Tolkien's Mistakes

[gorthaur_cruel]

As flawless as Tolkien may seem to be, he has made some small mistakes in writing his books. The ones I know are merely small technical things, but they're still sort of amusing. Also, all of these CAN be somehow twisted to make it so that they're not mistakes, but you have to realise that Tolkien was merely human. He has to make some mistakes.

1. In the Tale of Years, it has these two entries for the Second Age. (Emphasis mine)

c. 1000 - Sauron, alarmed by the growing power of the Numenoreans, chooses Mordor as a land to make into a stronghold. He begins the building of Barad-dur.

c. 1600 - Sauron forges the One Ring in Orodruin. He completes the Barad-dur. Celebrimbor perceives the designs of Sauron.

So he completed the Barad-dur the year he created the Ring, which was 600 years since he began building it. However, in the Council of Elrond, Elrond says:

The Dark Tower was broken, but its foundations were not removed; for they were made with the power of the Ring, and while it remains they will endure.

So according to this, Sauron built the foundations of Barad-dur, the lowest support of a tower, 600 years AFTER he began constructing it. However, after he did build the foundations, he built up the rest in only one year

2. In The Departure of Boromir, there is a conversation as follows(emphasis mine):

'S is for Sauron', said Gimli. 'That is easy to read.
'Nay!' said Legolas. 'Sauron does not use Elf-runes'
'Neither does he use his right name, nor permit it to be spelt or spoken', said Aragorn.

Yet, the Mouth of Sauron doesn't seem to have anything against saying "Sauron" Here's an example:

'Surety you crave! Sauron gives none. If you sure for his clemency you must first do his bidding

3. Also, notice how the poems that are "roughly translated" from their original language always have perfect rhythm and rhyming? Somehow, that bugs me.

If you know of any other mistakes, please post them!

[HerenIstarion]

You are cruel, Gorthaur

But well noted, I must admit. Observant eye and keen mind, sure.

Though I'm not going on wild mistake hunt, no way, sir!

[davem]

Originally Posted by Gorthaur

2. In The Departure of Boromir, there is a conversation as follows(emphasis mine):
Quote:
'S is for Sauron', said Gimli. 'That is easy to read.
'Nay!' said Legolas. 'Sauron does not use Elf-runes'
'Neither does he use his right name, nor permit it to be spelt or spoken', said Aragorn.


Yet, the Mouth of Sauron doesn't seem to have anything against saying "Sauron" Here's an example:
Quote:
'Surety you crave! Sauron gives none. If you sure for his clemency you must first do his bidding

'Sauron' isn't his 'right name', its a title - according to Encyc of Arda it means either 'The Abhorred' or Lord of Abomination'.

[Boromir88]

We all know Bilbo became the oldest hobbit to ever live. But, do we know BILBO cheated, when recording the dates. From the timeline in the back, in 3019 to 3020, Bilbo age seems to go from 119 to......130? Interesting, but I wonder if this was an editting problem, instead of a Tolkien slip up.

[Kuruharan]

*Sigh* Such killjoys…

Anyway, there is also a rather awkward gaffe in Appendix A, Gondor and the Heirs of Anarion regarding the aftermath of the Kin-Strife where Tolkien skips a generation or two and refers to the slain Minardil as the son, rather than great-grandson, of Eldacar.

The only reason I mention it is because I just noticed it the other day.

[Aiwendil]

Davem wrote:

'Sauron' isn't his 'right name', its a title - according to Encyc of Arda it means either 'The Abhorred' or Lord of Abomination'.

But Aragorn certainly seemed to think it was his "right name" - anyway, the implication was that Sauron would not use the name "Sauron".

Boromir wrote:

We all know Bilbo became the oldest hobbit to ever live. But, do we know BILBO cheated, when recording the dates. From the timeline in the back, in 3019 to 3020, Bilbo age seems to go from 119 to......130? Interesting, but I wonder if this was an editting problem, instead of a Tolkien slip up.

Well, Bilbo was 111 at the party - which is correct for its date 60 years after The Hobbit. Seventeen years pass between the party and the beginning of Frodo's quest, which would put Bilbo at 128. I believe that was 3018 (I could be wrong), which would make him 130 in 3020. So I think it was a typo or something.

[Mithalwen]

Well the one that gets me - perhaps cos I have an particular dislike of facial hair - is that in "The grey havens" Cirdan is given a beard ..... no elf has a beard........

But it is a bit mean .......

[dancing spawn of ungoliant]

Actually, some elves could grow a beard if they wanted to (I, however, like to imagine Cirdan without one). Further information about elves' beards

notice how the poems that are "roughly translated" from their original language always have perfect rhythm and rhyming?

Yeah, but so it goes every time when translating texts into other languages. At least all the Finnish translations of the songs and poems rhyme perfectly without changing the words too much.

[edit: noticed a typo...]

[Firefoot]

I do not see any error in this. He is 128 in 3018 (His farewell feast at 3001, plus 17 years), 129 in 3019 when the Hobbits return, and then there are two years before he and Frodo pass into the west. It is outlined very well in Appendix B, The Chief Days from the Fall of Barad-dûr to the End of the Third Age.

