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Old 09-02-2020, 04:36 PM   #241
Huinesoron
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Woo! I'm listening to the instrumental now, but have already put together the graphics for the intro, because, uh... I didn't see that you'd finished the whole thing. ^_^

Here's the intro, which looks pretty much how I wanted it to (though I could wish it were smoother). The same effect will continue with the starfield throughout the sung part, though slower.

And yes, that's a view of exactly what you think it is. ^_~

(... and the forests are linden on the left, maple on the right, because I couldn't help myself).

Okay, I've test-sung it now, and nothing jumped out as really not working, so I'm happy. Not sure when we'll get it finished, but we shall see.

I like the interpretation of Amarie as a voice for the whole world (but then, I've been a Finrod fan for a long time...!). I'm now wondering whether we should switch 'Wind' back before 'Finrod's Last Song'; he goes off to die, then we get the mourning, and then he turns it around into a moral victory. (Also, it would deal with the fact that the current version doesn't include the main character for the final three songs!)

hS
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Old 09-02-2020, 06:09 PM   #242
Galadriel55
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Originally Posted by Huinesoron View Post
Woo! I'm listening to the instrumental now, but have already put together the graphics for the intro, because, uh... I didn't see that you'd finished the whole thing. ^_^
It's amazing how much free time you have when you don't spend 10-12 hours at work on a regular day. ^.^ (aka I am on a new rotation with gloriously light hours and suddenly found myself with a bunch of free time). Amd free time spurred me to a quick finish.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
Here's the intro, which looks pretty much how I wanted it to (though I could wish it were smoother). The same effect will continue with the starfield throughout the sung part, though slower.
That looks amazing! (And yes, the view is very identifiable ). I thought the transitions were very smooth. The effect is really cool. I really really like it.

There is absolutely no rush to finish it. In fact, it makes me feel a bit better that for once we swap places and I am not the one determining the pace. :-)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
(... and the forests are linden on the left, maple on the right, because I couldn't help myself).
Hehe... So many trees to choose from. A few weeks ago I took my brother out on a nature walk, and the scenery was pretty Middle-earthy, with a pretty river and rocks and trees. And I had the Zong stuck in my head, of course. And it came to me that my dress was kinda cosplaying V2 Amarie. So I made my brother do a little photoshoot in character (attached). Sadly the willows weren't weeping willows, or that would have been an excellent pun. And no mist or deepening shadows, just the burning light of day.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
I like the interpretation of Amarie as a voice for the whole world (but then, I've been a Finrod fan for a long time...!). I'm now wondering whether we should switch 'Wind' back before 'Finrod's Last Song'; he goes off to die, then we get the mourning, and then he turns it around into a moral victory. (Also, it would deal with the fact that the current version doesn't include the main character for the final three songs!)
I think that depends on how we interpret both Amarie's and Finrod's songs. My initial interpretation of Wind was "I sense your death, I am grieving, my grief is translated to how I see the world, and I hope you come back to me" - very Amarie-centered. My new interpretation is Finrod-centered: your death is a blow, the world is different without you in it, nature itself is changed because of how much you are loved and how much you are being grieved. I think there is an element of both, really, but I like the addition of the second layer.

As for Truth - I interpreted it initially to fall on the moment of Finrod's death. His last thought, before he "steps through the gate", so to speak. Wind clearly references his already-happened-death and potential rebirth, I am not sure if that can be said truly before Finrod dies. But here is a thought: could Truth occur after the moment of death? En route to Mandos or something? Would it lose potency if it was detached from his death (at the end of Prison Duet)? When does Truth occur? Because that determined the chronoligy with Wind as well. I do agree that mood and moral development suggests Duet - Wind - Truth, but at the same time I am not sure of that works out logically based on the actual content of the lyrics, unless I sshift my mind to reinterpret some things.



Edit: I was rewatching the previous videos, and only now realized that the stars reflected in Esgalduin (or whichever Doriath river) are the Valacirca. Man, I was slow on the uptake!
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Old 09-03-2020, 03:21 AM   #243
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Hehe... So many trees to choose from. A few weeks ago I took my brother out on a nature walk, and the scenery was pretty Middle-earthy, with a pretty river and rocks and trees. And I had the Zong stuck in my head, of course. And it came to me that my dress was kinda cosplaying V2 Amarie. So I made my brother do a little photoshoot in character (attached). Sadly the willows weren't weeping willows, or that would have been an excellent pun. And no mist or deepening shadows, just the burning light of day.
See, you've found a much nicer river than the one they used in V1 Doriath; I'd much rather have drawn this one! But that's all water under the bridge unless I get really bored.

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As for Truth - I interpreted it initially to fall on the moment of Finrod's death. His last thought, before he "steps through the gate", so to speak. Wind clearly references his already-happened-death and potential rebirth, I am not sure if that can be said truly before Finrod dies. But here is a thought: could Truth occur after the moment of death? En route to Mandos or something? Would it lose potency if it was detached from his death (at the end of Prison Duet)? When does Truth occur? Because that determined the chronoligy with Wind as well. I do agree that mood and moral development suggests Duet - Wind - Truth, but at the same time I am not sure of that works out logically based on the actual content of the lyrics, unless I sshift my mind to reinterpret some things.
V2 Truth is sung by Finrod dressed all in white. I've always seen it as 'Finrod's journey to Mandos', rather than him literally singing as he dies (I mean, Sauron kills him in this version, he wouldn't really have time for a solo!). If it comes after Wind, then we have Amarie singing that she's sending the wind to carry him home, followed by Finrod accepting that journey. I think it works - whereas when she was just moping, it didn't.

Also, once we've finished everything and put it all together, having him fade out to his death followed immediately by sunset over the dead Trees would be very powerful. ^_~

(Still deciding whether to include a moonset towards the end of the song; I'm inclined yes, but will see how it looks.)

I've also made a few lyrics edit to Wind, because there were some very clumsy lines in there. Highlighted in the Libretto if you want to take a look, but it's just minor edits. (Have also listened to your rough-cut, which highlighted a few of those lines for me.) The only one that still bugs me is that 'fingered branches' one, but I can't come up with a better; it needs the webs/death 'rhyme' too much.

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Edit: I was rewatching the previous videos, and only now realized that the stars reflected in Esgalduin (or whichever Doriath river) are the Valacirca. Man, I was slow on the uptake!
Let me tell you, I am so annoyed that I couldn't show the Sickle in either of the Valinor images. But I need to look west, and it hangs in the north, so I've had to make do with Menelmacar.

You asked somewhere about next songs - I has no preferences. I'm happy to draw whatever comes up.

hS
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Old 09-03-2020, 05:49 AM   #244
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Your Doriath river looks pretty! Theirs is maybe not the best, I agree. I didn't realize they were supposed to be the same scene. But now I have to look at the videos to find Menelmacar, because I missed that detail too.

I agree that if Truth is en route to Mandos, then Wind can be the announcement of death instead and preceed it. But we need to make it very clear in our Truth music and visuals what we are intending it to represent. Let's move Wind up.

For fingered branches: how about "slender-fingered"?
Also, the rhyme is not that strong anyways, not between pathway/die nor webs/death, because rather than fall on the downbeat as in Russian, the rhyming syllable in the first set falls on the offbeat. The rhyming scheme can also be changed to match the AABB of the first two refrains rather than ABAB. I don't feel strongly about leaving it vs changing it, I will leave it up to you.

With the edit we lost what I think is the only use of "destiny" in the musical. For something that talks about fate a lot, that's one synonym we've pretty much manahed to avoid somehow. Doesn't rhyme well? Clumsier word? Anyways, just abstracted musings.

I started working on the Elven choir, and if all goes well this weekend we might be able to showcase some work.
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Old 09-03-2020, 06:35 AM   #245
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PS: thinking that is part of Captivity will be recorded soon, I better figure some stuff out. Firstly, would Celebestel like to be part of the choir? I could leave a musical line free for her. The second question is about the lyrics. I am nkt too happy with "and despite heavy load". Can we change that somehow? Set on shadowy road? Daring shadowy road? Set on perilous road?
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Old 09-03-2020, 08:59 PM   #246
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Also in preparation for the potential group recording on the weekend, I sketched out 3 voice lines for the choir part. My plan is to split them up into separate files, so that we can hear each line individually, and use that to guide the recording. If it works out it will be pretty cool.

I will not have much time between now and our meeting on Saturday to adjust things. So if there is a spot of music that you liked better in the performances (and mine sounds different, because I wasn't following either one exactly) - let me know so I can change it on time. Same for the choir lyrics.

Unless you have preferences/suggestions, I think I am leaning towards either "Set on perilous road" - or even "In defiance of Woe". Because "load" was there to rhyme with "boat", which became "floe", so... Going back closer to the original meaning, and getting rid of the "load". What do you say to "in defiance of Woe"?


Other less urgent thoughts on lyrics:
- Who would dare to challenge me --> Who has dared to challenge me?
- Next to him, the rest of them - nothing wrong with this line, but for some reason it's not hitting the target in my brain. I am happy for it to stay, just consodering the possibility of alternatives. Next to him, this ragged lot? Other Eldar next to him? Dunno, maybe just stick with what's there.
- Any thoughts on the ambiguous stanza about who is paying which price? I think it makes sense the way it is now (Sauron says this is the payment for impertinence/stubbornness, Finrod says it's also the payment for keeping his honour, and they are referring to the same thing so it synchs up).

Also, would Finrod sing along with the choir, as in V1, or only sing the solo, as in V2? Or something in between - like only starting singing mid-way? I don't think this affects what the choir does, as he would just join the dominant melody line if he joins them.
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Old 09-04-2020, 02:52 AM   #247
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Celebestel is happy to be in the choir or not, as the needs of the recording demand.

'In defiance of Woe' is good, I like that. 'Who has dared' too. ... and 'this ragged lot'. I think the 'price' section makes sense at the moment, or at least doesn't obviously not make sense.

I like the music! Nothing jumped out as bad, so just go with it. As for Finrod... the V1 recording isn't high-quality enough for me to even tell he was singing! So my instinct is that he doesn't (to make his coming in later more impactful), but it uppa you.

Still poking the lyrics on 'Wind'... I've taken the slender-fingered branches down to a single web, which I think helps. Still not sure when we'll record it.

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Old 09-04-2020, 08:45 AM   #248
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Celebestel is happy to be in the choir or not, as the needs of the recording demand.
There is a melody line for her if she wants one. Or, we can do all three melody lines with one of us doubling up, and she can reinforce the main melody - whatever she prefers. Maybe that's actually a good idea, to make it like there are more singers. If we're using technology to augment talent, we might as well use it to the fullest.

But simple answer - there is no demand, only whatever she wants to do!

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Originally Posted by Hui
I like the music! Nothing jumped out as bad, so just go with it. As for Finrod... the V1 recording isn't high-quality enough for me to even tell he was singing! So my instinct is that he doesn't (to make his coming in later more impactful), but it uppa you.
Ha! In V1 all I heard was Finrod and Beren singing, with "Edrahil"'s voice heard as the higher voice occasionally, so I just imagined voices fading out until Finrod is the only one left. With the low quality, I guess you can hear all you want in there! This just goes to show.
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Old 09-08-2020, 07:56 PM   #249
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So this is what me and my friend, who shall henceforth be known as Elanor, were up to this weekend. I think we might re-record to clean it up a bit, and then figure out a better way to synchronize the recordings.

