is a thread for discussion of sequel(s) to The Lord of the Rings. What epic history do you think Tolkien might've envisioned for the Fourth (and Fifth, etc.) Age(s)? What writer might be capable of carrying on Tolkien's tradition and adding to Middle-earth? (Tolkien himself has stated that he always envisioned Middle-earth as an organic writing that could and should be added to...).

And also, what plans (had he lived long and not abandondoned it) might Tolkien have had for The New Shadow, his unfinished (barely started) sequel? True, he had his doubts about the project from the outset (but what writer doesn't?). Surely, the genius imagination that could grow The Lord of the Rings from the humble tale of The Hobbit, given time, would have made a remarkable piece from The New Shadow...!

You can read the beginnings of Tolkien's lost sequel here: http://www.btinternet.com/~fountain/tolkien/index.html

[narfforc]

Although Tolkien stated that he wanted the story to continue and grow, Christopher 'Gollum' Tolkien doesn't, and guards the legacy with zeal. Hopefully the next generations of Tolkiens will either pick up the standard, or let someone else. To continue a story into The Fourth Age is not beyond the skill of a good writer, what is though, is to do it like Tolkien, who in my view was unique.

[Elu Ancalime]

Although I think Tolkien knew what he was doing and new material would be beyond excitement, I like how everything ended fictionally speaking. Now I dont have a problem with Star Wars, but Im going to use it as an example. The six movies about Star Wars is can be seen in analogy to LotR structurally. The Fisrt three are the Silm and second age, and the last three the Hobbit, LotR, and all the stuff inbetween is, well, all the stuff inbetween. SO you see boundaries at Eru and the Death of Elassar compared to the beginning of Episode I, and the end of XI. But more books are made (referred to as Extened Universe) that are offshoots of the movie history and are kind of "off" as far as literature. Although the Death of the Emperor and Vader can be the End of the Conflict or climax, the books after wards mess that up. Because in one book the Emperor's spirit inhabits a clone of his physical self, and that really destroys the whole concept of Plot. Its very interesting and enjoyable, really! But....if something like The New Shadow came out, and it had an antagonist that was affecting something more than local, it would severly damage the Plot. Something talking about a rebellion in Rhun or something by unspecified character wouldnt damage the Plot, only the cannocality and "pureness." (I swear Im not a Nazi )

Somehow that isnt Tolkien-like. Sure you can argue that Lucas is still alive and Tolkien is not, but there isnt any new material that isnt purely made by Lucas anymore. So it is not "pure", if i may say. Tolkien is the real Eru, anything not made or justified by him is just....Not. Like some of the video games. In Battle for MIddle Earth 2, you get to play with Glorfindel and Gloin to name a few. The big example is Tom Bombadil. We all know him...but what if i told you this: In that game, you can "create" him, and he skips and turns when he moves across the map. He can attack! He does a "sonic sing" and it blasts through hordes of orcs! Now thats cool, but its not Tolkien obviously. So really, the way Tolkien "stopped" (whether by his death or feint, I dont know), it really was "perfect" literature. Everthing cannocal is straight from hiim and unspecific influence on him. So Im going to be an orthodox conservative; nobody touches Tolkien's books.
________
Buy solo vaporizer

[radagast]

Originally Posted by narfforc

Although Tolkien stated that he wanted the story to continue and grow, Christopher 'Gollum' Tolkien doesn't, and guards the legacy with zeal. Hopefully the next generations of Tolkiens will either pick up the standard, or let someone else. To continue a story into The Fourth Age is not beyond the skill of a good writer, what is though, is to do it like Tolkien, who in my view was unique.

Do you have a source about Christopher Tolkien not wanted anymore Middle Earth stories written? I am interested because I have some ideas for such a story, taking place in the Fourth Age. After working on the ideas, I was surprised to find that Tolkien's notes supported some of my plot ideas.

[Eorl of Rohan]

Well... Fanfics are fine as long as they stay fanfics, but if you are asking what I think you are asking, there's a thing called a 'copyright' in the USA. Of course you can't write a story based on Tolkien's universe and expect it to get published, Radagast. If you really wanted to do so and believe that your genius could match that of Tolkien's, then you *could* contact the Tolkien Estates and see if Christopher Tolkien would allow you to write a book based on the Tolkienesque universe. The Asimov Estates did, (though I reserve my judgment on whether it was a good call). But I think you need to be a pretty famous writer for C. Tolkien to even consider the request.

