Serious suggestion for the languages forum - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Child of the 7th Age · 01-05-2003, 01:07 PM

I would like to make a serious suggestion for the Languages forum.

We have a flood of people putting up threads for "Where Can I Learn ......usually some form of Elvish" The actual titles of the thread vary, but the question being asked is basically that. This has been going on for some time, even though we have many threads on back pages that answer these same questions. The problem has reached flood proportions with the new movie.

Many of the other forums have a permanent thread on top which lays out very basic things. Why can't we have a permanent thread on top that reads like this.....Where to go if you want to learn Elvish. This would have links to other sites for Sindarin, Quenya, tengwar, etc. Maybe even languages other than Elvish?

I know we don't want to direct traffic away from the site, but I don't believe it was ever part of the Downs' purpose to offer a basic Elvish course. Please correct me if I'm wrong. This same thread would also encourage folk to raise appropriate questions and comments in the Downs Forum and would give some examples of the topics to be discussed. This might include things like references to new resources not listed in the permanent thread, pleas for help in translating, discussions of the language itself, where you an find certain quotes, etc.

Many of the other forums in the Barrow-downs have been looked at and "improved" in recent months. But this is one forum which hasn't. Does anyone else agree or disagree, or have other ideas how to improve the languages forum? Are there people who have special expertise or interest in this area?

Does Estelyn have to moderate this forum as well as the Books, Movies, Novices, etc.? If so, she must be running in circles.

I am not so naive as to think that simply posting such a thread would "solve" all the duplication problems. Many will still post thei separate questions. But at least it would be a place to start and quickly refer newbies to, and might even justify putting a lock on duplicate threads.

BTW, I am unfortunately not the person to carry out a task like this. I am one of the rare folk on the site who have memorized chunks of the Westron and Adunaic word lists, but my Elvish is definitely weak.

[ January 05, 2003: Message edited by: Child of the 7th Age ]

Beren87 · 01-05-2003, 01:18 PM

This is a very good idea, for I have also noticed this problem in other places.

The quiz and quotes sections are in desperate need of a Mod. With newer and newer members arriving it is hard to keep the smooth transition of gameplay. A "rules" list at the top, (much like the one in Newcomers) would indeed be most helpful. A few of us (Tolkiengurl, Lindolirian, and myself) have been attempting to teach the newcomers the "rules" of how to join in and post in the two forums, but it is difficult as there is no real "authority" to delete posts and such.

So perhaps the language forums also is not just in need of a Stickied "go to" topic, but also a moderator.

Aylwen Dreamsong · 01-05-2003, 01:48 PM

I agree 100%, Child. The language forum is in need of a mod. I can't count the threads that have someone asking where they can learn elvish, and they don't even check or search to see if there are similar topics (which there are many).

Quote:

I think there ought to be a thread in the start of this forum that linked people to Ardalambion and also linked to some of the better threads.. So we can avoid these threads all the time. Just a little suggestion, though.

Exactly.

Also, in the "I'll Translate your Real Name," thread, there are several people asking about their names, that have already been translated, or can be easily found on the Quenya Lapseparma (sp?). Many other links have also been provided, but I guess anyone would like to skip through the nine some pages of that thread.

Aylwen

[ January 05, 2003: Message edited by: Aylwen Dreamsong ]

[ April 13, 2003: Message edited by: Aylwen Dreamsong ]

Estelyn Telcontar · 01-05-2003, 03:05 PM

As you can see on the forum main page, there is no moderator for the Languages forum. I have my hands more than full with the three forums I now moderate and absolutely no knowledge of either Quenya or Sindarin, so I wouldn't dream of volunteering. But I agree that there is need of a moderator there, possibly on the quiz and quotes forums as well. Unfortunately, many newcomers don't bother to read before jumping in and posting...

***The Barrow-Wight*** · 01-05-2003, 03:32 PM

I am of the opinion that with no language expert on staff, the Languages forum should be closed and those few topics in it that are worth reading would be moved to The Books where they could be moderated for behavior if not for content by the ultimately able Estelyn. This would rid us of an untidy forum and discourage most of the "How do you say ... in Elvish" topics.

Beren, that is a very good suggestion. If you would write up such a rules thread I would sticky it and be very grateful.

