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Old 09-13-2003, 07:14 PM   #1
Iarhen
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Silmaril The battle of Helm's Deep: All the Elves were killed?

Is it just me? Or were all the Lorien elves that went to aid the humans in Helm's Deep killed?<P>Because you cant see no elf inside the castle, when Aragorn and Theoden decide to ride their horses and bring the battle out to the field...<P>Im just wondering... that and the fact that despite it was a Lorien host, and Haldir was commanding it, Haldir speaks in name of Elrond and not in name of Galadriel or Celeborn... what happened there?
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Old 09-13-2003, 07:22 PM   #2
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you got a point ...and i thought the same also when he said they came in the name of elrond ...hmmmmm...(oh btw im new! hi!) (oh and i love usin the smiley's so ur gonna see lots of 'em..hehe )
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Old 09-13-2003, 07:37 PM   #3
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Hey!<P>Welcome to the Downs!!<P>Enjoy being dead!!!
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Old 09-13-2003, 07:43 PM   #4
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hey!!!! y does it say newly deceased!!! (remember im new im gonna ask a lot of questions) i read ur post and ur sayin enjoy being dead and i was totally lost...then i saw the thing near my name sayin newly deceased wut is up wit that?!?!?!
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Old 09-13-2003, 07:49 PM   #5
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Its just a saying and such a congratulation is always said to a new poster... As you progress, I think, your "conditon" gets worse... Im a wight currently, and next I think, Ill be a shadow Prince of Cardolan (or something like that).<P>But dont pay much attention tome... I really dont know exactly what is about...<P>
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Old 09-13-2003, 08:27 PM   #6
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That's an interesting note about those Elves! You really don't see any of them fighting when it came down to the charge of Eorlingas out the causeway. Still, they were skilled warriors...surely some of them survived?<P>Maybe they all got skeered and retreated to the Glittering Caves. <P>Actually, that's a thought...when Aragorn and Legolas and all of them were barricaded in the room and the Uruks tried to invade, there must have been a doorway to the back that led to the caves. Perhaps they ordered the knights (heh heh) to come out and ride with their king, and the Elves weren't told or something. Just guessing...
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Old 09-13-2003, 10:26 PM   #7
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I believe that the Elven company sent to Helm's Deep did all perish in battle. I think it's just Peter Jackson's way of highlighting the fact that Middle Earth is no longer a dwelling for the Elves and that it is their time of departure. <P>Logically though I think some should have survived. Did anyone notice in the scene where they are retreating to the keep that Legolas and another Elf are dragging a very reluctant Gimli back?
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Old 09-13-2003, 10:44 PM   #8
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1420!

Good question! I don't recall seeing a survivor-Elf - and even though they're a fading people and all that, it still seems like they would go down with more of a fight than that. If even a few untrained, underaged, underequipped Rohirrim can survive that assault, a few of the Elves should have been able to make it.<P>My guess is that the reason they all vanished at the end of the battle (presumably died) is that the post-battle logistics would get complicated, as in the books Elves were never at Helm's Deep. What would surviving Elves do? In terms of "renewing the old alliance" or whatever it was that Haldir said, it would make sense for them to stick with the Rohirrim, as the battles are by no means over. It would seem a little callous to go "Well, that one's over. We're off to the Havens. See ya at the end of the world." But if they stay, then you're going to have these very noncanonical Elves tagging along with the Rohirrim all the way through ROTK (or possibly going with Aragorn to the Paths - they would fit in better there than at the Muster of Rohan, but they'd still be oddly placed anywhere).<P>So they probably died because PJ couldn't figure out what to do with them afterwards. Just my $0.02.