In the meantime, I cracked Sauron's melody - it's actually Finrod's lines at the end that I'm not sure about. So I have a workable sketch (played a touch slower than the choir recordings were done). How do you feel about the speed? I thought it would be too slow when I was preparing the Elf part, but now hearing Sauron's lines in between it sounds too fast...



PS: For Celebestel and anyone else who wants to take part... Here are the separated files for Voice 1, 2, and 3. Or sing whatever seems right.

PPS: seeing that this idea actually has potential for sounding good, I now have a bunch of ideas for how to make it sound even cooler... ^.^
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Old 09-10-2020, 01:39 AM   #250
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Hurrah! I've had a mental sing-through of the sketch and it all sounds good; no problems with the speed. I admit I can't make head nor tail of how the different choir sections line up, but it does sound good!

I think the backdrop for this one will be a repeat of Sauron's throneroom from the Duel, but with ice growing thicker and thicker on every surface as the song progresses. That should be doable. I'll still need to draw the Chorus, though.

Speaking of drawing, I finally have Amarie's portrait ready for Wind, which means I should be able to assemble the graphics. Just waiting on the vocals (which might have been done earlier, but I keep forgetting my headset...!)

(Also: Galadriel, Elanor, and a Celeb- : I feel very left out of the Lorien Club! ^_~)

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Old 09-12-2020, 12:10 PM   #251
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A fly-by post to say two things:

a) I've finished the animation for Wind, and will hopefully get it all recorded soon.

b) I've flung together a sketch audio of Captivity, stretching your choir sections to fit the music (they're at 98% speed now) and voicing all the solos myself. Which led me to an... interesting way of differentiating Beren. Never Again, but it works for this sketch. (Also, yes, I know I missed the tune a lot.) Captivity - Vocal Sketch

c) Did I say 'two'...? I pulled together a bunch of links to different performances in the Libretto; they're down in Appendix A. Of special note is the 2020 ultra-condensed 'play' version, and the adorable 'garden play' from 2012ish.

EDIT: d) I've also attempted to rebalance the audio on the Lament: Here it is. I can adjust any piece of the vocals that needs it, I just need to know which. ^_^

hS

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Old 09-12-2020, 02:25 PM   #252
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Originally Posted by Huinesoron View Post
I think the backdrop for this one will be a repeat of Sauron's throneroom from the Duel, but with ice growing thicker and thicker on every surface as the song progresses. That should be doable. I'll still need to draw the Chorus, though.
The ice idea sounds cool! I am sure it will turn out great.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
(Also: Galadriel, Elanor, and a Celeb- : I feel very left out of the Lorien Club! ^_~)
Surely the Eagles of the Misty Mountains come to visit every now and again, not just to give Gandalf a lift? By the way - what does "huine" mean in your name?

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a) I've finished the animation for Wind, and will hopefully get it all recorded soon.
Yay!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
b) I've flung together a sketch audio of Captivity, stretching your choir sections to fit the music (they're at 98% speed now) and voicing all the solos myself. Which led me to an... interesting way of differentiating Beren. Never Again, but it works for this sketch. (Also, yes, I know I missed the tune a lot.) Captivity - Vocal Sketch
Out comes the Taliskan! I'll see if I can pull some strings and convince someone to sing Beren. It's only two lines in this song, it shouldn't be that big of a commitment.

Uhhh, we definitely need to re-record the choir. Hearing it with the accompaniment just emphasizes the spots that need to be fixed. I will try to arrange with Elanor to get that done this week. And if we redo everything, we'll do it at the slightly slower pace - unless you wanna go even slower? It's all up for grabs still.

Something is also not right with the final 2 paragraphs, but I figured I'll listen to them again in the different versions and figure it out when I get to them. Right now I am on "Through years of hardship".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
c) Did I say 'two'...? I pulled together a bunch of links to different performances in the Libretto; they're down in Appendix A. Of special note is the 2020 ultra-condensed 'play' version, and the adorable 'garden play' from 2012ish.
How did you find that?! I thought I searched the length and breadth of Youtube when I was first posting about the different versions. I have seen clips of some of the performances, but not the whole collections. And not the 2020 and garden plays.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
d) I've also attempted to rebalance the audio on the Lament: Here it is. I can adjust any piece of the vocals that needs it, I just need to know which. ^_^
It sounds good! Tbh, when I was rewatching the videos a while ago, I thought you'd already done it, because they sounded good. Maybe it's because I am so used to paying all attention to the musical details and hearing the music alone that the first few times I hear it with voice it sounds weird, but then maybe I just get used to it and it doesn't sound like such a contrast... I don't know. But this one sounds good! (comparing directly with the video - I probably do like the new version better)

EDIT: speaking of rewatching the finished videos... I went back to the Duel to try and find Menelmacar - it's Orion, right? Sadly the only part of Orion I can normally recognize is the belt, which is hard to find with all the stars being the same "brightness". I looked up what the full constellation is supposed to look like on Google, and I thought I could make him out peeking from behind Finrod. Is that the spot?

EDIT 2: I was productive today. Done up to "when I am left alone in this darkness". I will have to see how the choir part sounds with the voices on top. I like the way Finrod's "I was a proud king" stanza turned out. But I feel like Sauron's lines are a bit empty. I might change them up a bit. Yea or nay?
(Edit to the edit: I accidentally recorded with the faster speed. Oh bugger.)
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Old 09-13-2020, 02:12 PM   #253
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By the way - what does "huine" mean in your name?
'Shadow'. It's the Quenya cognate of Taur-na-Fuin, though not quite as ominous. Depending on how I-made-this-name-in-2002 I'm feeling the name means anything from 'The shadow of an Eagle's wings as it passes overhead' to 'Evil Shadow-eagle'.

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Uhhh, we definitely need to re-record the choir. Hearing it with the accompaniment just emphasizes the spots that need to be fixed. I will try to arrange with Elanor to get that done this week. And if we redo everything, we'll do it at the slightly slower pace - unless you wanna go even slower? It's all up for grabs still.
I'm happy with either speed; I know my own recording needs redoing, so take all the time you need.

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How did you find that?! I thought I searched the length and breadth of Youtube when I was first posting about the different versions. I have seen clips of some of the performances, but not the whole collections. And not the 2020 and garden plays.
Mucking about while 'working' is a great incentive. ^_^ I think the 2020 version probably went up after you searched, if that helps.

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It sounds good! Tbh, when I was rewatching the videos a while ago, I thought you'd already done it, because they sounded good.
Heh. I need to redo a couple of slides in the Lament anyway, so I'll put it all in at once.

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Speaking of rewatching the finished videos... I went back to the Duel to try and find Menelmacar - it's Orion, right?
It is Orion, but, um... I can't see it either. I'm sure I drew it, but it's gotten all hidden. :-/

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Done up to "when I am left alone in this darkness".
Sounds good! My usual 'I don't know music' response fits well here, I think. ^_~

... and! Right, right, right! We have a video!

Wind (Amarie's Dream)

I may be biased, but I think Celebestel did an amazing job here. I also really like the graphic effects - but also am never doing them again. There's 112 separate images in this video.

This is also Finrod V3, who will be put back into the previous videos when I get a chance.

hS
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Old 09-13-2020, 08:16 PM   #254
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... and! Right, right, right! We have a video!
OMG!!!

The leaves are fantastic. I can see why you are never doing that again, but it was totally worth it.

I think the only thing now missing from it being perfect is a wind-blowing sound effect at the end. ^.^
(May I recommend using a sippet of this recording? Or is it too much fuss to add more sounds?)



Today my plan was to finish Captivity up to the confusing part. And then I figured out my mistake that made it confusing. And then I finished Finrod's section. And added an ending. And edited the spots that were bothering me. And basically, I'm happy with it, except that I will likely need to edit the choir sections once I hear what it sounds like with the voice - I haven't done any of that yet. I am particularly pleased with the second half of the piece, when Finrod starts singing solo onwards. I feel like my musical creativity in the first half went into the vocals, but the second half has more character. And I think it sounds epic enough to make up for whatever small errors I accumulated in the melody. I like it.
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Old 09-14-2020, 01:28 AM   #255
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Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
I think the only thing now missing from it being perfect is a wind-blowing sound effect at the end. ^.^
(May I recommend using a sippet of this recording? Or is it too much fuss to add more sounds?)
Nope, I can do that easily. Are you thinking after the music ends (so over the credits), or during one or more of the 'just the wind's?

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Today my plan was to finish Captivity up to the confusing part. And then I figured out my mistake that made it confusing. And then I finished Finrod's section. And added an ending. And edited the spots that were bothering me. And basically, I'm happy with it
'aaaay, that's gorgeous! Definitely looking forward to singing it. (And finally, Beren gets a line... I'm inordinately amused that this means Luthien and the Sons of Feanor are the last vocalists to be heard, at least if you ignore the orcs.)

Unrelatedly: lyric mismatch! Amarie calls Finrod my lord of constant change, but back in his Ballad, Finrod talks about my own unchanging nature. These don't technically conflict - my interpretation of Amarie's line is that Finrod keeps flitting from project to project ('Nargowhere? I'm hanging out with mortals now!'), but not that his fundamental nature changes - but it's still an odd mismatch.

I really like the 'lord of constant change' line, so if either is changed I would prefer to change Finrod's. But... to what? 'my ever-changing nature' or 'my own inconstant nature' would scan, but imply something I don't think is fair to the character.

EDIT: Flyby link drop... the Zong videos all appear to be taken from vk.com. Google is perfectly capable of finding all videos with 'Финрод-Зонг' in the title/description on vk, and can even filter to just the long ones. I bet there's stuff here we haven't seen (and will check at lunchtime).

EDIT2: Yep! There's another outdoor version, a 2018 concert split across 16 unconnected videos (all linked in Appendix A), and... er, whatever this is. There's definite Zong music in there, but also stuff I don't recognise (and even some narrative sections!). Given that it's from 2019, some of the weird stuff might possibly be the Daeron songs - want to take a look?

EDIT3: The 2019 video appears to consist of: Ballad to Amarie, Oath, Aria, Unknown 1 (Elvish Walking Song), Unknown 2 (Elvish Drinking Song), a non-sung Duel (presented rather charmingly as a chess game), Unknown 3 (Elven Mourning Song), Epilogue. So yeah, I really have no idea what's going on. The people behind it seem to be trying to do a full Beren and Luthien ?musical ?film ?horse show, but why they've used big chunks of the Zong is beyond me.

hS

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Old 09-14-2020, 08:03 AM   #256
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Brief note:

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Originally Posted by Huinesoron View Post
EDIT3: The 2019 video appears to consist of: Ballad to Amarie, Oath, Aria, Unknown 1 (Elvish Walking Song), Unknown 2 (Elvish Drinking Song), a non-sung Duel (presented rather charmingly as a chess game), Unknown 3 (Elven Mourning Song), Epilogue. So yeah, I really have no idea what's going on. The people behind it seem to be trying to do a full Beren and Luthien ?musical ?film ?horse show, but why they've used big chunks of the Zong is beyond me.
This made me curious, because when you said "chest game" I had an idea that this might be drawing again from the fanfic I just read. And then the statue of Amarie and some of Finrod's words confirmed that idea. It was settled when the Sons of Feanor showed up, they bring up a point that's entirely fanfic and does not occur in the originals. I haven't watched past that point yet, but I bet you this version is based on the fic that ?possibly inspired the Zong. I have a feeling I'm gonna have to translate it, or at least summarize it, after all.
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Old 09-14-2020, 09:19 AM   #257
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Nope, I can do that easily. Are you thinking after the music ends (so over the credits), or during one or more of the 'just the wind's?
I don't know, not sure what it sounds like. I can definitely hear it over the end credits - possibly during the intro - but I'm not sure if it would interfere with vocals if done over them. Though "just the winds" shouldn't be too affected. Whatever sounds good? It would be a cool little detail.