Child of the 7th Age · 01-05-2003, 04:36 PM

Barrow Wight,

I can certainly understand why you would suggest this if there's no one who has expertise in this. I do not have strong feelings about this, although there may be others who do. Ae we sure there is no one out there who has this kind of background?

This is my guess as to what would happen if the Language forum disapeared. I think that there would be a lot of newbies who would go to novices and newcomers and continue to post threads such as "Where Can I Learn......some form of Elvish." Those who've been around a while here and/or who have more of a Tolkien background would probably take their more advaced questions to Books.

So even if Language disappears as a forum, would we be wise to at least post a thread with links at the top of Novices and Newcomers for "Where do I go to Learn Elvish"? Otherwise, I fear that Novices and Newcomers will have many, many duplicate questions of this sort.

sharon

Beren87 · 01-05-2003, 05:16 PM

*salutes*

That I will sir. Will PM it to you when ready.

Galadrie1 · 01-05-2003, 05:24 PM

Quote:

Why can't we have a permanent thread on top that reads like this.....Where to go if you want to learn Elvish.

I think that's really what we need. I mean, the "If You Want To Learn Elvish, Look No Furthur!" thread is good, but I think people don't read it just because all the links are spread over two pages. I think a "summary" of this thread "stuck" to the top of the Forum page would help a lot.

***The Barrow-Wight*** · 01-05-2003, 05:44 PM

"Where can we learn Elvish" doesn't deserve its own forum, and that truly is all that is happening in LANGUAGES. "Where" duplicates can just as easily be deleted as others, so it won't really add any complications to N&N. There really is no need for a seperate Language forum unless someone who is fluent in Tolkien's tongues is also willing, able, and acceptable to moderate the forum. (This is not a request. I really don't want to keep the Language forum open at this time.)

Alkanoonion · 01-05-2003, 06:38 PM

The languages section is a bit of a mess true and as I am no expert so I will not volunteer to be a mod, but why not have on your web page a basic vocab section? If this is to much work I have one being set up that you could copy or link to if you like
Example: sub headings under Language

Tangwar

Sindarin

Quenya

Black Script
Under each section you have the description and the basic Vocab eg
The Black Script / Speech

The Ring inscription in the ancient Black Speech from The Fellowship of the Ring
"Ash nazg durbatulûk, ash nazg gimbatulash nazg thrakatulûk, agh burzum-ishi krimpatul"
"One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them, One Ring to bring them all and in the Darkness bind them."

"It is said that the Black Speech was devised by Sauron in the Dark Years"
For the use of his minions in place of the Common Speech.

The following is a list of black speech words and operatives
The Black Speech...

agh = and (conjunction)
albai = n: elf (or) elves
amal = n: where
ash = n: one
Azog = pn: an orc-leader of Moria
bagronk = n: dung-pit
Bolg = pn: an orc-leader (son of Azog), slain by Beorn
bugd- = v: call
burguul = n: shadow, comes from the **** guul
burzum = n: darkness
buub = n: pig
buurz = adj: dark
durb- = v: rule
durub = n: ruler
Dushgoi = pn: Minas Morgul
Dushgoizagh = pn: Morgul Pass
duump- = v: doom
fauth- = v: lie hidden
gaakh = let it be that
gakh = three
gazat = n: dwarf
ghaash = n: fire
Ghaash = pn: an orc of Kirith Ungol
ghashum = n: heat
glob = v: filth
Golfimbul = pn leader of orcs of Mount Gram, slain at Greenfields
golug = n: elves, from the 1st Age
Gorbag = pn: an orc-leader of Minas Morgul, killed by Shagrat
goth = n: lord, master
Gothmog = pn: Balrog in first age, Lt. of Minas Morgul. in third age. (different people)
Grishnaakh = pn: an orc of Mordor, slain by Rohirrim
gund = n: stone
guul = n: wraith
hosh = n: guts
ilid = n: elf (or) elves
Khamuul = pn: second in command in the Nazguul
krak = five
krimp- = v: bind
krith = nine
Lagduf = pn: an orc of Kirith Ungol, killed by Morgul Orcs
lat = you
lata- = under (preposition)
lug = n: tower
Lugburzum = n: the very dark patch of dark around Barad-dur
Lugbuurz = pn: Barad-dur
Lugdush = pn: an orc of Isengard, slain by Rohirrim
Lughorn = pn: an orc
m- = **** of interrogative words
mal = where? (interrog)
mat- = v: die
matuurz = adj: mortal
Mauhuur = pn: an orc of Isengard, slain by Rohirrim
mog = n: voice
Morgoth = pn: Valar known once as Melkor that created Uruk's. The first Dark Lord
Muzgash = pn: an orc of Kirith Ungol, killed by Morgul Orcs
narkuu = never
nazg = n: ring
Nazguul = n: Ring-wraith
nuut = n: sky
oghor = n: Druuadan
olog = n: Mordor light-tolerant troll
prakh- = v: lure
pushdug = adj,participle: stinking
Radbug = pn: an orc of Minas Morgul, killed by Shagrat
Saruman = pn: the wizard (Mannish word)
sha = together with (preposition)
Shagrat = pn: an orc of Mordor
shakh = n: lord
shara = n: man
sharkuu = n: old man
Shelob = pn: the giant spider monster of Kirith Ungol
Shelobzagh = pn: Kirith Ungol
skai = gah! (exclamation)
Snaga = pn: an orc of Isengard, slain by Rohirrim
Snaga = pn: an orc of Kirith Ungol, slain by Sam Gamgee
snaga = n: slave (and used by Uruk-hai as = `orc of smaller breed')
srinkh- = v: gather (transitive)
ta = him
tab = his
tak = them
tala = above (preposition)
tark = man of Nuumenoorean descent
thrak- = v: bring
throqu- = v: devour
tug = adv: only
u = to (preposition)
udu = seven
Ufthak = pn: an orc of Kirith Ungol, caught by Shelob
Ugluuk = pn: an orc-leader of Isengard, slain by Eomer
uliima = n: throne
uruk = n: one of a breed of big orcs
uzg = n: land
Yaguul = pn: an orc
za = this
zagh = n: mountain pass
Special Handlers...

