The Silmarillion Survivor

[Anguirel]

Incest? Pah. A bit of cousinage is nothing. The father's side of my family is riddled with it!

Besides, Tolkien's statement of the Elven condemnation of incest (or simply relationships between cousins) is pretty contradictory.

There she was often in the company of the sons of Feanor, her kin; but to none was her heart's love given.

Implies it could have been, does it not? Besides, I feel things came pretty close, particularly with Celegorm, a fellow hunter whom she was searching for eagerly when she strayed into Nan Elmoth.

Then there is Celebrimbor's unrequited love for Galadriel-a cousin and a generation older than him.

Finally-and this one actually occurred-Arwen did indeed "wed to kin so near", indeed, was required to do so by fate to reconcile the bloodlines of the Eldar and Edain. She was Aragorn's great-great-and-the-rest-of-'em-aunt!

I implore that Morgoth not be voted off, incidentally. Remember the viewing figures. A warning again-if Morgoth goes, more than one Valar will fill his power vacuum...it would be a mere short-term victory. Vote for the irritating and pretentious Eonwe!

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Anguirel

I implore that Morgoth not be voted off, incidentally.

If you ask me, our beloved AngMod has been having far too easy a time of it recently. I think that it's time to start making things a little hard for him.

Originally Posted by Ang

Remember the viewing figures.

In my view, a scramble for leadership of the dark forces would make fascinating viewing.

Originally Posted by Ang

A warning again-if Morgoth goes, more than one Valar will fill his power vacuum...it would be a mere short-term victory.

Even better for the audience figures. Evil never permits itself to be led by committee. There can only be one Dark Lord. A showdown between two or more renegade Valar for the top spot would provide even greater entertainment. And, while the candidates were vying for Dark Lordship, the denizens of Beleriand would have even more time to organise their resistance.

[Anguirel]

This is awful! At this rate, the Silmarillion will have a completely happy ending! Prevent this literary banditry!

Must I remind everyone that with no Morgoth, we will have no amusing Curse upon the Children of Hurin?

And Saucie, leadership contests among evil aren't that interesting because all the candidates have similar methods, aims and characters. Dominate and/or destroy the world-that's it.

Now power vacuums on the good side are more interesting, because we know details about the psyche of different candidates and there is real variation. If a leader has to go

--EONWE

then let it be

++TURGON. Then the armies of Gondolin will come to the aid of Men. Maybe.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Anguirel

At this rate, the Silmarillion will have a completely happy ending!

Ah, but it's your job to prevent that happening, Ang. And I don't see why we should make it easy for you.

[Gothmog]

Saucepan Man:

If you ask me, our beloved AngMod has been having far too easy a time of it recently. I think that it's time to start making things a little hard for him.

I've been giving him an hard time from the start, but it has resulted in nothing so far. But now I'm back from a 1 day break and prepared to take up the fight once more

Thou speakest truly wise, the sauciest of panmen... A fight between to rivaling dark forces would be quite spectacular. So let's do like the romans, give the masses blood.

arcticstorm:

I have been trying to treat a symptom without tackeling the sickness.

And this is something I've been trying to explain days ago. There's a risk that, like the hydra, two heads will grow out to replace the one we cut off, but still that will buy us time enough to organize a defence consisting of the free people of ME. Also, the diminished risk of valar and maia falling to the dark side has to be taken into consideration.

Morgoth is the source to all evil powers, it's he who created monsters like dragons and Carcharoth. Maybe we can prevent the creation of some dark creatures? For example, has anyone seen Ancalagon and his fellow winged dragons yet? No!

Therefor, lets stop evil in its path. It will create disorder in the ranks and a battle of the inheritance of the title as the most evil, wretched creature in Arda will begin.

++Morgoth Bauglir

Vote the only possible way! Vote for the foe of the world, all ours enemy nr 1! Vote for Melko!

[Anguirel]

Votes

Sauron-1
Thingol-1
Morgoth-3
Turgon-1

[Lalaith]

So let's do like the romans,

#

well given that Ang is already trying to make like the ancient Egyptians, why not?

[Gothmog]

I'm sorry if I'm being slow here but: exactly what part of the ancient Egyptians doings are we talking about here? Not put 200 layers of bandage on people I guess? Or building those giant triangular, pointed houses with to thick walls and to few windows?