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Originally Posted by Hui
'aaaay, that's gorgeous! Definitely looking forward to singing it. (And finally, Beren gets a line... I'm inordinately amused that this means Luthien and the Sons of Feanor are the last vocalists to be heard, at least if you ignore the orcs.)
Ah, but the orcs are going to be so gloriously off tune and relishing it!

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Originally Posted by Hui
Unrelatedly: lyric mismatch! Amarie calls Finrod my lord of constant change, but back in his Ballad, Finrod talks about my own unchanging nature. These don't technically conflict - my interpretation of Amarie's line is that Finrod keeps flitting from project to project ('Nargowhere? I'm hanging out with mortals now!'), but not that his fundamental nature changes - but it's still an odd mismatch.
I dislike that line in the Russian very much, for many reasons. One of them is that it's more accusative: "my inconstant / fickle lord". Which I interpreted as Amarie still steaming at Finrod for letting her know of his love for him and then leaving Valinor. And it makes me want to yell in her face: you're the one who's being fickle, unable to decide if you've understood Finrod or not, if you've forgiven him or not, you were supposed to get over this point back in Heart! Finrod is faithful, that's a defining attribute of his character, and if you don't get how he left you but if still faithful, he doesn't deserve you.

... But "lord of constant change" is open to interpretation, and doesn't carry the same unfair accusation.

With regards to Ballad, the Russian doesn't have "unchanging" there. It's "[One] can't curse that I am created this way". I think "unchanging" is not out of place there, because it emphasizes that some things you can change, but some things you're stuck with, you're just made that way. Finrod can't not help a friend in need, he can't not follow his brothers to Beleriand, he can't not follow Beren to Angband. I don't think it necessarily conflicts. However, it's also possible to replace either instance of "change", I don't think either one is that critical that it can't be replaced. I don't think it should me "my own inconstant nature" though, I think that is the opposite of both what he is and what he is trying to say.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
EDIT3: The 2019 video appears to consist of: Ballad to Amarie, Oath, Aria, Unknown 1 (Elvish Walking Song), Unknown 2 (Elvish Drinking Song), a non-sung Duel (presented rather charmingly as a chess game), Unknown 3 (Elven Mourning Song), Epilogue. So yeah, I really have no idea what's going on. The people behind it seem to be trying to do a full Beren and Luthien ?musical ?film ?horse show, but why they've used big chunks of the Zong is beyond me.
So I can now confirm that this is an abbreviated and incomplete (they warn so in the beginning) rendition of the fanfic - though I don't think they've ever mentioned it by name. The Elvish Walking Song is Finrod's spell that transforms the group into Orcs. The Drinking Song is Beren (notice the plaid?) drowning his shame in wine in Dorthonion, surrounded by servants of Sauron who are there to make sure he does what he's told and kinda hope to convert him to Morgothism (the last one to sing - that's Thuringwethil). The chess-like game is also a symbolic scene from the fic, where Sauron tries to get Finrod to open up while Beren is off in Dorthonion. A brief segue here - the main plot deviation of the fanfic is that Beren, like any rational dude, initially doesn't count on just walking into Angband and demanding a Silmaril, he rather plans a military campaign (that sets the grounds for the Union for Maedhros later) which starts by reclaiming Dorthonion as a strategic territory. When he and Finrod are captured by Sauron, Beren reveals Luthien and the Silmarils and whatnot but keeps the Dorthonion plans secret, and agrees to serve Sauron for a year in exchange for Finrod's life. He is sent to serve Morgoth's army in Dorthonion (which is not as depopulated as The Sil made me imagine). Without giving away the ending of that sub-plot, eventually he rushes back to save Finrod, hoping that he will arrive before he is killed, but he is recaptured - and from that point on, the plot of the Lay/Sil resumes without major changes, starting from the wolf pit on TIG.

It's interesting that they didn't include Truth, which is the only Zong song that has a direct reference to the fic and makes me believe the theory that one inspired the other. The "arrow set in flight" metaphor is one that is used twice in the fic to describe Finrod.
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Old 09-14-2020, 10:01 AM   #258
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Exciting! Do you know if they keep all the song lyrics the same?

I've just been watching the 2020 stageplay, which is very pretty, but also very neatly gets rid of That Thingol Moment: it casts the Thingol-Melian duet as taking place during the meeting with Beren (Thingol threatens him with a sword!), and then cuts the duet off hard to segue straight into the Aria.

I'm now wishing desperately that it was possible to move the Quarrel to after the Duel, and have it cut off not by Thingol, but by Luthien. I don't think it's possible without rewriting Cel'n'Cur's opening lines, sadly - they're too obviously talking directly after Finrod leaves.

Also the shift might take the focus away from Team Finrod for two long, with three back-to-back Feanorian numbers. Ah, well.

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Old 09-14-2020, 08:03 PM   #259
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Originally Posted by Huinesoron View Post
Exciting! Do you know if they keep all the song lyrics the same?
In the ones I've watched (2020 play, garden play, 2019 fanfic play) they kept all the lyrics except for one spot, I forget where though, where in a ballad to someone they switched the speaker and the one spoken to for one of the lines, I wasn't sure of the rationale, but it wasn't anything game-changing. The fanfic play has some unique songs, and I am pretty sure they quoted some of the free text directly from the source material. Oh, and the garden play ends with Melian eloping with Sauron (or possibly Morgoth?).

"Everyone dies
... But the story doesn't end there!"

MELIAN:
In reality everything was different.
Thingol, my husband, was quite the blockhead.
I have long been bored of our Elvish forest.
I want to taste the wonders of the dark side!

?SAURON:
I have long been bored of the cursed Silmaril.
Life in the citadel of evil is dreary without feminine powers
I could have been enticed by Finrod - [censored for family friendly purposes]
But I would have delighted more in a woman's charms.

MELIAN:
Who is this fair man who stands before me?
Is he not destined to me by my fate?
I suddenly understood: I need only you!
I am ready to be yours, O Dark Lord!

SAURON:
Come to me, and we will live without a care in the world
I will [do some censored things]

BOTH:
Together we will finish this eternal war
We will join the forces of light and dark as one!


"And they lived long and happily ever after."



...Sauron here clearly has some unfulfilled erotic fantasies.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
I've just been watching the 2020 stageplay, which is very pretty, but also very neatly gets rid of That Thingol Moment: it casts the Thingol-Melian duet as taking place during the meeting with Beren (Thingol threatens him with a sword!), and then cuts the duet off hard to segue straight into the Aria.

I'm now wishing desperately that it was possible to move the Quarrel to after the Duel, and have it cut off not by Thingol, but by Luthien. I don't think it's possible without rewriting Cel'n'Cur's opening lines, sadly - they're too obviously talking directly after Finrod leaves.

Also the shift might take the focus away from Team Finrod for two long, with three back-to-back Feanorian numbers. Ah, well.
Yeah, I don't think that's doable without a major re-write of the musical. If Thingol Steals The Mic is taken out completely, Melian needs a different opening for her Aria. If the Aria flows right after their first Duet, is that not too much Thingol-And-Melianing at once? It should be broken up a little. If the quarrel gets moved to a later point - it loses the "right after Finrod left" effect, and still leaves the Aria problem. The other alternative is to change the ending of Quarrel to resolve it in a way where Thingol Doesn't Steal The Mic. And then, somehow at some point, provide another opening for the Aria (theoretically it could go after Dream, but not ideal, because it would break up the sequence of love songs). I don't think it would work in a full musical set-up; I think it only works well for them because they did an abbreviated version.


EDIT: glancing briefly at some of the other stuff you've linked - some of these might be good for musical inspiration and reference. For instance, I overall like Showdown best of all in V2, but there are some with quite good acting, and the 2018 concert has a very musically clear Sauron who will be much easier to copy when the time comes.

Also, I've seen the 2006 outdoor performance before, and I recommend it for the goofs. It's meant for people who already know the play and will get the inside jokes. The actors are having fun with it. Also, it has V1 Finrod where we can see his acting in Truth - though musically I prefer the V1 recording, I am not a fan of the metal version and I think he sings better there.
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Old 09-16-2020, 08:59 AM   #260
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Oh, and the garden play ends with Melian eloping with Sauron (or possibly Morgoth?).
O.O I've gone ahead and added this to Appendix C ("Much Ado About Nargothrond"), because frankly it deserves to be there.

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Yeah, I don't think that's doable without a major re-write of the musical.
I know, I know. The Aria works as a direct follow-on to the Duet if you drop a hard cut right after Thingol name-drops the Silmarils, and go straight to Melian with "Sold your only daughter for a Silmaril" etc, but it means that the play would take two long digressions from Beren and Finrod, which is definitely not workable.

Still, it's nice to imagine a world where Thingol doesn't Steal the Mic.

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EDIT: glancing briefly at some of the other stuff you've linked - some of these might be good for musical inspiration and reference. For instance, I overall like Showdown best of all in V2, but there are some with quite good acting, and the 2018 concert has a very musically clear Sauron who will be much easier to copy when the time comes.
This was my thought too. It might be fun ("fun") to pull together images of all the versions of each character and see which one, or combination of ones, looks best. As I've said before, Amarie is fixed in stone unless I get really bored, but everyone else can be reworked.

I'm currently assembling a list of links at the start of each set of lyrics, so that all the versions are easily findable. Which brings me on to:

I've steadfastly maintained the split from the Libretto between Beren's Coming and Appeal, but I'm not convinced it holds up musically. The 2006 performance has Beren sing exactly the same tune for 'Is this not the wonderous Nargothrond?' and 'I beseech you, lend me your aid, my king'. If you think it's useful to have them separate, cool, but as a non-musician I think they're the same song.

(In contrast, I reckon the four lines that link the Mic Theft to the Aria should stay with the Mic Theft, because they endcap that song. Moving them to the Aria means letting Thingol's actions go unchallenged in the song itself.)