-at : verb infinitive Example: Krimp-at
-hai : people (collective plural)
-i : noun plural after consonant Example: Bagronk-i
-ishi : in (case suffix)
-ob : of (case suffix)
-u : noun plural after consonant
-ub- : verb future tense suffix
-ug : verb present active participle
-uga : verb past passive participle
-uuk : all
-ul : them
-um : -ness, -yness
-uur : for (case suffix)
-uurz : a common adjective-forming suffix
-z : noun plural after vowel
a- : prefixed to an interrogative makes it into a relative

you could also have a link section for people to post links to other language pages

[img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Merri · 01-06-2003, 07:46 AM

Well, there's the If You Want to Learn Elvish, Look No Further thread that I created in the summer . . .

[ January 06, 2003: Message edited by: Merri ]

Neferchoirwen · 01-07-2003, 10:14 AM

Been wondering about the Languages forums. I was actually thinking about coming up with lessons, or translations of some of the poems to begin with. About the lessons, they'd be hard to come up with. Though I've got my hands on some (from another Tolkien site), it would take quite a lot of time before I can say that I can be fluent enough to some up with something as well.

Eärendil · 01-07-2003, 10:51 AM

Joy seems to be really good at Elvish, at least of what I could see on some of the help she has given. Maybe she would want to moderate the forum?
I would hate to see the forum go, and wouldn´t hesitate one second with helping to moderate it, if it wasn´t for the fact that I am not yet an expert on the languages. I am studying it though, and am getting better, though slowly. (The fact that I am already studying two langauges ((English and German)) apart from my mother tongue might explain.)
Also, a few months ago when the flood was even worse than it is now, Mr. Underhill asked me to send him links to Tolkien´s languages, to put in a sticky thread at the top. He hasn´t done yet, and that´s probably because he is a very busy man, but could we try? Put up a sticky thread with links, and see if we can stop some of the flooding?
Because, as I said earlier, I would hate to see the forum go. I am trying to think of everything I can to help, because I want to keep it. There are threads where interesting questions are raised and cause discussions between all the members that have a good knowledge of the languages, and they are very educating and informative. I am afraid they would disappear if the forum would go.
But then, that´s just my opinion, and I am not the one paying for this site....*bows*

Eärendil

Beren87 · 01-08-2003, 06:56 PM

Aye, have PMed BW a list of rules for the Quiz and or Quotes section made by Lindolirian and I. Hopefully it should cut down on the repeat and misc. topics and posts.

