Linguistic divergence in Elvish

[Lost One]

Tolkien reated his two wonderful Elvish languages, and proto-Elvish from which thewy could both have derived. However, he had to accountfor the divergence of this original Elvish into these two quite different tongues. He did this through means of a long separation of part of the Teleri (the Sindar) from the other kindreds. To me this has never seemed convincing. Languages certainly evolve of course, among humans at least, and this can hapen quite quickly (in only 400 years Anglo-Saxon tured into comprehensible modern English), but why should such change have occurred among immortal elves? Many of the Teleri who remained in Beleriand were close friends and relatives of those who went to Aman. Yet, supposedly, Elwe (Thingol) and his brother Olwe would have ended up speaking different languages. I know, of course, that this situation arose because Tolkien's languages came first, and he had to account for their divergence when he came to create his 'mythology'. Yet, can this be properly rationalised in the context of Middle-earth, beyond simply saying: well it happened?

[Scott]

Hello Lost One, and welcome to the Downs, if it hasn't already been said.
While your question is certainly a valid one, your answer lies really only in observing how languages evolve in the first place. From what I can gather, languages tend to evolve most often due to slang usage, due to outside innterractions (with other languages and peoples), and due to the speaker's environments.
You brought up the fact that since elves were immortal, their language shouldn't differ. If you look just at the different vernacular that has passed through the lips of American tongues within the last say fifty years, there are a plethora of slight differences and incongruities among what's said, even by those people who have lived that whole time. for example, the term groovy was one of my father's favorites, but almost noone uses that term on a regular basis today. Although I'm not suggesting that the elves would have used words sch as groovy, hip, or cool, I don't think it's hard to say that it was possible for them to have popular colloquial sayings that changeed from time to time.
You also mentioned that the divergences have a bit to do with the separation of the different groups of the elves. While separated into their different areas in Arda, the elves came into contact with other races and peoples of different languages than their own. The interraction of elves with men, dwarves, etc. could have perhaps caused shifts in the languages, if not even additions. For an example in our own world, French phrases such as trés chic can be found in most good English dictionaries.
The environments that the different groups of elves were in would also have an effect on their languages. Elves such as the Teleri would need words that would suit best their maritime environment whereas Sindarin elves would be more likely to form expressions of their woodland environmnets.
I hope my reply wasn't too wordy, or drawn out and that it helped answer at least some of your questions. And please, feel free to criticize it; I'm no philologist or etymologist, only a student.

~Scott

[Sharkû]

I recommend you the short essay Dangweth Pengoloð in History of Middle-earth XII, which gives the fullest answer to precisely that question. It's a short read.

[Earendilyon]

While I recognise the validity of Scott's arguments, I have still some remarks.
Elves are ofcourse not contemporary humans, let alone Americans.
I think that even human languages changed much slower in earlier ages than in the past, say, 50 years. This last half century has seen so much changes and so much more global interaction, that most languages have changed much.
Elves on the other hand had (it is often stated) an incredible capacity of memory. They could remember things of thousands of years before, and they could even recall it like a movie in their mind. So, with that capacity, wouldn't they keep their language(s) as it was (they were)? Ofcourse, they loved language and they made new words for new things, but that would not change the words for the known things. So, the language would be enriched by new words, but wouldn't change that much in character.

*takes mental note to read that part of HoME XII some time*

[ October 27, 2003: Message edited by: Earendilyon ]

[Gilbo]

I think that I agree with Scott on this. Their language suited the diferences in their environment, and in their work. I read somewhere that the Aleuts have an unusual number of words for snow. I believe that it was 23, but I can't recall for sure. My Gran was Irish. She had more ways to say Intoxicated than you could shake a stick at. It depended on the degree of intoxication and wether she liked the person, or not. You could be looped, snockered, fizzled, blotto,drunk, dead drunk, knee-walking drunk, toilet-hugging drunk, p*ssed, tipsy, tinkly, babboon-faced, sh*tfaced, monkey drunk, 1,2,or 3 sheets to the wind, freight train drunk, sidelined, or under a full head of steam. There were others. My Lutheran aunt had two. "You've been drinking!" and "You're drunk!"
Also, unless the Elves behaved like the damnable French, improper usage, slang, and foreign words WILL slip in to the language, no matter how far your memory stretches. I remember , in my lifetime, when one was ORIENTED at orientation. Now , everyone insists that they have been orienTATED. Same with commentaters CommentATING. Substandard and non-traditional usages eventually become part of the spoken language, and sometimes, the written. [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img]
I think that the Noldor would eventually have developped a language full of references to manufacturing and seige and war, with ways to describe the nuances which would be peculiar to that race only. Especially since they would most want to be rid of any vestiges of "slavery" to the Valar. [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img]