Etymology: Isengard and Helms Deep

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Rather infuriating a Danish radioshow have been spreading the word that Tolkien was inspired by easter Jutland when coming up for place names, but offer little in the way of proof.

The very concept of the show is that a caller will make an unsubstantiated claim, and then the show will attempt to confirm or debunk the claim.

In this case the claim is that the place names Helm's Deep and Isengard comes from easter Jutland where you will find the narrow strait Hjelm Dyb and the manor house Isgård.

The consensus seemed to be that this must be coincidence, until a self proclaimed Tolkien ekspert calls in and claims that it is very likely that Tolkien got inspired by the Danish place names as he studied that area extensively. He offers no more detail, but starts talking about Tolkien's correspondence with the future Queen Margrethe II.

As a Danish Tolkien nerd this have left me perplexed. I haven't heard that Tolkien should have dedicated time to studying eastern Jutland, besides his general interest in the nordic countries.

Obviously Tolkien could have been inspired, and then altered the name to better fit in with old english, but it doesn't seem likely, does it?

What do you think?

Have you ever heard about Tolkien having a special interest in eastern Jutland (more specifically Djurs), or have you perhaps come across the origins of these place names.

As a bonus I just found a comment on reddit where a user suggest that the nearby village of Eskerod, could be the inspiration of Esgaroth.

[Inziladun]

I will give the usual disclaimer that I am far from being a Tolkien scholar on the level of others.

However, it's my understanding that Isengard was simply a translation, consistent with other place names in Rohan, from the Sindarin name Angrenost.

And what's so complicated about Helm's Deep? As explained in Unfinished Tales, it was

A deep gorge near the north-western end of Ered Nimrais, at the entrance to which was built the Hornburg; named after King Helm, who took refuge from his enemies there in the Long Winter of Third Age 2758-9.

With the myriad numbers of place names in various countries and languages, coincidence alone can easily account for similarities between 'real' locales and those in the mythos.

[Galadriel55]

Agreed with Inzil. Two explanations: Tolkien had the backstory in mind when picking out names (e.g. the story of Helm Hammerhand who wintered in this keep) and used fitting names, or he reeeeally liked those two places on the Jutland map and made the backstory match the names. I think the former is the simpler explanation, without being a Tolkien expert of any kind.

A google search tells me that there actually is a River Isen in Bavaria, so if there really is a specific geographical inspiration for Saruman's abode, Germany might win this round.

Personally, I tend to see coincidence in the opposite direction. Like why is there a town in Italy named after Hurin's eldest. And the poor Dunedin, which I always feel the need to spell correctly, with an "a" after the "d". Not every sound-alike or look-alike is a real reference. So unless someone finds evidence that Tolkien actually had more affinity for eastern Jutland's geography than the average map, I will remain dubious about the influence here.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

People have constantly come up with this sort of nonsense, based on nothing more than sound coincidence; for example "Gondor is based on Gondar in Ethiopia." Um, no. (Especially if one is aware that the original name of the South Kingdom was Ond > Ondor > Gondor). We get similar silliness wrt to places themselves, like "The Two Towers" in Birmingham, or every other rural pub in Britain being the origin of the Prancing Pony, or the Ring of Silvianus nonsense.

in the very, very early period Tolkien equated some fictional locations with real-world places - Warwick, Great Heywood etc - but the names he coined for them in Quenya were naturally entirely different ones (Kortirion, Tavrobel).

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

I will give the usual disclaimer that I am far from being a Tolkien scholar on the level of others.

However, it's my understanding that Isengard was simply a translation, consistent with other place names in Rohan, from the Sindarin name Angrenost.

And what's so complicated about Helm's Deep? As explained in Unfinished Tales, it was



With the myriad numbers of place names in various countries and languages, coincidence alone can easily account for similarities between 'real' locales and those in the mythos.

Well, there is nothing complicated with the in universe etymology, but obviously it was something Tolkien worked a lot on and tinkered with to make fit.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Agreed with Inzil. Two explanations: Tolkien had the backstory in mind when picking out names (e.g. the story of Helm Hammerhand who wintered in this keep) and used fitting names, or he reeeeally liked those two places on the Jutland map and made the backstory match the names. I think the former is the simpler explanation, without being a Tolkien expert of any kind.

A google search tells me that there actually is a River Isen in Bavaria, so if there really is a specific geographical inspiration for Saruman's abode, Germany might win this round.

Personally, I tend to see coincidence in the opposite direction. Like why is there a town in Italy named after Hurin's eldest. And the poor Dunedin, which I always feel the need to spell correctly, with an "a" after the "d". Not every sound-alike or look-alike is a real reference. So unless someone finds evidence that Tolkien actually had more affinity for eastern Jutland's geography than the average map, I will remain dubious about the influence here.

I am not disagreeing, which is why it was so infuriating that it was suggested that Tolkien did have extensive knowledge about the area, but no references were given.

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

People have constantly come up with this sort of nonsense, based on nothing more than sound coincidence; for example "Gondor is based on Gondar in Ethiopia." Um, no. (Especially if one is aware that the original name of the South Kingdom was Ond > Ondor > Gondor). We get similar silliness wrt to places themselves, like "The Two Towers" in Birmingham, or every other rural pub in Britain being the origin of the Prancing Pony, or the Ring of Silvianus nonsense.

in the very, very early period Tolkien equated some fictional locations with real-world places - Warwick, Great Heywood etc - but the names he coined for them in Quenya were naturally entirely different ones (Kortirion, Tavrobel).

Isegård and Eskerod i don't find particular believable, though pronunciation wise Eskerod and Esgaroth are not far apart. The only thing that makes me raise an eyebrow is the suggestion that Tolkien should somehow have extensive knowledge about the area and the use of the word "deep".

Are there other examples of a cleft being called a deep? It is quite interesting Helms Deep and Hjelm Dyb have exactly the same meaning but in the danish translations Helm's Deep is called Helms Kløft as you would never call a cleft a deep in Danish.

[Huinesoron]

Probably the strongest argument against this is that Isengard didn't start out as Isengard! Its first mention (Home VII, 'Of Hamilcar...') is as "Angrobel (or Irongarth)". No Isen in sight!

Helm's Deep is even more tortured: it looks like it started out as Dimgraef, then picked up a Helm figure - as Heorulf's Clough. It took several iterations (Helmshaugh) to hit Helm's Deep, so unless Tolkien is imagined to just happen to glance up at a map of Jutland and go 'hey, that says "helm" too!' there's no plausible version of this notion.

hS