Men before Elves?? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Carannillion · 01-20-2002, 11:20 AM

The Elves are the firstborn of ME, and Men are the second, the Children of Ilúvatar. BUT, the so-called 'Woses', the wild forest-men of the Druadan forest in Anórien were - according to a certain statement made by their chieftain Ghân-buri-Ghân during the War of the Ring - before even the elves...

Ghân-buri-Ghân says to Theoden that his people is an ancient people, and that they saw the other men (or something like that, 'men' here being an issue of discussion) comeout of the water.

Questions:

1. Did Men come out of the water in the beginning, like the Elves?

2. If not, then Ghân-bu... refers to his people having seen the Elves rise from the water?!?!?!?

3. If Men also came from the water, where did the Woses come from, and what are they?

Taken from David Day's 'A Tolkien Bestiary':

Quote:

WOSES In the War of the Ring a strange primitive folk named the Woses came to aid the Rohirrim and Dúnedain (...) lived in the ancient Forest of Druadan (...) they had lived as naked animals invisibly among the trees for many Ages and cared not for the company of other people. The Men of Gondor (...) believed that they were descended from the even more ancient Púkel-men.

Anyone??

***Sharkû*** · 01-20-2002, 11:30 AM

Quote:

Wild Men live here before Stone-houses; before Tall Men come up out of Water.

I think we shouldn't over-interprate this quote. The meaning which is in full coherence with the rest of the mythology would be that the Wild Men lived in the Druwaith Iaur and at the foot of the White Mountains before the Numenorëans came in the Second Age. I doubt Ghân-buri-Ghân meant anything else, or could have meant anything else even. Oral tradition tends to have its problems with more than four or five thousand years of history.

Carannillion · 01-20-2002, 11:33 AM

Ahh. Very enlightening (actually, why the heck didn't I think of that myself? Oh well, I'll just stay in my little dark corner and see if I can make my brain grow before I try to post again [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] )

Man-of-the-Wold · 01-21-2002, 05:14 AM

Nah, very simple explanation. Ghan-buri-Ghan is refering to the Numenoreans coming out of the sea metaphorically. One has to thing in anthropological terms of a primitive people without words for ships, sailing and so forth.

**************

"The Eldar called them Druedain, admitting them to the rank of the Atani, for they were much loved while they lasted."

[ January 21, 2002: Message edited by: Man-of-the-Wold ]

01-20-2002, 11:33 AM	#3
Carannillion Wight Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Mici Firya Posts: 135	Ahh. Very enlightening (actually, why the heck didn't I think of that myself? Oh well, I'll just stay in my little dark corner and see if I can make my brain grow before I try to post again [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] ) __________________ A cry for the people, but there's noone there to hear...

01-21-2002, 05:14 AM	#4
Man-of-the-Wold Wight Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: With Tux, dread poodle of Pinnath Galin Posts: 239	Nah, very simple explanation. Ghan-buri-Ghan is refering to the Numenoreans coming out of the sea metaphorically. One has to thing in anthropological terms of a primitive people without words for ships, sailing and so forth. ************** "The Eldar called them Druedain, admitting them to the rank of the Atani, for they were much loved while they lasted." [ January 21, 2002: Message edited by: Man-of-the-Wold ] __________________ The hoes unrecked in the fields were flung, __ and fallen ladders in the long grass lay __ of the lush orchards; every tree there turned __ its tangled head and eyed them secretly, __ and the ears listened of the nodding grasses; __ though noontide glowed on land and leaf, __ their limbs were chilled.