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Old 09-14-2003, 01:46 AM   #9
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Hello there. I'm a traveller in these parts come from distant lands. I hope you will bear with me for a while. <P>I have wondered about why Peter Jackson made Elrond the leader of all the Elves. At first I couldn't understand it at all. Why was Haldir coming with a message from Elrond? In fact, it makes good sense for this to happen in the film. It binds together the Arwen /Elrond scene to where the action is (and Aragorn) very nicely and it helps us to see the Elves as a cohesive group rather than the fractured communities that they are in the book.<BR>Imagine if Haldir had said 'I come from Galadriel', it would not have had the same power. Galadriel is an observer, the narrater, an ethereal being. Elrond is the mover and shaker in Middle Earth, it was his Council everybody went to. Rivendell is brim full of counsellors and of course, he has human blood in his veins. The sense we get of telepathic communication between Elrond and Galadriel is a masterful sleight of hand on behalf of Peter Jackson. All the logistics of distance are dealt with at once.<P>I have to say I think all the Elves cop it at Helms Deep, the only way they could deal with them afterwards is to reference the oncoming battle at Dol Guldur, but I doubt it.
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Old 09-14-2003, 08:39 AM   #10
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Well, the fact that P.J. would not know what to do with the elves after the battle is true... But again, he could make something up as "we are needed in Lorien... Dol Guldur is attacking us"<P><BR>But the main thing is... Elrond is known only among a few. And I know hes a much more "human" character than Galadriel... being not considered a treacherous witch or a dangerous sorceress...<P>But in terms of authority, Galadriel (I think) is way above Elrond. If Lorien is sending its troops to aid Rohan, then why not speaking on behalf of Celeborn?<P>Again... Elrond seems a much more trustworthy and more terrain character than Galadriel, but thats among a few... Outside of those few (the Fellowship, the Royal Classes of the Dwarves) they were both pretty estranged from the outside world...
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Old 09-14-2003, 06:40 PM   #11
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I agree with Glad. Besides it has always been my belief that the Elven realms have been more connected to each other than the kingdoms of men. Elrond and Galadriel most likely work together on any problems the Elves face so even though the troops were from Lothlorien they came with Elrond's blessing. Another off topic example of this is in the book and the extended version of FOTR. When Haldir spoke to Legolas he knew perfectly well who he was even when the Mirkwood elves are sundered from their kin in Rivendel and Lothlorien. These connections are needed for there are few elves left. In my opinion without these bonds even with their great power the elves would have fallen long before the men if Sauron had succeeded.<P>Anyway...back to the troops. It seems that they were all killed off. Yet since the Dundain and Elladan and Elrohir have been most likely cut out, if there are any that did survive they might have a larger part to play in ROTK.
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Old 09-14-2003, 08:01 PM   #12
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hey wut up people! about the elves in the battle of helm's deep...i think i did see some still fighting when they bring the fight out to the field..but then again thats just me....also i still dont understand why haldir said they came in the name of elrond because first of all arent celeborn and galadriel like one of the highest elves and isnt elrond galadriel's kid?? so wouldnt that make her higher than him thus those elves would go to helm's deep in the name of galadriel (or celeborn)?? orrrr....(this is my random reason) remember the part where galadriel and elrond are talking like telepathically or wutever u call it?? well the part where galadriel says "should we leave the fate of middle earth to men or do we help them..." (that was totally paraphrased) i think maybe when they decided to send help galadriel told haldir to tell the men they came in the name of elrond ....well that is wut i think although everyone else had much more valid points then i did.... <P><BR>"...not all those who wander are lost.."<BR> -J.R.R. Tolkein
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Old 09-14-2003, 09:08 PM   #13
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Sting

i think galadirel's kid was actually celebrian, who is elrond's wife and arwen's mother. one theory me and my friends have is that perhaps aragorn sent the surviving elves to go escort the women and children of Rohan through the "other way out of the caves" that Gamling told him about. but that's just our idea. most likely you guys are right saying that they died because PJ didn't know how to get them out of the scene in time for ROTK.
