How would hobbits do as wizards?

[Carannillion]

The hobbits - at least the ones we have come to grow so very fond of - seem to have a very strong mind and will. How do you suspect they would do if they were ever to study wizardry (maybe not the right term, but you get the point)?

Or differently: Would the form of a hobbit have been a better one for the Istari (or perhaps one or two of them)?

[Grey Ship]

well, since man are the race that above all desire power, a hobbit-sarumann would might turn out different... though i doubt their pysical form had anything to do with it. seems to me they actually continued to be maiar when they arrived i middle earth...

[obloquy]

The form makes no difference. The Istar would be the same in mind and spirit no matter what shape they chose or were given. Their incarnate forms subject them to the hardships of a physical being, but they're not limited to the mental capacity of other beings of like form.

[Carannillion]

I see your point, but I was actually thinking more in the direction of how would a hobbit do if he decided he wanted to become a wizard (not a Maia)?

And also, if the Istari had appeared as hobbits, how would men or elves have looked upon them?

[The Barrow-Wight]

I think your last question points to the factor that would most affect how well they were received in Middle-earth. Throughout history, leaders were typically the tallest and strongest of the races with no notable (short) exceptions (at least none that I can remember). Thingol, Bullroarer and Elendil are three good examples. A Maiar in a diminutive body would like have less success in directing the efforts of the peoples of Middle-earth, and since the Istari were sent to deal mainly with the kingdoms of Men, the choice of Hobbit would have made no sense.

As for the idea of a Hobbit choosing a career in wizardry, I don't think it would be an option for them. They were remarkably 'unmagical' and thus, with the subtle magic of Middle-earth, they would have little possibility of wielding magical powers.

[Mister Underhill]

But just imagine the eats if they could!

[zifnab]

I dont think that too many people would have listened to the Istari if they came as hobbits, it seems that alot of people had never seen or heard of hobbits outside of the Shire, save a few. It would be kinda funny seeing a little hobbit challenge a balrog.

As for them being wizards, I think they would have used their "magic" just to make tons and tons of seed-cake and pipe-weed!

"Do not meddle in the affairs of hobbits, for they are subtle and quick to anger!

[img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img] [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img] [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img] [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]

[Elrian]

And think of the mushrooms they'd be growing! And that would be some powerful Old Toby too. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] Pippin as a Wizard?! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] Yeah I could see that! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] Maybe some of them Hobbits do have some magical powers as far as eats go, we could use some more bakers round here for Barrow Cookies, they seem to be mighty scarce lately. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[Eowyn of Ithilien]

Pippin as a wizard would just be scary...but in a good way.

[Carannillion]

Okay, I agree that Istari in the form of hobbits would be weird, and maybe they would have had a lot less influence on the kings of men than Gandalf and Saruman as we know them have had. As for the general knowledge about hobbits outside the Shire, I suppose they would have been quite famous had the Istari been hobbits. Quite wealthy, too. Who better to advertise for Old Toby than a wizard who grows it himself?! [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] Heh, actually this turned out to be more fun than contemplation. Perhaps just as well. Made me laugh a lot... [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[Grey Ship]

So, hobbits are to short and fat for beeing leaders?!

Gandalf is a crooced old weiry man - and yet he wields a power greater than most imagine. And what about Aragorn? Aragorn is a Ranger, for God sake! A filthy weiry bad-fed drifter! Who could have thought him a king?

There are more than eye perceives about the hobbits... (that sentence may not be interely right, though...)

[zifnab]

Well Grey Ship,

Gandalf is a crooced old weiry man - and yet he wields a power greater than most imagine. And what about Aragorn? Aragorn is a Ranger, for God sake! A filthy weiry bad-fed drifter! Who could have thought him a king?

It seems to me that these two individuals didnt really want people to know their true powers for the time being. And there is a few times from the action of these two, that when people preceived them they say them for what they were(or at least thought they knew).

As for many I dont think it has to do with the hobbits "size". But if it were me and a hobbit and an old man dressed in wizard clothes came up to me and said "I'm going to help save the world". I would want the old-man on my side. I dont have a thing against smaller people(really I dont), but It seems that older people are just more wise(but some are just plain wacky).

I agree with you about "Theres more than meets the eyes" with hobbits.

Ok.....now im started to lose myself. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]


Gandalf

[zifnab]

But I do believe that Hobbits can be leaders, just look at the chapter "The Scouring of the Shire".

[img]smilies/cool.gif[/img]

[zifnab]

And of course for what Frodo, Sam, Merry, and Pippin did. Without them the land of M-E probably would be alot different.

