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Old 07-18-2020, 02:09 PM   #121
Galadriel55
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Tinkering (TM)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Finrod's Duel
But greater is the guilt
Of he who in the dark
Shameless and stark
Taught pride to Elven hearts-!
"In shameless farce"? "Shameless in arts"? Aaaaahhh!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Epilogue
Why did my fair brother go
Into sunset glow,
Forgiving all oaths?
"And forgive all oaths"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Epilogue
Did he reach a final accord
In his daunting struggle with fate?
What left he behind in his wake
When he took the Westernly road?
"When to West Wind he was restored"?


Late edits:

Slightly altered the beginning of Captivity, because I realized I'm missing beats.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Meeting of Lutien and Beren
Fates apart, joining them is risky
"Fates apart, and joining them is risky"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Truth
Is the secret heart of mortals.
Maybe just "The secret etc".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Luthien's Duel
I will take what is and always has been mine!
"And I will take"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Likewise
Love will melt the chains of cold
Tear down walls of stone and burn the bars away!
Suggestions for "My love" and "the walls".
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Old 07-18-2020, 02:19 PM   #122
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Of Fathers and Sons, Modern Edition (remember Finrod the moody teenager?)

There is only one who wields the wifi in this home
Only he who doubtless can take care of life alone.
You see, but you do not dare to face the bitter truth:
You are still dependent on he who created you!

- Fine!
I will go clean my room,
I will not slam the doors,
I'll do my chores,
And spend time outdoors!
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Old 07-18-2020, 04:46 PM   #123
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The Camp

BEREN:
Why, my King, are you not asleep tonight?
FINROD:
Do not call me "king", it's a foregone title.
The long years have scattered like leaves in flight,
And I walk through them as a blind man, sightless.

I destroyed my love, I now comprehend.
You opened afresh my wounds in this hour. [or "my heart"? I wish both could fit into this line.] [or, for better rhythm, "my wounds you afresh opened in this hour"?]
I'm prepared to fight to the bitter end
'Gainst the Lord of Fetters in northern tower!

An ancient oath is leading my House down this way
It chased me down from my nest and familiar hedge. [ehhh?]
For the Oath's sake I passed through ice and sea, I have lived as a castaway,
But duty must be *
Duty must be
Duty must be -
Never revenge!

The haven's ruins [ashes?], abandoned home,
And dawn in a new terrain,
And heart that is no longer grieving what's done -
But nothing has been in vain!


FINROD / BEREN (echo)
Untrembling ** I gaze into fate's eyes
I gaze into the eyes of fate
And there is nothing I would change in my doom,
Unyielding is its path above
But only thanks to your account tonight
But only now I comprehend:
I see at last that love indeed knows no rules!
There is no boundary to love.
Within your words a saving thought is born
Amid the grey mists and the snows
And closure to a vow left unaccomplished.
It glimmers with eternal light.
My [our] grief is not that we must be forlorn, ["are here forlorn? are now forlorn?" "Must" makes it sound like it's just another part of their destiny earlier, which I like]
***
My [our] grief is that our song was left unfinished...







Just as it was difficult initially to find the perfect fit for "Lord of Fetters in northern tower" and "love knows no rules", now it's difficult to find the right fit for the second set of lines that are supposed to rhyme with them. Having to reference earlier songs is both less work and more work.

* "Duty this is", to use your expression, is much too Yoda. But syllable count doesn't allow for anything grammatically correct in English.

** May I please? I know it's not a real word, but it somehow makes sense here. Unless you have a "real word" suggestion that fits well here?

*** The Libretto has a third Beren line here, something akin to "To speak of it there are no words...". But V2 Beren doesn't sing this line, probably to leave Finrod's recurring motif unmixed. Are you leaning either way with regards to including this line, or a variation on it?



And a note I forgot to include in the Tinkering post:
I changed "courage" for "valour of kings of the past" in the Epilogue. I saw it in the V2 subs and thought it was the more accurate translation.


Holy bananas! Just two songs left! (Plus a million little edits)
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Old 07-18-2020, 05:09 PM   #124
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No substance to this post other than to say that "Where crowned in snows / rise in song-spoken glory / death-defying peaks" in my mind is probably the most exquisite line in the translated musical. It gives me the shivers.

PS: as this is a post I am fairly sure you haven't seen yet, and the last thing I am likely to post today, just wanna note that I again did the little late edits thing to pretty much every post Captivity onward. Letting you know here in case you have glanced at these posts already.
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Old 07-19-2020, 01:35 PM   #125
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Okay, taking this out of order, I'm going to look at Captivity before the notes on my translations.

-I... can't make the Elves' first section scan. I can just about handle the second half ('Like hammer') if 'shield' is two syllables and so is 'ham'ring', but the first half escapes me.

I think I can suggest 'raised' to replace 'cracked' for the shield, to evoke Fingolfin before Morgoth. I feel like there's better options than frightening (kind of understated) and hammering (repeat of hammer), but without knowing how they're meant to scan... :-/

-Sauron 1, in contrast, is wonderful.

-Elves again... I'm finding more syllables than you've written (a completely different issue to last time!). I think I can safely suggest changing the last line to 'By ship or floe' (as in ice floe), but the rest is beyond me.

-Sauron 2... I see your problem. How about this:

I feel ill at ease about that purported minstrel
Who would dare to challenge me with song in battle fell
Next to him, the rest of them won't give me any gain
Let the strongest warrior the last alive remain!


The last line is great!

-Elves & Finrod: this scans perfectly, so I don't know what's throwing me off earlier! I actually quite like the arrow/ruthless/breath/song setup you have.

-Sauron... has a sore throat. Right. I don't think once/times works as a rhyme, but how about 'falls'? If the second line runs [i]Let him face it many times as each companion falls![i], then I think it works. The third... take the second version, but change 'before his' to 'in his own', to emphasise that it's Finrod's own mind that will make him responsible? Again, I love the last line.

-Finrod! I'm... not entirely clear on what Finrod is saying here (in the original either). I think the first line might work better as 'The price you've set, my honour to defame', to explicitly refer back to Sauron's own 'price'. The last line... um, Finrod, he just said it's the right price, not that it's too high. And wouldn't Sauron be more 'such a little price to pay'? Do you understand what he's saying?

-Final lines: I like these. 'Here' works just fine for the ending; I like 'now' but can't find a single rhyme for it.

And responses to your first post after my last:

-Sauron/Morgoth: agreed, on reflection. Not sure why they want Morgoth to live in the ice; maybe they needed the rhymes too.

-I habitually capitalise the Sea when referring to Belegaer; I probably shouldn't.

-Luthien v. House Feanor: to play up Curufin's casualness, how about 'Just choose one'?

-^_^ I owe a debt to the Leithian Script for 'your king', where Beren winds the Feanorions up by saying exactly this.

-'Land of Woe' - I think 'army' needs to say, because 'force' could easily cover the Ten. I'm happy to lose 'the'.

Okay, back to Wind. I think we can clean Amarie's motivations and meanings up a bit here. I'll have a think now, and post separately.

hS
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Old 07-19-2020, 01:48 PM   #126
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The final stretch - Prison Duet

BEREN:
What wretched fortune did befall...
I hear the final trumpet call!
Soon you and I will both be gone
Only our names will linger on.
//or//
Of you and I, we both know plain,
Only our names will soon remain.

FINROD:
The ships have wandered in the skies [or did wander, to match the line below?]
And in the dust the gold did shine!
But, life entrusted to fate's hand
I know no longer who I am.

BEREN:
Wind blowing
With ash it dances in the light.
FINROD:
And glowing
Upon my shoulder dawn's mark bright.
How shall I stay
Before the Day [By Throne of Day?] *
A witness mesmerized of other people's oaths fell?...

BEREN:
Are you afraid to die, my King? **
FINROD:
Of this thought I can only sing! ***
BEREN:
Each minute falls more dark and drear
But not for myself is my fear.

FINROD:
More mute than stones - only the dead,
And worse than death is only dread!
BEREN:
And worse than dread lies something still:
The duty you [I? we? one?] could not fulfill.

FINROD:
Soul lingers
In turmoil and in anguish long.
BEREN:
Two brothers
Together stand in cage and song!
FINROD:
Forgive me now
BEREN:
Forgive me now
BOTH:
That I, unwitting, brought your reckoning about... ****

BEREN:
I could have moved the very hills!
FINROD:
I thought were deathless mirth and sun!
BEREN:
My lot was love, for good or ill. [filler material: is it appropriate?]
FINROD:
But death makes equal everyone.
BOTH:
And Eru's Gift which your (my) kin bear
Between the two of us we'll share.

