Why was the army of the dead at Minas Tirith? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

thewichtking · 01-11-2009, 11:50 AM

in the movies why was the army of the dead at minis triris (i know i spelt it wrong) they only had to fight the corsairs then aragorn let them go gee wiz how mest up can you make a movie

Thinlómien · 01-11-2009, 01:59 PM

I think that's actually one of the worst parts in the whole movie trilogy. In the book, the victory in Pelennor Fields was the great victory of Men. In the movies, it's the great victory of Flubber. (Or some other ugly green mess, who cares.

) That really annoys me.

I guess the excuse is that it would have been too complicated to do according the book and to include the fights in Lebennin, Lamedon and Ethir (or so, forgive me if I've mixed up the names, Gondorian geography never was my strong point

) or that they couldn't resist giving the Flubber a lot of screentime by bringing it to Minas Tirith. I think they could have just shown what happened in a minute or so: quick cuts to the ghosts fighting the pirates, the "liberation" of the Gondorians, their leaders pledging allegiance to Aragorn and the armies boarding on the ships. I think that would have been nice. But no, of course not, you have to have the Flubber there to mess up and steal the show...

Beregond · 01-11-2009, 02:03 PM

Indeed. Their presence at Minas Tirith absolutely killed all sense of sacrifice, glory, courage, despair, hope, and anything else that made the Battle of the Pelennor one of the most riveting, inspiring chapters in the Return of the King. All of the suspense: completely wiped out. The entire battle before the ships arrived: made moot by the arrival of the the Dead, who erased the enemy almost as efficiently as they erased the credibility of the scene. I can hardly stand to watch that part.

Thinlómien · 01-11-2009, 02:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beregond

Indeed. Their presence at Minas Tirith absolutely killed all sense of sacrifice, glory, courage, despair, hope, and anything else that made the Battle of the Pellenor one of the most riveting, inspiring chapters in the Return of the King. All of the suspense: completely wiped out. The entire battle before the ships arrived: made moot by the arrival of the the Dead, who erased the enemy almost as efficiently as they erased the credibility of the scene. I can hardly stand to watch that part.

Oh, yes, right you are. I forgot that it ruined the suspense as well: that's another key point. I mean, couldn't they at least have been a little less effective? And I don't think it looks in any way fine or spirits-lifting when the army sweeps to the city - it's more like "oh goodness, now those cold dead men kill all the poor people within".

Beregond · 01-11-2009, 02:27 PM

Quite. Anti-climactic is the word.

Quote:

the victory in Pelennor Fields was the great victory of Men. In the movies, it's the great victory of Flubber.

Very well put!

I missed that point. But you're entirely right. It fits in with the movie maker's obsession with Men being weak and useless.

I don't buy your first excuse for the filmmaker's. They didn't really have to show the battles in...those places in S. Gondor. They could have made a big scene with the taking of the Corsair ships, bid goodbye and thank you very much to Flubber, briefly show citizens of S. Gondor boarding those ships, and have the rest of the Battle take place around Minas Tirith.

And there's no way that non-Tolkien fans appreciated the Flubberization of the Pelennor any more than we do....is there?

Tuor in Gondolin · 01-11-2009, 08:09 PM

It's hard to say which was worse, the green slime at the Battle of
Minas Tirith or Gandalf assaulting the Stewart of Gondor in
direct contravention to his instructions. Actually, I suppose the
green slime, especially since in the movie there is no reason Aragorn
then lets them go, not even letting them get in a little dwarf
tossing. All it would have taken was a brief scene of Aragorn letting the green
slime go (even quoting the book), and rallying the Gondorians.
Btw, PJ and friends missed one of the great scenes in the book of
Eomer seeing the black ships Arwen banner and tossing up his sword
and the bells of Gondor ringing. (An echo of Churchill's having the
bells in British churches ringing [after Alamein?] )?

Lush · 01-12-2009, 05:06 AM

The special effects were bad. It was Flubber... or else something that was left over on the cutting room floor of "The Frighteners."

But then again, the movie was already so unwieldy. I can see how the plot decision was made, easily enough.

Lariren Shadow · 01-12-2009, 07:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beregond

And there's no way that non-Tolkien fans appreciated the Flubberization of the Pelennor any more than we do....is there?

Some of them did. I happened to be sitting next to them when I saw it in theatres and they thought it was "awesome".

I do wish they had made it more of a victory of men rather than of dead men. I always liked Return of the King the best and, while I did enjoy the movie when I first saw it(purely as a movie, I kind of always thought of them as two different entities) I thought it looked amazing at times. There were other times when I cringed away from what was happening on screen(really dead guys all over Minas Tirith, really?!)

I can also see where PJ might have thought "ok look at all these new places...look at the average movie go-er...dead guys win at Pelennor."

