Sauron lives? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Keeper of Dol Guldur · 06-07-2002, 02:43 PM

Since Sauron (or Melkor) weren't killed just expelled and Sauron still roamed as a weak spirit in Middle Earth, incapable of rebuilding a body, what's to say that some weak minded person who looked in the palantir to see him couldn't become possessed by him, and act as a gateway back into the world for him. Just a thought but it seems to be a loose end in Sauron's death.

Starbreeze · 06-07-2002, 02:51 PM

I wouldn't like to think about it, but it's true, there isn't a complete end of Sauron is there?

dragongirlG · 06-07-2002, 09:19 PM

Sauron never died; he was just diminished.

Tarthang · 06-09-2002, 12:59 AM

I would say he was greatly diminished. I don't think anyone using a Palantri had much to fear because he would have been to weak to notice he was being scrutinized. And though not killed, I believe the intent was that Sauron was no longer any sort of threat once the Ring was destroyed.

Now a weak willed person using a Palantri to look back upon Sauron when he had power, opens up a whole new world of possibility.

Thalionyulma · 06-09-2002, 05:28 AM

Hmmmm, interesting thought….

Melkor was enchained and thrown into the void, if I’m not mistaken, during the War of the Wrath, at the end of the First Age. His fortress, Angband was utterly destroyed by the Valar. This was all done after his release during that period of captivity (the Chaining of Melkor). The Valar probably were fed up w/ his evil ways, and decided to "kick-***", eherm, I mean do something more drastic! [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img]

Sauron “poured” much of his power into the creation of the One Ring. When the Ring was unmade, his powers were then (probably) unmade too. As mentioned by dragongirlG and Tarthang he was diminished!

A weak-minded person that might/could be influenced by Sauron through the palantir? Nah…. if the One Ring wasn’t unmade maybe.

But this reminds me of another story by another author influenced by Tolkien though!

akhtene · 06-09-2002, 05:23 PM

The powers of Arda seem uncapable (or unwilling) to do away once and for all with the carriers of ultimate evil. So Melkor is cast into the void and Sauron is (I presume) left wondering in the world as weakened as could possibly be.

And as for someone falling under Sauron's evil spell through palantiri, that was not possible because the last palantir was taken to the West by Cirdan. (There is a thread about Palantiri somewhere)

Thalionyulma, and what story do you mean? Is it "The Ring of Darkness"? Or what, I'm just curious?

[ June 09, 2002: Message edited by: akhtene ]

Thingol · 06-09-2002, 05:36 PM

The powers of Arda are indeed incapable of destroying the source of evil. Only Iluvatar is capable of destroying a fea, (spirit) and so Sauron and Melkor are still left alive, though greatly diminished. In the "of the enemies" portion of the Silmarillion it states that Sauron eventually followed his master down the same ruinous path into the void. I believe that this indicates that Sauron was either cast out into the void by the Valar or somehow found a way out into the void himself to join his master. When the Ring is destroyed a wind comes out from the north and blows the vast shadow of Sauron away. This wind is quite obviously sent by the Valar.

[ June 09, 2002: Message edited by: Thingol ]

Birdland · 06-09-2002, 05:45 PM

It might be possible that the Palantiri could be used for future evil. It's said that two "seeing stones" remained in M-E in the Fourth Age. The Anor Stone, which was damaged by the suicide of Denethor, so it would only show his withered burning hands, and the Orthanc Stone, which was held by King Elessar (Strider).

But what about the stone that was in Barad-Dur? (Ithil Stone) History claims it was destroyed when Sauron's tower fell, but the Palantiri were made of very tough stuff, so there is speculation that it still survived.

As for Sauron surviving in some form, if he wasn't utterly destroyed and dispersed, then yes, he could rise again. It would probably take 1000s of years for this to happen, so he's probably due back - oh - right about...NOW!!!! [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img]

News Flash: "A mysterious, crystaline orb, dating back thousands of years, and of an unknown origin, was stolen from it's glass case at the Smithsonian today..."

the real findorfin · 06-10-2002, 09:17 AM

I've always thought the ending of Sauron was the weak part of the story. Surely he was severely weakened at the end of the war of Sauron and Elves but he managed to survive.
Even though the ring has now gone he would surely be able to fly around in wraith form and command power over orcs, etc.

I hear a sequel!!!
(Of course no one but the great tolkien himself could write one. hey, we're at the barrow downs, get one of the wraith moderators to resurect him!!)