BEREN:
My love afar in distant land
FINROD:
My love afar in distant land
BEREN:
How heavy lies your gentle hand!
FINROD:
With bitter touch now falls your hand!
BOTH:
Your trail in treachery imbued,
But I have no life without you.

BEREN:
He who loves
Is burning in a flame unseen!
FINROD:
Long time was [For years was?]
Extinguished in me fire's sheen.
What shall I say
Before the Day
A witness mesmerized of other people's hope fell?...

BEREN:
I hear the final trumpet call!
FINROD:
All things will happen in their stead. [All things must come in proper stead?]
BEREN:
But what strange fortune did befall!
FINROD:
I beg you, let me go ahead!
I have been granted much in life
But not to finish my designs.

FINROD:
Disowned by my own people's hearts...
BEREN:
But till the end they were your care.
FINROD:
A king who perished in the dark!
BEREN:
But there is not a face more fair!
FINROD:
Of the two lights, just one may be;
I chose the one in front of me. *****

BEREN:
Those daring
To love can walk unscathed through strife! ******
FINROD:
But, Beren,
What deed could justify my life?
How shall I stay
Before the Day
A witness mesmerized of other people's doom fell?...





This was a tough one to get through. For once "brother" was not an issue, but pretty much everything else was. The content was quite dense and evolving quickly, not much wiggle room. Overall I am fairly happy with it, but there are a few points that were meh.


* This was so much easier in V1: "The price to stand before the Throne of Day etc". How on earth do I fit "Who will I be when I stand before the Throne of Day" into a short rhyming couplet?! And the second time Finrod says it, he asks what shall he recall before the Throne of Day, but I don't think there is any way to get it to fit exactly. "What shall I say" I think compromises well between bringing up memories and giving justification.

** I end up referencing to Finrod as "king" a couple of times, but he told Beren specifically not to call him that - and Beren calls Finrod his brother later, so it's doubly inappropriate for him to say "my King". Neither can Beren call him "Finrod", that would ruin the whole drama about not knowing his name/identity anymore (though I took out the explicit wording about his name in favour of a better flowing version). Partially this is filler to rhyme with the next line (which is also wanting), but "My King" really should go.

*** This is my least favourite line in the song, and I'm afraid it hasn't improved in translation, so suggestions are welcome. Finrod, what is it that you can only express in song? Your fear? Your lack of fear? Your death? Your current plight? Your dense rhyming scheme?

**** This line sits a little lopsidedly. This is the best of the versions I had, but suggestions are welcome.

***** Any idea what those lines are referring to? Is it just Finrod's endless struggle of choosing the greater of two rights: love and conscience vs friendship, duty to Beren vs duty to Nargothrond?

****** "Only those who are faithful/loyal will stand on the edge without fear". This is fairly vague, possibly referring to facing death, or to "walk on the edge" and make it though; certainly being faithful in his original phrase is broad enough to encompass Finrod's loyalty to his oath, not just love. But I wanted to preserve Finrod's lines, so Beren just got rhyming filler. My question is - do you think this line is in character for Beren?


Edit: crossed with your post. Yay!
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Old 07-19-2020, 02:06 PM   #127
Huinesoron
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Okay - Wind. The song has three verse/chorus pairs, with each verse being 2 stanzas. I think this needs to be:

1/ Amarie realises Finrod is dead, both in her heart and because the forests tell her.

2/ Amarie reaches out to Finrod.

3/ Not knowing whether she has reached him, Amarie mourns Finrod.

Or at least roughly. The Russian splits the mourning verse around the 'outreach' one, and I think I'd like to keep that. Let's see how this goes:

Wind (Amarie's Dream)

AMARIE:
Wind
Has disturbed the slumber of the leaves.
I call to thee
As the daylight fades beneath the trees.
Trees fall still
Like an army mourning their lost king.
No sound tonight
But the willows weeping.

Wind
On the whispered midnight wind I hear
"Just believe
Though neither mind nor eyes can see"
On this grass
There's again the imprint of your feet.
All is still
But the trees are weeping!

Dust is swirling over woodland pathway
Shadows deepen under blooming lindens
What has passed, my lord of constant change
Have you burned the ships that could bear you back again?
You should have stayed at my side...!

Wind
There's a wind that's moaning in the dark
Destined
For a heart that's torn itself apart
Now you're gone
My whole world is like a house in ruins
Now you're gone
And my heart stops beating!

See:
How the stars shine still upon the trees
Listen:
When I speak your name the whole wood sings!
Back
From out of shadow come to me
With the night - and with night you'll heal me!

Let my words flow out between us
Bear you back to star-leaved maples
And with your crown of golden locks
You will raise your head and answer me at last:
Why did you turn from my side?

Wind
Rushing forth from these forest glades
Searching
To bear your spirit on its way
I will wait
To discover if you come or stay
In the Night
And the Night is weeping!

Wind
Bring him to me or give me peace
Come the day
I fear I will have to face my loss
Until dawn
Let me become as the silent trees
Let me stay
In the Night - let pain cease

The mist lies thick o'er woodland pathway
The leafy fingers weave their web
Lord, is all this world a lie?
Lord, have you truly in the darkness met your death?
Will you return to my side?

Wind...
It was just the wind...


I prefer this version - it does what I think the song is meant to do. I've put it into the Libretto (the original version is moved down to Appendix B), but if you feel it goes too far we can look for a middle ground. It's very much a line-by-line edit; I don't think I've even changed any of the rhymes! So individual lines can switch back.

hS
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Old 07-19-2020, 02:37 PM   #128
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Running through the rest of the tinkering, then we'll see where we get to.

Missed this on 'Captivity':

The price for which my honour to defame
To trample in the dust [to ravage and defile] my last possession.
Don't lie to me that you guessed not my name!
Don't lie to me that your price is excessive!


I think my replacement The price you've set, my honour to defame still fits well, and either 'trample' or 'ravage' works. That last line... is he trying to say 'Don't try and say the price is too high, I will pay it?'. But in that case, the 'price' is the cost of preserving his honour - is that right? As in 'I will suffer through this gladly if it lets me fulfil my oath'?

-Shameless and stark

I don't even think 'shameless' is the right word any more. How about 'With cunning arts'? Evoking Saruman's voice (by association with Orthanc 'The Cunning Mind'), and the making of swords (art = craft). I think I like that.

-And forgive all oaths / When to West Wind he was restored

How about 'Who forgave all oaths'? The second line works nicely, and ties in well with 'Wind' itself. Actually, there's a lot of links between Amarie's song and Galadriel's, which only makes sense!

-All other tweaks: sure!

(As to Teenrod and Dadron - SNORT. And thank you for the comment on the 'song-spoken glory' line - I worked hard on that one!)

hS
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Old 07-19-2020, 02:52 PM   #129
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I will come back to 'Camp' and 'Duet' tomorrow (probably tomorrow), but inspiration has just struck for the 'duty' triplet. How about this:

But this is MY will
This is my will
This is my will!
Duty, not rage.


It dilutes it slightly, but the rest of the verse has been 'we did this because of the Oath'. Now he's saying 'this is what I choose to do - not out of anger, but out of duty'. (I think I stuck 'rage' in for 'revenge' in the Renunciation, so there's precedent.)

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Old 07-19-2020, 03:47 PM   #130
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Huinesoron View Post
-I... can't make the Elves' first section scan. I can just about handle the second half ('Like hammer') if 'shield' is two syllables and so is 'ham'ring', but the first half escapes me.
Yes, "shield" became 2 syllables and "hammering" either overlaps with Sauron's line or becomes "ham'ring".

In the first line, "chills" is also 2 syllables.
Second line: And - the - dark - is - friiiiight - en - iiiiing (where they do a little melodic trill on the last syllable).