In the EE they at least have the taking of the ships in. Though its just not the same.

Morthoron · 01-12-2009, 08:13 AM

The scrubbing bubbles were absolutely necessary to clean the white walls of Minas Tirith. The stonework was absolutely filthy!

Mekor Karun · 01-13-2009, 07:58 PM

Well, i'm pretty sure they had a fair reason to put it into the movie. now im more of a book person when it comes to lotr so i don't watch the movies all that often but we all know they can't leave the movies exactly the same as the books or they would be six hours long each! anyway i'm just glad they didn't butcher it as bad as Eragon. (that still brings a tear to my eye)

Mekor

Mekor Karun · 01-13-2009, 08:05 PM

I AM still disappointed that they had Aragorn go into the paths of the dead all by his lonesome with just a dwarf and an elf, (Legolas, mind you. that does cut his loss) instead of all his ranger buddies. But i suppose hollywood wouldn't have it. They had to have a nice green bath.

BGreg · 01-14-2009, 09:11 AM

Quote:

but we all know they can't leave the movies exactly the same as the books or they would be six hours long each!

well, they could have made a TV series out of LOTR (like HBO's Rome), but that just wouldn't be it. I guess we'll have to accept the limitations of modern cinematography

alatar · 01-14-2009, 09:35 AM

Possibly another reason PJ went with the nameless scrubbing bubbles and not liberated Gondorians as he (methinks) tried to keep the main characters in the light. Eomer gets short shrift; watch how he's treated in RotK, especially after Theoden dies. Eowyn, after killing the Witch King, still has to be saved from the limping Gimp by Aragorn, as killing the second-highest ranking baddie just wasn't enough.

So why add even more nameless, though prominent, characters?

Seeing men (and women, I care not) jump down from the ships, even with the scrubbing bubbles, would have been better, as it would have shown that Aragorn was becoming a leader of humans, not some sorcerer or elvish wight. It was he that led the men (and elves) to victory at Helm's Deep; at Minas Tirith, he could have got out his fishing pole and relaxed on the docks while his undead army did all of the work, securing his new realm.

How many orcs did he cut down in comparison to his army? Did he tell them to go here and there, showing his battle acumen? Nope. He just let the ooze ooze.

thewichtking · 01-24-2009, 08:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BGreg

well, they could have made a TV series out of LOTR (like HBO's Rome), but that just wouldn't be it. I guess we'll have to accept the limitations of modern cinematography

but then they would still be making them!(that costs a lot of money) do you really think Pj would spend all that money? OK, OK, I'm just going to leave it at this the movies may have been pretty crappy as far as true to the books goes but still they where OK movie and I'd watch them whenever i got the chance so there

BGreg · 01-25-2009, 05:19 AM

Quote:

but then they would still be making them!(that costs a lot of money) do you really think Pj would spend all that money? OK, OK, I'm just going to leave it at this the movies may have been pretty crappy as far as true to the books goes but still they where OK movie and I'd watch them whenever i got the chance so there

Yeah, I think so too. I watch the movies every time I can

Unfortunately, I didn't get to see the Extended Edition yet. Just saw a couple of trailers and it looks pretty good.

thewichtking · 01-16-2009, 04:19 PM

anyway i'm just glad they didn't butcher it as bad as Eragon. (that still brings a tear to my eye)

i know that was the worst movie ever

01-11-2009, 11:50 AM	#1
thewichtking Animated Skeleton Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 42	Why was the army of the dead at Minas Tirith? in the movies why was the army of the dead at minis triris (i know i spelt it wrong) they only had to fight the corsairs then aragorn let them go gee wiz how mest up can you make a movie

01-11-2009, 01:59 PM	#2
Thinlómien Shady She-Penguin Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: In a far land beyond the Sea Posts: 8,093	I think that's actually one of the worst parts in the whole movie trilogy. In the book, the victory in Pelennor Fields was the great victory of Men. In the movies, it's the great victory of Flubber. (Or some other ugly green mess, who cares. ) That really annoys me. I guess the excuse is that it would have been too complicated to do according the book and to include the fights in Lebennin, Lamedon and Ethir (or so, forgive me if I've mixed up the names, Gondorian geography never was my strong point ) or that they couldn't resist giving the Flubber a lot of screentime by bringing it to Minas Tirith. I think they could have just shown what happened in a minute or so: quick cuts to the ghosts fighting the pirates, the "liberation" of the Gondorians, their leaders pledging allegiance to Aragorn and the armies boarding on the ships. I think that would have been nice. But no, of course not, you have to have the Flubber there to mess up and steal the show... __________________ Like the stars chase the sun, over the glowing hill I will conquer Blood is running deep, some things never sleep Double Fenris

01-11-2009, 02:03 PM	#3
Beregond Playful Ghoul Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Ontario, Canada Posts: 1,251	Indeed. Their presence at Minas Tirith absolutely killed all sense of sacrifice, glory, courage, despair, hope, and anything else that made the Battle of the Pelennor one of the most riveting, inspiring chapters in the Return of the King. All of the suspense: completely wiped out. The entire battle before the ships arrived: made moot by the arrival of the the Dead, who erased the enemy almost as efficiently as they erased the credibility of the scene. I can hardly stand to watch that part. __________________ "Hope and memory shall live still in some hidden valley where the grass is green." Last edited by Beregond; 01-11-2009 at 02:34 PM.

