Anger in the Old Forest!

[Groin Redbeard]

I reading the Fellowship of the Ring a couple weeks ago when suddenly a question struck me (not literally of course): Why is there so much anger in the The Old Forest? Ever since the hobbits of Buckland can remember there has been great tension between the woods and the living things that dwell on it's borderes. I can never figure out why.

Now I'm not a genious, but I am a thinker. I've come up a hypothesis that the Old Forest is made up of the Entwives, and as it says in the the book, the Entwives left Fangorn because they had an argument with the Ents on whose land is best. The ents liked the untamed forests and natural growing of plants, while the entwives liked everything in neat rows, in a cultivated garden. I think some of the anger from this might have carried over. This also brings up another interesting question for me, was there a reason that Tom Bombadil dwelt so close to the forest, or was it purely by chance and not related at all the "angry forest."?

It's a long shot, but I thought it was still worth sharing with ya'll. Can anyone help me out here? Why is the Old Forest angry?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

I would say, the reason is simple as always. Compare to Fangorn (namely huorns). And even Merry says that. The trees don't like intruders. It may have something to do with the fact that the living (walking) beings tend to kill the trees (for wood) and such. And it may be that it is more like a "stereotypical xenophobia" than a conscious choice "let's be aware of these intruders".

[skip spence]

No the trees don't care for people. Remember, once a squirrel could jump from tree to tree all the way from the south of Gondor to what was later called the Shire. The Old Forest and Fangorn are some of the last remnants of this ancient forest, ever decimated by people and their need for timber. So I can see why the trees are a bit edgy around people.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

When I read the first post I knew how I would respond, unfortunately Legate and Mr. Spence used almost the exact same wording as I would have. . .

So I would just like to add that it seems improbable that The Old Forrest should be made by the entwives or that they should dwell there.

1. As Mr. Spence pointed out The Old Forrest and Fangorn used to be 1
2. The Entwives prefered their gardens
3. If the Entwives where to leave their home (the brown lands) for The Old Forrest, then the Ents would probably have detected them.

[Morwen]

This also brings up another interesting question for me, was there a reason that Tom Bombadil dwelt so close to the forest, or was it purely by chance and not related at all the "angry forest."?

It's mentioned at the Council of Elrond that Tom is in a self imposed retirement of sorts, withdrawn into a little land whose boundaries he will not cross. If what he desired was isolation or at least not being regularly disturbed, then living between the Old Forest and the Barrow Downs is a good choice.

[Eönwë]

Well, I'm sure there must have been some huorns.

But was Old Man Willow one? that would explain a lot.

[Nazgûl-king]

Perhaps the anger in the forest flows out of Old Man Willow to the rest of the trees, as he seems to be the heart of the forest and the book says that the Withywindle valley where Old Man Willow was is "the centre from which all the queerness comes". I could see Old man Willow being the type to keep the trees angry and full of hate.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by skip spence

Of course. I don't know what is and what isn't a huorn, ent or tree. Guess my point is that the huorns at Helm's Deep seem very different to Old Man Willow, how should I say, more "alive" and mobile. Old Man Willow is very much a tree, despite his cunning and dark influence.

Well, if you look at what Treebeard says, the trees are actually awakening, which is a process, so there may be "just a tree", then "a tree which feels the presence of others stronger", then "a tree who can move his branch", then "a tree who can move his roots", then "a tree who can actually walk 5 km/h" or something like that. So you see, Old Man Willow may simply be lower on this "awakening ladder" than the Huorns from Helm's Deep are. Or, he simply doesn't want to move. If nothing else, he can move his branches and roots (using both to push Frodo into the water) and make openings in itself to imprison the Hobbits. Of course, if he really is not something different - but something like a huorn is as much probable as anything else, I'd say.

Originally Posted by Nazgûl-king

Perhaps the anger in the forest flows out of Old Man Willow to the rest of the trees, as he seems to be the heart of the forest and the book says that the Withywindle valley where Old Man Willow was is "the centre from which all the queerness comes". I could see Old man Willow being the type to keep the trees angry and full of hate.