I think it works, but that stanza tripped me up as well. I thought I fixed it, but I will do a sing along again to see if it works.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
I think I can suggest 'raised' to replace 'cracked' for the shield, to evoke Fingolfin before Morgoth. I feel like there's better options than frightening (kind of understated) and hammering (repeat of hammer), but without knowing how they're meant to scan... :-/
Yes! "Raised!" That is perfect. I will think about the other two. I agree about "frightening", it's a bit too "aww, you're scared of the dark". But like you I have no replacement at the moment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
Elves again... I'm finding more syllables than you've written (a completely different issue to last time!). I think I can safely suggest changing the last line to 'By ship or floe' (as in ice floe), but the rest is beyond me.
"Floe" taken. In all of the lines I ended up having to double-note the last syllable (like in "shield" the first time). High, Ice, twice are all stretched. Does that help any? Or are the lines just too messy and need to be completely reworked?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
Sauron 2... I see your problem. How about this:

I feel ill at ease about that purported minstrel
Who would dare to challenge me with song in battle fell
Next to him, the rest of them won't give me any gain
Let the strongest warrior the last alive remain!
Thank you! This works wonderfully!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
Elves & Finrod: this scans perfectly, so I don't know what's throwing me off earlier! I actually quite like the arrow/ruthless/breath/song setup you have.
Hmm, it's the same meter and all... The only difference is now "ruthless" takes up 2 syllables and doesn't need to be stretched.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
I don't think once/times works as a rhyme, but how about 'falls'? If the second line runs [i]Let him face it many times as each companion falls![i], then I think it works.
Hmm, okay. I'm not sure the rhyme is better - at least in my accent. But it takes care of the repeating "but", which was bugging me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
The third... take the second version, but change 'before his' to 'in his own', to emphasise that it's Finrod's own mind that will make him responsible?
I see. I guess the "witness" element is implied throughout the stanza, so the "eyes" can be put to different use. Good point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
Finrod! I'm... not entirely clear on what Finrod is saying here (in the original either). I think the first line might work better as 'The price you've set, my honour to defame', to explicitly refer back to Sauron's own 'price'. The last line... um, Finrod, he just said it's the right price, not that it's too high. And wouldn't Sauron be more 'such a little price to pay'? Do you understand what he's saying?
I think they're just flipping around what is being "bought" and what is being "sold", therefore "price" means different things in the same transaction as it's viewed from different angles - in the original too.

"For his bold impertinence this is a worthy price": both "you ****ed me off, so take that", as well as "let's see how much it will take to break your bold impertinence". The price therefore grows proportionally with Finrod's stubbornness and refusal to give information.

"The price for which my honour to defame": more like how much suffering he will be spared if he agrees to Sauron's terms. (He flips "price" to the inverted value, if that makes sense?) I think your version could work here.

"Your price seems too lavish": back to the initial meaning. His growing suffering is NOT too high a price to pay for his honour, though Sauron the inquisitor [supposedly, but not in the actual text] implies it is, because that is what would convince a prisoner to yield. In Russian, Finrod uses the word "payment" rather than "price" here. The payment for his honour. "Don't lie to me that payment seems excessive!" Would that sound better?

It's like:
Be stubborn = suffer
Less suffering = give up honour
Therefore, Be stubborn = keep honour but also keep suffering.
Price for honour is suffering, price for "less suffering" is "less honour". And the "price" is different versions of that equation thrown around in different order, so it's at once too big and too small and just right.

I agree, the element missing from the text is an explicit explanation that Sauron isn't just torturing them for fun and vengeance, he actually wants something from them. And I guess the fact that Finrod is "paying" for different things too - his daring and his information/honour...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
'Here' works just fine for the ending; I like 'now' but can't find a single rhyme for it.
Same here. I like the dichotomy of then/now, but it's a poor rhyme for "sooner".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
Luthien v. House Feanor: to play up Curufin's casualness, how about 'Just choose one'?
Heehee! Oh, poor bloke. Yeah, maybe that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
'Land of Woe' - I think 'army' needs to say, because 'force' could easily cover the Ten. I'm happy to lose 'the'.
Fair. Didn't think of that.


WIND - I like this version a lot better! It actually makes sense! And it ties in with the rest of the songs. You're right in that it does more of what it's supposed to do. Definitely stick with this one.

I am starting to get the hang of the melody, so here are the inevitable rhythm nitpicks (and as usual, most are optional, I will let you know if something needs changing):

Quote:
No sound tonight
She only has 3 syllables for that. "Silent night"? Hmm, no, I think better to keep what you have.

Quote:
Dust is swirling over woodland pathway
Shadows deepen under blooming lindens
It comes out to woodLAND pathWAY, and blooMING linDENS.

Quote:
My whole world is like a house in ruins
"Ruins" comes out to 1 syllable, which is doable but a tad awkward. I think it should also sort of rhyme with dark/apart. The rhyme is whatever, no biggie; and if you think the rhythm needs fixing, I propose flipping the placing of the noun: "My whole world is like a ruined house", "like a ravaged home", etc.

Addendum: on a second sing-through, "ruins" actually doesn't stick out that much. It's very doable.

Quote:
And my heart stops beating!
Nice reference!

Quote:
Let my words flow out between us
Bear you back to star-leaved maples
And with your crown of golden locks
All of these lines are technically missing a downbeat.
#1 is not critical, as the stretch fall on "out", which works almost naturally as a two-syllable word.
#2 is more difficult. It needs an extra beat between "back" and "maples".
- Bear you back again to star-leaved maples? (I like this one better than the next)
- Bear you back to star-leavťd maples?

#3: the way it falls in my head, the stretched place is "And", and the extra syllable goes between "and" and "crown". My brain automatically corrects the sentence to "And with your fair crown of golden locks". However, I'm sure that if you read it with a different emphasis initially, it might flow differently, I just can't shake off the rhythm I had initially. If you do change it, I don't think "fair" is the best choice, when there are things like "bright" and "glowing (without your)".

Quote:
You will raise your head and answer me at last:
I am very glad that he doesn't hang his head anymore. It's what Russian!Amarie says, but I just don't like it. He doesn't deserve it. I like raising better; he still answers for his choice, and maybe even regrets his choice, but he's not ashamed of it! Especially if this comes after Truth, where he makes peace with himself.

Quote:
Rushing forth from these forest glades
"From these dark forest glades", maybe?

On the topic of this stanza, I love the whole thing! Yes! Go Amarie!

Quote:
Let me become as the silent trees
I feel like I either have to over-rush "as the", or do weird things with the start of the sentence. Do you think it's possible for her to drop "the"?

Quote:
The mist lies thick o'er woodland pathway
This has the same problem as before, woodLAND pathWAY. Since this ideally rhymes with "lie"... How about "Over woodland pathway a thick mist lies"?

Quote:
The leafy fingers weave their web
Lord, is all this world a lie?
I feel like I am missing syllables again in both lines. Or else not reading them with the intended meter.
- And the leafy fingers weave their webs? [optional 1 syllable in the second half too]

Ah, I think I got the second to work. They just all have to be slow beats, right? But if you wanna follow the quick syllables, how about "Lord, tell me: is all this world a lie"?


Hey, it's growing on me! At least in the translated version.


Crossed since your Wind post.
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Old 07-19-2020, 04:02 PM   #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Huinesoron View Post
The price for which my honour to defame
To trample in the dust [to ravage and defile] my last possession.
Don't lie to me that you guessed not my name!
Don't lie to me that your price is excessive!


I think my replacement The price you've set, my honour to defame still fits well, and either 'trample' or 'ravage' works. That last line... is he trying to say 'Don't try and say the price is too high, I will pay it?'. But in that case, the 'price' is the cost of preserving his honour - is that right? As in 'I will suffer through this gladly if it lets me fulfil my oath'?
Yes! That is exactly what he is trying to say! He ends up flipping around the "price", or the directionality of the transaction, or something. Maybe "deal" is a better word for it, because it's bi-directional. He may save himself suffering, but by the same "deal" lose his honour, and that's not a "deal" he'd agree to. Do you think we should rework this stanza to keep it consistent?

Giving it a try here, with just a subtle tweak for starters:

A price to pay or honour to defame,
To trample in the dust my last possession.
Don't lie to me that you guessed not my name!
Don't lie to me that your price seems excessive!


Or,
To stay the price is honour to defame (with the rest as above)

I guess if we were going for both a consistent "price" and the structure, Finrod would have to say "The price for which my honour to preserve / uphold / retain / etc". Then the second line needs to be changed, because it makes no sense. And the third for rhyme - though, if he uses "retain" or "maintain", he can keep "name". And I just had an idea for the second line...

The price for which my honour to retain,
To keep from tarnishing my last possession. [To keep defilement from my last possession? Divert defilement from my...? To safeguard from disgrace...? To keep from blackened stain...?]
Don't lie to me that you guessed not my name!
Don't lie to me that payment seems excessive!



By the way, there is nothing "set" about keeping "last possession", it's not in the lyrics or anything. But that phrase came to me and I really liked it. Finrod lost his love, lost his crown, now all he has is his honour...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
I don't even think 'shameless' is the right word any more. How about 'With cunning arts'? Evoking Saruman's voice (by association with Orthanc 'The Cunning Mind'), and the making of swords (art = craft). I think I like that.
I think "shameless" is good, but I also agree that "with cunning arts" is overall better.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
How about 'Who forgave all oaths'?
Do you think it makes sense with the grammar if we put "who" there?
Why did my fair brother go
Into sunset glow,
Who forgave all oaths?


But I'll take it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
The second line works nicely, and ties in well with 'Wind' itself. Actually, there's a lot of links between Amarie's song and Galadriel's, which only makes sense!
Yes, I was thinking exactly that last night!