01-11-2009, 08:09 PM	#6
Tuor in Gondolin Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Southeast Pennsylvania Posts: 3,651	It's hard to say which was worse, the green slime at the Battle of Minas Tirith or Gandalf assaulting the Stewart of Gondor in direct contravention to his instructions. Actually, I suppose the green slime, especially since in the movie there is no reason Aragorn then lets them go, not even letting them get in a little dwarf tossing. All it would have taken was a brief scene of Aragorn letting the green slime go (even quoting the book), and rallying the Gondorians. Btw, PJ and friends missed one of the great scenes in the book of Eomer seeing the black ships Arwen banner and tossing up his sword and the bells of Gondor ringing. (An echo of Churchill's having the bells in British churches ringing [after Alamein?] )? __________________ The poster formerly known as Tuor of Gondolin. Walking To Rivendell and beyond 12,555 miles passed Nt./Day 5: Pass the beacon on Nardol, the 'Fire Hill.' Last edited by Tuor in Gondolin; 01-11-2009 at 08:13 PM.

01-12-2009, 05:06 AM	#7
Lush Fair and Cold Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: the big onion Posts: 1,770	The special effects were bad. It was Flubber... or else something that was left over on the cutting room floor of "The Frighteners." But then again, the movie was already so unwieldy. I can see how the plot decision was made, easily enough. __________________ ~The beginning is the word and the end is silence. And in between are all the stories. This is one of mine~

01-12-2009, 08:13 AM	#9
Morthoron Curmudgeonly Wordwraith Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Ensconced in curmudgeonly pursuits Posts: 2,500	The scrubbing bubbles were absolutely necessary to clean the white walls of Minas Tirith. The stonework was absolutely filthy! __________________ And your little sister's immaculate virginity wings away on the bony shoulders of a young horse named George who stole surreptitiously into her geography revision.

01-13-2009, 07:58 PM	#10
Mekor Karun Newly Deceased Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Wouldn't YOU like to know... Posts: 7	Well, i'm pretty sure they had a fair reason to put it into the movie. now im more of a book person when it comes to lotr so i don't watch the movies all that often but we all know they can't leave the movies exactly the same as the books or they would be six hours long each! anyway i'm just glad they didn't butcher it as bad as Eragon. (that still brings a tear to my eye) Mekor __________________ Uh oh, here come the torch-wielding villagers. (Again)

01-13-2009, 08:05 PM	#11
Mekor Karun Newly Deceased Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Wouldn't YOU like to know... Posts: 7	I AM still disappointed that they had Aragorn go into the paths of the dead all by his lonesome with just a dwarf and an elf, (Legolas, mind you. that does cut his loss) instead of all his ranger buddies. But i suppose hollywood wouldn't have it. They had to have a nice green bath. __________________ Uh oh, here come the torch-wielding villagers. (Again)

01-14-2009, 09:35 AM	#13
alatar Doubting Dwimmerlaik Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Heaven's basement Posts: 2,466	Possibly another reason PJ went with the nameless scrubbing bubbles and not liberated Gondorians as he (methinks) tried to keep the main characters in the light. Eomer gets short shrift; watch how he's treated in RotK, especially after Theoden dies. Eowyn, after killing the Witch King, still has to be saved from the limping Gimp by Aragorn, as killing the second-highest ranking baddie just wasn't enough. So why add even more nameless, though prominent, characters? Seeing men (and women, I care not) jump down from the ships, even with the scrubbing bubbles, would have been better, as it would have shown that Aragorn was becoming a leader of humans, not some sorcerer or elvish wight. It was he that led the men (and elves) to victory at Helm's Deep; at Minas Tirith, he could have got out his fishing pole and relaxed on the docks while his undead army did all of the work, securing his new realm. How many orcs did he cut down in comparison to his army? Did he tell them to go here and there, showing his battle acumen? Nope. He just let the ooze ooze. __________________ There is naught that you can do, other than to resist, with hope or without it.

01-16-2009, 04:19 PM	#16
thewichtking Animated Skeleton Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 42	anyway i'm just glad they didn't butcher it as bad as Eragon. (that still brings a tear to my eye) i know that was the worst movie ever