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Also, I've seen the 2006 outdoor performance before, and I recommend it for the goofs. It's meant for people who already know the play and will get the inside jokes. The actors are having fun with it. Also, it has V1 Finrod where we can see his acting in Truth - though musically I prefer the V1 recording, I am not a fan of the metal version and I think he sings better there.
I remember! I went back and used your collection of versions before I went hunting myself.

hS
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Old 09-16-2020, 01:06 PM   #261
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O.O I've gone ahead and added this to Appendix C ("Much Ado About Nargothrond"), because frankly it deserves to be there.
Does that mean we need a rhyming translation?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
Still, it's nice to imagine a world where Thingol doesn't Steal the Mic.
Yeah... If only so much of the play didn't hang on that moment...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
"fun"
I totally get that. After I finished Wind, I had this thought that as I am probably getting better at this accompaniment stuff, after I work through all the pieces (ha!) it would be "fun" to do a Take 2 of the Duel. Then better sense took over, I listened to the Duel again and decided it sounds perfectly fine, and incautious thoughts like these should not be allowed to fly around so freely.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
I've steadfastly maintained the split from the Libretto between Beren's Coming and Appeal, but I'm not convinced it holds up musically. The 2006 performance has Beren sing exactly the same tune for 'Is this not the wonderous Nargothrond?' and 'I beseech you, lend me your aid, my king'. If you think it's useful to have them separate, cool, but as a non-musician I think they're the same song.
I was very surprised to see them as different songs in the Libretto. I thought they were the same song, and translated them thinking it's the same song. Beren's melody is exactly the same (and the Elves I believe match Finrod's ABAB in the Duel). I do not think it's useful to keep them separate at all. For the text it doesn't matter, but for the singing they should definitely be together.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
(In contrast, I reckon the four lines that link the Mic Theft to the Aria should stay with the Mic Theft, because they endcap that song. Moving them to the Aria means letting Thingol's actions go unchallenged in the song itself.)
This is one of those instances where I'm not sure how many "sections" or "numbers" there truly are hidden in those two songs. It sounds like 4 (Quarrel, Mic Theft, Melian's 4 lines, Aria), but it also flows all together as one. It feels wrong to fully separate Melian's part, but I also get what you're saying. I wonder if this can be done as a combined piece to even avoid that question for video purposes.

The other place where I get this feeling of "this is a single long evolving piece" is with Bloodzining/Hate. I hear it as 4 sections that are all inseparably connected: the Zoning, the "she's mad / I'm mad", Hate, and What Madness Have I Done. In my mind this part also just flows together directly, but it's easier to separate than the Aria is.


EDIT: An update on where Captivity stands - I experimented with the choir sections and edited them to my liking. The music is now ready. It's the same length and speed, just minor details changed. I am waiting for a non-hoarse-after-work day to do a proper recording though, and I am waiting for Elanor to send me her part as well.
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Old 09-16-2020, 07:45 PM   #262
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Does that mean we need a rhyming translation?
Said - done. ^.^
(With a significantly euphemized Sauron, despite which this poem could still find a worthy place in 50 Shades of Gandalf The Grey, the annals of which I believe are kept among other ancient scrolls in the lore-storage of Helsinki.)


MELIAN:
Really, nothing happened thus.
Thingol, my dear king
Was a royal dunce.
I am so fed up with our Elven forest trees.
I wish for a taste now of the Shadow's mysteries!

SAURON:
That accursed Silmaril has bored me near to tears.
Lacking woman's touch, my stronghold's halls are drab and drear. *
Finrod would have been enticing if he weren't so thin,
But delight is greater in the features feminine.

MELIAN:
Who stands now before me, more gorgeous than an Elf?
Is he not predestined for me by fate itself?
I need you alone, of this suddenly I'm sure.
O my Dark Lord dear, I am ready to be yours!

SAURON:
Why don't you come over, and we'll *gaze* the night away.
"Palantir and chill" - is that the phrase that Men now say?

BOTH:
Two of us together can make all this war undone:
Force of light and darkness, united into one!





* I am confused by this stanza, because "my Silmaril" and "Citadel of Evil" sound more like Morgoth, but on the flip side Silmaril is singular and Finrod never faced Morgoth. I am not sure which of the evil dudes Melian is eloping with. I figured it's probably still Sauron, so I changed it up a bit to match.

Doing this, I realized that I am building jokes on a song that is meant to reference and parody a musical that is based on half a chapter of a somewhat obscure book that most people haven't heard of, and deliberately making references to the translation of the musical that barely anyone even knows about. Just the level of involvement required to actually get here is...

But it was enormously fun to write. I loved playing the contrast of "high" phrases and slang phrases. ^.^


EDIT: Just watched the open air 2010 performance. It's only segments of the concert, performed by 3 vocalists. It is kinda weird to see Sauron do Beren's parts (though he changes his jacket to indicate the role swap). Finrod sings quite well. Unfortunately they still seem to be experimenting with siiiingiiiing reeeeaaaallyyy sloooowlyyyy, which kinda ruins the Duel as it loses momentum. But I liked Truth. They do some lyric changes in Dream, in Luthien's part*. They also have Luthien begin the final stanza (Let the wind rage...); other performances have Beren take the lead; that's something we can ponder when we get to that song. I guess the same applies to that stanza in the Showdown.

The guy whose youtube channel the video is on - it's the guy who plays Sauron, and from what I understand is also the musical's producer. He also has the 2007 concert clips, but you probably knew that already.


* Let heart rather than duty decide all. Let my path lie over abyss. The threads of previous [?can't hear] [...something about immortality... something something] My soul belongs to you (in echo of "what is and has been mine", except it's "yours").
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Old 09-17-2020, 02:03 PM   #263
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Sooo... I was thinking, Captivity is hanging a bit in the air now waiting for the vocals, but here is what I am 99% sure is the final (oooh, dangerous word) version of the music. When I have the Elven parts recorded, I can try to overlap them to the music and send you the Audacity file, maybe, to avoid sending you so many voice recordings - but whatever works best, just let me know.

In the meantime, we're back to "you pick!" I feel pretty good about pretty much any song right now, except maybe I would save Epilogue for later. I might dabble a bit in the non-Zong music during this pause too.

(The song after next will probably be more limited, because that will be nearing exam time again)
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Old 09-18-2020, 09:53 AM   #264
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Does that mean we need a rhyming translation?
^_^ ^_^ I am transfering The Euphemisms of Sauron to the Appendices now.

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Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
I totally get that. After I finished Wind, I had this thought that as I am probably getting better at this accompaniment stuff, after I work through all the pieces (ha!) it would be "fun" to do a Take 2 of the Duel.
I have not - yet - searched for "free video editing software", but it's coming. Partially because I want to do 'Truth' as a slow-motion flyover of the landscape from the Lament, flying right into the sunset, but absolutely cannot do that with the tools I have.

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Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
This is one of those instances where I'm not sure how many "sections" or "numbers" there truly are hidden in those two songs. [&c]
My ultimate goal is to put the whole thing together as a single video, so in the end it won't matter overmuch, but... yeah. A lot of those songs flow right into each other, which is good for a musical, but bad for splitting them... I'm inclined to follow the Official Libretto for the most part, but the Coming to Nargothrond was just so short!

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Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
* I am confused by this stanza, because "my Silmaril" and "Citadel of Evil" sound more like Morgoth, but on the flip side Silmaril is singular and Finrod never faced Morgoth. I am not sure which of the evil dudes Melian is eloping with. I figured it's probably still Sauron, so I changed it up a bit to match.
Oh, it's got to be Sauron. I'm actually wondering if the Zongplex as a whole doesn't simply merge the two Dark Lords into one - there's nothing I can see in the lyrics to indicate there's more than one Enemy or Fortress unless you already know it!

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Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
Doing this, I realized that I am building jokes on a song that is meant to reference and parody a musical that is based on half a chapter of a somewhat obscure book that most people haven't heard of, and deliberately making references to the translation of the musical that barely anyone even knows about. Just the level of involvement required to actually get here is...
And it's glorious.

(At some point we'll want to talk about how much 'publicity' we want to give the translation. We could probably reach a fair audience by comment-bombing all the Zong videos on Youtube if we wanted to.)

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Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
Sooo... I was thinking, Captivity is hanging a bit in the air now waiting for the vocals, but here is what I am 99% sure is the final (oooh, dangerous word) version of the music. When I have the Elven parts recorded, I can try to overlap them to the music and send you the Audacity file, maybe, to avoid sending you so many voice recordings - but whatever works best, just let me know.
Eeeeexcellent. Um, if you can easily sort out Audacity that would be lovely, but if not I can do it myself no problem. (Do we have a Beren yet, or am I putting on an accent again? I'd probably go for somewhere in Yorkshire, which I at least have a family claim on, rather than plagiarising the Scots.)

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Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
In the meantime, we're back to "you pick!" I feel pretty good about pretty much any song right now, except maybe I would save Epilogue for later. I might dabble a bit in the non-Zong music during this pause too.
Oh heck. So the easiest song for me to draw would be the Ballad to Amarie, because I already have all the pieces, but it's probably better to save that (I'm likely to have less time as the year goes on). It might be nice to give the Feanorions or Luthien something to do, though equally I haven't drawn the Brothers and want to redo Luthien. I mean, there's the Oath - or we could jump sideways to the Prison Duet, though that runs us back into the question of Beren.

