Would the remaining elvish strongholds help Eomer and his exile riders?

[Victariongreyjoy]

In the movie he gets banished from Rohan. Would the Woodland Realm, Rivendell or Lothlorien give him and the exiles shelter and protection if he travelled there?

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Victariongreyjoy

In the movie he gets banished from Rohan. Would the Woodland Realm, Rivendell or Lothlorien give him and the exiles shelter and protection if he travelled there?

I have not watched the movie in ages but here is a Books-based answer: until Eomer met Aragorn, Gimli, Legolas, and later some other Elves, he firmly believed, like most of the Men of his time, that Elves are in some ways even more dangerous than Orcs, and it is deadly to have dealings with them. Therefore, it would not even occur to him to seek refuge in an Elven abode.

If he somehow did plead his case in some Elven kingdom, I feel like they would turn a sympathetic ear - I feel that Elves do that whenever a mortal is brave enough to seek them out and speak their case. However, that also requires Eomer to speak to the Elves in the manner of, say, Aragorn in Lorien or Beren in Nargothrond - or even Frodo with Gildor. And he is more likely to take after Boromir in his attitude towards Elves, which would not bode well for him. *cue to notch*

So, in a books-based answer, pre-War Eomer would be highly unlikely to seek aid with Elves, but if he had done it - and properly - they would probably hear him out. As for assistance, well, that's a different question, and depends on what exactly that entails in that alternate reality.

[Victariongreyjoy]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

I have not watched the movie in ages but here is a Books-based answer: until Eomer met Aragorn, Gimli, Legolas, and later some other Elves, he firmly believed, like most of the Men of his time, that Elves are in some ways even more dangerous than Orcs, and it is deadly to have dealings with them. Therefore, it would not even occur to him to seek refuge in an Elven abode.

If he somehow did plead his case in some Elven kingdom, I feel like they would turn a sympathetic ear - I feel that Elves do that whenever a mortal is brave enough to seek them out and speak their case. However, that also requires Eomer to speak to the Elves in the manner of, say, Aragorn in Lorien or Beren in Nargothrond - or even Frodo with Gildor. And he is more likely to take after Boromir in his attitude towards Elves, which would not bode well for him. *cue to notch*

So, in a books-based answer, pre-War Eomer would be highly unlikely to seek aid with Elves, but if he had done it - and properly - they would probably hear him out. As for assistance, well, that's a different question, and depends on what exactly that entails in that alternate reality.

Do you think a person like Theoden is more suitable negotiator than Eomer? Or even his forefather Eorl the Young?

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Victariongreyjoy

Do you think a person like Theoden is more suitable negotiator than Eomer? Or even his forefather Eorl the Young?

I don't think Theoden's view of Elves is much different than Eomer's - or any of the Rohirrim of their time, before the events of LOTR. It comes down to their cultural attitude towards Elves: we see it exemplified in Eomer, but he just voices the superstition of their people. Besides, being Wormtongue's puppet is a score against Theoden.

As for Eorl, he seemed like a guy willing to try weird and different things, who wasn't content to play it safe. In UT he seems less trustful of Lorien's good intentions than Borondir when he passed its mist, but he was also not particularly convinced that it should be evil. So perhaps if he were to turn into Lorien he would have kept a more open mind, or at least a more courteous manner, than would Eomer.

May I ask you a question in turn: why do you imagine these characters seeking aid in Lorien and other Elven Kingdoms? What would be driving these characters to the situation you describe? Why Elves - as opposed to other Men, who are much more familiar to the Rohirrim? And what would Eomer (Theoden, Eorl) be seeking with these people?

[Victariongreyjoy]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

I don't think Theoden's view of Elves is much different than Eomer's - or any of the Rohirrim of their time, before the events of LOTR. It comes down to their cultural attitude towards Elves: we see it exemplified in Eomer, but he just voices the superstition of their people. Besides, being Wormtongue's puppet is a score against Theoden.