Funnily enough, I always associated the "queerness" Merry spoke about with Tom Bombadil; thus, misinterpretating it, or misunderstanding the way it goes in the forest. That's just to mention it, however.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Well, if you look at what Treebeard says, the trees are actually awakening, which is a process, so there may be "just a tree", then "a tree which feels the presence of others stronger", then "a tree who can move his branch", then "a tree who can move his roots", then "a tree who can actually walk 5 km/h" or something like that. So you see, Old Man Willow may simply be lower on this "awakening ladder" than the Huorns from Helm's Deep are. Or, he simply doesn't want to move. If nothing else, he can move his branches and roots (using both to push Frodo into the water) and make openings in itself to imprison the Hobbits. Of course, if he really is not something different - but something like a huorn is as much probable as anything else, I'd say.


Funnily enough, I always associated the "queerness" Merry spoke about with Tom Bombadil; thus, misinterpretating it, or misunderstanding the way it goes in the forest. That's just to mention it, however.

I don't think you could describe Old Man Willow as lower than the Huorns, I see him as more powerful, but I think the right word to use would be "different". You seem to work with the idea that that "awakening of trees" go by a very specifick pattern, I see no reason for that and I do think the ents are important in this matter. I belive that the entish presence in Fangorn incourages a sertain type of development for trees that are wakening up, but not controling it. This awakening is probably also happening in the Old Forrest, but the trees have no ents to learn fro and so creates their own type of society, whith Old Man Willow as the maestro.

So I belive you might be right in saying that Old Man Willow does not want to move. . .why should he? He pretty much controls the forrest so that he can get people let to him and when they arrive he makes them fall a sleep. When you can do that, then why should you move if you have found a nice spot. . .come to think of it, I don't think that trees after they learn to walk is tinking "oh this is brilliant, now I can play football, run the marathorn and hunt down squirrels" I think it is more of a useful tool that they might use, but that they mostly stand still and act. . .well treeish.

Anyways, Legate's theory of the development latter leaves us with a question: When does trees gain awareness (or thoughts if you may)

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Rune Son of Bjarne

I don't think you could describe Old Man Willow as lower than the Huorns, I see him as more powerful, but I think the right word to use would be "different". You seem to work with the idea that that "awakening of trees" go by a very specifick pattern, I see no reason for that and I do think the ents are important in this matter. I belive that the entish presence in Fangorn incourages a sertain type of development for trees that are wakening up, but not controling it. This awakening is probably also happening in the Old Forrest, but the trees have no ents to learn fro and so creates their own type of society, whith Old Man Willow as the maestro.

Well I never meant the "lower" thing in any other sense than as "lower" on the line from a tree towards an Ent, as I outlined it (with 5km/h the walking trees etc.). Of course the views may be many and the movement away from "just a tree" can be made in several ways - a tree may start to "think" differently, or have other powers... and in any case, I don't think the presence of Ents themselves has anything to do with the process of the awakening. Quite the opposite, when you read the whole part in the book from which I quoted above, Treebeard emphasises among other things the task of the "tree-herders" as controlling these awakened trees, especially those with "bad hearts", i.e. simply the Ents are responsible for the trees in all aspects, and the awakening seems more like something that is not quite welcome, mainly because of the possibility of its ill effects when a "bad" tree (like Old Man Willow?) awakens. So the problem is opposite: in the Old Forest, there is none (except Bombadil) to watch over the awakened trees, no tree-herders, and that may be a part of the reason why Old Forest is as tainted by Old Man Willow's will as it is. And actually, Treebeard implies (although I am rather convinced that here he does not really know anything and is talking with the Hobbits about something he doesn't know) that the awakening of the Old Forest has something to do with the lingering evil of Morgoth - that's somewhat far-fetched assumption, I think; but anyway, what I said before, I believe, should apply in any case.

Anyways, Legate's theory of the development latter leaves us with a question: When does trees gain awareness (or thoughts if you may)

I think the only information we can gather about that is what Treebeard tells the Hobbits.

[Eönwë]

I thknk that Old Man Willow, is awakening (or has awakened), but went through more of a mental than physical change. He can move his brances, but they're still branches, not arms as such.

Anyway, I get a sense that because he's so old, his roots have spread throughout most of the forest. Like they've sort of become mixed with the ground, and are entwined (not entwifed) with all the other roots of younger trees. It sounds like that to me when treebeard describes it.

I don't think he really needs to walk.