I don't know. I don't think Celebestel has much time to do Heart right now, and I'd rather save Truth until I can do the animation justice, but other than that I'm happy to work with anything.

~~~

Still no images for Captivity, but! I've upgraded the video for the Lament to include NuFinrod and the rebalanced audio. The new link is here.

hS
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Old 09-18-2020, 04:33 PM   #265
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Originally Posted by Huinesoron View Post
I have not - yet - searched for "free video editing software", but it's coming. Partially because I want to do 'Truth' as a slow-motion flyover of the landscape from the Lament, flying right into the sunset, but absolutely cannot do that with the tools I have.
I just realized when we were reassessing Wind that since Truth happens during the westwards journey, the golden dust that's shining on the heights is very literally Finrod approaching Valinor - but also confirming that it will yet stand as it once was, right will triumph over wrong (to echo his lines about gold and ships in Prison Duet, which sound like he's questioning if anything he believed was right). That tempts me to say "Sky ships are burning in the sunset light" is referring to Earendil, although that's only one ship. As for the "fire that shines brighter e'en than they" - I vote for the truth Finrod focuses on: the "holy fires blazing in the eyes", a reflection almost of the Flame Imperishable itself.

Speaking of Truth - I found a copy of the Athrabeth and was skimming it, and saw that Finrod actually uses the words "heirs" and "inheritance" with regards to mortals. Isn't that what you had in the first draft - of Secondborn inheritors? I did not realize at the time this was a Finrodism, or Tolkienism. It doesn't sound as smooth (it would have to go as "inher'tors"). But if this was an intentional reference, maybe it can be worked back in - though I almost have more hope for "heirs" than "inheritors" in terms of how the word structure fits the scansion.



On the topic of lyrics, I did another sing through after watching the different performances, and the fiddling (TM) came out again.

- Any who stand in our way will be cast at our side to the dark we court! --> And any...? (I guess we'll see what ends up being more comfortable to sing)

- Waves of the Sea --> Waves of the Great Sea? (Ideally Wind of the West would have an extra beat too, but if not, neither one is critical)

- One by one, the oath-bound warriors fall --> ALL the oath-bound? It sounds a touch better with the extra beat, but I don't think ALL is appropriate (cause technically none yet and in the Zongverse only 4-5 of the brothers).

- That my heart lies cold by the way --> ON the way?

- I leave a beggar, as when I came here --> AND I leave a beggar?

- I know exactly how to make this good / If you bring my daughter back at once -- I was thinking for a while if there's a better way to rhyme this. I would suggest "surely" instead of "exactly" for scansion purposes, but not sure I can offer anything for the rhyme. There is "I know surely how to fix this fuss / once", but it also has to rhyme with "push", so I got stuck there.

- Can turn our lives from shadowed journey -- a question of intended meanings: would Melian be more likely to say "can turn our lives" or "will turn/save/shield your realm"?

- And fate does not know grace or mercy! -- even more of an aesthetics question: "And fate knows neither grace nor mercy"?

- And I will fight for that which always has been mine! --> is the "always have been" out of place here a bit, without the present tense "is" variant? Is it better rephrased? And I will fight for that which is and has been mine?

- For the Oath's sake I forsook my own home, braving the Sea and bitter Cold -- currently has an emphasis on "THE sea". Another Great Sea? Or leave it as is?

- Is he leading an army to Land of Woe? -- a force can be 10 people. But what about a host? Though considering that Luthien uses Land of Woe again without a preposition just a couple lines down, maybe it's best to keep the pattern.

- Then I will kiss the ground where he lies still... --> On this one, I always have to remind myself which meaning of "still" it's supposed to be. Also, in an ideal world it would rhyme with "wolves". How do you feel about something like "where he last stood" as an alternative?

- Your throne will crumble into ash -- another weak alternative for rhyme: Into the dust your throne will sink...... meh. I am near ready to give up on this one.

- And in the dust the gold did shine! -- is this enough of a parallel to "golden dust is shining in the heights"? Or would it be better if "heights" was on there as well? But then either "dust" or "gold" has to go, I can't find a way to fit all 3 nouns into this phrase.

- But, life entrusted to fate's hand --> life surrendered? A touch stronger, perhaps

- More mute than stones - only the dead -- I realized later that the Russian word can mean either "mute" or "numb". My first instinct was "mute": not only are they trying to be mute as stones in the face of Sauron's questioning, but it also echoes the symbolism of their imminent deaths as songs ending and last horn call dying etc. But "numb" can also work, they probably wish they would be numb as stones as well. Do you feel strongly about either interpretation?

- But mysterious still --> scans and rhymes a bit awkwardly. How about "But greatest/strangest of all lore"?

- Light and dark can both be damned! -- if you really want the abyss reference, there's "Abyss may swallow light and dark". Or "abyss may take both light and dark". But so far I got nothing that would be a good equivalent of "both light and dark can be damned and devoured by the abyss for all I care".


Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
My ultimate goal is to put the whole thing together as a single video, so in the end it won't matter overmuch, but... yeah. A lot of those songs flow right into each other, which is good for a musical, but bad for splitting them... I'm inclined to follow the Official Libretto for the most part, but the Coming to Nargothrond was just so short!
Agree. I see no good reason why the Coming is split from the rest of Nargothrond. I mean, we technically could, but it would be more and not less work to do so, and for no good reason.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
Oh, it's got to be Sauron. I'm actually wondering if the Zongplex as a whole doesn't simply merge the two Dark Lords into one - there's nothing I can see in the lyrics to indicate there's more than one Enemy or Fortress unless you already know it!
Well... They do have a certain code of what things they reference directly, and obliquely, and none at all. They never say Morgoth's name. But by the same token, they also never speak Luthien's name. We broke both of these rules. But about the Dark Lords - yeah, unless you know that there are two of them which are being referred to, it would be hard. Except for little things, like "greater is the guilt of he who in the dark etc" (as opposed to "it was YOUR fault"). Or the fact that the Silmarils are still in an iron and not bat-like crown somewhere and still in need of rescuing. I guess some of Morgoth does end up rubbing off on Sauron in the Zong, as he takes over the role of the main villain...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
(At some point we'll want to talk about how much 'publicity' we want to give the translation. We could probably reach a fair audience by comment-bombing all the Zong videos on Youtube if we wanted to.)
Elanor keeps telling me what we could do for a PR campaign, and I keep telling her that I'm the wrong person to do it. But she could readily do the publicity thing in the Russian-speaking world at least and somewhat in the English when the light turns green.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
Eeeeexcellent. Um, if you can easily sort out Audacity that would be lovely, but if not I can do it myself no problem. (Do we have a Beren yet, or am I putting on an accent again? I'd probably go for somewhere in Yorkshire, which I at least have a family claim on, rather than plagiarising the Scots.)
I have a list of people I can maybe peer pressure into doing this. I have high hopes for Captivity, cause it's only two lines. Surely one of them will agree. The other Finrod/Beren duets might be trickier. But bottom line, Beren can have a girly voice for those until we find a substitute.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
Oh heck. So the easiest song for me to draw would be the Ballad to Amarie, because I already have all the pieces, but it's probably better to save that (I'm likely to have less time as the year goes on). It might be nice to give the Feanorions or Luthien something to do, though equally I haven't drawn the Brothers and want to redo Luthien. I mean, there's the Oath - or we could jump sideways to the Prison Duet, though that runs us back into the question of Beren.
I am looking forwards to both Ballad and Truth - but I agree that they are probably best left for later, when there is less and more time respectively.

In terms of the "currently singable" Luthien/Feanorian songs, there is Meeting (if you sing Beren), Dream (ditto), Bloodzoning (I believe the bros take turns responding to Luthien), and Showdown. Oath has the Bros dueting, but that can be fixed by recording twice if we don't find someome to join in. Quarrel and Hate also have Thingol, which makes it more difficult.

Hate is my favourite of the Feanorian songs, but 1) We don't have the voices for that (yet), and 2) It would make more sense to do the Bloodzoning first, because Hate transitions right out of it.

Maybe the Bloodzoning? That gives an opening for all three of them without going beyond our current vocal capabilities.

If it's too much to draw all three at once, maybe Oath - and we'll figure out a recording once we get there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
Still no images for Captivity, but! I've upgraded the video for the Lament to include NuFinrod and the rebalanced audio. The new link is here.
Yay! Updated. I like NuFinrod's eyes - that look like he's contemplating something deep, but you can't quite tell what.
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Old 09-19-2020, 11:06 AM   #266
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Aaaaand we have a Beren! ...at least for now. Legate said he'll work on the recording next week.


I have translated another song (I know ) from the extra stuff the performances add on. It's the spell song from the fanfic-based 2019 play. I like is as a stand-alone song. It's not as impressive as the Zong was in depicting Finrod, or Sil events, or even the fanfic it's based on - and I can't say it's an impressive translation either. But taken by itself it has a nice ring to it.


We now stand on the boundary, on Sauronís border.
Itís becoming more doubtful that we walk unnoticed.
Here the nature itself follows his evil order,
And itís nearly impossible to stay unaltered.

Unless we, like a garb, wear a guise without defect -
Take the shapes of these demons, their horrid appearance -
Weíll be stopped, weíll be waylaid, there will be a pretext,
And this dirt and this gear will not make any difference.
(All this raggedy gear will not make any difference)
Make a circle Ďround the flames!
Let the smoke around you fold!
You wonít know me, now Iím changed:
Everything that once was gold
Now is blackened! See the leer
Of the midnight mocking moon,
And the silence spills a tear,
And your fear caresses youÖ
If you now allow yourself to become beastly
So to blend with the beasts of the enemyís vile bands,
Having hidden the tracks, and believing nearly
In the chance that we might pass unseen through this land,

If the wolves miss the scent of our blood and our strained breath,
If weíre taken for Sauronís troops at the border -
Then I have hope that we do not walk toward vain death
And that you, Mortal, will live unharmed through this horror.
(And that you, Mortal, will live unharmed through this horror)
Make a circle Ďround the flames!
Let the smoke around you fold!
You wonít know me, now Iím changed:
Everything that once was gold
Now is blackened! See the leer
Of the midnight mocking moon,
And the silence spills a tear,
And your fear caresses youÖ
Road, escort me through doubt, through dread
From the threshold of my homestead,
Through the gloom of tangled forests to the edge my feet convey

From which there is no returning.
Anguish, sorrow, partings, mourning -
Road, please lose them in the dust, but keep the imprints of my trail!

Of your still uncertain meaning
I knew not in the beginning.
Road, escort me to the darkened halls where night rules over day!

Show me if the light will vanish
For this song is left unfinished
Road, instruct me in the wisdom which you only can relay!
(Which you only can relay!)


(The final stanza seems to be in Elvish, and here your guess at the meaning is as good as mine and probably better. I think there's a hyarmenta in there, but otherwise have no idea what he's saying).



By the way, you were totally right that this is a horse show group. They advertise themselves as a combination of horse + theatre club thing. By the sound of it they've already worked on a couple of Tolkien productions (names like Weathertop and Mirkwood come up in their past titles), and are currently working on staging this fanfic in full. They have some cool photos which might be useful for inspiration hunting: gallery and the Lay adaptation, and instagram. It seems like the play in the video is set by their "trainees", while the photos are more of the "experts". Of the trainees, my favourite look/acting is probably Celegorm (though Curufin's "whatever brother, fine, I'll roll along with it" is also very deserving).
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Old 09-20-2020, 02:13 AM   #267
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Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
I just realized when we were reassessing Wind that since Truth happens during the westwards journey, the golden dust that's shining on the heights is very literally Finrod approaching Valinor
So it's the same as the diamond dust that covered Earendil?

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Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
That tempts me to say "Sky ships are burning in the sunset light" is referring to Earendil, although that's only one ship. As for the "fire that shines brighter e'en than they" - I vote for the truth Finrod focuses on: the "holy fires blazing in the eyes", a reflection almost of the Flame Imperishable itself.
I like this interpretation!

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Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
Speaking of Truth - I found a copy of the Athrabeth and was skimming it, and saw that Finrod actually uses the words "heirs" and "inheritance" with regards to mortals. Isn't that what you had in the first draft - of Secondborn inheritors? I did not realize at the time this was a Finrodism, or Tolkienism. It doesn't sound as smooth (it would have to go as "inher'tors"). But if this was an intentional reference, maybe it can be worked back in - though I almost have more hope for "heirs" than "inheritors" in terms of how the word structure fits the scansion.
