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Old 12-31-2003, 02:31 PM   #1
Orominuialwen
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Question A Theory on Into the West

After listening to the song many times, <I>Into the West</I> to me seems almost like a love song. My opinion is that it's like Celeborn singing to Galadriel. The line "<I>and dream of the ones who came before</I>" makes me think of all the other Elves who have left for Valinor. Also the line "<I>you and I will meet again</I>" reminds me of how has Galadriel to leave Celeborn because she is a ring-bearer, but one day he will join her. What do you think?<p>[ 3:31 PM December 31, 2003: Message edited by: Orominuialwen ]
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Old 12-31-2003, 02:55 PM   #2
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That's a very good and interesting theory! Except, didn't Celeborn sail with Galadriel in the movie? It wasn't a paticually accurate ending really...
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Old 12-31-2003, 03:11 PM   #3
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Did he sail with her? I have forgetten already if he did, but it certainly would be a sore blow to the credibility of the movie.
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Old 12-31-2003, 03:16 PM   #4
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He definately sailed. I even asked dragoneyes, and she says yes. She wouldn't forget something like that!
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Old 12-31-2003, 03:25 PM   #5
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I'm still kind of confused about Into the West. I'm pretty sure that May it Be is Galadriel talking to Frodo (or atleast I think so) and Gollums song is pretty self explanatory. The Galadriel and Celeborn theory is interesting, but as Celeborn sails with Galadriel in the movie, probably not that accurate. Any other ideas about the songs meaning?
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Old 12-31-2003, 03:35 PM   #6
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I always thought that it was about Frodo and Sam. And about death. See Sam was always encouraging Frodo. And the song seems to be saying that two people will meet again and in the books in the appendixes Frodo and Sam were the only ones who ever technically met again. PJ has made references to the appendixes, I wouldn't be surprised if this was one.<p>[ 5:15 PM December 31, 2003: Message edited by: Imladris ]
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Old 12-31-2003, 03:39 PM   #7
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I think the movie shows Celeborn taking one step onto the ship (or the small walkway onto the ship). It doesn't seem enough to state whether he definitely sailed or not.
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Old 12-31-2003, 03:48 PM   #8
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I also thought it was Frodo and Sam.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>The ships have come to carry you home<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>so it can't be someone who sailed.<P>But then there's this bit:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>All will turn to silver glass<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>That was something Gandalf said to Pippin, but the song can't be from Gandalf's point of view because he sailed.<P>I'd say it's most likely Sam's point of view, directed at Frodo.
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Old 12-31-2003, 04:11 PM   #9
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Oh well. So much for my nice theory. I didn't remember them having Celeborn sail away. I need to go see RotK again.
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Old 12-31-2003, 04:46 PM   #10
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Here is the song in full, with my comments underneath:<P><I> Lay down<BR>Your sweet and weary head<BR>The night is falling<BR>You have come to journey's end<BR>Sleep now<BR>And dream of the ones who came before<BR>They are calling<BR>From across the distant shore </I><BR>~~~~~~~~~~~`<P> I think we can all agree that this is talking about Frodo. <I> The night is falling </I> could refer to the fact that he must leave and that death is close. Frodo, it appears, is being called to the Valinor.<BR>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<P><I> Why do you weep?<BR>What are these tears upon your face?<BR>Soon you will see<BR>All of your fears will pass away<BR>Safe in my arms<BR>You're only sleeping. </I><BR>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<P> This one to me is very ambiguous. In a way, I can see Sam telling Frodo not to be afraid, but then again, it doesn't make sense for Sam to be saying that when everything is okay. Hmmm....Or, it could be Galadriel telling Frodo not to be afraid to come to the Valinor -- if he was afraid, that is.