(I guess the two women in his life also had a lot in common. )

Quote:
Originally Posted by Huinesoron View Post
I will come back to 'Camp' and 'Duet' tomorrow (probably tomorrow), but inspiration has just struck for the 'duty' triplet. How about this:

But this is MY will
This is my will
This is my will!
Duty, not rage.


It dilutes it slightly, but the rest of the verse has been 'we did this because of the Oath'. Now he's saying 'this is what I choose to do - not out of anger, but out of duty'. (I think I stuck 'rage' in for 'revenge' in the Renunciation, so there's precedent.)
And not even a bit Yoda!
[Edit: You kept "revenge" in Renunciation, but this one is a balance between fitting in "revenge" and fitting in "duty", so one has to take the hit... But also, if we take out "revenge", we can change his second line in that verse. I had "hedge", as opposed to other variants, mainly to rhyme with "revenge". It works well with "rage" too though. Argh!]



PS: Realized that in Captivity I used "distant" twice in a row, so changed to "gentle" - or whatever adjective fits best, really. Updated in the post above and on the Doc.
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Last edited by Galadriel55; 07-19-2020 at 09:13 PM. Reason: More versions of the honour/price stanza
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Old 07-19-2020, 05:29 PM   #132
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Since we're nearing Thingol's song (dunno why, but I never expected it to be the last one standing), there is a (sadly untranslatable) quirk I should probably warn you about. You know how in V1 at the end he keeps repeating "I Sent him! I Sent him!"? I think their translation even put "Sent him packing!" in that spot for emphasis. Well. Thingol sent Beren to get a Silmaril, yes. But to "send someone" is also a euphemistic phrase to, uhh, send them to hell, to the ends of the earth, to the devil's grandmother, or what have you. As a real life example of the usage, not too long ago I was telling my family that I lost my patience with a frequent spam caller and sent them so hard (so far?) that they never called me again afterwards. So Thingol is punning a double meaning of "I told Beren to go screw himself, to shove off, go eat it, etc". I don't think this could work the same in English, but you have full "canonical" license to make Comedy Thingol as ridiculous and punny as your heart desires.
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Old 07-19-2020, 07:32 PM   #133
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Where too much rhyming can get you:

Not much courage needed to meet dreadful death but once.
But to face it many times makes Finrod quite the dunce!




ETA: still no better ideas for once/falls, but here is a question for the next line:
He will hold the blame for every death in his own eyes.
vs
For each witnessed death he'll hold the blame in his own eyes


I'm not convinced I like it better than the first. In fact, I think I don't. I'm just fiddling around with keeping the image of Finrod having to watch the deaths helplessly.

Oh, hey! He will feel the blame for every death before his eyes. Thoughts?
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Old 07-20-2020, 03:55 AM   #134
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Trying out 'bold for suggestions' again.

The Camp

Do not call me "king", it's a foregone title. > I've forsworn that title? A bit more oathiness, and a bit more agency for Finrod (he gave it up; it wasn't just lost.)

I like the way you worked with the Lord of Fetters stanza; it's good.

Okay, that nest line... eesh. How about this?

Driving me forth like a bird not yet ready to fledge.

The following line... well, I can't get it to scan, but I don't think castaway fits anyway. It only rhymes with 'way', right? Could we switch the first line back to 'down this road and go for something like:

For the Oath's sake I was cast out, braving the Sea and bitter Cold?

There are other options for 'will' - 'choice' is another big one. I really liked 'charge' as a direct synonym for duty, but it sounds too much like 'charge into battle'.

Either 'ashes' or 'ruins' works. Can we do domain instead of terrain? And is the Russian line closer to 'But nothing' or 'For (=because) nothing has been in vain'?

For the final echo, I have no comments, because I like it as it is.

hS
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Old 07-20-2020, 06:55 AM   #135
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Huinesoron View Post
Do not call me "king", it's a foregone title. > I've forsworn that title? A bit more oathiness, and a bit more agency for Finrod (he gave it up; it wasn't just lost.)
Yeah, that makes sense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
Okay, that nest line... eesh. How about this?

Driving me forth like a bird not yet ready to fledge.

The following line... well, I can't get it to scan, but I don't think castaway fits anyway. It only rhymes with 'way', right? Could we switch the first line back to 'down this road and go for something like:

For the Oath's sake I was cast out, braving the Sea and bitter Cold?
Lol, eesh exactly. Your bird line is so much better. And I like the other two as well (though I feel like your version of "for the Oath's sake" is missing syllables - but is easier to pronounce for that, no tongue twisting). Both taken without questions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
There are other options for 'will' - 'choice' is another big one. I really liked 'charge' as a direct synonym for duty, but it sounds too much like 'charge into battle'.
I don't think I like "charge", both for the reason you have, and because it's shade of obligation is not quite the same, if that makes sense. "Will" sounds more like Finrod decided and this is his final say on the matter, while "Choice" emphasizes that he has options and keeps choosing to continue to go on with Beren. Since we've deviated from the text a bit here, I'm not sure what Finrod should be like exactly. I will try "choice" for sound, and also because if we're going with the emphasis of "this is ME, not the OATH!', "choice" does that better. On the other hand, "Will" has a better emphasis of "I know I'm going against the Oath but that's my decision to make". How is ONE WORD so complicated?

Quote:
Either 'ashes' or 'ruins' works.
Was Alqualonde ever burned? The Russian has "ashes", but I couldn't recall any burning to parallel that. Unless it's not actually Alqualonde they mean but Feanor's ship bonfire party, but I don't think so, and it would be out of chronicity. I like the sound of "ashes" but at the same time I want it to stick to the canon, because "ruin" is also perfectly fine here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
Can we do domain instead of terrain? And is the Russian line closer to 'But nothing' or 'For (=because) nothing has been in vain'?
Yes, and either (they just say "nothing happens in vain", no conjunction specified, both interpretations possible). "But" makes it sound like all of the above things have lead him to his next uplifting stanza, including his repressed heartache. "For" makes it sound like he's not grieving for these things because he knows they have not been in vain, which I think misses the point of the long heartache (which he very much had until this very song). I think the heartache is the personal price he paid for his choice to follow the Noldor (honestly though, I feel that there would have been a worm eating at his conscience either way, he could not have chosen "well" for himself), and I wouldn't dismiss it for the other option of "my heart is not grieving NOW because you made me all happy again". But again, that is my preference, both interpretations are there in both languages, so if there's an argument in favour of the other it could change.

I wonder now if the "heart" line should be changed as well if "But" prevails, just to keep the two interpretations separately. "And heart that CAN no longer grieve what's done" also scans, and has a stronger "heartache" connotation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
For the final echo, I have no comments, because I like it as it is.
I get to keep "Untrembling"? Yay!
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Old 07-20-2020, 07:41 AM   #136
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Coming back to Captivity, have a range of syllables!

The ice of our enchanted bonds - chills
Like Dark[ness/Night] Eternal[/Everlasting]
Like hammer falling on a raised shield
The foe is crushing.


I think that second line either has a beat I'm not seeing in the lyrics, or 'chills' is trying to run over into the first beat of it.

I get the "years of hardship" stanza now! My only quibble is that it has a "THE oath" in the middle. Can I suggest We followed Oathbound through the Great Ice?

I don't think there's a problem with stretching the final words - it fits the style of the song.

I've been a proud king. How upon my death
I shall be known
< Dare I suggest Shall I be known?

Ah, and we come to the Price. So:

He will feel the blame for every death before his eyes

That's pretty good! Could even be He will blame himself for, or alternately, He will feel the shame of.

I still can't get my head around Finrod's response here, so I shall leave it to you for now.

Skipping down slightly for a brief glimpse at the Epilogue:

Why did my fair brother go
Into sunset glow,
Who forgave all oaths?


Perfectly grammatical - knock out the central clause, and you're left with "Why did Tim leave, who brought such lovely cakes?".

And back to Wind:

No sound tonight - Just No sound now works.

"It comes out to woodLAND pathWAY, and blooMING linDENS." - I... don't think it does? I hear a very firm DUST is SWIRLing O-ver WOODland PATHway structure on these lines. Is there a syllable somewhere that's throwing me off?

My whole world is like a house in ruins - I never liked that line anyway. ^_~ Let's see:

My whole world has crumbled into dust
My world crumbles; I cannot avert
My light fades into a meagre spark

Coming to the key passage now, how does this work:

Hear my words flowing out between us
To bear you back to star-leaved maples
And with your bright crown of golden locks
You will raise your head and answer me at last:
Why did you turn from my side?