Leto · 06-10-2002, 04:16 PM

Sauron can't come back. Despite the fact that the Silmariallin mentions that he suffers the same fate as Morgoth, imprisoned in the void until the end of days...he poured most of his power and being into the One Ring. The only reason he remained so powerful after his initial defeat at the last alliance was because the ring still existed and held all his power. Now the ring, which is effectively his 'form', is gone. His spirit has no more influence, and was blown away by the symbolic north wind, the power and will of Manwe. The only evil that exists is the evil that men carry with them, in their hearts. So there may always be another 'dark lord'. But none as powerful as Sauron...since he was the last of the order of the Maiar to refuse to return to Aman, after the end of the first age. During the fourth age, all the elves eventually leave the circles of the world as well...for it is the time of men...of mortals...as is the will of Eru.

Elrian · 06-10-2002, 04:47 PM

Quote:

Sauron can't come back. Despite the fact that the Silmariallin mentions that he suffers the same fate as Morgoth, imprisoned in the void until the end of days.

Sauron was not cast into the void in the Silmarillion:

Quote:

Then Sauron failed, and he was utterly vanquished (conquered, defeated) and passed away like a shadow of malice.

He lost the ability to take form again, or rise in power after the ring was destroyed, but he was not cast into the void.

Keeper of Dol Guldur · 06-10-2002, 07:06 PM

Heheheh, I can see it now. Some spirit of evil talking to Morgoth in the void about Elendil, "Elendil, oh he got his, Sauron killed him. Sauron get out here." Sauron crawls over on all four, "yes master." Melkor kicks him in the face. "You probably ate him too."

But seriously, what if someone had the intent of becoming the carrier for Sauron's will. There are some psychos in ME, such as Bombadil. Hey Aragorn let me see it-oh, eh. Hey Aragorn, let me see a sword...

06-07-2002, 02:43 PM	#1
Keeper of Dol Guldur Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: 315, CNY Boys and girls. Posts: 405	Sauron lives? Since Sauron (or Melkor) weren't killed just expelled and Sauron still roamed as a weak spirit in Middle Earth, incapable of rebuilding a body, what's to say that some weak minded person who looked in the palantir to see him couldn't become possessed by him, and act as a gateway back into the world for him. Just a thought but it seems to be a loose end in Sauron's death. __________________ "I come from yonder...Have you seen Baggins? Baggins has left, he is coming. He is not far away. I wish to find him. If he passes will you tell me? I will come back with gold." - Khamul the Easterling

06-07-2002, 02:51 PM	#2
Starbreeze Ghost of a Smile Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Mirkwood - Middle Earth Posts: 389	I wouldn't like to think about it, but it's true, there isn't a complete end of Sauron is there? __________________ Do not tamper with the affairs of wizards, they are not all that subtle - Terry Pratchett To write is to make dreams, to make dreams is to awaken the fantasy of the mind, to awaken the mind is to be a master.

06-09-2002, 05:23 PM	#6
akhtene Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: May 2002 Location: stronghold of the North Posts: 392	The powers of Arda seem uncapable (or unwilling) to do away once and for all with the carriers of ultimate evil. So Melkor is cast into the void and Sauron is (I presume) left wondering in the world as weakened as could possibly be. And as for someone falling under Sauron's evil spell through palantiri, that was not possible because the last palantir was taken to the West by Cirdan. (There is a thread about Palantiri somewhere) Thalionyulma, and what story do you mean? Is it "The Ring of Darkness"? Or what, I'm just curious? [ June 09, 2002: Message edited by: akhtene ] __________________ Где найти мне сил, чтобы вернуться через века, Чтобы ты - простил?.. А трава разлуки высока...

06-09-2002, 05:36 PM	#7
Thingol Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Long Island, New York Posts: 259	The powers of Arda are indeed incapable of destroying the source of evil. Only Iluvatar is capable of destroying a fea, (spirit) and so Sauron and Melkor are still left alive, though greatly diminished. In the "of the enemies" portion of the Silmarillion it states that Sauron eventually followed his master down the same ruinous path into the void. I believe that this indicates that Sauron was either cast out into the void by the Valar or somehow found a way out into the void himself to join his master. When the Ring is destroyed a wind comes out from the north and blows the vast shadow of Sauron away. This wind is quite obviously sent by the Valar. [ June 09, 2002: Message edited by: Thingol ] __________________ Yet the lies that Melkor, the mighty and accursed, Morgoth Bauglir, the Power of Terror and of Hate, sowed in the hearts of Elves and Men are a seed that does not die and cannot be destroyed; and ever and anon it sprouts anew, and will bear dark fruit even unto the latest days.