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Old 09-14-2003, 11:21 PM   #14
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I believe Elrond could technically claim kingship over all the Noldor and Teleri. Celeborn was under Thingol, and Elrond was the grandson of Dior (Thingol's heir) so it's possible that Celeborn would accept Elrond as his leader. Galadriel was Noldorin, and Elrond is the eldest of Fingolfin's house (the Noldorin house that ruled in ME), so it's possible that Galadriel would accept Elrond as her leader.<P>Plus, Galadriel and her realm were not as well known, possibly because Elrond received visitors from the outside much more often than Galadriel did. I really wasn't surprised that Haldir spoke the name of Elrond.<P>And regarding the survival of the elves at Helm's Deep, I just figured that all the elves were dead. After all, they were out in the open behind the wall when all of the orcs broke through. The men of Rohan on the other hand were up on the fortress the whole time. They weren't nearly as vulnerable. All of the elves were on the wall or behind it, the two places that got completely over run.
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Old 09-15-2003, 05:32 AM   #15
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Technically it is right that the elves were in the places that would have suffered the most losses. The fact that they all died therefore being a possibility.<P>However I reckon that PJ after filming the scenes with the elves got reminded by one of his assistants that no elves should have partaken in the battle so he simply killed them off instead of deleting the scenes.
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Old 09-15-2003, 09:36 AM   #16
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<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> However I reckon that PJ after filming the scenes with the elves got reminded by one of his assistants that no elves should have partaken in the battle so he simply killed them off instead of deleting the scenes. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Whether you agree with the change or not, there is no way PJ didn't know that there were no elves at Helm's Deep in the book. This was a conscious decision on his part.<P>Personally, I don't like the statistical improbability of having Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli being the only survivors of the soldiers stationed on the Deeping Wall. This can be addressed rather easily by having a couple of elves being in the background early in RotK (or even better, the EE TTT). <P>Somehow, I don't think this will happen because then people will be asking what happened to them. Did they just join the forces of the Rohirrim? Did they go home? Perhaps they should have journeyed with Aragorn? No, likely the simplest thing for PJ to do is just not to show them anymore and leave it at that.<P>H.C.
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Old 09-15-2003, 11:28 AM   #17
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Silmaril

I disagree witht he whole theory of Celeborn and Galadriel accepting Elrond's leadership. Probably Celeborn would, BUT Galadriel wouldnt because:<P>1. She's one of the eldest elves in M.E., second only to Cirdan, so in terms of age, shes even older than Elrond. More experienced, she has that advantage over him.<BR>2. She's the Highest Noldorin elf in M.E., because of her direct link with her father, Finarfin. <BR>3. Being as proud as she is, and as she was, she would not take the leadership of someone she considers her inferior.<BR>4. She's Elrond's mother in law, giving her a somewhat high position over Elrond.<BR>5. In terms of power, even thought they had both great rings of power, I think its off the discussion who has more power here. Elrond was NOT the one fighting mentally with Sauron...<BR>6. She's wiser than he. The only reason why people didnt go into Caras Galadhon to ask for Galadriels advice was because she didnt wanted anyone to enter her realm without good reason.<BR>7. And finally, Lothlorien is a much more important and bigger realm than Rivendell. Even the Kingdom of the Wood, Thranduil's, is bigger. In those terms, Elrond's is the one with the least advantage.<P>So, concluidng, there's no reason why the Lorien elves should speak in the name of Elrond. Their leaders were Galadriel and Celeborn, NOT Elrond...
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Old 09-15-2003, 11:42 AM   #18
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Probaly the mistrust that Rohan had against Lothlorien and against the Lady G was the reason why the host spoke in name of Elrond...<P>How would you react when a company of mysterious elves from a place you fear speak in name of a woman accused of witchcraft and of whom almost everyone is too scared of her power to go near her realm?<P>That's what has been making sense for me...