It's okay, I didn't realise either. ^_^ I think it does scan - I've just sung it through as 'in-HEEER-it'rs, which is how I'd naturally sing it anyway - but we'll see how it fits when we get that far I guess?

The line that really threw me was the golden dust one, actually - it seemed to fall as "THE gol-den DUST is SHI-ning", which sounds weird. I'll have a poke at it sometime.

Now, the Lyric Party!

Any who stand in our way will be cast at our side to the dark we court! --> And any...?

Happy to put it in, but I think I was using that beat to draw breath!

Waves of the Sea --> Waves of the Great Sea?

Sure; and how about 'Breath of the West Wind'?

One by one, the oath-bound warriors fall --> ALL the oath-bound?

I actually want "seven oath-bound"; I was never happy to drop the 'seven' from the next line. And I think it parses: "one by one, the seven fell, until only two remained".

That my heart lies cold by the way --> ON the way?

By = beside, as in 'abandoned by the side of the road'.

I leave a beggar, as when I came here --> AND I leave a beggar?

Sure

I know exactly how to make this good / If you bring my daughter back at once

How about:

I know a perfect way to fix this up
If you bring my daughter back at once
I will promise her in marriage
To whoever gives Beren the shove.


Depends a little on how you pronounce 'once' (wunse or wonse).

Can turn our lives from shadowed journey

I'll put in 'shield your realm' here for now, but I'm not positive it fits with 'journey'.

And fate does not know grace or mercy! > And fate knows neither grace nor mercy?

Yes!

And I will fight for that which always has been mine! --> And I will fight for that which is and has been mine?

Um. I've tried to avoid 'has been', because I don't think it says as much. This line could scan as To fight for that which is and always has been mine, but that takes away the declarative statement.

For the Oath's sake I forsook my own home, braving the Sea and bitter Cold

"Braved the Great Sea".

Is he leading an army to Land of Woe? -- a force can be 10 people. But what about a host? Though considering that Luthien uses Land of Woe again without a preposition just a couple lines down, maybe it's best to keep the pattern.

Actually I think I like 'host'.

Then I will kiss the ground where he lies still... --> On this one, I always have to remind myself which meaning of "still" it's supposed to be.

Well, that might be intentional ('he's still there' and 'he's not moving' both make sense!), but point taken on the rhyme. I think I thought it rhymed with still/fell. where he once stood.

Your throne will crumble into ash -- another weak alternative for rhyme: Into the dust your throne will sink...

Is it meant to rhyme with 'king'? I'm toying with something about swords ringing, but it might run a bit far afield.

And in the dust the gold did shine! -- is this enough of a parallel to "golden dust is shining in the heights"? Or would it be better if "heights" was on there as well? But then either "dust" or "gold" has to go, I can't find a way to fit all 3 nouns into this phrase.

If we're definitely linking this to Tirion and Earendil, something like 'In diamond dust the gold did shine' might work. But I think it draws the link as is.

But, life entrusted to fate's hand --> life surrendered?

Yus.

More mute than stones - only the dead -- I realized later that the Russian word can mean either "mute" or "numb". My first instinct was "mute": not only are they trying to be mute as stones in the face of Sauron's questioning, but it also echoes the symbolism of their imminent deaths as songs ending and last horn call dying etc.

I think 'mute'. Stones talking is a Tolkienism ("Deep they delved us, high they builded us"), while stones feeling is a Simon&Garfunkelism.

But mysterious still --> scans and rhymes a bit awkwardly. How about "But greatest/strangest of all lore"?

"But greater than my lore". With the added bonus that in my accent, that could also be "my Law", and it was Beren's appeal that caused Finrod to set aside his rule.

Light and dark can both be damned! -- if you really want the abyss reference, there's "Abyss may swallow light and dark".

It would be "To the Abyss with Light and Dark", but I really like this line as is, so unless you feel very strongly I'd like to keep it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
Well... They do have a certain code of what things they reference directly, and obliquely, and none at all. They never say Morgoth's name. But by the same token, they also never speak Luthien's name. We broke both of these rules.
They don't name Luthien?! Good grief... I mean, we could go back and rework these parts if need be. 'Morgoth' appears only four times, after all, and the only 'Luthien' is when we quoted Tolkien rather than translating.

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Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
Elanor keeps telling me what we could do for a PR campaign, and I keep telling her that I'm the wrong person to do it. But she could readily do the publicity thing in the Russian-speaking world at least and somewhat in the English when the light turns green.
It's worth keeping in mind, at any rate.

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Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
Hate is my favourite of the Feanorian songs, but 1) We don't have the voices for that (yet), and 2) It would make more sense to do the Bloodzoning first, because Hate transitions right out of it.

Maybe the Bloodzoning? That gives an opening for all three of them without going beyond our current vocal capabilities.
Hate wouldn't actually be too hard; the brothers sing practically all of it as a duet, so I don't need to worry too much about differentiating their voices. But I'm happy to do either of these.

Drawing for "Captivity" continues (I have the Faithful now), but while I'm here, these are my original Beren and Luthien:



Luthien is V1 Luthien wearing V2 Galadriel's dress, while Beren is just V1 Beren with canon-corrected hair.

I've not seen any particularly great Berens - they all seem to parse him as a Barbarian Hero - but there's a lot of Luthien variety. Do you have any suggestions as to which would look best?

EDIT: Yeah, pretty sure that last stanza is Quenya, but sung so fast I can't parse it. I'm hearing Vilya [something], Vilya Calma at the beginning, which would mean he's evoking the Sun and Moon ("Vilya calma" is literally "sky lamp").

hS

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Old 09-20-2020, 05:52 AM   #268
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After a busy morning's work, I have a completed draft video for Captivity!

I feel ill at ease about that purported minstrel...

(Obviously featuring me as Beren again)

I would appreciate any notes on the volume balance, because I think it wanders badly. Also any points where I've wandered off-key. Also, this is only 20 slides, so is nice and easy to update at need.

I was also thinking about the lyrics while uploading it... how would you feel about switching Finrod to singing The price I pay, my honour to retain? I don't think it changes the meaning any, just cleans it up a little.

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Old 09-20-2020, 09:52 AM   #269
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First things first -


Quote:
Originally Posted by Huinesoron View Post
After a busy morning's work, I have a completed draft video for Captivity!

I feel ill at ease about that purported minstrel...
Yessssss!!! I love it! It's so good! I watched it several times now. The whole thing is flipping fantastic. It made me really happy. I love the Faithful, and how they disappear one by one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
I would appreciate any notes on the volume balance, because I think it wanders badly. Also any points where I've wandered off-key. Also, this is only 20 slides, so is nice and easy to update at need.
I like the volume. Whatever it does, it makes sense with the music, which also gets louder and quieter.

I think the only off-key place that really needs a second take is Finrod's "I've been a proud king" section, because it's several notes on a prominent stretch of melody. Possibly Sauron's "I feel ill at ease --> fell", which has a couple of spots. Otherwise, nothing major. I like both your Finrod and your Sauron.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
I was also thinking about the lyrics while uploading it... how would you feel about switching Finrod to singing The price I pay, my honour to retain? I don't think it changes the meaning any, just cleans it up a little.
Sure!

A question - how easy would it be to insert/replace the vocals? And in what format (ie do you want me to send the Audacity again, or mp3s?)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Huinesoron View Post
So it's the same as the diamond dust that covered Earendil?
Uhh, I am not sure. But is there anything else that he can be talking of (except the more metaphorical "I see goodness and hope in life again")? In Russian, there are no heights, not for him or for Melian, and at that point in time I wasn't sure what Finrod was referencing, again aside from the metaphorical seeing hope and beauty in life again. But once we've added the heights, that gave an extra detail with potential for an additional interpretation. Could he be talking about Valinor?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
It's okay, I didn't realise either. ^_^ I think it does scan - I've just sung it through as 'in-HEEER-it'rs, which is how I'd naturally sing it anyway - but we'll see how it fits when we get that far I guess?

The line that really threw me was the golden dust one, actually - it seemed to fall as "THE gol-den DUST is SHI-ning", which sounds weird. I'll have a poke at it sometime.
Okay, inheritors it is for now... hopefully still rhyming with "ever" and not sticking out too awkwardly.

I like the golden heights line, it's one of my favourites in that song! I read it as "a GOL-den DUST is SHI-ning", which is how I would say it if I was just talking normally. Maybe when I attempt to synch the choir today, I will record this snippet as well to see how it sounds.


Now, the Lyric Party - Again!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
Any who stand in our way will be cast at our side to the dark we court! --> And any...?
Whatever you prefer, whatever sings best. I don't feel too strongly about this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
Waves of the Sea --> Waves of the Great Sea?
Sure; and how about 'Breath of the West Wind'?
---
One by one, the oath-bound warriors fall --> ALL the oath-bound?
I actually want "seven oath-bound"; I was never happy to drop the 'seven' from the next line. And I think it parses: "one by one, the seven fell, until only two remained".
--
For the Oath's sake I forsook my own home, braving the Sea and bitter Cold
"Braved the Great Sea".
---
But mysterious still --> scans and rhymes a bit awkwardly. How about "But greatest/strangest of all lore"?
"But greater than my lore". With the added bonus that in my accent, that could also be "my Law", and it was Beren's appeal that caused Finrod to set aside his rule.
Yeeees! Except "West" makes a better rhyme with "Witness". But I think it still works with "Wind".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
I know exactly how to make this good / If you bring my daughter back at once

How about:

I know a perfect way to fix this up
If you bring my daughter back at once
I will promise her in marriage
To whoever gives Beren the shove.
I like the rhyme! The first line is still one syllable over, but it can scan. I'm putting it in for now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
Can turn our lives from shadowed journey
I'll put in 'shield your realm' here for now, but I'm not positive it fits with 'journey'.
Good point. I will think about it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
And I will fight for that which always has been mine! --> And I will fight for that which is and has been mine?

Um. I've tried to avoid 'has been', because I don't think it says as much. This line could scan as To fight for that which is and always has been mine, but that takes away the declarative statement.
That kind of makes it sound like Luthien only awoke to fight, as opposed to awakening and finding something that she is willing to fight for. How about flipping tenses the other way, then? "And I will fight for that which always will be mine"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
Then I will kiss the ground where he lies still... --> On this one, I always have to remind myself which meaning of "still" it's supposed to be.

Well, that might be intentional ('he's still there' and 'he's not moving' both make sense!), but point taken on the rhyme. I think I thought it rhymed with still/fell. where he once stood.
But he's not still there, or lying undisturbed - isn't that the point of Cel/Cur's previous line?

...Ooooh, wait. I've been mixing up the Russian and English lyrics again, they come in a different order. In Russian it's "your friend perished, there are no news of him" - "I want to see the grave in which he lies" - "he must have become carrion-fodder" - "I will kiss the ground where he fell/died". That sequence makes it sound like there is no final resting place for Beren's body, he's been eaten by crows and wolves and whatnot, and not "still" there. And then I read again the English, and realized that the logic of the conversation doesn't match up the same way / in the same order, and... Sorry for the confusion. :-o

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
Your throne will crumble into ash -- another weak alternative for rhyme: Into the dust your throne will sink...

Is it meant to rhyme with 'king'? I'm toying with something about swords ringing, but it might run a bit far afield.
It's supposed to rhyme with "King", but not at the price of sacrificing the power of that line. And you already had "ring" for Thingol's stanza. :-( I am not too set on fixing this one, to be honest - just fiddling around with it to see if we've exhausted the options.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
And in the dust the gold did shine! -- is this enough of a parallel to "golden dust is shining in the heights"? Or would it be better if "heights" was on there as well? But then either "dust" or "gold" has to go, I can't find a way to fit all 3 nouns into this phrase.

If we're definitely linking this to Tirion and Earendil, something like 'In diamond dust the gold did shine' might work. But I think it draws the link as is.
Yeah, I am not sure to what extent Valinor is present in this instance, as opposed to the broader meaning. In any case, I would argue that here "dust" is really meant to be plain dust, in which the precious material shines. I think I would leave it as is, unless we're inserting diamonds into the other place as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