[Lalaith]

The part where they married their siblings...(I'm just teasing him btw, I know it's not the same thing)

[Anguirel]

I believe Lalaith takes issue with my flawless defence of Elves canonically marrying cousins...and hence refers you to the Ptolemies (who were in fact, of course, Greek...no hard feelings Lalaith)

[Lalaith]

No hard feelings at all, sweetie...especially as the Ptolemies were in their marriage customs merely adhering to old Egyptian customs...Rameses II for example married his sister and three of his daughters.

But this is all becoming not only most unedifying but also dangerously off topic.

[Anguirel]

Alright. I admit defeat! Now let's get on with the serious work of ejecting Turgon instead of poor maligned Morgy.

[Lalaith]

Of course...

...but there is the small problem of you having already voted to evict Eonwe....

[Anguirel]

Originally Posted by Anguirel

This is awful! At this rate, the Silmarillion will have a completely happy ending! Prevent this literary banditry!

Must I remind everyone that with no Morgoth, we will have no amusing Curse upon the Children of Hurin?

And Saucie, leadership contests among evil aren't that interesting because all the candidates have similar methods, aims and characters. Dominate and/or destroy the world-that's it.

Now power vacuums on the good side are more interesting, because we know details about the psyche of different candidates and there is real variation. If a leader has to go

--EONWE

then let it be

++TURGON. Then the armies of Gondolin will come to the aid of Men. Maybe.

As you can see, I repented...

EDIT: I added the vote in an edit, so you could easily not have seen it...

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Anguirel

Now let's get on with the serious work of ejecting Turgon instead of poor maligned Morgy.

The real question here is whether we are bound by the fate decreed by the AngMod, or whether we, as viewers and voters, have free will ...

[Anguirel]

Free will? Tchah! What a ludicrous notion!

Actually, I think the phantom has his way far more often than I do. He's scarcely backed a candidate that hasn't been evicted...he operates after nightfall and sways the masses...

[Lalaith]

No I didn't see it.
Hmmm....everybody was being so convincing about Morgoth - but Ang you're right about the curse, I don't want to go without my Narn three-hankie moment.

I'm now wondering if the Turgon eviction shouldn't wait until *after* he turns his back on Hurin. That would be a fitting punishment and then he could mope about the halls of Mandos thinking for ever more about what a wretched ingrate he was.
What do you think?

[Lord Melkor]

Since the Dark Lord Himself is now under attack I have no alternative but to change my vote and call for the removal of Turgon. I mean, sure, a new Dark Lord may arise, but who has the style, the panache, the 'je-ne-sais-quoi?' of Melkor, first and foremost of all the Valar? And who, pray tell, has the personality and intelligence to replace him?

Varda: If I recall correctly she is jockeying for Manwe's position. Boring personality.

Yavanna: Too busy tending her precious trees, besides, being the Dark Lady would entail ruining all life. Obviously unsuitable.

Aule: Hmmm, interesting and the best choice (though still a far cry from Melkor). Still, he doesn't have Melkor's flair, though it would be funny if the Dwarves would follow their Maker and start fighting for the bad guys. I reckon Sauron would have no problems adapting to Aule's lordship and good old Curumo can come into his own as well. Still, Aule lacks the single thing that all Dark Lords should have: Style and class. I also reckon he is not nearly as smart as Melkor.

Tulkas: Too stupid.

Ulmo: Too non-descript.

Mandos: Mandos actively promoting his Doom? How amusing, but once again I say this candidate is too non-descript.

Nienna: Crybaby, therefore unsuitable for the position.

Orome: Too non-descript.

Face it people, the Valar are a bunch of weakwilled personalities, with Melkor being the one glorious exception. I'd say stick with him and allow him to stir things up so the game stays interesting. Remove him and before we know it we'll be reading about happy elves dancing around a tree. Boooooring! Melkor's keeps the game alive.