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Old 09-15-2003, 12:59 PM   #19
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<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>hey!!!! y does it say newly deceased!!! (remember im new im gonna ask a lot of questions) i read ur post and ur sayin enjoy being dead and i was totally lost...then i saw the thing near my name sayin newly deceased wut is up wit that?!?!?!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Read the FAQ.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Probaly the mistrust that Rohan had against Lothlorien and against the Lady G was the reason why the host spoke in name of Elrond...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Possbily, but is this a good explanation:<P> All Haldir said was, "I bring word from Elrond of Rivendell...". At least that's what I think he said. That really doesn't imply to me that they were sent from Rivendell, or under Elrond's command. I think it's likely enough that Elrond wished for a message to be sent (which I'm sure Galadriel wouldn't have had a problem with), & so Haldir included it in his greeting. Also, if the Rohirrim did mistrust The Lady of the Wood (& they did), then they might've felt uncomfatable around elves under her command. Hardly something you want when you're out numbered 10,000 to 600. Perhaps that's why Haldir only mentioned Elrond's message, & not that they were sent by Celeborn & Galadriel.
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Old 09-15-2003, 02:56 PM   #20
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In truth, I think the line was more for the audience than anything. Last we saw, Elrond was being berated by Galadriel as to whether to send help. Haldir's line was to inform the audience that they are there with Elrond's wishes. We already knew Galadriel wanted to send help but if Elrond's name was not mentioned, it would have left the impression Galadriel was acting alone.<P>Personally, I found the line rather clumsy.<P>H.C.
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Old 09-15-2003, 08:02 PM   #21
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I didnt like the line at all, too...<P>But what could possibly be wrong if Galadriel was acting alone? Putting aside all the mistrust against the Lady of Light, why would Elrond's acceptance be needed?<P>The armies come from Lorien, with no support from Rivendell. Why would GAladriel want Elrond's support? I cant imagine a reason...<P>And if you think that GAladriel would not want to contradict his son in law, then just wait for ROTK. From what Ive seen so far, Galadriel supports Arwens decision of sticking with Elessar, despite the fact that Elrond is against it... And Galadriel played match maker when Aragorn was in her realm and her grand daughter was visiting... Against Elrond's desires too...<P>So?
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Old 09-15-2003, 09:04 PM   #22
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___________________________________________<BR>quo te:<BR>Possbily, but is this a good explanation:<P>All Haldir said was, "I bring word from Elrond of Rivendell...". At least that's what I think he said. That really doesn't imply to me that they were sent from Rivendell, or under Elrond's command. I think it's likely enough that Elrond wished for a message to be sent (which I'm sure Galadriel wouldn't have had a problem with), & so Haldir included it in his greeting. Also, if the Rohirrim did mistrust The Lady of the Wood (& they did), then they might've felt uncomfatable around elves under her command. Hardly something you want when you're out numbered 10,000 to 600. Perhaps that's why Haldir only mentioned Elrond's message, & not that they were sent by Celeborn & Galadriel. <BR>unquote<BR>___________________________________ ________<P>i agree with that but i just want to add a few things....well first i do agree with that fact that maybe Elrond added that little message but Galdriel sent the "troops" or whatever you would like to call them however in his message he mentions that there was once an alliance between elves and men and that they have come to renew that alliance(i dont remember everything he said so do forgive me if i messed it up) he might have said that to either show that he was apart of sending them orrr since rohan wasnt very friendly with galadriel maybe to show that this was sent to help them and not to cause trouble....(which is pretty obvious they never would've wanted in the first place) also since troops were sent i feel it shows that Galadriel wants to push aside differences between elves and men and dwarves and fight for middle-earth and win it.....<BR>oh and changing subject but iarhen???(sorry if i spelled it wrong!) didnt u just answer your own question??hehe
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Old 09-15-2003, 11:35 PM   #23