[Elrian]

Gandalf was sent in that form he didn't choose it himself. There is more to Hobbits than meets the eye, they proved that in the books. But Hobbits as wizards wouldn't work in Tolkiens world since wizards were Maia and Hobbits were not.

[Carannillion]

Umm...

Well, what does a Maia look like?

They came in the form of old men . Had the Valar chosen hobbits as the form of one or more of the Istari, then it would have been because the Valar (with their immense wisdom) saw it as an advantage.

They chose the form of men, however, and as we know, it lead to victory over Sauron. Even though the form may have been an influence upon them; Saruman's lust for power, a typical 'manish' trait.

Do you think the form of an elf would have been wiser? Or perhaps one Istari from each race?

[Elrian]

The Maia like the Valar can take whatever shape they wish, I remember reading that many Maia remain in spirit form though. The Valar may have chose the shape of men for the Istari since the Elves were departing and the age of men was at hand. The Elves in the Third Age had little to do with Men,or other races, the exception being the Rivendell Elves.

But like someone said above the Hobbits were valiant in their own right, though the other races didn't know it until the War of the Ring. Or maybe the forgotten Battle of Fornost where it is said the Hobbits sent archers to aid in the battle.

[The Mirrorball Man]

In the grand scheme of things, Hobbits are Men. Both belong to the Second People. They are the Younger Children of Illúvatar. They share the same fate: differences between them are cosmetic only. In my opinion Hobbits are not mentioned in the Silmarillion because Elves couldn't really tell the difference between all the different races of Men.

So if the Valar wanted to send the Istari on Middle-Earth under the appearance of old Men, the Wizards could have been Hobbits and that wouldn't have made much of a difference.

Well, I think that most hobbits have good minds, but hate to be bothered, and don't like adventures (unlike our friends, bilbo and frodo!). Many of the Hobbits don't like Gandalf and all of his tricks. They run whenever he comes to the Shire! They may make good wizards, but most likely wouldnt want to be a wizard! [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]

[Elrian]

In the grand scheme of things, Hobbits are Men. Both belong to the Second People. They are the Younger Children of Illúvatar. They share the same fate: differences between them are cosmetic only. In my opinion Hobbits are not mentioned in the Silmarillion because Elves couldn't really tell the difference between all the different races of Men.

I came up with closely related to Men, and created in the First Age. Which HoME says they are Men?

[The Mirrorball Man]

Originally posted by Elrian:
<STRONG>
I came up with closely related to Men, and created in the First Age. Which HoME says they are Men?</STRONG>

I don't know about the History of Middle-Earth. I based my hypothesis on circumstantial evidence. In Concerning Hobbits, Hobbits are said to be closely related to Men. While the early chapters of The Silmarillion describe all the intelligent races of Arda that were not transformed by Morgoth: Elves (the Elder Children of Illúvatar), Men (the Younger Children of Illúvatar), Dwarves (the Children of Aulë) and Ents (the Children of Yavanna). Hobbits are not mentioned, so in my opinion that can only mean that they're meant to share the fate of Men, and are similar to Men in every aspect apart from their appearance, just like Petty-Dwarves are just an offshoot of the Dwarven race.

[Carannillion]

I think I agree with the theory saying that Hobbits are closely related to Men, and share their fate, but I don't think they're simply a variety of Men - such as the Dwarves/Petty-Dwarves.

To extend and perhaps clarify the 'stray-topic' a bit:
How do you think Gandalf would have behaved if he had been a Hobbit? Could he have gone about the way he did, ordering kings around, doing as he pleased?

No, I don't think so. I actually realized that Istari in the form of Hobbits would have completely changed the story. If one (or more) of the Istari had been a Hobbit, then the Hobbits would have been well-known abroad, and not the unknown little people. The people where help is least likely to be found. We would have had a completely different LotR (and perhaps a different Sil and HoME as well?)
There is a very appropriate quote from Gandalf in the movie, which I don't think is in the books (anybody know for sure?). In the movie, Gandalf says that the world outside the Shire don't know or care much about Hobbits, 'something for which I am very thankful'.

This may be taken from the books, but I haven't found it (too tired to start reading the entire introduction once more, anyone else?).

[Elrian]

While the early chapters of The Silmarillion describe all the intelligent races of Arda that were not transformed by Morgoth: Elves (the Elder Children of Illúvatar), Men (the Younger Children of Illúvatar), Dwarves (the Children of Aulë) and Ents (the Children of Yavanna).

The Silmarillion doesn't mention Ents. And they are not mentioned as the Children of Yavannah. Hobbits are closely related to Men, but not Men, their fate was never mentioned. And they were only briefly mention in the Silmarillion.