Furthermore, removing Melkor will only temporarily alleviate the attacks upon the Edain. Once a new Dark Lord has arisen the attacks will pick up again with new vigor, rendering Melkor's removal pointless and ensuring the failure of todays' task. No, in order to protect the humans we must mobilize all forces in Beleriand, making it imperative that all isolationists are removed. Therefore, my vote is changed to:

-- Thingol, ++ Turgon

[Anguirel]

Votes

Sauron-1
Morgoth-3
Turgon-2

Lalaith, if we get Turgon now we'll have Queen Idril...

[The Saucepan Man]

So let me get this straight. The proposition (promulgated by our supposedly unbiased moderator) is that we prevent the ravaging of the lands of Men by evicting one of those in a position to defend them ...

Hmm, interesting logic.

Originally Posted by Lord Melkor

And who, pray tell, has the personality and intelligence to replace him?

Mandos seems to be a great candidate to me. How can we tell if he's "too non-descript"? He's not been given an opportunity to shine thanks to the ease with which the Noldor were allowed to leave Aman. I think that he would make a superb Dark Lord. His gratuitous curse as the Noldor left showed his potential. And, as a Dark Lord, his curses would spice things up no end. Curses are a speciality of Mandos, whereas they are more of a side-line with Morgoth. So you see, Lal, we need not miss out on the curse of Hurin and his kin at all if Mandos replaces Morgoth.

[Lalaith]

The real question here is whether we are bound by the fate decreed by the AngMod, or whether we, as viewers and voters, have free will

Alas, Saucie, tis true. With apologies to Webster, we are merely AngMod's tennis-balls, struck and bandied which way pleases him.

On the other hand, the temptation to boot out Turgon is strong, and it was my idea originally so I don't feel too much of a tennis-ball by voting
++TURGON May he remember the Fen of Serech until it burns into his self-serving heart.

[Gothmog]

Oh, I feel this is going the usual way, which means not my way... Don't you see how easy that mod is manipulating you? You even think it's your own idea! There's a man worthy of replacing Sauron after a new Dark Lord has claimed the throne (if that'll be the case).

Lalaith:

we are merely AngMod's tennis-balls, struck and bandied which way pleases him.

So true! So why don't you break free from the chains he's created for you?

By his sweet (but poisonous, believe me) words and pulling of strings, he'll put an end to all of ME with Melkor ruling as supreme king with Curufin at his right hand!

No, people, wake up and realize what your doing! Voting for Turgon, one of the great elven kings, one of those with armies great enough to challenge the host of Angband. Too long did he hide in his city, I'm not going to deny that, but when he finally came, he did it in the right time. Nirnaeth Arnoediad, tears unnumbered, was a catastrophy but what if Turgon hadn't showed up? What had been left of elven, man or dwarfen kind then?

Gondolin was one of the few safe harbours in an ocean of darkness and fear, a city that couldn't fall without betrayal from within. Is it the creator of that city you want to chuck out to stop the ravaging? I wonder what your thinking.

You've got the chance to stop the power behind the evil, but you won't take it? I promise you AngMod will make sure this doesn't turn in to fairytale were all are happy whatever the votes will be. And who doesn't want to see the dark side of the Valar? 'Cause the dark side is strong...

In what way is Idril better at stopping the ravaging than her father? And to stop it is the task we've been given.

No hard feeling, Ang

[Anguirel]

Originally Posted by Gothmog

Oh, I feel this is going the usual way, which means not my way... Don't you see how easy that mod is manipulating you? You even think it's your own idea! There's a man worthy of replacing Sauron after a new Dark Lord has claimed the throne (if that'll be the case).

Lalaith:

So true! So why don't you break free from the chains he's created for you?

By his sweet (but poisonous, believe me) words and pulling of strings, he'll put an end to all of ME with Melkor ruling as supreme king with Curufin at his right hand!

My plan revealed! But you forgot a few things. Such as Maeglin happily married to Idril and King of Gondolin; Celegorm married to Luthien...Maglor, Daeron and Salgant forming a band...

Originally Posted by Gothmog

No, people, wake up and realize what your doing! Voting for Turgon, one of the great elven kings, one of those with armies great enough to challenge the host of Angband. Too long did he hide in his city, I'm not going to deny that, but when he finally came, he did it in the right time. Nirnaeth Arnoediad, tears unnumbered, was a catastrophy but what if Turgon hadn't showed up? What had been left of elven, man or dwarfen kind then?