Light and dark can both be damned! -- if you really want the abyss reference, there's "Abyss may swallow light and dark".

It would be "To the Abyss with Light and Dark", but I really like this line as is, so unless you feel very strongly I'd like to keep it.
Nah, keep it. Again, just fiddling around with it for fiddling sake.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
They don't name Luthien?! Good grief... I mean, we could go back and rework these parts if need be. 'Morgoth' appears only four times, after all, and the only 'Luthien' is when we quoted Tolkien rather than translating.
They name her in the credits. But I can't think of a single instance when her name appears in the lyrics - and yes, the only time we break that rule is with a direct Tolkien quote, and I don't think we need to alter it. She is referred to as "Daughter of Thingol" by CelnCur, so Thingol's name gets said but hers doesn't. I have a hypothesis that this may be an artificially set rule by the authors, because Luthien's name sounds a bit awkward in Russian and there are several different versions in the translations. The best-sounding one, IMHO, is the least like the original. But they still picked one of the names for the credits, so maybe this is not the actual reason. In general, I feel like they try to include as few names as possible, and get around this with oblique references.

But back to the question - personally I don't feel that we need to take out Morgoth's mentions, or Angband's mentions, or any of the other extra names we put there that weren't present in the original. I think that it's worth distinguishing that Finrod's story is separate from Beren&Luthien's story, and that there are things outside of it that will continue to exist unresolved. B&L still need to continue their tale: get the Silmaril, face the mightiest of all (twice, with different meanings). I don't think it's wrong in this context to reference their future story without imposing it on the present story, which is Finrod-focused after all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
Hate wouldn't actually be too hard; the brothers sing practically all of it as a duet, so I don't need to worry too much about differentiating their voices. But I'm happy to do either of these.
I've sketched Oath and part of Bloodzoning. I think Oath will come first after all. It can also be sung as either a duet or alternating brothers in places. If you want I can start the recruitment for another Feanorian voice too?...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
...wearing V2 Galadriel's dress
:-D

(You know, I have nothing against Luthien wearing whatever dress she wants, but when Galadriel is cosplaying Luthien it's just poor planning on the costume design. She could have worn any other colour, and had flowers other than niphredil in her hair, and - oh, whatever.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
I've not seen any particularly great Berens - they all seem to parse him as a Barbarian Hero - but there's a lot of Luthien variety. Do you have any suggestions as to which would look best?
For Beren, yeah - a lot of the plays seem to dress him up as a bandit or something. But some (V1 included) go for the romantic knight figure. By the way, what is his canonical hair colour supposed to be? I can't remember. Actually, speaking of romantic knights, the current Beren reminds me a little of this Ivanhoe. I'll take a look through the Luthiens again, and see if there are any really good ones visually. With my remember-only-what-was-recently-watched bias, I can only recommend a Celegorm and Galadriel (if you ever consider doing a second one... She looks her part and also has an interesting musical interpretation of the Epilogue, I might listen to this again when we get there).



... Captivity is looking so good! ^.^ I just rewatched it again, and again.
By the way - what do the runes on Sauron's throne say?
Also, I might have assumed you know what I'm talking about when you might not, so to clarify just in case - Legate is our Legate. Legate of Amon Lanc.
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Old 09-20-2020, 12:32 PM   #270
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Update -

Just sent you the Audacity file with the old recordings swapped for new ones were needed.

And, because I was in a Finrod mood, here is a musicless (and hence not entirely on-tune and evenly-paced) Truth to see how it sounds.
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Old 09-21-2020, 01:54 AM   #271
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Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
Yessssss!!! I love it! It's so good! I watched it several times now. The whole thing is flipping fantastic. It made me really happy. I love the Faithful, and how they disappear one by one.
^_^ And don't worry, the last one to go is saved as Edrahil in my files.

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Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
I like the volume. Whatever it does, it makes sense with the music, which also gets louder and quieter.

I think the only off-key place that really needs a second take is Finrod's "I've been a proud king" section, because it's several notes on a prominent stretch of melody. Possibly Sauron's "I feel ill at ease --> fell", which has a couple of spots. Otherwise, nothing major. I like both your Finrod and your Sauron.
Thanks, I'll look at those.

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Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
A question - how easy would it be to insert/replace the vocals? And in what format (ie do you want me to send the Audacity again, or mp3s?)
Really, really easy. I've got everything saved as separate tracks in Audacity, so I can swap them in and out at will; all I need to do is keep the base track the same, and I can drop it into the video in under a minute.

Unfortunately, it turns out the Audacity files really don't transfer well between computers (or rather, they need their _data folders with them, and I'm not even sure that would work). So I think the best way to handle the data is to send me the bare vocal MP3, plus some sort of time-synched version; that can either be an audacity-synched export, or just a recording of how it should sound.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
Uhh, I am not sure. But is there anything else that he can be talking of (except the more metaphorical "I see goodness and hope in life again")? In Russian, there are no heights, not for him or for Melian, and at that point in time I wasn't sure what Finrod was referencing, again aside from the metaphorical seeing hope and beauty in life again. But once we've added the heights, that gave an extra detail with potential for an additional interpretation. Could he be talking about Valinor?
I think he must be. I've just checked, and Tolkien only uses 'dust' in two senses in the Silm: one is Anfauglith (7 times), and the other (3 times) is this:

He walked in the deserted ways of Tirion, and the dust upon his raiment and his shoes was a dust of diamonds, and he shone and glistened as he climbed the long white stairs.

We use it 6 times: metaphorically from Luthien and Finrod, literally and metaphorically from Amarie, and the two Golden Dusts.

I think the 'Truth' version holds up: this is Finrod's vision of the future of the Silmaril, and the coming of the Mariner. The one word I'd like to change is 'cursed', because in this context the Silmarils are a force for good. 'Blessed' sounds too much like an ironic epithet, and 'holy' is over the top... 'hallowed'?

The Prison Duet... so Beren is giving a Beleriand Hunter's view of despair, and I think it'd be nice for Finrod to be specifically talking about Valinor. So let's see:

Sky-ships did wander, cast adrift
Golden dust glittered at my feet


Ships wandered aimless through the sky
Gold in the fallen dust did shine


Untethered sky-ships drift away
Gold shines the dust with fading day


Quote:
Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
I like the golden heights line, it's one of my favourites in that song! I read it as "a GOL-den DUST is SHI-ning", which is how I would say it if I was just talking normally. Maybe when I attempt to synch the choir today, I will record this snippet as well to see how it sounds.
Yeah, I don't know what I was going on about, this is how it scans. ^_^

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
That kind of makes it sound like Luthien only awoke to fight, as opposed to awakening and finding something that she is willing to fight for. How about flipping tenses the other way, then? "And I will fight for that which always will be mine"?
Mmm... yep, that works.

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Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
...Ooooh, wait. I've been mixing up the Russian and English lyrics again, they come in a different order.
'Last stood' works well anyway, so we'll stick with that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
It's supposed to rhyme with "King", but not at the price of sacrificing the power of that line. And you already had "ring" for Thingol's stanza. :-( I am not too set on fixing this one, to be honest - just fiddling around with it to see if we've exhausted the options.
Yeah; it'll be nice if we find something that fits, but for now the crumbling throne remains.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
I've sketched Oath and part of Bloodzoning. I think Oath will come first after all. It can also be sung as either a duet or alternating brothers in places. If you want I can start the recruitment for another Feanorian voice too?...
Cool; I've got an idea for how to background it, and have drawn Curufin (shamelessly copying V2 Curufin's face because he's so perfect). I think alternating is better, because it gives a bit more variety in the visuals, but if that's too tricky to compose then we can duet.

If you can find a second Feanorian that would be awesome, but if necessary I can probably differentiate them. (I'm currently thinking we might do a full re-cast once the whole thing is finished, so we can hand various vocalists the completed Zong and say "karaoke this for me". That's why I've stopped rattling on about the voices, and also why I haven't gone looking for people myself.)

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Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
For Beren, yeah - a lot of the plays seem to dress him up as a bandit or something. But some (V1 included) go for the romantic knight figure. By the way, what is his canonical hair colour supposed to be? I can't remember. Actually, speaking of romantic knights, the current Beren reminds me a little of this Ivanhoe. I'll take a look through the Luthiens again, and see if there are any really good ones visually. With my remember-only-what-was-recently-watched bias, I can only recommend a Celegorm and Galadriel (if you ever consider doing a second one... She looks her part and also has an interesting musical interpretation of the Epilogue, I might listen to this again when we get there).
Yeah, my Beren is just V1 Beren with different hair. Beren has sandy hair, because... well, he's Tolkien. ^_^ Which is canon, I'm not just fanning. I think he works okay in the Captivity video, but there's always room for improvement.

I still think V1 Luthien is adorable, but am happy to change her up. I like that Celegorm, and will pilfer his face.

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Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
... Captivity is looking so good! ^.^ I just rewatched it again, and again.
By the way - what do the runes on Sauron's throne say?
Also, I might have assumed you know what I'm talking about when you might not, so to clarify just in case - Legate is our Legate. Legate of Amon Lanc.
The runes are the names of Sauron: Gorthaur, Sauron, THU. He seems the type, and it made the scene more interesting (also I am a language geek).

I did assume you meant that Legate; it's such an unusual word... has anyone asked if he's a Roman senator or a Catholic messenger? ^_^ I'll squeeze his full title into the credits at some point, I was rushing to get the last slide in.

hS
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Old 09-21-2020, 05:51 AM   #272
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Originally Posted by Huinesoron View Post
Really, really easy. I've got everything saved as separate tracks in Audacity, so I can swap them in and out at will; all I need to do is keep the base track the same, and I can drop it into the video in under a minute.

Unfortunately, it turns out the Audacity files really don't transfer well between computers (or rather, they need their _data folders with them, and I'm not even sure that would work). So I think the best way to handle the data is to send me the bare vocal MP3, plus some sort of time-synched version; that can either be an audacity-synched export, or just a recording of how it should sound.
Gotcha! Um, I will send you the mp3s (or m4as, as my phone insists on recording them) of the new vocals from me later today when I get home, and I guess the mp3 of what it sounds like on my end?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
I think the 'Truth' version holds up: this is Finrod's vision of the future of the Silmaril, and the coming of the Mariner. The one word I'd like to change is 'cursed', because in this context the Silmarils are a force for good. 'Blessed' sounds too much like an ironic epithet, and 'holy' is over the top... 'hallowed'?
Hmm. Trying to balance Tolkien, the Russian, and the English. In the original, it's "the cursed Silmarils are burning in the darkness", so presumably still pre-Earendil. In our context... they are still "far away". In that case, how about something neutral, that can go either direction - fateful?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
The Prison Duet... so Beren is giving a Beleriand Hunter's view of despair, and I think it'd be nice for Finrod to be specifically talking about Valinor. So let's see:

Sky-ships did wander, cast adrift
Golden dust glittered at my feet


Ships wandered aimless through the sky
Gold in the fallen dust did shine


Untethered sky-ships drift away
Gold shines the dust with fading day
I think the question becomes: what ships is he talking about, if they are specific ships? "Ships did wander in the skies" is an affirmative of yes, there were ships like that (like what? Not sure), it all did happen. Ships wandering aimlessly or adrift implies something different, and without having a sense of what he's talking about I am not sure if that holds true.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
Cool; I've got an idea for how to background it, and have drawn Curufin (shamelessly copying V2 Curufin's face because he's so perfect). I think alternating is better, because it gives a bit more variety in the visuals, but if that's too tricky to compose then we can duet.
The music would be the same regardless, I think - there is not much to differentiate them. But the singers can take turns singing. I will go twist some more arms. Where is sally when you need her? She is so good at twisting arms...