<BR>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ <P><I> What can you see<BR>On the horizon?<BR>Why do the white gulls call?<BR>Across the sea<BR>A pale moon rises<BR>The ships have come to carry you home. </I><BR>~~~~~~~~~~~~<P> Pretty self explanatory, don't you think?<P>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<BR><I> And all will turn<BR>To silver glass<BR>A light on the water<BR>All Souls pass </I><BR>~~~~~~~~~~~~~<P> From what Gandalf said in RotK, it's clear it's talking about death. Everybody must die, but death is not a thing to be feared. <I> A light on the water </I> could be referring to the journey to the Valinor maybe?<BR>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<P><I> Hope fades<BR>Into the world of night<BR>Through shadows falling<BR>Out of memory and time </I><BR>~~~~~~~~~~~~<P> Seems to me that it is saying that hope disappears as evil grows (<I> Into the world of night etc </I><P>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<P><I> Don't say<BR>We have come now to the end<BR>White shores are calling<BR>You and I will meet again<BR>And you'll be here in my arms<BR>Just sleeping </I><BR>~~~~~~~~~~~~<BR> <BR> On second thought, this seems it might be Frodo talking to Sam. He said that the Shire was saved but not for him <I> Don't say we have come now to the end </I>, he had to got to the Valinor <I> White shores are calling </I>. Not sure what the sleeping in the arms could mean, though. But this paragraph right here disrupts the Galadriel theory.<BR>~~~~~~~~~~~~ <P><I> Chorus<P>And all will turn <BR>To silver glass<BR>A light on the water<BR>Grey ships pass <BR>Into the West </I><BR>~~~~~~~~~~~~~<P>Maybe when you're dead and in the Valinor, you'll see things more clearly, the reasons why things happened (silver glass). <P>In a way, it could have be from Galadriel's poin of view: it would be rather cool to have Galadriel at the beginning and end of the story. It seems to me that it could various paragraphs could very likely be from a certain person's point of view, but then a different paragraph contradicts it. <P>But this is what I found in RotK:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Go in peace! I will not say: do not weep; for not all tears are an evil. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Gandalf to a crying Merry and Pippin at the Havens. <P>It also mentions that the light of the glass of Gladriel tht Frodo bore glimmered and was lost. That could explain the light upon the water bit. <P>Also, the silver glass and green country with whtie shores refers to a dream that Frodo had in FotR (Chapter 8, Fog on the Barrowdowns).<P>Interesting, is it not?<p>[ 5:50 PM December 31, 2003: Message edited by: Imladris ]
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Old 12-31-2003, 08:23 PM   #11
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I don't think that the song talks about death. When it talks about silver glass and white shores, if you remember that at the end of the chapter "Grey Havens" in <I>The Return of the King</I>, it says that when Frodo is on the ship for Valinor it was like the dream that he had at Bombadil's. The rain turned in a curtain of silver glass and rolled back to show white shores and beyond that a green courtry of Valinor under a sunrise. Instead of showing that in the movie PJ just had Gandalf describe it to Pippin like where they go when they die but techincally it is never said where hobbits go when they die.<P>[ 3:53 PM January 01, 2004: Message edited by: Eldawen of Lorien ]<p>[ 3:55 PM January 01, 2004: Message edited by: Eldawen of Lorien ]
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Old 12-31-2003, 09:50 PM   #12
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This is an excerpt from an article about Cameron Duncan the young boy mentioned in the RotK credits.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> If Jackson was his hero, Duncan regarded Fran Walsh as "the nicest person, with this whole aura about her when she came onto the set". In turn, his passion and courage helped inspire the lyrics written by Walsh for the Annie Lennox song at the end of The Return of the King. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I don't think that sums it up but I hope it helps. If you want to read the whole article you can read it <A HREF="http://www.listener.co.nz/default,1150,1123,0.sm" TARGET=_blank>here.</A>
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Old 01-01-2004, 03:32 PM   #13
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*sniffle* That is so beautiful! Reading about Cameron's struggle brought tears to my eyes.