Gondolin and her armies can exist without Turgon. We don't hear of Turgon doing anything in the Nirnaeth except turning up and running away leaving the humans to die. Maeglin, on the other hand, "proved fell and fearless in battle"-obviously a superior general, equipped, though I say it myself, with the most powerful sword in Middle-earth...

Originally Posted by Gothmog

In what way is Idril better at stopping the ravaging than her father? And to stop it is the task we've been given.

No hard feeling, Ang

Ooo! Get him, Lalaith!

And Gothmog, I am far from offended. That was one of the most flattering posts I've ever read, in fact...

VOTES

Sauron-1
Morgoth-3
Turgon-3

[Gothmog]

Yeee, and I tried my best to offend you Ang And I see I made it into an other sig. Oh joy!

Ooo! Get him, Lalaith!

Don't get me wrong here! I've already once (wrongfullly) been accused of neglecting and critize the women. I didn't mean anything negative about Idril, I'm sure she'd be fine, but so is Turgon. Please don't come after me Lalaith, I beg you. Pleeeaaase!

[Lalaith]

Ooo! Get him, Lalaith

Excuse me? My name is Lalaith, not Lassie. Being treated like a tennis-ball is one thing, but a dog....

Don't worry Gothmog honey, you're quite safe with me.

It's just that I have a particular and long-standing grievance with Turgon. He is happy to accept an extraordinary sacrifice from probably the noblest being that ever walked Middle Earth, namely Hurin Thalion, and then turns his back on him in his hour of need. I have been waiting for a long time to exact some kind of vengeance. I'm doing this for Hurin. You know it makes sense.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Lalaith

He is happy to accept an extraordinary sacrifice from probably the noblest being that ever walked Middle Earth, namely Hurin Thalion, and then turns his back on him in his hour of need. I have been waiting for a long time to exact some kind of vengeance.

I don't disagree with you on this Lalaith. I have always considered Turgon's behaviour in this regard to be most discreditable.

But surely the time to punish him is when he has actually done the deed which you are seeking to punish him for. I will gladly join your crusade then.

I will also gladly join any crusade which runs contrary to Ang's stated (and, to the extent discernable, unstated) agenda. Like a latter-day Turin, I will fight to Master the Doom which Ang-Morgoth seeks to impose on us (notwithstanding that I am no doubt fated to be thwarted at every turn ).

[Gothmog]

Lalaith, I see what you mean too, but as SpM said; now is not the time. Hurin Thalion is indeed one of the most noble and one I've always favoured. But we must look at todays task, and we don't benefit from voting for Turgon now. He'll get his punishment in the end. If we don't look to it, I'm sure the newly renamed Ang-Morgoth will.

And to you SpM: Hail thee who walks the narrow road with me! Hail thee fellow crusader! One of my goals with this game is to eliminate Ang's little favourit pet-elf Curufin, but the road there is both long and hard, filled with the dangers of a revengeful moderator...

[The 1,000 Reader]

My vote stands alone.

Listen, wise people, if you can't decide who to send off, why not send off someone who won't be important either way? Sauron barely did anything under Morgoth's rule, he sent his army one by one to their death and then he was easily defeated by a dog. Huan was not a Maia, Huan may have been great, but he was far from a Maia.

It's a win-win situation. If Sauron goes, one less villain. If Sauron goes, Morgoth will fill Sauron's position with one of his Balrogs. Durin's Bane, anyone?

Send off Sauron, spirits of the Barrow-Downs.

[Anguirel]

Saucie, you can ruin all my hopes and dreams, but don't touch the rock band. Sorrowful Harpers will go straight to the top of the charts...

Now is the time, you see, after all, to be rid of Turgon. With the armies of Gondolin released early, Idril, Glorfindel, Ecthelion and possibly Maeglin will lead them into the Bragollach. Such a force may be able to turn the tide of battle and maintain the Siege of Angband, or at least bring about a draw and save the lands of Men. Besides, with so many Balrog-slayers deployed, Gothmog himself may be struck down, avenging Feanor...

Let the vacillitating, authoritarian selfish lump of tapioca that is Turgon return to his beloved Ulmo, and perhaps the Elves under his undeserving rule will show their mettle. Gondolin will also serve as a refuge for human women and children. If an Elven army could get back there after the Nirnaeth undetected, why should the watchful Elves not be able to guide refugees out of danger?