Let me become as the silent trees

I'm singing 'as the silent trees' precisely over 'соком и смолой', and 'соком' easily has space for 'and the'. It's 'become' that's rushed.

"This has the same problem as before, woodLAND pathWAY. Since this ideally rhymes with "lie"... How about "Over woodland pathway a thick mist lies"?"

I still don't hear it, but also, "woodland pathway" is only there for the reference back to the previous verse, and to make it long enough. If we're dropping it I'd go for Over woodland path a silver mist lies.

The leafy fingers weave their web

Yep, that's one's short; not sure why. Um... And the fingered branches weave their green webs?

Lord, is all this world a lie?

Yeah, I've deliberately ignored her flurry of words there in favour of style. I think it resynchs on 'all'.

About to post, but: crosspost!

"though I feel like your version of "for the Oath's sake" is missing syllables" < I am positive it is! Please fix it, I just gave up.

"Was Alqualonde ever burned?"

Well. As far as I know, not explicitly per Tolkien, but... when armies fight in cities, the cities burn. That goes back at least to Troy ("Was this the face that launch'd a thousand ships / And burnt the topless towers of Ilium?"), so it's not unreasonable. Also, Feanor, fire, they kind of go together.

"I get to keep "Untrembling"? Yay!"

Of course! English loves adding prefixes to things. In this case the OED even has a cite for it, going back to 1570 when it was spelt "Vntrembling".

I will see what I can do about either adapting Thingol or reading the Duet later.

hS
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Old 07-20-2020, 09:39 AM   #137
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Captivity

Quote:
Originally Posted by Huinesoron View Post
Coming back to Captivity, have a range of syllables!

The ice of our enchanted bonds - chills
Like Dark[ness/Night] Eternal[/Everlasting]
Like hammer falling on a raised shield
The foe is crushing.


I think that second line either has a beat I'm not seeing in the lyrics, or 'chills' is trying to run over into the first beat of it.
Ok, scanning the Russian beat by beat for the first two lines (which by the way threw me off at first too because I don't think Line #2 follows the conventions of the later stanzas, and I had to revert to the finger count):

ot ZA cha RO va NYH o KOV / HO lod = the ICE of OUR enCHANted BONDS / CHI-ills

ZHYOT (KAK) LYOD (STRA) SHIIIIT kak MRA-A-A-AK = AND (THE) DARK (IS) FRIIIIIIGH-te-NI-I-I-ing (using the old one just for illustration purposes; bracketed syllables would be off-beats if they all didn't fall on their separate beats anyways in the music)

Using that template:
I think that the one that falls most naturally into the music is "LIKE (THE) DARK(NESS) EEEE-ver-LA-a-asting", where "ting" is extra but is easily accommodated by the trilling melody at the end which drags over several notes anyways.

"Crushing" works.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
I get the "years of hardship" stanza now! My only quibble is that it has a "THE oath" in the middle. Can I suggest We followed Oathbound through the Great Ice?
Yay! And yes! I was considering "our Oath" for easier flow, but this is even better.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
I've been a proud king. How upon my death
I shall be known
< Dare I suggest Shall I be known?
Yes, that sounds better.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
Ah, and we come to the Price. So:

He will feel the blame for every death before his eyes

That's pretty good! Could even be He will blame himself for, or alternately, He will feel the shame of.
I like "he will blame himself"! Changing it now. "Shame" works as in "it's such a shame we all have to die this way", but sounds too much like "you should be ashamed of yourself", and I don't think that's a place I wanna go. (Or maybe I'm just overly defensive of Finrod when it comes to shame )

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
I still can't get my head around Finrod's response here, so I shall leave it to you for now.
I feel like I made it more complicated than what it really is. Finrod says: you want me to betray Beren, and you're implying that it would be better for me to give in than suffer more of your torture. But it's not, because the cost of betrayal is my honour, and no torture will be enough to outweigh the value of my unstained honour.

The problem is that he says that out of order. :/

I think as a balancing act I could go with this for now, but it's subject to be revisited, because I'm not sure this does the trick:

A price for which my honour to retain,
Divert defilement from my last possession.
Don't lie to me that you guessed not my name!
Don't lie to me that my cost seems excessive!



Epilogue

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
Perfectly grammatical - knock out the central clause, and you're left with "Why did Tim leave, who brought such lovely cakes?".
I still can't hear it, but I trust you on that one. Besides, I like the way it rhymes now.



Wind

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
"It comes out to woodLAND pathWAY, and blooMING linDENS." - I... don't think it does? I hear a very firm DUST is SWIRLing O-ver WOODland PATHway structure on these lines. Is there a syllable somewhere that's throwing me off?
Oooooh! You have the downbeats hanging! Oh, that makes sense! Never mind on the whole thing. It scans. It was that optional downbeat after "over" that got everything shifted back in my mind. If you want to you could fill it with "the", but now that I know how this is supposed to go it's not even necessary. Sorry for the confusion!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
My whole world is like a house in ruins - I never liked that line anyway. ^_~ Let's see:

My whole world has crumbled into dust
My world crumbles; I cannot avert
My light fades into a meagre spark
I like #1 and #3 more.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
Coming to the key passage now, how does this work:

Hear my words flowing out between us
To bear you back to star-leaved maples
And with your bright crown of golden locks
You will raise your head and answer me at last:
Why did you turn from my side?
I was so far deep into the song that my reflex on reading your first sentence here was to correct the rhythm to "Coming to the passage now, does this work". Oh lord. *shakes head*

You know what? I typed a whole thing about how it scans in my head and all, and then realized that I am again getting fixated on a certain scansion and there is a lovely alternative available that scans perfectly fine. So scrap what I said before, here is the "enlightened" commentary:

The first two lines in your original draft (let my words etc) scan perfectly fine as they are. They just don't do the rapid syllable thing that you return to with "and with your bright crown". In the new draft they also work, but if it's a choice between the drafts I almost like the first one better (now that I can read it as it's meant to be read). If you want them to have the rapid syllable fire, I can supply that. ;-)

As for the "crown" line - I think it sounds good, and "bright" alleviates the stretch on "and".

Sorry again for the confusion! It would be easier if we could actually hear how it's intended to be read (same for the captive Elves, I suppose).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
Let me become as the silent trees

I'm singing 'as the silent trees' precisely over 'соком и смолой', and 'соком' easily has space for 'and the'. It's 'become' that's rushed.
Ah. Then I'm getting: let me BE-come AS the SIlent TREES, with a rapid "let me'. Did I get that right? That would work.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
I still don't hear it, but also, "woodland pathway" is only there for the reference back to the previous verse, and to make it long enough. If we're dropping it I'd go for Over woodland path a silver mist lies.
Same as above - I see it now, scrap the previous comments.

Because it parallels the first verse ("dust is swirling over"), it could even accommodate "the mist lies thick OVER", by the same count and rhythm. It would be more of a tongue twister though, with "lies thick" so close together.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
The leafy fingers weave their web

Yep, that's one's short; not sure why. Um... And the fingered branches weave their green webs?
Yup, that one goes!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
Lord, is all this world a lie?

Yeah, I've deliberately ignored her flurry of words there in favour of style. I think it resynchs on 'all'.
Gotcha.



Camp

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
"though I feel like your version of "for the Oath's sake" is missing syllables" < I am positive it is! Please fix it, I just gave up.
Hmm, how about: "For the Oath's sake I forsook my own home, braving the Sea and bitter Cold"? Or maybe after foregone and forsworn I'm just fixated on archaic-sounding "for-" words. :P

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
"Was Alqualonde ever burned?"

Well. As far as I know, not explicitly per Tolkien, but... when armies fight in cities, the cities burn. That goes back at least to Troy ("Was this the face that launch'd a thousand ships / And burnt the topless towers of Ilium?"), so it's not unreasonable. Also, Feanor, fire, they kind of go together.
Fair. Do you think it goes better as "The haven's ashes", or "Ash of the haven"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
"I get to keep "Untrembling"? Yay!"

Of course! English loves adding prefixes to things. In this case the OED even has a cite for it, going back to 1570 when it was spelt "Vntrembling".
The official stamp of approval. ^.^
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Old 07-21-2020, 02:22 AM   #138
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It's here, it's here... the Last Song is here!

Duet of Thingol and Melian

THINGOL:
Countless years I've lived a joyful life
Far away from all the wars and strife
Doriath amid the forests
With my beloved daughter
And dear wife

But my realm of peace has been disturbed
By this Beren, a 'hero' absurd
He has stolen from our daughter
Taken both her love and honour
What a nerve!

MELIAN:
Oh my husband dear, be not swift to judge
Was our marriage not also called unequal?
Fire and water cannot often touch
But we know that love can be stronger than rules.