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Old 01-01-2004, 06:29 PM   #14
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Old 01-01-2004, 09:44 PM   #15
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Why does this song, or any of the songs written for the films, have to be from the perspective of one character to another?<P>I consider them to be "commentaries" on the situations to which they relate, as though written by minstels about the events portrayed.<P>The exception, I suppose, would be <I>Gollum's Song</I> which does seem to be written as though Smeagol is addressing himself (or his "other self" ).
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Old 01-02-2004, 01:48 AM   #16
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<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I consider them to be "commentaries" on the situations to which they relate, as though written by minstels about the events portrayed. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>That is also how I have thought of the songs, especially <I>Into the West</I>. <BR><I>May It Be</I> I think, can also be taken that way. Although I do agree it makes since that it could be Galadriel addressing Frodo.<BR>(Of course though, Gollum's song is different, since that seems from Smeagol's point of view.)<BR>So, I think that <I>Into The West</I>is not just one person talking to the other, rather an overseer. And since this being the end, I think that makes sense. <BR>Yet, if it was to be one to another, to me it seems like its Sam to Frodo.<p>[ 2:51 AM January 02, 2004: Message edited by: MYyyPreciousSS ]
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Old 01-02-2004, 03:53 PM   #17
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<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Why does this song, or any of the songs written for the films, have to be from the perspective of one character to another?<BR>I consider them to be "commentaries" on the situations to which they relate, as though written by minstels about the events portrayed.<BR> <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I agree, but then, what does "safe in my arms" and "you'll be here in my arms" mean ?? I automatically start asking myself "in whose arms?" It's been puzzling me ever since I heard that song !<P>Some of Tolkien's own poetry is also mysterious at first reading, but after reading the Silmarillion it all became clear to me. <BR>But in the case of these lyrics, where can we find the answer?<P>(I was a bit disappointed anyhow that they didn't use more of Tolkien's poems/ songs. How about Legolas song "To the Sea! " or Bilbo's last song? Instead they used elements of these and added strange things like "safe in my arms"... )
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Old 01-04-2004, 02:57 PM   #18
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<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I agree, but then, what does "safe in my arms" and "you'll be here in my arms" mean ?? I automatically start asking myself "in whose arms?" It's been puzzling me ever since I heard that song !<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>This is the part that puzzles me, also. <BR>That is the only part of the song that doesnt quite fit into the "commentary" theroy. That part stuck out at me when I first heard it too; thats the part that makes it seem like it could be Sam and Frodo. <BR>Maybe we are just thinking about it to hard.
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Old 01-04-2004, 08:42 PM   #19
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Bit of an aside I know, but this is something I just noticed. In the Extended Towers, during the added scene when Gandalf and Aragorn talk during their night camp on the way to Edoras, there is a version of the Into The West theme played. It's right when Gandalf mentions that the Ring remains hidden.<P>H.C.
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Old 01-05-2004, 08:40 PM   #20
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After having listened to ITW again, I have a theory: It's addressed to Bilbo. Analysis:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR><BR>Lay down<BR>Your sweet and weary head<BR>The night is falling<BR>You have come to journey's end<BR>Sleep now<BR>And dream of the ones who came before<BR>They are calling<BR>From across the distant shore<BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Here, I go 'against the grain' and say this refers to the shots of Bilbo asleep in Frodo's arms. After all, this journey is the end of Bilbo's journey as much as Frodo's.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR><BR>Why do you weep?<BR>What are these tears upon your face?<BR>Soon you will see<BR>All of your fears will pass away<BR>Safe in my arms<BR>You're only sleeping.<BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Admittedly, Bilbo isn't shown as crying, unlike the other hobbits, but I find it hard to believe he wouldn't be at least a little sad to leave middle-earth. Also, the "you're <I>only</I> sleeping" line can refer to the fact that Bilbo isn't dead (yet), he's just sleeping.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR><BR>What can you see<BR>On the horizon?<BR>Why do the white gulls call?<BR>Across the sea<BR>A pale moon rises<BR>The ships have come to carry you home.<BR>And all will turn<BR>To silver glass<BR>A light on the water<BR>All Souls pass<BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I guess one problem with my analysis here is that in the books, the 'all will turn to silver glass' bit is associated with Frodo. Then again, in the movie, the line is said by Gandalf, to Pippin, so why can't it refer also to Bilbo?<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR><BR>Hope fades<BR>Into the world of night<BR>Through shadows falling<BR>Out of memory and time<BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>This bit confuses me, no matter who it's addressed to. All I can think of is Bilbo's wish to see the ring again - I admit that's pretty weak.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR><BR>Don't say<BR>We have come now to the end<BR>White shores are calling<BR>You and I will meet again<BR>And you'll be here in my arms<BR>Just sleeping<BR>And all will turn<BR>To silver glass<BR>A light on the water<BR>Grey ships pass<BR>Into the West<BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>'you and I will meet again' poses a problem, I guess.<P>Still, it's an idea. Any obvious gaping holes in my argument which I should have noticed already?