Should the Outlaws of Dorthonion be forced to fight their lonely resistance, the aid of Gondolin will be incomparable help. And the only thing in the way is Turgon. Turgon the Cautious. Turgon the Stubborn. Turgon the Obtuse.

Turgon the Traitor.

[Alcarillo]

++Turgon

Hopefully Maeglin or Idril (whichever is heir) will have friendlier policies towards foreigners and actually help win a battle or two, instead of waiting for hundreds of years until the last minute and losing the battle anyways.

And, Lalaith, what you quoted me as saying earlier was actually spoken by Arcticstorm. I do believe that Idril will have an affair with Tuor.

[Celuien]

Originally Posted by Anguirel

Now is the time, you see, after all, to be rid of Turgon. With the armies of Gondolin released early, Idril, Glorfindel, Ecthelion and possibly Maeglin will lead them into the Bragollach. Such a force may be able to turn the tide of battle and maintain the Siege of Angband, or at least bring about a draw and save the lands of Men. Besides, with so many Balrog-slayers deployed, Gothmog himself may be struck down, avenging Feanor...

Let the vacillitating, authoritarian selfish lump of tapioca that is Turgon return to his beloved Ulmo, and perhaps the Elves under his undeserving rule will show their mettle. Gondolin will also serve as a refuge for human women and children. If an Elven army could get back there after the Nirnaeth undetected, why should the watchful Elves not be able to guide refugees out of danger?

Should the Outlaws of Dorthonion be forced to fight their lonely resistance, the aid of Gondolin will be incomparable help. And the only thing in the way is Turgon. Turgon the Cautious. Turgon the Stubborn. Turgon the Obtuse.

Turgon the Traitor.

Fascinating argument. I want to see how this works.

++TURGON

But, fair warning, I'm going for Morgoth or Mandos as soon as I can.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Celuin

I want to see how this works.

Er - probably exactly the way that Anguirel stated it ...

Pardon me for trying to inject a spark of controversy into this thread but doesn't this all become rather, um, predictable if we vote exactly the way that the AngMod wants us to every day ...

Originally Posted by Celuin

But, fair warning, I'm going for Morgoth or Mandos as soon as I can.

You may not get another crack at Morgoth - at least for a while.

[Celuien]

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

Er - probably exactly the way that Anguirel stated it ...

Pardon me for trying to inject a spark of controversy into this thread but doesn't this all become rather, um, predictable if we vote exactly the way that the AngMod wants us to every day ...

You may not get another crack at Morgoth - at least for a while.

I'm thinking downstream, with the Idril as ruler of Gondolin and Maeglin vs Tuor.

I'm willing to wait on Morgoth. Really, I'd like to get rid of the Doom of Mandos first and see if we can't get the Eldar and Edain to unite and defeat him on their own since it appears that uncanonical events are permitted.

[Anguirel]

Votes

Sauron-1
Morgoth-3
Turgon-5

Turgon, thou hast fallen! Voting closed. Results up soon.

[Gothmog]

You know, I haven't been on winning side one single time so far. Maybe I'll vote with Ang next time? On second thought NO, I'll make this the task of my life, DOWN WITH THE MOD!

[Anguirel]

RESULTS OF DAY THREE (M-e)

One afternoon, Turgon happened to be strolling on the ramparts of Gondolin with Glorfindel and Ecthelion.

They described his fall in awed tones. "He just...sort of slipped...it was dreadful..."

Both happened to be anti-isolationism.

Later on, two riders were admitted-the lost Lady Aredhel, and an unknown, tall, handsome Sinda, whose face was her very image...and yet not...

