Were Men never truly evil?

[Cazoz]

The things that Tolkien sees as truly evil are generally born that way, and with a power greater than them holding sway over their behaviour.

For example, orcs are born evil we're to assume and they defile nature and stuff, simply for kicks. The same could be said about Dragons and Balrogs, as they were guided by Morgoth the whole time.

My question is; this never happened to Men. The creatures above were conceived by evil thought and evil measures whereas Men never were, and it seems that perhaps out of loyalty, Tolkien always gave him own race some sort of excuse or redemption.

Ar-Pharazon for example, cannot be called evil. Although the anti-West sentiment was already abound in Numenor, it never previously reached the extremities seen in his reign. And why? Because Sauron deceived him and brainwashed him. Thus? Not his fault really, he's more seen as a tragic hero, one valiant but yet not immune to the evil of Sauron.

Other slighter examples of this could be Denethor, for example. Not an evil man, merely stubborn and uncooperative and unwelcoming, at first read most people will take a dislike to his character, having built up a favourable stance on Faramir. However, once his desperation and dependence on the palantir are revealed, it is again a bittersweet situation where the dislikeable becomes a sad story.

Even the Easterlings and Haradrim are forgiven and pardoned because it is generally seen that they would have been no danger or threat without Sauron, and that it was only by his will that they had participated in the War of the Ring. Possibly not true, but again Tolkien explicitly goes out of his way to imply that Men can never fully be blamed for their bad deeds, that there is always a Morgoth, Sauron or Saruman cracking the whip behind them, and that they know not what they do. Hmm. I cannot think of a truly evil man who was evil of his own devices from Tolkien's work. Come to think of it, this is true for Elves and Dwarves as well, but it is with Men that I have noticed Tolkien's tendency to make fallen Men heroes in some way. Another prime example is that I didn't like Boromir on first reading the book, until his death. I didn't yet understand the power of the Ring and how it corrupted minds. So I thought Boromir was simply a bad Man. And I presume most first-time readers have feelings similar to this, and then when they read more, they realise Boromir was in fact, a great man and hey, nobody's perfect. And thus even though he has attempted to do a terrible thing, as a Man Tolkien has nicely brought us round to a favourable opinion of him.

Has anyone else noticed this bias? I'm not saying it's a bad thing (being of that race!) but I was simply thinking about it last night, and the trend sort of hit me. I don't even know what I'm asking here, I just wanted to post about it and see what you guys thought!

[The Saucepan Man]

That's a very good question indeed.

My take on it is that JRRT wanted to depict the humans in ME as akin to humans in our society. Not inherently evil, but more open to corruption to evil ways, maybe, than the other races of ME. In our society, there are very few (if any) who might be said to be truly evil. They are generally victims of their circumstances. For example, most crime in our society is the result of poverty or social exclusion.

And this, I think, is the way of the humans in ME. They are corruptible by the truly evil (non-human) characters that we are presented with, by the promise of that which they most desire, whether it be power or perhaps more worthy goals.

Boromir is a fine example. A noble man brought low by the corrupting influence of the Ring working on his lofty desire to defend his people. Wormtongue's corruption by Saruman is brought about by his desire for Eowyn and also his desire to rise above his fellows.

The Dunlendings are also a good example. Not evil people. But Saruman was able to use their grievances against the Rohirrim to his own ends.

So yes, I agree, I cannot think of an example of a human character or "nation" that is portrayed by JRRT as inherently evil, although I stand to be corrected. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Lady Of Light]

I feel that your comparison of men to orcs and dragons and balrogs is quite unfair. Men were not born evil, it is just the nature of the race to turn towards evil occasionally. All of the races go a little evil at one point or another ('cept maybe dwarves, but I'm biased there!) Even elves had their blunders. When they had that nasty little kinslaying affair, they were not branded as evil. Nor when Feanor sorta messed everything up were they evil. Elves are not by nature bad, and that goes the same for men.

Tolkien wasn't making excuses for men, that was how they were created. They are mortals, and tend to get their priorities mixed up, that's all. Perhaps that they are the "second batch" of the children of Eru had something to do with it. The other fell creatures (listed above) were not created by Eru, and maybe that had some influence. It is therefore unfair to compare creatures born of evil to those who are not, if a little flawed.

We also happen to come in on a rather bad time for men. With all the evil and corruption going on, can it be helped if there are some less-than-noble deeds? Notice that all of the mens' evil stems back to the corrupting power of Sauron. It is not they who are evil, they are just prone to fall for it.

[Cazoz]

It is therefore unfair to compare creatures born of evil to those who are not, if a little flawed.