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Iarhen, you're greatly underestimating Elrond.<P>Yes, Galadriel was proud, but that's not necessarily a plus. She seemed to love advertising her power (and liked her subjects to do it too). She was always saying how she did this and she could do that, but how much of it is accurate?<P>For instance, she thought she could take the ring and overthrow Sauron, but Tolkien said in letter 246...<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> In the 'Mirror of Galadriel', 1381, it appears that Galadriel conceived of herself as capable of wielding the Ring and supplanting the Dark Lord. If so, so also were the other guardians of the Three, especially Elrond. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>The ring just wanted her to think that she could, just like Sauron may have just wanted her to think she was reading him. As you can see, we shouldn't put too much trust in her proud words.<P>I won't even mention that the quote also points to Elrond being more powerful. <P>We receive more accurate information about a character when we consider the observations of others rather than the self-praise of a proud heart.<P>Perhaps we don't fully realize Elrond's abilities because he doesn't flaunt them.<P>So, now we ask, "What are some observations that others have made about Elrond?"<P>Here are some...<P>Bilbo, in The Hobbit-<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> He was as noble and as fair in face as an elf-lord, as strong as a warrior, as wise as a wizard, as venerable as a king of dwarves, and as kind as summer. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>He's sounding impressive so far.<BR>Here's an exchange between Frodo and Gandalf in FOTR-<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> 'What about Rivendell and the Elves? Is Rivendell safe?'<BR>'Yes, at present, until all else is conquered.' <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Rivendell would stand the longest, eh?<BR>Here's Gandalf in FOTR musing to himself about Frodo-<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> 'He is not half through yet, and to what he will come in the end not even Elrond can foretell.' <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>So if Elrond can't see his future, then no one can. I guess he has a better mirror.<BR>And then this obvious and much overlooked quote from FOTR-<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> 'Who made the flood?' asked Frodo.<BR>'Elrond commanded it,' answered Gandalf. 'The river of this valley is under his power, and it will rise in anger when he has great need to bar the Ford.' <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Anyone else think it's amazing that he controls a river?? When else do you see something like that?<P>I guess having an angelic being as an ancestor definitely didn't hurt Elrond.<P>Also, Elrond is the undisputed king of lore and healing. Once again, he sounds rather impressive.<P>Elrond is the product of the ruling house of the Noldor, the ruling house of the Teleri, the three ruling houses of men (Beor, Hador, and Haleth), and Melian (a holy being like Gandalf and Sauron). He should not be so quickly dismissed as Galadriel's inferior (especially with statements like JRRT made in his letter that hint at Elrond having the greater power).<P>Maybe Elrond wasn't superior, but you certainly cannot state without a doubt that he was inferior.<P>(and for you movie only people, forgive all my book quotes, but I thought they were needed because the movie just doesn't do Elrond justice, the movie almost makes him look moody and cowardly, and that's not how JRRT wrote him)
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Old 09-16-2003, 04:41 AM   #24
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And remember Rivendell still houses many might Elf-lords, such as Glorfindel. Galadrial was the mightiest of the Noldor (alongside Feanor) but the greatest of the Elves came from the line of Luthien.
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Old 09-16-2003, 07:08 AM   #25
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<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> But what could possibly be wrong if Galadriel was acting alone? Putting aside all the mistrust against the Lady of Light, why would Elrond's acceptance be needed? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I think the line had less to do with the politics or levels of power between these two characters and more to do with character development. We are so used to the archetypical characters that Tolkien has created, but Jackson isn't doing that. He's having the characters growing and changing. He's doing it with Aragorn and Faramir, and he's doing it with Elrond. In the movie, Elrond is ready to leave and to take his daughter with him. <P>The line from Haldir is more about showing the audience that Elrond is begining to turn a corner regarding these issues. A change in attitude that will continue into RotK.<P>H.C.
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Old 09-16-2003, 10:27 AM   #26
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<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> I think the line had less to do with the politics or levels of power between these two characters and more to do with character development. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Yes, very true.<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> He's having the characters growing and changing. He's doing it with Aragorn and Faramir, and he's doing it with Elrond. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>And that's probably my biggest complaint about the movie. Honestly, once people become adults they are, for the most part, who they are. What's wrong with having characters that are good and wise from the beginning and don't have to overcome some flaw on the screen?<P>What are the chances that this many people all change their character in such a small window of time? How often do people really change their character? And when they do, is it that quick? It all seems so artificial and unrealistic.