THINGOL:
Second-rate are all these Mortal Men
This one would enrage even the dead!
Not a penny to his name
You would think he would feel shame
But see his prideful head!

MELIAN:
Oh my husband dear, many years ago
You were just as proud, with no kingdom nor jewels
Yet your carefree eyes caught me even so
So we know that love can be stronger than rules.

THINGOL:
Now, my darling, I cannot agree
That was clearly an exception, see
I'm immortal under Eru
Why would you compare me
To a Mortal thief?

MELIAN:
Oh my husband dear, you are right, I'm sure
Yet both you and I know of Men but little
Their lives may be short, but their fire endures
Their fate is not low, it is merely diff'rent.

THINGOL:
I was right to send him far from us
With a quest reward his impudence
Ordered him to enter Angband
And from Morgoth's iron crown
Steal a star-jewel!

MELIAN:
Oh my husband dear, oh my husband dear.

THINGOL:
Showed him where to go! Showed him where to go!

MELIAN:
Oh my husband dear, oh my husband dear.

THINGOL:
Showed him where to go! Showed him where to go!
Showed him!
Showed him!
Showed him!
Showed him!


PACK OFF! PACK OFF! PACK OFF!

A-ny-way... trying this out for your double-meaning. Version Two doesn't even have the final shouting, which I didn't realise. Melian gets an 'Oh' on her lines because she has them in 'Oh my king'. The scansion of the last three lines in each Thingol verse is a bit rapid, but I think these fit.

hS
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Old 07-21-2020, 03:20 AM   #139
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The Complete English Libretto

Brief comments response:

Captivity - no arguments from me on any point.

Epilogue - I promise it makes sense.

Wind - I have no idea what I've done with the downbeats, but as long as you're happy... going with the 'dust' reading on the 'ruins' line, and following your advice on the 'maples' stanza.

I think I prefer 'o'er' in the final stanza; I can get 'liesthick Over' to fit, but it's a push. This is a lament, I feel like it's okay for Amarie to slow down a bit. ^_^

Camp - I like the Oath line, and have no problem at all with throwing all the for- words in! Also: that section is the one place I feel Finrod the Goblin King's acting really falls down. He flips modes completely.

I think 'Ash of the Havens' works very well.

And now...

Prison Duet

I think 'trumpet' in the first stanza feels a bit too Christian and not Middle-earth-y enough. It refers back to Finrod hearing horns calling in the woods back in the Renunciation. Can we do I hear the last horn's singing call?

I think I prefer the 'be gone/linger on' ending to this stanza; 'we both know plain' has a bit of a forced-rhyme feel to it.

Agree on 'did wander'.

I would be very sad to lose 'Throne of Day' from the lyrics. I can see why you've dropped it - the Russian is much more consise - but I love the image. How about At Throne of Day?

I can't quite get the 'witness mesmerised' line to scan, but I trust you.

The King/Sing line... how about this?

BEREN: Do you fear death and what's to come?
FINROD: All that is left to me is song!


With 'song' implying 'the Song', as well as 'I literally can't do anything but make up ditties to pass the time'.

The 'dread' passage is really good. One question: is it the duty I could not fulfil, or we, or one? (The subtitles give 'you', which is excessively cruel of Beren.)

'Together stand in cage and s/Song' is a wonderful line.

Your trail in treachery imbued, - this sounds like an accusation against Luthien and Amarie. :O How about:

About your path are foes untrue?

Which directly references the Lay of Leithian, where 'untrue' is how the Nargothrondrim describe Cel'n'Cur.

Suggest Is burning with a flame unseen, unless that really doesn't capture the meaning.

At Throne of Day again. 'What shall I say?' works very well, actually.

I hear the last horn's singing call again.

On the 'two lights' - I think Finrod literally means 'only one of us can live, and I choose you'. That could be made explicit with Of OUR two lights, but might be better with Of THESE two lights to present some ambiguity.

Overall, this is good! It's very much just tweaks I'm making.

hS
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Old 07-21-2020, 05:20 AM   #140
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A preview:



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Old 07-21-2020, 07:41 AM   #141
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Huinesoron View Post
It's here, it's here... the Last Song is here!
Aaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Quote:
Countless years I've lived a joyful life
...
Carefree
I didn't even realize until I saw this how much this parallels Beren's accusation to Finrod. I guess Thingol doesn't use quite the same words as Beren to describe the countless joy in Russian, but still. No wonder Beren is so bitter: "you're just like Thingol!"

Quote:
Doriath amid the forests
With my beloved daughter
And dear wife
Is it a "slow sing" on the second line? I think I got to a scansion that works if Line 2 loses it's flurry.
If you want it to have the flurry back, though, all you have to do is add some syllables to Line 3, "and with my dear wife". Depends on how tongue twisty it sounds.

Quote:
Taken both her love and honour
What a nerve!
Ooooo, ouch. It's not just her fancy on the table anymore. No wonder Thingol is so ****ed off.

Melian is perfect. The rock of ever-calm wisdom.

Quote:
Fire and water cannot often touch
If I am reading it correctly, I am getting FI-re AND wa-TER. What about FIRE and WA-ter COOL (clear? cold?)? --- assuming I read that correctly.

Hahaha Thingol ranting about Beren! Perfect! And another brilliant Melian to follow.

Quote:
So we know that love can be stronger than rules.
I just had a snarky thought about how snarky Melian would be if she outright said "You should know that love etc". But I think her character is a little more neutral and respectful. She doesn't get snarky unfortunately.

Quote:
Their lives may be short, but their fire endures
I like the reference to Truth!

Quote:
Showed him where to go! Showed him where to go!
!

Ha!

Excellent stuff!
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Old 07-21-2020, 08:16 AM   #142
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Camp

-Trumpets: I am pretty sure that Tolkien has some trumpets as well, but I agree that horns are better. Will change in both instances.

-"How shall I stay / At Throne of Day"? If you think that works, I would be very happy to make it so. I was bummed to drop the Throne too.

-Witness mesmerized: I shift a syllable with the "mesmerized"; in Russian, "rized" would belong to the second half of the phrase. But I think it works musically, if you sing it.

-King/Sing: I like your version! Taking it.

-Duty that was not fulfilled: it's only "you" in the general sense - so really "one". Beren is not pointing fingers at Finrod here. He might say it broad enough to include Finrod, however, since the line can really be said by either of them. I think I had Beren say "I" in the end, but can change it to "one". I think I will change it.

- Treachery: yes, that's where a literal translation gets you. :/ Taken.

-Burning: taken.

-Lights: ooh, that's what you think he's getting at! In that case, "these two lights" taken.



Are you making a video with new subtitles?
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Old 07-21-2020, 08:46 AM   #143
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
Is it a "slow sing" on the second line? I think I got to a scansion that works if Line 2 loses it's flurry.
If you want it to have the flurry back, though, all you have to do is add some syllables to Line 3, "and with my dear wife". Depends on how tongue twisty it sounds.
I wasn't trying to. I only noticed the internal rhyme a couple of verses later, so this one was a retrofit. Does the rhyme still fall in the right place with your extended line?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
Ooooo, ouch. It's not just her fancy on the table anymore. No wonder Thingol is so ****ed off.
^_~

Yeah, I needed the rhyme, and it sounds like Comedy Thingol's style of hyperbole. Also, y'know... they hung out in the woods together for months.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
If I am reading it correctly, I am getting FI-re AND wa-TER. What about FIRE and WA-ter COOL (clear? cold?)? --- assuming I read that correctly.
Two-syllable fire was what I had, and I didn't like it. Yours is much better.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
I just had a snarky thought about how snarky Melian would be if she outright said "You should know that love etc". But I think her character is a little more neutral and respectful. She doesn't get snarky unfortunately.
Sadly, yeah; I think this would work for Aria Melian, but not Duet Melian. Her kid hasn't yet run off to go fight the Dark Lord, so she's a bit more mellow.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
Camp-Trumpets: I am pretty sure that Tolkien has some trumpets as well, but I agree that horns are better. Will change in both instances.
He probably does, but "the last trump[et]" is a heavily Christianised term. (Of course, horns calling you to death isn't exactly Tolkien either - both the Valaroma and the horns of Gondor and Rohan are calls to victory - but we work with what we have.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
-Witness mesmerized: I shift a syllable with the "mesmerized"; in Russian, "rized" would belong to the second half of the phrase. But I think it works musically, if you sing it.
Got it. It works.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
Are you making a video with new subtitles?
Weeeeeeeell... yes.