I think Luthien is as tricky to draw as she is to sing or act. The most beautiful face and voice in Beleriand is a pretty tall order.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
The runes are the names of Sauron: Gorthaur, Sauron, THU. He seems the type, and it made the scene more interesting (also I am a language geek).
Ha! I can see him be like: you got another nasty nickname for me? I'll graffitti it on my throne. Eat that, you slaves of greater lords!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
I did assume you meant that Legate; it's such an unusual word... has anyone asked if he's a Roman senator or a Catholic messenger? ^_^ I'll squeeze his full title into the credits at some point, I was rushing to get the last slide in.
No one did as far as I know. But I have a tendency to forget that some words have meaning outside the Downs. There is only one Legate, it's a personal name now. Nogrod is a person and not a place. Goombas are an attribute of Hookbills. It's to to the point where it's discombobulating when I see these words in a different context.
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Old 09-21-2020, 07:11 AM   #273
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Gotcha! Um, I will send you the mp3s (or m4as, as my phone insists on recording them) of the new vocals from me later today when I get home, and I guess the mp3 of what it sounds like on my end?
Sounds good to me.

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Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
Hmm. Trying to balance Tolkien, the Russian, and the English. In the original, it's "the cursed Silmarils are burning in the darkness", so presumably still pre-Earendil. In our context... they are still "far away". In that case, how about something neutral, that can go either direction - fateful?
Oh! I didn't realise I stuck that close. Then we should probably keep cursed, which is entirely accurate. I just think it's a bit insulting to them. ^_~ ("Fate-bound" or something would be my choice if it were just me randomly writing lines, but it is not.)

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I think the question becomes: what ships is he talking about, if they are specific ships? "Ships did wander in the skies" is an affirmative of yes, there were ships like that (like what? Not sure), it all did happen. Ships wandering aimlessly or adrift implies something different, and without having a sense of what he's talking about I am not sure if that holds true.
In the literal sense, 'sky-ships' can only mean two things: the Sun and Moon, or Earendil. Or... is there any chance they were aiming for 'winged ships', ie, the swan-ships of the Teleri? I know Amarie specifically evokes their burning, which means when Finrod talks about burning ships in Truth he may mean the same thing.

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I think Luthien is as tricky to draw as she is to sing or act. The most beautiful face and voice in Beleriand is a pretty tall order.
Noooooooo kidding.

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Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
No one did as far as I know. But I have a tendency to forget that some words have meaning outside the Downs. There is only one Legate, it's a personal name now. Nogrod is a person and not a place. Goombas are an attribute of Hookbills. It's to to the point where it's discombobulating when I see these words in a different context.
Oh yeah, Nogrod's a place. I've found myself trying to bold mentions of canon characters from time to time, so I get where you're coming from. ^_^

hS
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Old 09-21-2020, 04:22 PM   #274
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Oh! I didn't realise I stuck that close. Then we should probably keep cursed, which is entirely accurate. I just think it's a bit insulting to them. ^_~ ("Fate-bound" or something would be my choice if it were just me randomly writing lines, but it is not.)
Yeah - it's not exact (they use "stones" rather than "Silmarils", but same difference) - but the "cursed" is a direct translation. HOWEVER. I think depending on the meaning we wish to convey with the stanza as a whole, I don't feel it would be wrong to have fate-bound or fateful or something of that sort. They do use "ill-fated" several times throughout the musical, which we often changed to "cursed" for scansion, so this might be considered payback. I kept trying to insert that word somewhere into the lyrics, but it just kept dropping right back out. So a certain part of me will be quite pleased. A certain part of me though is still wondering where exactly this is heading and how metaphorical vs explicit it is - more to follow below.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
In the literal sense, 'sky-ships' can only mean two things: the Sun and Moon, or Earendil. Or... is there any chance they were aiming for 'winged ships', ie, the swan-ships of the Teleri? I know Amarie specifically evokes their burning, which means when Finrod talks about burning ships in Truth he may mean the same thing.
So, here are a few thoughts. In a very disorganized manner, because I am not even sure where to start.

- They are "ships of the skies". "Wings" are not mentioned, and that would not be my first assumption on hearing the words. However, what the intention of the authors was, I cannot say for certain.
- Feanor's bonfire party was what I originally assumed Finrod was referring to. My first read (/listen) was "vague filler about dust - ship-burning to reference the brother turning on brother theme - Silmarils are cursed, turned from representing the Light to representing Morgoth's darkness and the Fall - but brighter than all of these things burns... whatever Finrod realized upon his death".
- My revisited interpretation features Valinor. But I am still not sure if it's Valinor as it was in Finrod's memory, or will be (when Earendil comes? when the Noldor are forgiven? in Arda Remade?). Or, what I am actually leaning towards, the present Valinor as Finrod's fea approaches it.
- If it's Valinor of the future, then the Ship should probably be Earendil (burning in the sunset only metaphorically), and then the Silmarils should definitely not be cursed but fateful/fate-bound/whatever, because the line of thought is a positive one.
- If it is Valinor of the present, then I still think the theme of the middle lines is dark, matching the dark present Finrod is leaving and contrasting the burning of the ships and stones with the fire that's brighter. It reads more like: I am approaching Valinor, leaving Middle-earth where evil is strong - but now I am sure, and not just hopeful, that there is something stronger still, and evil won't last. In this case, I would say that either cursed or fate-something would still apply, they both have sufficient gloom, so both options are still on the table.
- But this doesn't help me figure out what memory Finrod is trying to affirm in Prison! What is his "this once was" talking about? Dust - sure, both Valinor and the beauty/goodness of life metaphorically. Ships? The metaphor might still apply, but only stretched thinly. I sometimes feel that the line is literally only there for linking with Truth.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
Oh yeah, Nogrod's a place. I've found myself trying to bold mentions of canon characters from time to time, so I get where you're coming from. ^_^
I haven't bolded characters' names yet, but maybe it's only because since switching to my phone as the more frequent means of Downsing I got rather lazy with the bolding. But have you ever accidentally referred to Manwe's herald as Steve? It's bad...
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Old 09-21-2020, 08:17 PM   #275
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And here is the first sample of Oath, for tasters. Except I will probably be redoing it, because first it took me a while to get into the swing of it, and when I started feeling the music it ran away to somewhere heroic. Or will it sound less so with the vocals on top? I don't know. Any suggestions? I think I am lacking a good mood description to direct the flow of the music. Angry? Nasty? I was going for "dark" initially but that seems too vague.
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Old 09-22-2020, 01:40 AM   #276
Huinesoron
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Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
And here is the first sample of Oath, for tasters. Except I will probably be redoing it, because first it took me a while to get into the swing of it, and when I started feeling the music it ran away to somewhere heroic. Or will it sound less so with the vocals on top? I don't know. Any suggestions? I think I am lacking a good mood description to direct the flow of the music. Angry? Nasty? I was going for "dark" initially but that seems too vague.
Ooh, yikes. It sounds really good musically, but... not like the Oath. The first part feels a bit dirge-y, and the second part, as you say, goes a bit heroic.

I think almost all versions of the Oath come out as closer to a hard rock/heavy metal feel; it reminds me very much of Nightfall (which may not be a coincidence). It's angry... proud... defiant might be the best word. This is the Sons of Feanor casting their Oath into the face of the Light and Dark alike and daring anyone to stand against them. ("Light and Dark can both be damned!"...)

Just don't ask me how to put that into music. ^_~

hS
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Old 09-24-2020, 03:09 AM   #277
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A number of things have come together - I'm back working from home, and I've acquired a better video editing program* - and have led me to consider upgrading from 'digital sketch' to 'pencil-coloured portraits'.

[Edit: big picture removed, see below]

I'm pondering doing something like Jenny Dolfen did with her Sons of Finwe pins, and letting them escape the frames a little; we'll see if I can find natural ways to cut the portraits off to do that.

(Yes, if I do this it will mean a fourth Finrod, eesh.)

Heraldry would remain digital. Backgrounds... digital for now, though open to change in the future.

*The new software is OpenShot, which has - gasp! - layers. Which means I can shift the 'assembly' stage from image editing to video editing, and can insert revised artwork much easier. I spent an hour or so transferring the Captivity video over to OS night before last, so that one will be all ready to go once we have all the voices.

EDIT: So I did Cel'n'Cur.



Spacing and background are just for the demo, but it kind of... works?

hS

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Old 09-24-2020, 04:25 PM   #278
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A number of things have come together - I'm back working from home, and I've acquired a better video editing program* - and have led me to consider upgrading from 'digital sketch' to 'pencil-coloured portraits'.
Cel'n'Cur look absolutely amazing!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
*The new software is OpenShot, which has - gasp! - layers. Which means I can shift the 'assembly' stage from image editing to video editing, and can insert revised artwork much easier.
Not 100% sure what that actually means, but I'm excited for it! I will go poke our Captivity singers to see how things are going on that end.

Meanwhile...

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I think almost all versions of the Oath come out as closer to a hard rock/heavy metal feel; it reminds me very much of Nightfall (which may not be a coincidence). It's angry... proud... defiant might be the best word. This is the Sons of Feanor casting their Oath into the face of the Light and Dark alike and daring anyone to stand against them. ("Light and Dark can both be damned!"...)

Just don't ask me how to put that into music. ^_~
Ok, this helped - to a point. I think I got as far as angry, but not sure that I managed to reach defiant. That might require yet another take. But here is what came out this time. Continued feedback and mood tips would be very appreciated. This one is clearly a bit of a struggle.

The thing is, I can't write it in hard rock/heavy metal genre. It's just not a genre I feel I can do, even if I figured out how to score the right instruments. I don't actually know what I'm doing most of the time, just going by what feels right, and I have no feels in the realm of metal to go off of. So I'm also simultaneously transposing it onto a more classical instrument assembly - like having the piano take over the role of percussion. I got some surprise inspiration with - you'd never guess - the fast theme from the score of How To Train Your Dragon. It also has a strong bass/sax section, and lots of triplets, so there was some unwilling association. I am hoping that by cleaning up the volume a little bit you'd be able to hear the melody a little bit better; right now everything is kinda set between "loud" and "very loud", so it's hard to make out the notes that are supposed to stand out in that soup no matter how much I accent them.
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Old 09-25-2020, 02:39 AM   #279
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Cel'n'Cur look absolutely amazing!
Hurrah! I had to completely redraw Curufin's eyebrows on the computer, because he looked - shudder - happy in the original.

Next up is redrawing Finrod, and then deciding whether Wind or the Lament will be easiest to reconstruct in the new style.

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Ok, this helped - to a point. I think I got as far as angry, but not sure that I managed to reach defiant. That might require yet another take. But here is what came out this time. Continued feedback and mood tips would be very appreciated. This one is clearly a bit of a struggle.
I gave this one a 'yeeeees!' from the very first notes. That's definitely more like it. ^_^

hS
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Old 09-25-2020, 05:27 AM   #280
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Originally Posted by Huinesoron View Post
Hurrah! I had to completely redraw Curufin's eyebrows on the computer, because he looked - shudder - happy in the original.

Next up is redrawing Finrod, and then deciding whether Wind or the Lament will be easiest to reconstruct in the new style.
Cur does have this hint of a smirk which makes him look slightly amused. I wouldn't call that expression happy, but it does seem like he is in a good mood. Given that he's facing the gloomy Cel, it's like he's amused but tolerant of Cel's attempts of wooing Luthien.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
I gave this one a 'yeeeees!' from the very first notes. That's definitely more like it. ^_^
I will still need to retouch it. So not too late to add the constructive criticism.

I expect the middle part to be a lot easier. But then, it's all sung on one note. You know what? I might change that a tiny bit if I can make it work, because it's just boring otherwise.
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