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Old 09-16-2003, 11:00 AM   #27
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I must say that I think I really am underestimating Elrond... Probably because of the fact that the movies have influenced me a lot, more than what the books did so far...<P>You are right, we should believe more what other characters say about the one we are analyzing than what the character says of him or herself.<P>Regarding the quotes, I must confess that much of the opinion I had from Elrond was changed when I read your quotes.<P>But as agreeing as I may be about them, we have to underline the fact that if Elrond is not inferior to Galadriel, he is, at max, her equal.<P>Because I do remember that in FOTR, Gandalf tells Frodo, after the quote were he states that Rivendell will fall after all is conquered, that outside of Imladris there are powers that still dwell.<P>JRRT says that Bombadil's house will be the last place to fall to Sauron's might. Then he says its Rivendell. Then he says that Lorien will stand against everything until the Dark Lord himself shows up in Loriens borders, because otherwise the forces of Evil would STILL not able to penetrate Galadriel's realm (without the physical presence and support of Sauron).<P>In the UT, Galadriel is stated to be "mightiest of the eldar" (in "Of Galadriel and Celeborn") and I suppose that in that part JRRT is counting out Luthien.<P>That and many more quotes state Galadriel's grandness among the Eldar. Even in the last lines of ROTK, it is stated that Galadriel is has a high position even among the Eldar in Valinor.<P>I think that probably the reason why JRRT said that Elrond would be especially capable, among the guardians of the 3, of weilding the One Ring was because Galadriel still had a terrible lust for power. With Elrond, instead, it would be a better Elf Lord with the one ring because his main goal was not power. And then the specially capable would mean capability in terms of elven qualities.<P>And my guess is that even in that point, Galadriel is closer to men than Elrond. She says that men are specially weak when tempted by power. And that comes from the woman that was one of the leaders of the Noldorin rebellion... a woman whos goal was to have a kingdom of her own...<P>And probably Sauron let Galadriel believe was reading his thoughts... but again, if he was just pretending to be defeated in their mental struggles, why did she have so much information that was used in the keeping and protecting of the elven realm of Lorien?
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Old 09-16-2003, 10:31 PM   #28
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<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> JRRT says that Bombadil's house will be the last place to fall to Sauron's might. Then he says its Rivendell. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>The quote about Bombadil was made by Glorfindel. He said, "I think that in the end, if all else is conquered, Bombadil will fall, Last as he was First".<P>Now Glorfindel is an awesome guy, but we can't necessarily assume his assumption is correct (I bet you don't see assume and assumption in the same sentence very often). And by the way, did you notice he began his statement with <B>I think</B>. Gandalf didn't start his statement about Rivendell being the last place to fall with <B>I think</B>. Yes it's true that Gandalf said there were other powers, but he still said that Rivendell would last the longest.<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Then he says that Lorien will stand against everything until the Dark Lord himself shows up in Loriens borders <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>It's very possible that Rivendell wouldn't fall either unless Sauron himself came.<P>By the way, about Lorien not falling until Sauron comes, where is that quote? It sounds familiar to me, but I can't remember who said it or when.<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> I think that probably the reason why JRRT said that Elrond would be especially capable, among the guardians of the 3, of weilding the One Ring was because Galadriel still had a terrible lust for power. With Elrond, instead, it would be a better Elf Lord with the one ring because his main goal was not power. And then the specially capable would mean capability in terms of elven qualities. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Tolkien specifically said that Elrond was especially "capable of wielding the Ring and supplanting the Dark Lord" if Galadriel was capable herself. When it comes to weilding the Ring and supplanting the Dark Lord, being a nice, not power hungry person doesn't help. You need sheer power. And once he took up the ring and started using it, he wouldn't be the same guy anyway (no one would be the same if they used it).<P>And also, regarding the mental struggles, I doubt Galadriel ever dealt with Sauron's full attention. Remember this line from ROTK?