(The subtitle file is downloadable and editable in Notepad, so I can continue to update it. I could also propose it for "English (United Kingdom)" subtitles on the main recording, but I don't know if they'd appreciate it.)

hS
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Old 07-21-2020, 09:36 AM   #144
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I keep having distance meetings with failing technology every time I start typing a post. It's taking me forever to write anything!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Huinesoron View Post
I wasn't trying to. I only noticed the internal rhyme a couple of verses later, so this one was a retrofit. Does the rhyme still fall in the right place with your extended line?
I think it should. You're rhyming "forest" and "daughter", right? If they should match up with "suprugoy / lyubimoy", that still leaves 5 syllables available for the last line. Besides, Thingol's internal rhymes aren't very strong or consistent; f.ex. in his second stanza the "leftover" line after the meh internal rhyme is 6 syllables. You tend to shift the rhymes to later in the line, which works just as well and even better, to be honest. Russian Thingol is not big on the internal rhyming, if it's there it's a bonus.

[quote=Hui]Yeah, I needed the rhyme, and it sounds like Comedy Thingol's style of hyperbole. Also, y'know... they hung out in the woods together for months.

Thingol and Melian hung out in the wood for years, but they will have us believe that they spent the whole time staring into each other's eyes. ^.^

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
He probably does, but "the last trump[et]" is a heavily Christianised term. (Of course, horns calling you to death isn't exactly Tolkien either - both the Valaroma and the horns of Gondor and Rohan are calls to victory - but we work with what we have.)
I didn't recognize the Christian image. I was imagining more something like Boromir's dying horn. But in any case, I like your version of the line better, and it references Finrod's horns calling to battle earlier.

Do you think it will be more Tolkienish with "I hear the last horn's dying call"?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
Weeeeeeeell... yes.
Squeeeee! Now I have to watch it and do a sing-along before my shift starts.
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Old 07-21-2020, 09:58 AM   #145
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
I think it should. You're rhyming "forest" and "daughter", right? If they should match up with "suprugoy / lyubimoy", that still leaves 5 syllables available for the last line. Besides, Thingol's internal rhymes aren't very strong or consistent; f.ex. in his second stanza the "leftover" line after the meh internal rhyme is 6 syllables. You tend to shift the rhymes to later in the line, which works just as well and even better, to be honest. Russian Thingol is not big on the internal rhyming, if it's there it's a bonus.
Great! We'll go with that, then. ^_^

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
Thingol and Melian hung out in the wood for years, but they will have us believe that they spent the whole time staring into each other's eyes. ^.^
"... it was a very long look."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
Do you think it will be more Tolkienish with "I hear the last horn's dying call"?
It might be, actually. I'm not sure; do what you think sounds best?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
Squeeeee! Now I have to watch it and do a sing-along before my shift starts.
Make sure to note all the places it's gone wrong!

hS
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Old 07-21-2020, 10:00 AM   #146
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Came to this on the watch/sing-through:

Quote:
You would think he would feel shame
"You'd think he would feel shame" fits a bit better with the meter.
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Old 07-21-2020, 11:35 AM   #147
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Realization #2: I completely screwed up the melody in Beren's When---in----your---love----I----------rejoiced. I am missing two beats! I have no idea how that happened, I feel like I just forgot how the melody goes.


How do I fix it? "That night when in your love I rejoiced"?



There's a typo in "Taught pride to Elven hearts" (Finrod's Duel)

"Like the Darkness everlasting" (Captivity) appears with a delay.

Also in Captivity, I think it's the only time that Finrod deviates from his "My grief", and I'm thinking it might be better to just let him be consistent. What do you think?



So now my head is filled with a cacophony of Runglish lyrics.
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Old 07-21-2020, 11:38 AM   #148
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Missed this post in a cross-posting!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Huinesoron View Post
"... it was a very long look."


[Edit: Can now confirm that Elvish children are begot by looks - long and hard looks? :P I would say I'm sorry, but I am also so not sorry! :P *runs away*]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
It might be, actually. I'm not sure; do what you think sounds best?
What if he says "singing" the first time, and "dying" on the repeat? Or just "dying" on both. To emphasize the point that the horn is not the herald of death but the dying of life.

Or "fading". But I like "dying".
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Old 07-21-2020, 12:50 PM   #149
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Thanks & agreement throughout. I think 'dying call' on both works best; it evokes the Nirnaeth and "AurŽ entuluva!".

For the delayed line, I'm just going to combine it with the previous line, to save a lot of fuss with timestamps (the subtitles are done to 1/100th of a second, so... yeah).

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Old 07-22-2020, 09:18 AM   #150
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After the 2+ week marathon of Zonging, it feels weird to get up in the morning and have no songs to translate and no major editing to do. Just minor tinkering here and there. It feels a little empty.
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Old 07-22-2020, 09:38 AM   #151
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
After the 2+ week marathon of Zonging, it feels weird to get up in the morning and have no songs to translate and no major editing to do. Just minor tinkering here and there. It feels a little empty.
As for me, I've watched the entire V2 with subtitles (one song at a time over the course of the day), and while there's plenty of points where the lyrics are stuffed with slow beats (mine) or get a bit too Yoda (both of ours), I think it's really good. I love the Aria, both of Galadriel's songs, and Luthien's Duel in particular.

Is it just the one passage at the end of Captivity that's actually different, rather than missing, in V1? If you have your translation for that, at some point I'll put together subtitles for that version too.

I've also reshuffled the Appendices of the Libretto, putting a "What's a Sillymillion?" summary of What Has Gone Before. I've tried not to mention anything that doesn't come up in the musical, which means weird absences like Finwe and Fingolfin, but hopefully it does its job.

Do we also want an equivalent of this (which is what the Russians call the libretto)? If you're looking for translation/adaptation work to do... ^_~

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Old 07-22-2020, 10:08 AM   #152
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Originally Posted by Huinesoron View Post
As for me, I've watched the entire V2 with subtitles (one song at a time over the course of the day), and while there's plenty of points where the lyrics are stuffed with slow beats (mine) or get a bit too Yoda (both of ours), I think it's really good. I love the Aria, both of Galadriel's songs, and Luthien's Duel in particular.
A little bit of Yoda is acceptable in poetry.

I wanna add the Feanorian "Undying Hate" to that list, and Finrod's Duel. They sound so good!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
Is it just the one passage at the end of Captivity that's actually different, rather than missing, in V1? If you have your translation for that, at some point I'll put together subtitles for that version too.
Yes, it's the "honour" passage, which in V1 is the equivalent of the Prison Duet content (in 2 lines). I might do that. And Luthien's V1 not-so-much-bloodzoning to the Feanorians.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
I've also reshuffled the Appendices of the Libretto, putting a "What's a Sillymillion?" summary of What Has Gone Before. I've tried not to mention anything that doesn't come up in the musical, which means weird absences like Finwe and Fingolfin, but hopefully it does its job.
Hey, nice job of summarizing the Sillymillion! Concise and clear.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
Do we also want an equivalent of this (which is what the Russians call the libretto)? If you're looking for translation/adaptation work to do... ^_~
Are you suggesting a move to prose now?
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Old 07-22-2020, 10:17 AM   #153
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An-Entirely-Voluntary-And-Self-Imposed-Prison Duet

I hear the last note's dying call,
I see the long translation sprawl,
And having given it its due
I know no longer what to do.

What did I care for food and sleep?
I thought were deathless rhyme and beat!
Forget the dazzling universe -
All that was left to me was verse.

I am awed
That lies completed all your text.
But "Finrod",
What pastime can replace you next?
What now to rhyme
In my spare time?
Spectator mesmerized of Tolkien-themed music...



Or:

My grief is not that finished are the songs
My grief is that they finished were so quickly.




I am actually very happy and amazed that we made it to the completed product, or a "functional" version of it, to use your words. I think I didn't allow myself to believe it basically until we got to the point with only 1 song left apiece. It still hasn't quite hit home yet. We just translated a whole flipping musical. 0.0
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Old 07-22-2020, 11:15 AM   #154
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Two alternatives to play with for V1 Finrod's Captivity verse. The preceding Sauron stanza included for flow.


[...SAURON:
Not much courage needed to meet dreadful death but once.
Let him face it many times as each companion falls!
He will blame himself for every death before his eyes.
For his bold impertinence this is a worthy price!]

FINROD:
The price to stand before the Throne of Day
And know no more of sorrow and of partings.
I beg you, let me go first on this way
A witness meek of others' oaths foolhardy.

The price to stand before the Throne of Day
And know no more of sorrow and estrangement.
I beg you, let me go first on this way,
A witness of oaths fell and dire payment.




As I was writing this, I think I finally got what you meant with "Who forgave all oaths". Took me long enough.
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Old 07-23-2020, 04:47 AM   #155
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
I hear the last note's dying call,
I see the long translation sprawl,
And having given it its due
I know no longer what to do.