06-10-2002, 09:17 AM	#9
the real findorfin Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Mirkwood Posts: 514	I've always thought the ending of Sauron was the weak part of the story. Surely he was severely weakened at the end of the war of Sauron and Elves but he managed to survive. Even though the ring has now gone he would surely be able to fly around in wraith form and command power over orcs, etc. I hear a sequel!!! (Of course no one but the great tolkien himself could write one. hey, we're at the barrow downs, get one of the wraith moderators to resurect him!!) __________________ Legends of Middle Earth

06-07-2002, 09:19 PM	#3
dragongirlG Wight Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Stock, the Shire Posts: 151	Sauron never died; he was just diminished.

06-09-2002, 12:59 AM	#4
Tarthang Wight Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Paths of the Dead Posts: 108	I would say he was greatly diminished. I don't think anyone using a Palantri had much to fear because he would have been to weak to notice he was being scrutinized. And though not killed, I believe the intent was that Sauron was no longer any sort of threat once the Ring was destroyed. Now a weak willed person using a Palantri to look back upon Sauron when he had power, opens up a whole new world of possibility.

06-09-2002, 05:28 AM	#5
Thalionyulma Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: across the sea Posts: 295	Hmmmm, interesting thought…. Melkor was enchained and thrown into the void, if I’m not mistaken, during the War of the Wrath, at the end of the First Age. His fortress, Angband was utterly destroyed by the Valar. This was all done after his release during that period of captivity (the Chaining of Melkor). The Valar probably were fed up w/ his evil ways, and decided to "kick-*", eherm, I mean do something more drastic! [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img] Sauron “poured” much of his power into the creation of the One Ring. When the Ring was unmade, his powers were then (probably) unmade too. As mentioned by dragongirlG and Tarthang** he was diminished! A weak-minded person that might/could be influenced by Sauron through the palantir? Nah…. if the One Ring wasn’t unmade maybe. But this reminds me of another story by another author influenced by Tolkien though!

06-09-2002, 05:45 PM	#8
Birdland Ghastly Neekerbreeker Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: the banks of the mighty Scioto Posts: 1,757	It might be possible that the Palantiri could be used for future evil. It's said that two "seeing stones" remained in M-E in the Fourth Age. The Anor Stone, which was damaged by the suicide of Denethor, so it would only show his withered burning hands, and the Orthanc Stone, which was held by King Elessar (Strider). But what about the stone that was in Barad-Dur? (Ithil Stone) History claims it was destroyed when Sauron's tower fell, but the Palantiri were made of very tough stuff, so there is speculation that it still survived. As for Sauron surviving in some form, if he wasn't utterly destroyed and dispersed, then yes, he could rise again. It would probably take 1000s of years for this to happen, so he's probably due back - oh - right about...NOW!!!! [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img] News Flash: "A mysterious, crystaline orb, dating back thousands of years, and of an unknown origin, was stolen from it's glass case at the Smithsonian today..."

06-10-2002, 04:16 PM	#10
Leto Pile O'Bones Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arrakis Posts: 16	Sauron can't come back. Despite the fact that the Silmariallin mentions that he suffers the same fate as Morgoth, imprisoned in the void until the end of days...he poured most of his power and being into the One Ring. The only reason he remained so powerful after his initial defeat at the last alliance was because the ring still existed and held all his power. Now the ring, which is effectively his 'form', is gone. His spirit has no more influence, and was blown away by the symbolic north wind, the power and will of Manwe. The only evil that exists is the evil that men carry with them, in their hearts. So there may always be another 'dark lord'. But none as powerful as Sauron...since he was the last of the order of the Maiar to refuse to return to Aman, after the end of the first age. During the fourth age, all the elves eventually leave the circles of the world as well...for it is the time of men...of mortals...as is the will of Eru.

06-10-2002, 07:06 PM	#12
Keeper of Dol Guldur Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: 315, CNY Boys and girls. Posts: 405	Heheheh, I can see it now. Some spirit of evil talking to Morgoth in the void about Elendil, "Elendil, oh he got his, Sauron killed him. Sauron get out here." Sauron crawls over on all four, "yes master." Melkor kicks him in the face. "You probably ate him too." But seriously, what if someone had the intent of becoming the carrier for Sauron's will. There are some psychos in ME, such as Bombadil. Hey Aragorn let me see it-oh, eh. Hey Aragorn, let me see a sword... __________________ "I come from yonder...Have you seen Baggins? Baggins has left, he is coming. He is not far away. I wish to find him. If he passes will you tell me? I will come back with gold." - Khamul the Easterling