<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> and even at that moment all the hosts of Mordor trembled, doubt clutched their hearts, their laughter failed, their hands shook and their limbs were loosed. The Power that drove them on and filled them with hate and fury was wavering, its will was removed from them; and now looking in the eyes of their enemies they saw a deadly light and were afraid. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>That quote is not from when the ring is destroyed, that's what happens when Sauron realizes that the ring is near the Cracks of Doom and he focuses all his attention there.<P>Sauron had to constantly focus some of his will on his many servants, or they would act the way they did in the above passage. Things wouldn't get done the way he wanted. He was also looking for the ring all the time, checking the scene in his palantir, corrupting Denethor and Saruman, and doing other things that required his attention. He was spread thin, and was a great distance from Lorien.<P>And what did he care if Galadriel knew (or thought she knew) a few things? It wasn't as if he was focusing on her. Gondor came first. If Gondor would've fallen, then he'd take out Rohan, and only then would Lorien have the majority of his attention.<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> I must say that I think I really am underestimating Elrond... Probably because of the fact that the movies have influenced me a lot, more than what the books did so far <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>It's not your fault. I'm sure that the vast majority of people who have seen the movie and read the book have had a similar experience. Just the other day when my dad and I were watching TTT, he said "Wait, in the book wasn't Eomer already in Helm's Deep with Aragorn?" I had to think for a second before answering "Yeah, he was". I had to stop and remember what was movie and what was book. That's why I don't really like events and characters being changed in the movies.<p>[ September 17, 2003: Message edited by: the phantom ]
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Old 09-18-2003, 03:01 PM   #29
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Tolkien contradicts a lot when it comes to the statememts and opinions of different characters and even himself. I don't have a clue why he wrote this way, maybe it was out of forgetfulness, but I believe that he contradicts himself to show that there is no one thing that is powerful above all in Middle-Earth except Sauron but only if he won. Each has their strengths and weaknesses and their areas of expertise which makes everyone powerful.
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Old 09-18-2003, 05:29 PM   #30
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I noticed that after Haldir died all of he elves also dissipared but i also feel that is they way pj told us that the elves rule as the high race of middle earth is over and they need to depart.
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Old 09-19-2003, 08:46 AM   #31
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Actually, there were no Elves at Helm's Deep in the book. There are very few Elves even in TTT book at all. PJ had to kill all the Elves at the Battle of Helm's Deep to regain the continuity of the books.
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Old 09-19-2003, 08:55 AM   #32
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<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Tolkien contradicts a lot when it comes to the statememts and opinions of different characters and even himself. I don't have a clue why he wrote this way, maybe it was out of forgetfulness, but I believe that he contradicts himself to show that there is no one thing that is powerful above all in Middle-Earth except Sauron but only if he won. Each has their strengths and weaknesses and their areas of expertise which makes everyone powerful. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Silmiel of Imladris: I think the contradictions lie in that Tolkien technically only published two books about Middle Earth, the Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings (the stories of Tom Bombadil not withstanding). Everything else was published posthumously by Chistopher from notes and incomplete writings by JRR. He had to fill in a lot of blanks and this is where I believe the contradictions come from.
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Old 09-19-2003, 11:40 AM   #33
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And the definitive quote about the true power match between Galadriel and Elrond comes from the Silmarillion, where JRRT says:<P>"A queen she was of the woodland Elves, the wife of Celeborn of Doriath, yet she herself was of the Noldor and remembered the DAy before days in Valinor, and<B> she was the mightiest and fairest of all the Elves that remained in Middle Earth.</B>"<P><BR>Take THAT Elrond!