What did I care for food and sleep?
I thought were deathless rhyme and beat!
Forget the dazzling universe -
All that was left to me was verse.

I am awed
That lies completed all your text.
But "Finrod",
What pastime can replace you next?
What now to rhyme
In my spare time?
Spectator mesmerized of Tolkien-themed music...

Or:

My grief is not that finished are the songs
My grief is that they finished were so quickly.

I am actually very happy and amazed that we made it to the completed product, or a "functional" version of it, to use your words. I think I didn't allow myself to believe it basically until we got to the point with only 1 song left apiece. It still hasn't quite hit home yet. We just translated a whole flipping musical. 0.0
So, yesterday I didn't quite Get It; today, having found myself clicking through to the Downs and going "... oh, wait," I do.

So I'm working on subtitling the 2002 Version. ^_^ And finding lines to propose tweaks to. But it's not going to last... I might have to go back to reading books or writing fanfic !

So, tweaks:

What were you thinking, friend
Whose kin I owe my freedom?
What aid can I now lend
Son of the Younger Children?


Both Finrods put huge emphasis on that last line; is it possible to swap the 'children' and 'freedom' lines somehow? I can't work out a way to do it without going full Yoda (What aid can I you lend').

I would fain fulfill the will of another, > 'of her father'.

This thought leads to a tomb > 'This/your thought/plan'? And perhaps 'my tomb'?

If you have loved until > 'had'. Beren is saying 'If you had, then you would'.

(Three guesses as to where my subtitling has reached; first two don't count.)

hS
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Old 07-23-2020, 09:37 AM   #156
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Huinesoron View Post
What were you thinking, friend
Whose kin I owe my freedom?
What aid can I now lend
Son of the Younger Children?


Both Finrods put huge emphasis on that last line; is it possible to swap the 'children' and 'freedom' lines somehow? I can't work out a way to do it without going full Yoda (What aid can I you lend').
There is the first version which I had, something like:
What would you have of me
Son of the Younger People [inaccurate term]
To whom in time of need
I pay with service equal!


There might also be a way to swap without Yoda. Easier said than done, I realize as I'm sitting here for several minutes without progress. Might be easier to redo the freedom line.

What were you thinking, friend,
Son of the Younger Children?
What aid can I now lend
To pay for my gained freedom!


I don't like that last one, it sounds very transactional, and Finrod would never put a "stop" on the debt he owes. But maybe that line can be reworked to make sense.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
I would fain fulfill the will of another, > 'of her father'.
Hmm, okay. I really like how in Russian it emphasizes that it's not Beren's will but he'll do it anyways. But I guess that's not something that translated well anyways.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
This thought leads to a tomb > 'This/your thought/plan'? And perhaps 'my tomb'?
Your/plan all work. I think I like "your thought" but "this plan" better.

I think Finrod means everyone's tomb. He talks about his own chalice later, but here I think he just points out the absurdity of the idea for all involved.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
If you have loved until > 'had'. Beren is saying 'If you had, then you would'.
Thank you, my Lord of Proper Grammar!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
(Three guesses as to where my subtitling has reached; first two don't count.)
The bogs in the Fen of Serech, by the sound of it.
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Old 07-23-2020, 12:36 PM   #157
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So I had this thought that I really wanna hear the Duel of Finrod and Sauron sung properly in English, even if I have to sing for both myself. But "properly" means some form of accompaniment, because singing along with the Russian throws me off. Unfortunately, all my insteuments are in my parent's place in a different city. Then I remembered that I have this basic little music writing program back from my school days. It is extremely slow to work with and plays very robotically, but on the bright side I could have a whole orchestra on there if I wanted to. I have never seen guitar sheet music and have no clue how to write for it aside from just chords, and I figured for now I will limit myself to piano and trumpet, both of which I could play once K have them. But then I realized (again, as I've been through this before) that Sauron's chords are super complex. I can sing his part fine as long as there is no accompaniment, but for some reason I can never get it to match the chords. Finrod's music is slightly less daunting but not much less confusing. So after a failed attempt at figuring out how it's supposed to go, I decided to shift gears and start with the easiest song to out down on music, which is the Duet of Thingol and Melian. So far I just have Thingol's first 2 verses and the start of Melian; the program has some annouing peeves which makes it very slow to work with. But since the music repeats (and in the same key, no less!), I will probably finish it by tomorrow and attempt a recording within a couple days. So stay tuned!
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Old 07-24-2020, 10:51 AM   #158
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We now have a subtitled Version 1

I've also linked both subtitled videos from the top of the Libretto.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
[I]What were you thinking, friend,
Son of the Younger Children?
What aid can I now lend
To pay for my gained freedom!
How about In honour of my freedom or [i]In memory of my freedom[/b]? Or even In gratitude for freedom? Or possible In honour of your kindred, but that's strayed a bit far off track.

For the rest of this post, I've taken 'this plan' and 'had loved', but left 'will of another', since you liked it that way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
So I had this thought that I really wanna hear the Duel of Finrod and Sauron sung properly in English, even if I have to sing for both myself. But "properly" means some form of accompaniment, because singing along with the Russian throws me off. Unfortunately, all my insteuments are in my parent's place in a different city. Then I remembered that I have this basic little music writing program back from my school days. It is extremely slow to work with and plays very robotically, but on the bright side I could have a whole orchestra on there if I wanted to. I have never seen guitar sheet music and have no clue how to write for it aside from just chords, and I figured for now I will limit myself to piano and trumpet, both of which I could play once K have them. But then I realized (again, as I've been through this before) that Sauron's chords are super complex. I can sing his part fine as long as there is no accompaniment, but for some reason I can never get it to match the chords. Finrod's music is slightly less daunting but not much less confusing. So after a failed attempt at figuring out how it's supposed to go, I decided to shift gears and start with the easiest song to out down on music, which is the Duet of Thingol and Melian. So far I just have Thingol's first 2 verses and the start of Melian; the program has some annouing peeves which makes it very slow to work with. But since the music repeats (and in the same key, no less!), I will probably finish it by tomorrow and attempt a recording within a couple days. So stay tuned!
Crikey, are you transcribing the melody by ear? Because it kind of sounds like that's what you're doing.

I... may be able to volunteer as a singer, if you can provide the music. I can also volunteer as compositor, to splice the vocals neatly over the instrumentals. And if it turns out decent and we can work out some visuals (I may have an idea on that score), I can upload the whole song to the YouTubes. Or am I getting ahead of myself here?

hS
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Old 07-24-2020, 01:02 PM   #159
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Huinesoron View Post
Yay! Will watch when I can. I am curious how the words overlap with their style compqred to V2.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
How about In honour of my freedom or [i]In memory of my freedom[/b]? Or even In gratitude for freedom? Or possible In honour of your kindred, but that's strayed a bit far off track.
I like "in gratitude" and "in honour". I agree that kindred is a little too far.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
Crikey, are you transcribing the melody by ear? Because it kind of sounds like that's what you're doing.
Well, trying to. Thingol's is super easy. Sauron's is... well, I guess he and Morgoth didn't just not follow Eru's musical plan for nothing.

I am also trying to make a nice accompaniment, not just bare cords. I am almost finished with Thingol's duet, just have the final stanza and a bit of fiddling to do.

The problem will be in actually recording it, because technical skills are not very developed, right? I was gonna record it on my phone and hope that the mic and recorder qualities won't suck. Do you have other suggestions that would allow for a more elaborate project?
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Old 07-24-2020, 01:43 PM   #160
Huinesoron
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
Yay! Will watch when I can. I am curious how the words overlap with their style compqred to V2.
It scans pretty well. I've only watched it in bits (mostly to check the line attributions), but nothing jumped out as bad.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
I like "in gratitude" and "in honour". I agree that kindred is a little too far.
Any preferences? I lean towards 'honour', because 'gratitude' sounds a bit too much like Beren saved him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
Well, trying to. Thingol's is super easy. Sauron's is... well, I guess he and Morgoth didn't just not follow Eru's musical plan for nothing.

I am also trying to make a nice accompaniment, not just bare cords. I am almost finished with Thingol's duet, just have the final stanza and a bit of fiddling to do.

The problem will be in actually recording it, because technical skills are not very developed, right? I was gonna record it on my phone and hope that the mic and recorder qualities won't suck. Do you have other suggestions that would allow for a more elaborate project?
Oh lawks. I'll be impressed...!

Phone microphones are pretty good nowadays; until work saddled me with a headset my phone was far and away my best recording device. If you wear headphones and just record the vocals, then as long as there's not too much background (computer fans are literally the worst for this), I can probably splice the vocals and music together nicely.

Because, y'know, 'what if we made this more elaborate?' has kind of been the theme of this project...

hS
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