[Marileangorifurnimaluim]

Well they are mortal, and the length of their lives similar to Men. It seems those are the two main traits that differentiate the races, beyond mere appearances.

"It seems we were left off all the old lists."

I'm afraid Sam as a wizard would have been a complete disaster.

[ January 16, 2002: Message edited by: Marileangorifurnimaluim ]

[The Mirrorball Man]

Originally posted by Elrian:
The Silmarillion doesn't mention Ents. And they are not mentioned as the Children of Yavannah.

You should add a couple of "maybe" and "in my opinion". Because in my opinion, Ents are mentioned in the Silmarillion, as the Children of Yavanna. Here's what I have in mind:

'But the kelvar can flee or defend themselves, whereas the olvar that grow cannot. And among these I hold trees dear. Long in the growing, swift shall they be in the felling, and unless they pay toll with fruit upon bough little mourned in their passing. So I see in my thought. Would that the trees might speak on behalf of all things that have roots, and punish those that wrong them!'

'This is a strange thought,' said Manwë.

'Yet it was in the Song,' said Yavanna. 'For while thou wert in the heavens and with Ulmo built the clouds and poured out the rains, I lifted up the branches of great trees to receive them, and some sang to Ilúvatar amid the wind and the rain.'

Then Manwë sat silent, and the thought of Yavanna that she had put into his heart grew and unfolded; and it was beheld by Ilúvatar.

[Elrian]

That doesn't mention Ents. Look in the glossary of the Sil, there are no Ents mentioned. The Ents were not a race of beings, they were tree herders. According to TCGTME they were evidently spirits summoned by the thought of Yavannah to be guardians of the olvar. They are not mentioned as the Children of Yavannah either. I do not have to put possibly or maybe in my post. If such were the case that the Ents were the Children of Yavannah, it could also be that the Hobbits are the children of another Vala. Their life span parallels the lesser men, but it does not say their fate is the same.

[The Mirrorball Man]

Originally posted by Elrian:
That doesn't mention Ents.

That's ok if it's your point of view. I know I'm not alone in believing that it does.

[Elrian]

Look in the glossary of the Sil, there are no Ents mentioned. The Ents were not a race of beings, they were tree herders. According to TCGTME they were evidently spirits summoned by the thought of Yavannah to be guardians of the olvar. They are not mentioned as the Children of Yavannah either. I do not have to put possibly or maybe in my post. If such were the case that the Ents were the Children of Yavannah, it could also be that the Hobbits are the children of another Vala. Their life span parallels the lesser men, but it does not say their fate is the same.

You missed the rest of the post friend. It's not my opinion, the Ents are not mentioned as a race in the Sil or LOTR, this quote from the Silmarillion says it all. [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

Then Manwe awoke, and went down to Yavannah upon Ezellohar, and sat beside her beneath the Two Trees. And
Manwe said; O Kementari, Eru hath spoken, saying: "Do then any of the Valar suppose that I did not hear all the Song, even the least sound of the least voice? Behold! When the children awake, then the thought of Yavannah will awake also, and it will summon spirits from afar, and they will go among the kelvar. and the olvar, and some will dwell therein, and be held in reverence, and their just anger shall be feared.

[ January 16, 2002: Message edited by: Elrian ]

[The Mirrorball Man]

Originally posted by Elrian:
<STRONG>You missed the rest of the post friend. And it's from the book, the Ents are not mentioned as a race. It's not an opinion. Like the Balrogs who were not a race, but Maia.</STRONG>

I'm sorry I apparently missed your point. So the distinction you're making is that Ents are not a race, but are instead spirits, is that right?

Leaving aside for a moment the fact that your expose was not an opinion, I still have problems with that explanation.

Doesn't it strike you as odd that there are Entwives? This dichotomy of gender seems strange if Ents are supposed to be spirits.

In addition, I don't understand how Trolls could have been made "by the Enemy in the Great Darkness, in mockery of Ents, as orcs were of Elves.", and I certainly don't understand this:

"Learn now the lore of Living Creatures!
First name the four, the Free Peoples:
Eldest of all, the elf-children;
Dwarf the delver, dark are his houses;
Ent the earthborn, old as mountains;
Man the mortal, master of horses."

I certainly don't want to sound aggressive or anything like that, but unless I have missed something important, I think I have brought up enough elements to back up my claims, which would mean that your point of view is, well, a point of view. Tell me where I made a mistake.

[Carannillion]

Certainly the 'lesser men' of ME don't live as long as hobbits!

Hobbits usually lived past 100 years, while the lesser men of ME have (the way I understand it) a life span similar to us. The descendants of Númenor are a totally different matter, as they were granted an especially long life by the Valar.