I don't think you've quite got the gist of what I posted. I was in no way comparing Men to those fell creatures, I was using them as examples of races which were truly evil (i.e. born evil) as opposed to Men who weren't. And yet both did ill deeds on their time on Middle Earth.

My question/statement was concerning Men and how Tolkien never had truly evil, only corrupted Men. You may be correct regarding your Children theory however, I cannot think of anything to refute that.

Do we think this was a purposeful continuity of Tolkien's, or it simply worked out that Men were the weakest in mind and thus the most frequently corrupted by those stronger in mind and cunning?

After finally reading The Silmarillion this past summer, here's my opinion: Men were supposed to have been created as the favored children of the Grand-High-Poobah-Who-Came-First-And-Whose-Name-I-Have-Sadly-Forgotten. That sounds like the makings of a race of somewhat spoiled brats who think they are the be-all-and-end-all. As can be seen from the example of Isildur of Sauron-killing fame, as well as many modern-day political figures, men (and I do mean [B)men[/B]) can become corrupted or evil too easily when a whole cartload of power is dumped into their laps. In short, men aren't inherently evil, they were just created with too much potential to go down that road. I mean, look at the nazgul! They were probably great guys and at least half-decent kings before Sauron or whoever it was started handing out those darned rings!

[Inderjit Sanghera]

All men were 'fallen'(being against Eru's original plan for them) and they were also born in M-E, which was tarnished by Morgoth, who had spread his power and defiled the earth. Men had free will,but they were also the most corrupted of all races, as a result, and Tolkien notes htat men needed Sauron and Morogth as it joined them togtether in a fight against a single incarnate form of evil.As Tolkien shows in 'A new shadow' men can easily be swayed and bored.

[Eruantalon]

I think he was just trying t creat a realistic world.The people through out history have always fall en victum to these things.

Solamans lust for riches and woman.A man who is supposed to be the wisest man in history.

Moses striking the rock in the wilderness twice for water when god said do it only once.Becuse he got scared of getting stoned.


Not only the Bible but look at orther great men in history.Tolkien was a devote christian,and historian right.Just look at history and the bible.It filled with people who fall under bad infulences.But they are not evil.Men are not an evil thing.


But becuse you have free will you can turn to it if you want.Those who chose not to can find happyness. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[Eru]

But becuse you have free will you can turn to it if you want.Those who chose not to can find happyness.

they CAN find hapiness, but sometimes they you don't. some people are happy being under bad influences. the Mouth of Sauron, for example. was he not originally a man? he wasn't born evil...

ok, i get what you are saying. men aren't BORN evil. no, i don't believe they are, because Eru gave to them strange gifts. one being of free will. well, the elves had that, but not as much so.

i recall reading a passage somewhere concerning why men are ever swayed to one side or another. some thing to do with being but a short time on earth.

yeah, well, just my opion.

[Lalaith]

Has anybody read something Tolkien wrote about the very early years at Hildorien? I've read some discussions about this elsewhere on the net but I haven't seen any original texts to back it. It would seem Morgoth swayed the races of men at Hildorien to his will but some (the Edain, the tribes of Ulfang and Bor, the Druedain) subsequently rebelled against Morgoth's rule and fled.
I'd like to know more, though. Can anyone elaborate.

[Inderjit Sanghera]

" Of Dwarves and Men" -HoME 12
" Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth"-HoME 10 are the best sources about early man to my knowledge.

[Lalaith]

Thanks!

[Eldar14]

When Ilu created the men, he is depicted as sad, as if he doesn't really want to bring men upon his great creation. When Melkor first started to twist the music, botht the elves and men were attempts to stop him, and I think that elves were the kind of pacifist attempt at stopping Melkor, destroy his evil by making the beauty and greatness of the music stronger. But when that failed, he created the men, the offensive approach, with their baying of trumpets would destroy much of the beauty, and even be turned to evil themselves (which may have been part of the plan), but be so offensive that they would overwhelm the dissonance and evil. Also, Ilu told Melkor that all of his attempts to destroy the music ended up going towards the greater beauty (such as snow), so maybe he created men with the intention of them being turned to evil, just to show Melkor that no matter what he corrupts and twists, it won't destroy the beauty of the music.

[Eru]

actually, in the third theme "his countenance was stern; and he lifted his right hand, and behold! a third theme grew amid the confusion, and it was unlike the others. For it seemed at first soft and sweet, a mere rippling of gentle sounds in delicate melodies; but it could not be quenched". men were of the third theme. morgoth had already at this time started confusion and chaos.

basically, Iluvatar did not create them to be evil, he gave them free will and the desire to seek their fate outside the circles of the world.