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Old 01-06-2004, 01:55 AM   #21
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<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Reading about Cameron's struggle brought tears to my eyes. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Forgive my asking, but what happened?
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Old 01-07-2004, 08:21 PM   #22
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Sting

After having seen RotK a second time, I did see that Celeborn appeared to get on the boat at the Grey Havens. So there goes my theory. Oh well, in my little bubble of alternate reality, it can still work. The line that made me think it was Celeborn singing to Galadriel was the one you were talking about. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> And you'll be here in my arms<BR>Just sleeping <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Oh well. It's not the most wrong idea I've ever had. The Blibo theory is quite interesting, though. I shall have to give it some thought.<p>[ 9:22 PM January 07, 2004: Message edited by: Orominuialwen ]
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Old 01-08-2004, 12:40 AM   #23
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"What are these tears upon your face?"<BR> <P>I don't know why someone would ask that. Maybe it's an elf asking, since they're so stoical. "These tears are saline that emerged from my tear ducts."
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Old 01-11-2004, 07:21 PM   #24
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<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> "What are these tears upon your face?"<P>I don't know why someone would ask that. Maybe it's an elf asking, since they're so stoical. "These tears are saline that emerged from my tear ducts."<BR> <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I think that line is supposed to mean, "Why are you crying?" Perhaps whoever it is being sung to is crying because they believe they will miss Middle-earth when they go to Valinor, or if it's one of the hobbits or someone that isn't going they are crying because they will miss Frodo and Gandalf and the lot.
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Old 01-11-2004, 08:13 PM   #25
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<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I agree, but then, what does "safe in my arms" and "you'll be here in my arms" mean ?? I automatically start asking myself "in whose arms?" It's been puzzling me ever since I heard that song !<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>When I first heard this song, I felt it was referring to several scenes from the book.. <UL TYPE=SQUARE>When Frodo and Sam are on the stairs of Cirith Ungol, Sam tells Frodo "Safe, if you lay close to me...I'd keep watch over you...if you lay near, with my arm round you, no one could come pawing you without your Sam knowing it." <P>When Sam finds Frodo in the Tower "he lay back in Sam's gentle arms, closing his eyes, like a child at rest when night-fears are driven away by some loved voice or hand."<P>When they're on the foot of Mt. Doom "His master was shivering...and lying down he tried to comfort Frodo with his arms and body. Then sleep took him, and the dim light of the last day of their quest found them side by side."</UL><P>..and therefore was Sam talking to Frodo.
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Old 01-12-2004, 06:51 PM   #26
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Call me strange but the first time I heard "Into the West" I immediately thought of Celebrian. I thought of the reuniting at long last of Elrond and Celebrian after what 2,000 years? But then that's just me.
