Gathering of the White Council - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Orald · 01-28-2003, 09:20 AM

This may have been discussed before because I remember turning it over in my head for some time, but then I forgot about it until now. Here goes.

Do you think the White Council actually needed to hold meetings? With Osanwe Kenta it should have been unnecessary for the wisest of all Middle-Earth to need to gather together.

[ January 28, 2003: Message edited by: Durelen ]

Inderjit Sanghera · 01-28-2003, 09:29 AM

There is a reference in U.T to a council that was being held in Rivendell, so they problably did meet up. Oh yeah, which council you refering to the one of the Second or Third Age?

Orald · 01-28-2003, 09:35 AM

I didn't really mean to see if they did, I wanted to know if you thought it was necessary for them.

littlemanpoet · 01-28-2003, 10:57 AM

It depends on a couple factors, seems to me. What was the purpose of the White Council? To further the purposes of Manwe in specific, and of the good of the Free Peoples in general - right?

Additionally, even powerful beings have a need for community. From Isengard to Rivendell Gandalf, Galadriel, and Elrond were near each other, and enjoyed each other's company. So whereas they no doubt could send thought over distances, they would just as likely choose to be near each other spatially.

**lindil** · 01-28-2003, 11:41 AM

We really do not know enough about osanwe [Kenta by the way means 'enquiry into'] to say wether they would or would not have needed to have regular meetings.

It could be that the agendas were so large that it would be taxing or impossibe for all or some.

Also, even the Valar would meet together for council. If anyone could get away from the need for face to face communication it would be them.

[ January 29, 2003: Message edited by: lindil ]

**The Saucepan Man** · 01-28-2003, 06:42 PM

To be truly representative of the "free peoples", shouldn't the White Council have included representatives of the nations of Man, such as Rohan and Gondor (which would have precluded telepathic conferencing)? Why were they excluded.

Rumil · 01-28-2003, 06:56 PM

The white council was a meeting of the 'wise', were the men not deemed sufficiently 'wise'?

Additionally, it seems to have met quite infrequently, perhaps every 50-100 years depending on world events, obviously not ideal for mannish delegates!

Inderjit Sanghera · 01-29-2003, 04:42 AM

I doubt whether any delegates form the Rohhirm or Northmen would have been invited, though the chieftan or king of Northern Dunedian may have been.

doug*platypus · 01-29-2003, 05:54 AM

In Letters of Tolkien, JRRT speaks unfavourably of democracy (though not at length, at least not yet - I'm only halfway through). He even goes to the trouble of pointing out that the actual Greek translation is "mob rule", and that the system was not preferred by Greece's philosophers, who were of course her greatest legacy.

I don't find it odd at all that the fate of Middle-Earth was being decided by a select few individuals, or that politics didn't come into it. The White Council was looking after all that was good in Middle-Earth, and didn't need to be concerned with borders or realms as the states of, for example, Gondor, Rohan or Dale did.

I agree that the strain of prolonged Osanwë was the main reason that the Council needed to physically gather, and so yes it was necessary for them to do so.

the real findorfin · 01-29-2003, 05:56 AM

The White Council as a body, I have always presumed to include the Istari when they came, but was there one before? And if so, who would have been in it?

Inderjit Sanghera · 01-29-2003, 08:24 AM

There was one in the Second Age, in which the people decided what to do with Sauron, just before the last Alliance. I imagine it consited of:

Gil-Galad
Elrond
Elendil
Anrarion
Isildur
Elendur
Maybe Melendil
Durin 4th
Cirdan
Galadriel
Celeborn
Either Mal-Galad or Amroth, or both.
Either Oropher or Thranduil, or both.
Glorfindel
And other possible Elven/Mannish advisors.

Legolas · 02-05-2003, 11:39 PM

Quote:

ósanwe 'communication or interchange of thought'. Apparently composed of the prefix o- "used in words describing the meeting, junction, or union of two things" (WJ:367 s.v. *WO) + sanwe (q.v.).

It seems to me that ósanwe might not include the ability to relay the same thought to several different minds. Perhaps it does allow that, but tires out the person's mind. We're not given an entire roster of the White Council - did it include men and/or dwarves? It's possible that they didn't have the ability to transmit thoughts - only receive them blessed with that ability. Is it also possible that were not aware of it? Did they have the strength of mind and thought to do it?

It'd also be more difficult when everyone started talking at once.