[Tuor of Gondolin]

This is not technically a mistake, but it's at least a surprising overlooked consideration by Tolkien. I don't believe he gives anywhere the names of Arwen and Aragorn's daughters. Surprising, given the well-known basis of Middle-earth in linguistics, and the way he could have worked in references, derivations, etc. to elves and humans throughout the three ages, perhaps even an allusion to Melian.

(And another bit I found irritating in the movies. Why couldn't all three children have been shown there, might have been rather cute?)

[Boromir88]

Well my eyes must have been playing tricks, I do see the 129, I thought it had said 119. I'm looking in the same spot as before, either I'm going crazy, I'm seeing things, or both. Sorry for the mistake.

[Azaelia of Willowbottom]

This is something that has been bugging me since I got the 3-in1 paperback in 2001...

I'm not sure if this is an error on Tolkien's part or an editing issue. I do know it's a mistake.

In the 1963ish version of LOTR that I read, in the Shadow of the Past chapter, Gandalf translates the Ring-inscription as "One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them, One Ring to bring them all, and in the darkness bind them."

In my Houghton-Mifflin paperback 3-in-1 version published 2001, edited by JRRT in 1966ish and his son Christopher since 1974ish (though this edit has only appeared in USA in the Houghton-Mifflin edition-Ballantine remains unchanged, at least according to the Note On The Text- since the 1980's...I'm confused!)

Anyway, in this more- recently-edited version, the translation Gandalf makes is only "One Ring bring them all and in the darkness bind them." (Though it is later translated properly during the Council of Elrond) I'm not sure who edited this, why, or when it happened. I do know it's a mistake. I don't speak Black Speech, but I know enough to know that the words, "ash nazg durbatuluk, ash nazg grimpatul, ash nazg thrakatuluk agh burzum-ishi krimpatul" matches up to the 1966 version of Gandalf's translation. (too lazy to type it all out again).

Was there a reason this was changed that I wasn't clued in to, or was a real mistake made (by Tolkien or otherwise)?

[Firefoot]

Azaelia, I have the same 3-in-1 version you do, and I have noticed this as well. I think it was probably an error in the printing rather than Tolkien's error.

There is another thread this reminded me of, Continuity Errors in Tolkien. It's not exactly the same, but some people here might be interested in it.

[Vanya]

I talked about this with a friend, and she gave a good explanation of use of the name of Sauron. He does use it, since it is well known to his enemies, in the process of negotiation. Remember Dain's story, when nazgul came several times with a message from Sauron, and to ask about hobbits- he uses name Sauron. As for the scene in front of the Morannon, the reason is the same - it is the name known to all the participants, so it is used. Orcs howewer are not alowed to use it (they call him the Eye, or else)

[Encaitare]

This isn't Tolkien's error, but it's still something that irritated me. In the movie-based book entitled "Weapons and Warfare" the author says Aragorn lived to be 188, when he really lived to be 210. I checked the appendices and was rather irritated at this oversight. The author knows so much about weaponry and armor and yet makes a blatant error such as this. Blugh.

[Kuruharan]

Encaitare

While it is drifting into a movie area...

In the movie-based book entitled "Weapons and Warfare"

I also happen to own that unfortunate tome and I fear that the whole book is a poorly researched piece of crap as far as Tolkien is concerned.

One has to wonder if the author read any of Tolkein's works at all.

[Legolas]

So according to this, Sauron built the foundations of Barad-dur, the lowest support of a tower, 600 years AFTER he began constructing it. However, after he did build the foundations, he built up the rest in only one year.

It's always a lot easier the second time you do something. He knew exactly how he wanted it, exactly how to get it that way, and so on...

Yet, the Mouth of Sauron doesn't seem to have anything against saying "Sauron"

I think this is something the Mouth is saying with purpose (against the usual) to show he is (as he thinks) second-in-command to the most powerful being in Middle-earth; it was an attempt to intimidate. This is a case similar to the avoidance of Black Speech (especially the name 'Nazgul'). Only Gandalf speaks the ring poem in Black Speech, and when he does, he strongly alarms others. Gandalf and Radagast are also the only characters that dare to speak 'Nazgul,' except for when Aragorn uses the term once in the safety of Minas Tirith after the Witch-King was destroyed.

Hm I would just like to say that in my second edition copy of Lord of the Rings it states in the appendices that Aragorn lives to be 190, yet in all the other book I have checked this it says differently, I think that some editors were slacking off when they edited that part.

[Mithalwen]

Well thank you for that enlightenment... but how horrible.... elves with beards eeeeeeuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuugggggggggggggggggghhhhhhh hhhhhh.....

[Encaitare]

Nyrende--

Confound these editors! Oh well, I suppose we cannot really blame them; it's heavy task to edit anything of Tolkien's. But I checked the Encyclopedia of Arda and it says he did indeed live to be 210.

[Lalwendë]

I've been meaning to post this possible mistake relating to the weapons of Legolas for some time - it was spotted by my boss, who then had me look up the references to exactly what weapons he had and when. So...is this a mistake?