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Old 09-20-2003, 12:20 AM   #34
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Hey, I just thought I'd post something from a thread on the books a while back where we were discussing quotes like "Galadriel was the greatest of the Noldor, except Fëanor maybe..." and "Who together with the greatest of all the Eldar, Lúthien Tinúviel, daughter of Elu Thingol...". After another member noticed the ambiguity of the terms in the quotes, I had this to say-<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> That is exactly why I never put too much stock in those "greatest" quotes (about Luthien, and about Feanor and Galadriel). I would assume that those quotes mean that in Tolkien's overall definition of greatness (combination of whatever characteristics he thought were the most important) that they came out ahead. But BY NO MEANS do they mean the MOST POWERFUL (or anything else for that matter, they were merely his overall appraisal of their character from his perspective, and possibly he was considering things that we would choose not to and not weighing things that we think are important). <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Your quote says "she was the mightiest and fairest of all the Elves remaining in ME". So, what does that actually mean?<P>When a king is called a mighty king, does that mean he is skilled in battle, a great general or commander, rules over a great kingdom, or what? We don't know. And also, just to show the frailty of the quote, note it said "of all the Elves", so technically there could be a mortal man that could be mightier than Galadriel. But that seems ridiculous. As you can see, the quote is just too vague.<P>And now for a demonstration of my point.<P>Here's those two quotes from earlier-<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Galadriel was the greatest of the Noldor, except Fëanor maybe <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Who together with the greatest of all the Eldar, Lúthien Tinúviel <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>If we treat these quotes the way many like to treat them (with "greatest" meaning anything they decide they want it to mean to support their argument), then Feanor is tied with Galadriel and they're both behind Luthien. But what about this quote from the Sil-<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> For Feanor was made the mightiest in all parts of body and mind, in valour, in endurance, in beauty, in understanding, in skill, in strength and in subtlety alike, of all the Children of Iluvatar, and a bright flame was in him. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>The mightiest in <I>all parts of body and mind</I>, huh? That doesn't leave much room for competition. Yet, he was named only equal to Galadriel in the "greatness" department (and lesser than Luthien). How does this make sense? I guess because JRRT's ambiguous "greatest" and "mightiest" quotes weren't all inclusive. "Greatest" could mean the best known or the most beloved. "Mightiest" could mean largest quantity when applied to specific traits, but when said in a general sense could mean ruled over the largest realm (or something similar).<P>And notice one of the things Feanor was the mightiest in was "beauty". But wasn't Luthien supposed to be the most beautiful?<P>As you can see, you can't justify anything specific using those vague sort of quotes such as "Galadriel was the mightiest...".<P>Take THAT, anyone who wants to try to prove conclusively and textually that anyone is better than anyone else.<P>Tolkien did us all a favor and left us room to interpret things for ourselves.
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Old 09-20-2003, 05:16 PM   #35
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I think that what could have happened was once the Elves saw Haldir, their leader, fall, they figured that they too could sacrifice themselves so that the Rohirrim could escape. That would have covered everything except for the fact that I have distinctly seen at least a couple of Elves run into that "back room" after Aragorn, right after the Uruk-Hai burst in through the doors.
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Old 09-26-2003, 11:42 AM   #36
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Now correct me if I am wrong (I lent my book to my friend so I can't look it up) but I thought that the elves weren’t supposed to be there in the first place!<BR>I like that part but I'm pretty sure the elves were out of line... <P>Help me out on this one...
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Old 09-26-2003, 11:46 AM   #37
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quote:<BR>"Actually, there were no Elves at Helm's Deep in the book. There are very few Elves even in TTT book at all. PJ had to kill all the Elves at the Battle of Helm's Deep to regain the continuity of the books."<BR>- kboleen <P>so never mind... I really want my book right now...
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Old 09-27-2003, 01:04 PM   #38
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Actually I don't think we will ever know if any of the Elves survived the Battle of Helm's Deep.
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Old 09-27-2003, 01:13 PM   #39
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I think you are right ArathorofBarahir. <BR>And wecome to the Downs!
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Old 09-30-2003, 06:58 PM   #40
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You know that really irks me. Haldir and a horde of Lorien elves are in Helms Deep where they aren't supposed to be and don't fit well but PJ cuts out Elladan and Elrohir who are supposed to travel the Paths of the Dead with Aragorn! Augh!<P><BR>Oh BTW remember Elrond was also great-grandson of the king of Gondolin AND second cousin of King Ereinion Gil-Galad. I'd classify that as a leadership right.
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