01-28-2003, 09:20 AM	#1
Orald Shadow of Malice Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: right behind you Posts: 843	Gathering of the White Council This may have been discussed before because I remember turning it over in my head for some time, but then I forgot about it until now. Here goes. Do you think the White Council actually needed to hold meetings? With Osanwe Kenta it should have been unnecessary for the wisest of all Middle-Earth to need to gather together. [ January 28, 2003: Message edited by: Durelen ]

01-28-2003, 09:29 AM	#2
Inderjit Sanghera Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Wolverhampton, England Posts: 716	There is a reference in U.T to a council that was being held in Rivendell, so they problably did meet up. Oh yeah, which council you refering to the one of the Second or Third Age? __________________ “If I’m more of an influence on your son as a rapper then you are as a father then you've got to look at yourself as a parent” ~>Ice Cube. "Life is so beautiful"->Don Vito Corleone

01-28-2003, 11:41 AM	#5
lindil Seeker of the Straight Path Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: a hidden fastness in Big Valley nor cal Posts: 1,680	We really do not know enough about osanwe [Kenta by the way means 'enquiry into'] to say wether they would or would not have needed to have regular meetings. It could be that the agendas were so large that it would be taxing or impossibe for all or some. Also, even the Valar would meet together for council. If anyone could get away from the need for face to face communication it would be them. [ January 29, 2003: Message edited by: lindil ] __________________ The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night exchanging lore & wisdom such as they still possessed that they should not fall back into the mean estate of those who never knew or indeed rebelled against the Light.

01-28-2003, 06:42 PM	#6
The Saucepan Man Corpus Cacophonous Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: A green and pleasant land Posts: 8,390	To be truly representative of the "free peoples", shouldn't the White Council have included representatives of the nations of Man, such as Rohan and Gondor (which would have precluded telepathic conferencing)? Why were they excluded. __________________ Do you mind? I'm busy doing the fishstick. It's a very delicate state of mind!

01-28-2003, 06:56 PM	#7
Rumil Sage & Onions Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Britain Posts: 893	The white council was a meeting of the 'wise', were the men not deemed sufficiently 'wise'? Additionally, it seems to have met quite infrequently, perhaps every 50-100 years depending on world events, obviously not ideal for mannish delegates! __________________ Rumil of Coedhirion

01-28-2003, 09:35 AM	#3
Orald Shadow of Malice Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: right behind you Posts: 843	I didn't really mean to see if they did, I wanted to know if you thought it was necessary for them.

01-28-2003, 10:57 AM	#4
littlemanpoet Itinerant Songster Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: The Edge of Faerie Posts: 7,066	It depends on a couple factors, seems to me. What was the purpose of the White Council? To further the purposes of Manwe in specific, and of the good of the Free Peoples in general - right? Additionally, even powerful beings have a need for community. From Isengard to Rivendell Gandalf, Galadriel, and Elrond were near each other, and enjoyed each other's company. So whereas they no doubt could send thought over distances, they would just as likely choose to be near each other spatially.

01-29-2003, 04:42 AM	#8
Inderjit Sanghera Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Wolverhampton, England Posts: 716	I doubt whether any delegates form the Rohhirm or Northmen would have been invited, though the chieftan or king of Northern Dunedian may have been. __________________ “If I’m more of an influence on your son as a rapper then you are as a father then you've got to look at yourself as a parent” ~>Ice Cube. "Life is so beautiful"->Don Vito Corleone

01-29-2003, 05:54 AM	#9
doug*platypus Delver in the Deep Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Aotearoa Posts: 960	In Letters of Tolkien, JRRT speaks unfavourably of democracy (though not at length, at least not yet - I'm only halfway through). He even goes to the trouble of pointing out that the actual Greek translation is "mob rule", and that the system was not preferred by Greece's philosophers, who were of course her greatest legacy. I don't find it odd at all that the fate of Middle-Earth was being decided by a select few individuals, or that politics didn't come into it. The White Council was looking after all that was good in Middle-Earth, and didn't need to be concerned with borders or realms as the states of, for example, Gondor, Rohan or Dale did. I agree that the strain of prolonged Osanwë was the main reason that the Council needed to physically gather, and so yes it was necessary for them to do so. __________________ But Gwindor answered: 'The doom lies in yourself, not in your name'.

01-29-2003, 05:56 AM	#10
the real findorfin Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Mirkwood Posts: 514	The White Council as a body, I have always presumed to include the Istari when they came, but was there one before? And if so, who would have been in it? __________________ Legends of Middle Earth

01-29-2003, 08:24 AM	#11
Inderjit Sanghera Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Wolverhampton, England Posts: 716	There was one in the Second Age, in which the people decided what to do with Sauron, just before the last Alliance. I imagine it consited of: Gil-Galad Elrond Elendil Anrarion Isildur Elendur Maybe Melendil Durin 4th Cirdan Galadriel Celeborn Either Mal-Galad or Amroth, or both. Either Oropher or Thranduil, or both. Glorfindel And other possible Elven/Mannish advisors. __________________ “If I’m more of an influence on your son as a rapper then you are as a father then you've got to look at yourself as a parent” ~>Ice Cube. "Life is so beautiful"->Don Vito Corleone