As for Eorl, he seemed like a guy willing to try weird and different things, who wasn't content to play it safe. In UT he seems less trustful of Lorien's good intentions than Borondir when he passed its mist, but he was also not particularly convinced that it should be evil. So perhaps if he were to turn into Lorien he would have kept a more open mind, or at least a more courteous manner, than would Eomer.

May I ask you a question in turn: why do you imagine these characters seeking aid in Lorien and other Elven Kingdoms? What would be driving these characters to the situation you describe? Why Elves - as opposed to other Men, who are much more familiar to the Rohirrim? And what would Eomer (Theoden, Eorl) be seeking with these people?

Because I think a interaction between Rohan and the elves would be interesting. In the movie, the Rohirrim are being depicted as braver and strong willed than Gondor(unfortunately) Maybe skeptic like Elrond would be more encourage to help Rohan if they came to Rivendell and pleading for their cause. The elves who lived during the first age, when elves fought with the Edain side by side, might see a bit of that strength in the Rohirrim.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Victariongreyjoy

Because I think a interaction between Rohan and the elves would be interesting. In the movie, the Rohirrim are being depicted as braver and strong willed than Gondor(unfortunately) Maybe skeptic like Elrond would be more encourage to help Rohan if they came to Rivendell and pleading for their cause. The elves who lived during the first age, when elves fought with the Edain side by side, might see a bit of that strength in the Rohirrim.

My issue with that is it seems like wishful thinking reasoning. Eomer will interact with Elves because you want the interaction to happen - but not because Eomer himself has any reason to seek it out. Do you know what I mean? Is there a way the story could have gone differently, in the would of alternate universes and wannabe scenarios, that would make Eomer likely to seek Elves before Gimli turned his head on the right way? Does he end up in Lorien by accident? Does he meet a passing Elf (but who? Legolas is the first in his time that we know to pass through Rohan). He might end up in the neighbouring Lorien by a twist of fortune, and we can hope that he has the sense to speak politely and not wave his sword around while shouting Eorling counter-jinxes. But a trip to Rivendell or Mirkwood requires more backstory. If you were to reinvent the story, what would you have happen to make him undertake such a long journey to a fey land?

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Originally Posted by Victariongreyjoy

In the movie he gets banished from Rohan. Would the Woodland Realm....

Just one of my poet curmudgeonly peeves, but "Woodland Realm" is a movie-ism like "Fell Beasts."

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Just one of my poet curmudgeonly peeves, but "Woodland Realm" is a movie-ism like "Fell Beasts."

Whaaaat. No. Whaaaat?

Okay, I went trawling, and the term is used: Aragorn says it in TTT2 "The Riders of Rohan". "One only of us is an Elf, Legolas from the Woodland Realm in distant Mirkwood." I don't have a hardcopy of the books right now, so I can't check if the capitalisation appears in print, but it is in this version.

You may well be right that the movie is responsible for its prominence, though; Northern Mirkwood is also used (at the Council of Elrond), and seems a more obvious country name.

Interestingly, The Hobbit is kind of vague on whether N. Mirkwood is even a country. Thranduil's Halls are introduced with "In a great cave... there lived at this time their greatest king", which implies not only other Kings of the Wood-Elves, but also that Thranduil may move around.

hS

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Well, Tolkien used the term, as he did "fell beast," but in both cases without capitals and as a mere descriptive phrase. A realm, which was in woodlands, rather like a beast, which was fell (deadly, fearsome). It was the screenwriters who somehow converted them into proper names.

_______________________________

"Greatest" king is interesting, since it implies there were others. This makes little sense in the developed post-LR history, but did make some more sense when TH was written, and was kinda-sorta-maybe set in First Age Beleriand, and Thingol (whom the Elvenking more or less was) could be considered the "greatest" (given that this was post Beren and Luthien and thus after Fingolfin and Finrod were dead). Remember that at this early stage in the legendarium, the people of Beleriand or Ilkorins were not Eldar; nor were the Wood-elves even after TH was published until their later promotion from Avari to Nandor.