Bk2 Ch3 - Legolas as he leaves Rivendell:

Legolas had a bow and a quiver, and at his belt a long white knife.

Bk2 Ch8 - Legolas as he leaves Lothlorien:

To Legolas she gave a bow such as the Galadhrim used, longer and stouter than the bows of Mirkwood, and strung with a string of elf-hair. With it went a quiver of arrows.

Note: Galadriel doesn't give him a new knife.

Bk3 Ch6 - Legolas entering Meduseld:

Then Legolas gave into his hand his silver-hafted knife, his quiver, and his bow. 'Keep these well," he said, 'for they come from the Golden Wood and the Lady of Lothlorien gave them to me."
Wonder came into the man's eyes, and he laid the weapons hastily by the wall, as if he feared to handle them. 'No man will touch them, I promise you," he said.

Is this a mistake, or was Tolkien interchanging silver and white as descriptive terms - in that silver can often look almost white when dulled?

[gorthaur_cruel]

Perhaps the blade was white while the haft was silver?

Oh, here's another one...

This is from "A Journey in the Dark" from the Fellowship of the Ring.

The Doors of Durin, Lord of Moria. Speak, friend, and enter. And underneath small and faint is written: I, Narvi, made them, Celebrimbor of Hollin drew these signs.'

Now, this door was made by the Elves Narvi and Celebrimbor from Eregion. This was during the Second Age, while the dwarves of Khazad Dum and Eregion had great friendship. Anybody spot Tolkien's mistake yet?

The name of "Moria" was not given to Khazad-dûm until the Dwarves deserted it; Tolkien says so a few times, but I could only find this from the Silmarillion:

Greatest of all the mansions of the Dwarves was Khazad-dûm, the Dwarrowdelf, Hadhodrond in the Elvish tongue, that was afterwards in the days of its darkness called Moria;

Also, the Encyclopedia of Arda says:

The name 'Moria' is often used as a synonym for Khazad-dûm. This is not strictly correct - 'Moria' was not used of the ancient Dwarf-city until after it was deserted by the Dwarves themselves - but by the late Third Age the two names had come to be used interchangeably.

Anyway, back to my point. The name of Moria was not used until around 1980 of the Third Age. Yet, Celebrimbor, who died 1697 of the Second Age, wrote Moria on the gates of Khazad-dûm before its name was even invented. After all, Moria merely means "Black Chasms", which wouldn't be a name given to the greatest Dwarf city at the time. Even if the Elves called it that secretly, surely the Dwarves wouldn't permit it. So we now have a second seer; Malbeth...and Celebrimbor, the one who foresaw Moria's future!

[Elladan and Elrohir]

Well, remember that Gandalf is translating here. He might be saying "Moria" when the writing actually reads "Hadhodrond". But you're probably right.

And to clarify, Unfinished Tales says that Narvi was a dwarf of Khazad-dum, not an Elf.

[Lush]

Haha, well at least Tolkien wasn't Ann Radcliffe. With all due respect to the true mistress of the pseudo-Gothic novel: her Mysteries of Udolpho was set in the 1500's, yet she wrote of Italians drinking coffee in cafes in Venice in that novel.


Mistakes happen to everyone. Some can be quite funny, actually. The Barad-dur references cracked me up originally. I guess I tried to imagine it...

[gorthaur_cruel]

Well, remember that Gandalf is translating here. He might be saying "Moria" when the writing actually reads "Hadhodrond".

Nope...the actual Elvish writing says this too:

Ennyn Durin Amn Moria: pedo mellon a minno. Im Narvi hain echant: Celebrimbor o Eregion teithant i thiw hin

[willkill4food]

Tolkien made quite a few mistakes in LotR in terms of coherence, and many many more in his other writings. One of the major ones that no one has pointed out so far is the "Nazgual Cant cross the river" and then having a Nazhgal fly overhead. But none of the mistakes that I have found bother me one bit, maybe its because its Tolkein's imaginary universe, and in my opinion, he can do what he pleases.

Cirdan does have a beard, it is not a mistake, but he is the only known elf to have a beard, but he deserves it too, living in the havens for like 7000 years helping other people go to the Undying-Lands while he must stay, all just because he was loyal to his king.

-willkill

[Tuor of Gondolin]

"One of the major ones that no one has pointed out so far is the "Nazgul Can't cross the river" and then having a Nazhgal fly overhead."
-------------------------

That type of "error" doesn't bother me too much, since one can postulate that
it's the power of Ulmo in running water that is unsettling to the bad guys, and
therefore being high up in the air Ulmo's influence wouldn't be felt. Recall that
the nazgul were airlifted across the Anduin, not rowed, and the fact that
throughout the first Three Ages Morgoth and Sauton never directly utilized
naval power, as the elves in Beleriand feared they might. Curiously, (in
"Letters"?) Tolkien is at a bit of a loss to explain the nazgul fear of water, but
Ulmo's power in running water seems a plausible explanation.

[the guy who be short]

Here are some well deserved explanations.

The building of Barad-Dur:
http://flyingmoose.org/tolksarc/theories/baraddur.htm

The name Moria on the doors of Durin:
http://flyingmoose.org/tolksarc/theories/cannibal.htm