PS. By the way, you could try out this idea of yours at our RPG forums. It would be fun to have another roleplayer around, especially someone who writes well.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

I believe that in one of the HoME books -- in the chapter dealing with "The New Shadow," JRRT's own abandoned start to a sequel -- it is said that the reason he gave it up was because he felt it would not really add to the mythical/legendary aspect of his body of work. As I recall, he felt it would be just another adventure story, derivative of what had already been written and therefore redundant and superfluous. It would have been writing more just to write more, to satisfy his publishers and readers but not his own designs in creating and writing about his world.

I tend to agree with him. More adventures are things for the fan writers. A true sequel should be something more mythological in nature, bringing the cycle -- which Tolkien created to be a mythology for England -- another significant step closer to the historical world. The "new shadow" would probably not be another incarnation of Sauron, since Tolkien was clear that in the destruction of the Ring, so much of him was expended, he would never rise again. It could, however, be another fallen Maia -- or more likely, I think, fallen Men attempting to emulate the Dark Lords of previous ages. Inevitably, the dynasty of Aragorn and his heirs will fall. It did not survive into historical times. But why not? What happened that so totally obliterated evidence of that Golden Age in the distant past? Wars, pestilence, nature -- all of the above?

[Eorl of Rohan]

Originally Posted by Ibrîniðilpathânezel

Inevitably, the dynasty of Aragorn and his heirs will fall. It did not survive into historical times. But why not? What happened that so totally obliterated evidence of that Golden Age in the distant past? Wars, pestilence, nature -- all of the above?

The loss of the Sea of Faith, perhaps. Let me quote Matthew Arnold:

"The Sea of Faith
Was once, too, at the full, and round earth's shore
Lay like the folds of a bright girdle furl'd.
But now I only hear
Its melancholy, long, withdrawing roar,
Retreating, to the breath
Of the night-wind, down the vast edges drear
And naked shingles of the world."

We no longer believe in the Firstborn or the sons of Ainu, and as they faded from the hearts of men, they have, perhaps, faded from Middle Earth as well.

[garm]

"Although Tolkien stated that he wanted the story to continue and grow, Christopher 'Gollum' Tolkien doesn't, and guards the legacy with zeal."

He didn't you know. Neither is Christopher in any way Gollum- like.

If Tolkien really had wanted others to write stories set in his world, he could have forgone copyrighting his books; made them 'public domain'. He did not. What's more, it was Tolkien himself who set up his Estate, whose purpose is to carry out Tolkien's wishes as set out in his will. (this is the function of anyone's estate; including yours and mine, if we so wish). One of Tolkien's wishes was for copyright to remain with his family.

What Tolkien wrote was that he left all of his unpublished works - his 'literary assets' - to his trustees, requesting them to allow Christopher full access, "in order that he may act as my Literary Executor with full powers to publish edit alter rewrite or complete any work of mine which may be unpublished at my death or to destroy the whole or any part..." etc.

If Christopher were Gollum-like, we would not have Tolkien's translations of Sir Gawain and the Green Knight, Pearl, and Sir Orfeo (1975). Nor The Silmarillion (1977), nor any other of Tolkien's posthumously published works. Nor would Christopher have given permission for other scholars to edit his father's works; such as Beowulf and the Critics (Michael Drout) nor Roverandom (Hammond and Scull), nor create such a visually stunning work as 'JRR Tolkien: Artist and Illustrator'. (ditto)

Name-calling is not very constructive, don't you think? - and hardly helps an already tottery claim.

[deal_with_it]

Originally Posted by Sardy

(Forgive me if the has been discussed before, but I looked and could find nothing...)

This is a thread for discussion of sequel(s) to The Lord of the Rings. What epic history do you think Tolkien might've envisioned for the Fourth (and Fifth, etc.) Age(s)? What writer might be capable of carrying on Tolkien's tradition and adding to Middle-earth? (Tolkien himself has stated that he always envisioned Middle-earth as an organic writing that could and should be added to...).

And also, what plans (had he lived long and not abandondoned it) might Tolkien have had for The New Shadow, his unfinished (barely started) sequel? True, he had his doubts about the project from the outset (but what writer doesn't?). Surely, the genius imagination that could grow The Lord of the Rings from the humble tale of The Hobbit, given time, would have made a remarkable piece from The New Shadow...!

You can read the beginnings of Tolkien's lost sequel here: http://www.btinternet.com/~fountain/tolkien/index.html

I think the sequel would be how the Reunited Kingdom began to blossom, the cleansing and capitulation of Rhun and the Easterlings by Aragorn and Eomer. What ewent on with the remaining elves and the Shire. Basically everything that's mentioned in the Appendices, I suppose only in greater detail. We'd get to know the King's sons and learn about some of those lands on the edge of the map.

Another good story line would be about those lands on the edges of the maps that are we don't know much about (like the far far east).