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Old 01-13-2004, 10:06 AM   #27
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Yes, the "and you'll be here in my arms, just sleeping" bit... <BR>It makes me think of Frodo and Sam, I agree with Alatáriël. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>(I was a bit disappointed anyhow that they didn't use more of Tolkien's poems/ songs. How about Legolas song "To the Sea! " or Bilbo's last song? Instead they used elements of these and added strange things like "safe in my arms"... )<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Yup, I would have loved seeing Mr. Bloom sing!!
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Old 01-18-2004, 02:51 AM   #28
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I've refined my Bilbo theory:<P>The first parts are Frodo & Bilbo singing to each other: Frodo to Bilbo; Bilbo to Frodo ("what are these tears upon your face" makes more sense if it's directed at someone who's crying); both together.<P>Then the confusing middle bit is a (slightly odd) juxtaposition of a continuation of Pippin's little ditty, as in:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR><BR>...cloud and shade:<BR>Hope shall fade,<BR>All shall fade<BR>...<BR>Hope fades<BR>Into the world of night<BR>Through shadows falling<BR>Out of memory and time<BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>The last bit could even be Frodo to Pippin. Here's where I get very deeply Not Canon:<P>The lines about all turning to silver glass, and indeed the "into the west" theme have already been associated with Pippin in the "death's not so bad" scene. There is no reason in the movie for Frodo & Pippin to not meet again. This is supported by the reference to Pippin's song above.<P>(removes anti-canon-proof helmet)<P>Yeah, so it's more of a happly little hobbit extended/adopted/whatsit family thing, rather than being about just Bilbo.<P>What say you?
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Old 01-18-2004, 09:07 PM   #29
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I think it's to the fans. I mean, we're crying becuase it's all over and there's no more waiting, but then again "You and I will meet again", like on the DVD?<P>Lay down<BR>Your sweet and weary head<BR>Night is falling<BR>You have come to journey's end (You can now leave the theater)<BR>Sleep now<BR>And dream of the ones (Films) who came before<BR>They are calling<BR>From across the distant shore (Your DVD shelf, because you're still in the theater)<P><BR>Why do you weep?<BR>What are these tears upon your face? (It's over, it was great)<BR>Soon you will see<BR>All of your fears will pass away<BR>Safe in my arms<BR>You're only sleeping. <BR>(In a daze?)<P>What can you see<BR>On the horizon?<BR>Why do the white gulls call?<BR>Across the sea<BR>A pale moon rises<BR>The ships have come to carry you home. <BR>(What is this? Simple euphoria!)<P>And all will turn<BR>To silver glass (Tears in your eyes)<BR>A light on the water<BR>All Souls pass (At the Grey Havens scene, and everyone leaving the theater but you.)<P>Hope fades<BR>Into the world of night<BR>Through shadows falling<BR>Out of memory and time <BR>(It's all over, depression sets in.)<P>Don't say<BR>We have come now to the end<BR>White shores are calling<BR>You and I will meet again<BR>(You can watch it again and again and again!)<P>And you'll be here in my arms<BR>Just sleeping <BR>(Comforted, nothing can happen while you're watching LotR)<P>And all will turn <BR>To silver glass (Again, the tears)<BR>A light on the water<BR>Grey ships pass <BR>Into the West <P><BR>That's my opinion, anyway.
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Old 01-19-2004, 01:11 PM   #30
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He he! I like your theories, zb and Oddwen. Much better than mine. The only thing I 'm wondering about are the lines <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Across the sea<BR>A pale moon rises <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Doesn't the moon rise in the East? It wouldn't make sense unless it's supposed to be from the point of view of someone already in Valinor. Oh well. It's best not to think to much about it because the more I think, the more confused I get!
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Old 01-19-2004, 01:51 PM   #31
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"across the sea, a pale moon rises". Well, it doestn't necisariliy have to mean that the moon rises in the in the east OR west. It could mean that they are sailing into the west, whilst the pale moon rises. It's as simple as that.<P>And hey, I thought about almost all those things hidden in the song while I was sitting in the cinema. Isn't it amazing. But your versions were alot better though.