They were followed by another mounted Sinda-Eol, the Dark Elf. He demanded the return of his wife and son. The new Queen Idril claimed them as her King, and him also. He insisted on returning with them. A compromise was reached by Idril's wisdom. Eol returned to Nan Elmoth, Aredhel remained at Gondolin; and Maeglin went between them, spending half a year at each; and while at Gondolin, proved a shrewd adviser...

~~~

RESULTS OF THE CHALLENGE

Now Morgoth's army presented itself, the largest that had yet been gathered. Sauron commanded the left wing, Gothmog the right; Eonwe and Curunir held the centre. Its vast power's greatest element was the fire of Glaurung; and as no Dwarves had come to the battle, it was nigh on impossible to resist.

In that fell hour were slain Aegnor and Amras, last of the expendable princes of the Noldor, to the Dragon's might; and it seemed that the host of the Noldor must break. Finrod was caught in a circle of foes, though rescued by Barahir's folk at great cost.

But a few warriors of Gondolin-three, in fact-had crept unnoticed to join the battle in the train of Fingon. Idril, Ecthelion, and Maeglin they were. And they caused some bitterness in Morgoth's triumph.

For Idril struck down Curunir the Subtle, and his spirit was dispersed. And Ecthelion in the midst of combat sought out Gothmog, with his Troll-guard occupied with the sons of Feanor, avenging their brother, and Ecthelion pierced the foul captain's heart, though he himself was immolated in its ruin. As for Maeglin, he drew his sword of star-metal Anguirel and set upon Glaurung.

Long was their struggle, inconclusive its end. Maeglin was sore wounded by fire, and was carried out of the fray by Idril; but the dragon Glaurung, afraid and hurt, retreated from the battle.

But still the numbers of Morgoth prevailed; and the Elves retreated, their lands, and those of Dorthonion, in ruins. Fingolfin defied Morgoth, and fought with him to the last; but he was conquered, and with no Eagles about his body was despoiled. Finarfin was shot down as he fled...

Dor-Lomin and Brethil had been saved, but of Dorthonion only outlaws remained, the houseless women and children being spirited into Gondolin or sent to Dor-Lomin or Brethil.

The contestants:

Tribes

VALAR

Elbereth
Ulmo
Mandos, Doom of

NOLDOR

Maedhros
Maglor
Celegorm
Celebrimbor
Caranthir
Curufin
Fingon
Idril
Aredhel
Maeglin
Finrod
Orodreth

TELERI/SINDAR

Olwe
Thingol
Celeborn
Galadriel
Mablung
Beleg
Daeron
Eol

MAIA/ELF

Luthien

MAIA

Melian
Uinen
Huan
Tilion (with Moon)
Arien (with Sun)

DWARVES

Azaghal of Belegost
Telchar of Nogrod
Mim the Petty-dwarf
Khim
Ibun

MEN

Barahir
Beren
Hador
Galdor
Halmir
Haldir

FORCES OF EVIL

Morgoth
Sauron
Eonwe
Draugluin
Glaurung

It's Day Four in Middle-earth. The fourth task is: MESALLIANCE. Without ejecting Beren or Luthien, make their marriage as difficult as possible to achieve.

EDIT: Decided not to kill Eonwe. Seemed like overdoing it...

[Lalaith]

Lovely write-up.

But oh, you wicked AngMod. The best way I can see to achieve the challenge is to evict Melian, but what ghastly can of worms will that open up?

[Lalaith]

Oh and of course my humble and abject apologies to Alcarillo for such careless confusion.

[Celuien]

Originally Posted by Anguirel

It's Day Four in Middle-earth. The fourth task is: MESALLIANCE. Without ejecting Beren or Luthien, make their marriage as difficult as possible to achieve.

Cruel, cruel Ang-mod. What did Beren and Luthien ever do to you?

It might make things more difficult if Morgoth goes. I'm assuming that Beren still has to get the Silmarils or accomplish some sort of task to marry her. If Morgoth takes them to the Void those Silmarils would be pretty hard to find. Or, if the sons of Feanor reclaim them, he might not have a task at all and could just be sent home by ole Thingy.

Beren: Please, can I marry your daughter?
Thingy: Prove your worth.
Beren: Name the task. I shall be victorious.
Thingy: Can't think of a thing for you to do. Sorry, go away.

[Anguirel]

I reassure you (sort of) that whatever you do, you will probably not succeed in stopping the marriage of Beren and Luthien. I do realise that my Celegorm/Luthien wish is pretty unfeasible, and Beren and Luthien (unless you're especially ingenious!) will end up together.

You can't have the Silmarillion without the Silmarils, so if Morgoth were to be evicted, they would not follow him. I have a fate planned for them actually in such a case, but let's keep it a surprise...