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Old 01-19-2004, 03:07 PM   #32
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LOL Oddwen, I love your theory! It actually works pretty well. <P>Recently in my local newspaper they actually discussed this exact thing (sort of). Here's what they had to say: <P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>For "Return of the King," "Into the West" is elf-queen Galadriel's soothing lullaby to Frodo, who, along with Gandalf, Celeborn and Galadriel herself, is riding one of the last ships to the Grey Havens, the elvin afterlife. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>For the full article check out <A HREF="http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,575040544,00.html" TARGET=_blank>'Return of King' soundtrack dazzles </A><P>His theory isn't explained very well but eh, whatever. I still like Oddwen's theory.
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Old 01-19-2004, 08:55 PM   #33
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Oddwen, I think your theory is better than my crazy hobbit theory However, in light of this thread, I would like to propose a new, overarching theory, which is that "Into the West" is thoroughly post-modern: i.e. it has no inherent meaning and can be about whatever you want. <P>This theory is backed up by the crazy lines which make no sense - they're <I>designed</I> to mean nothing!
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Old 01-20-2004, 01:33 AM   #34
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MmyPresciousss wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>So, I think that Into The Westis not just one person talking to the other, rather an overseer. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>This comes closest to what works best for me to explain the lyrics. If you think of the "speaker" as God, Jesus, Allah, Eru, Iluvatar, it all works beautifully for Frodo, Sam, Cameron, me, you--all of us who face physical death. And, it explains why it affects me so much.<P>Thanks to the person who posted the lyrics as that's what evoked the image for me. And MmyPreciouss--sorry if I left out a consonant or three! <p>[ 2:35 AM January 20, 2004: Message edited by: dininziliel ]
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Old 01-23-2004, 06:21 AM   #35
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Ran across this today while googling for something else:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Howard Shore's final "The Lord of the Rings" score and his song "Into the West" --- co-written with singer Annie Lennox and screenwriter Fran Walsh --- were nominated. <P>"It was a really rich canvas for Howard, and this very emotional song wraps the whole thing up," explains exec VP Paul Broucek. "It was created from the perspective of Galadriel (Cate Blanchett) singing to Frodo (Elijah Wood) at the Grey Havens (near the end of the film)." <BR> <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Quote found <A HREF="http://forum.interference.com/t86720.html" TARGET=_blank>here</A>, scroll down over a third of the way.<P>Maybe the second part she's singing to Sam.<P>Edited afterthought: since "May It Be" always seemed like it was supposed to be Galadriel (although a few things didn't quite fit... poetic license?) this is similar; it pretty much fits Galadriel, considering poetic license.<P>And, <B>dininziliel</B>, that still makes what you say true; the song can easily be applied to the One who watches over us. "And underneath are the Everlasting arms."<p>[ 7:26 AM January 23, 2004: Message edited by: mark12_30 ]
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Old 01-29-2004, 04:01 PM   #36
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I see it as one part is Froto to Sam and another part as Sam to Froto. Maybe it was just to show Froto and Sam's relationship and it was to comfort one another.<P>Or it was meant to everyone who was there, leaving or staying, as to comfort them from the separation. <P>Well they most have done something right since they won a Golden Globe for it! I don't know if I will ever figure it out! Arrrgh!
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Old 02-01-2004, 09:24 PM   #37
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Thank you for the information, mark12_30. I agree that it's still compatible with being held in the arms of God/Love/Jesus/Eru/Iluvatar/Allah.<P>An opportunity presented itself the 2nd time I saw RotK that I didn't pass up. There were only about 15 people at the noon showing and they left as soon as the credits rolled. That left me alone in the theatre as the song started. Did I sing along out loud? Oh, you bet!
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Old 02-03-2004, 03:45 PM   #38
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<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Did I sing along out loud? Oh, you bet! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I've done that both times I saw RotK too.
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