Galadrie1 · 01-30-2003, 12:43 PM

The Language Forum is in serious need of someone who is willing to close and delete "I need to learn elvish!!!! Where should I go?!?!" threads. It's really starting to bug me, since "If You Want to Learn Elvish, Look No Further!" is only five or six topics down! [img]smilies/mad.gif[/img]

[ January 30, 2003: Message edited by: Galadrie1 ]

Merri · 02-03-2003, 07:49 AM

Is there really no one moderating the language forum?

Beren87 · 02-03-2003, 03:54 PM

Nope, no one officially. We really do need more mods on the Downs, with all the new people.

Galadrie1 · 02-03-2003, 07:11 PM

It doesn't even have to be someone who knows any Elvish, they just need to have the ability to close and delete stupid annoying topics!!! Grr, I'm getting angry now. [img]smilies/mad.gif[/img] [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

DaughterofVana · 02-04-2003, 03:09 PM

It's really disappointing that the problem has gotten so bad that deleting the language forum is even an option, but extremely obvious that it is the most efficient solution. Even with "sticky posts" (or whatever the actual name is) that tell people where to learn elvish or links to the name lists people will still post the same questions over and over without searching first. I just hope that the problem won't just filter through to the other threads, with the same questions in both books and movies, causing even more headache for the mods and everyone else, since the problem won't be as contained.

I wish that people had more pride. I know it's easier to just post the question and wait for a reply than to actually search for the corresponding thread, but come on, people! Be considerate! It took me three months to teach myself Tengwar, and only now am I getting good enough to actually compose in it. If you're seriously considering learning elvish/tengwar/whatever, then you SHOULD at least take the time to find the corresponding posts. If that's too much of a waste of your valuable time, then how are you ever going to take the time to actually LEARN the language?

Not really sure who I'm talking to, so I guess I'll stop. Guess I just wanted to say that I'm backing everyone 100% even though I'm sorry to see the forum go.

Gloomily,
'Vana

Beren87 · 02-04-2003, 03:51 PM

That was the thing that made me first notice this forum, the lack of Moderators. Most forums of this size have three or four Moderators per room. This did work early in the game, quite a few of the newer faces have been rather...immature. I really do think we need more moderation not only in the Languages forum, but across the board. If only to edit some of the language that I have seen of late that has been a bit offensive.

Merri · 02-05-2003, 07:51 AM

Well, I don't think my idea will be very popular, as it involves deleting the language forum.

Why not just post a bunch of links up on the main page for sites where you can learn Elvish? I mean, anyway the questions in the forum seem to be (Remember, I don't frequent the language forum, so I'm probably mistaken) 'How do you pronounce such-and-such a word?'.

I don't know, really . . . I have a suspicion that that was babbling more than anything else, but I'll just leave the post up anyway to see what people think of it.

Beren87 · 02-05-2003, 08:15 PM

Well, there is the "Help me translate this" topics and such. The language forum really could be just a place for "students" of the langeages to get help. And every so often there is a valid point raised about something. I don't think that deleting it all together is the best course of action.

Galadrie1 · 02-19-2003, 04:27 PM

Quote:

"Where can we learn Elvish" doesn't deserve its own forum, and that truly is all that is happening in LANGUAGES

That's not true. There are some good points for discussion brought up in the Languages Forum, and it should not be closed.

As for mods, if you want someone fluent in Elvish, Ravendah seems to be excellent. DaughterofVana and I have been trying to direct people to the "If You Want To Learn Elvish, Look No Furthur!" thread, but just posting the link doesn't work -- people just ignore it, and keep posting on the thread. We need someone who can close threads.

Manardariel · 02-20-2003, 10:28 AM

I agree with the people DaughterofVana listed..and I have an idea who we might control things...ok, listen:
My idea is to creat "general" thread, that sort of work like quiz threads, or the "NEW MEMBERS" thread. For example, you create three translation thread. Anyone who wants something transated can ask his question in there. Then whoever knows it can translate it, and we move on to the next question. That way, people don´t keep making new threads. The same way you could do one "Grammer" tread, one "General Questions" thread and one "Pronounciation"thread, mybe even a "Phrases" thread. The rest of the forum would be open for threads like the "Blade names", where you can use and/or practice the elvish you know.

So, what do you think? [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

**lindil** · 02-25-2003, 10:47 PM

From what I have seen on the Silm/TftE forums Eruhen has a good grasp of at least some aspects of Elvish and it [perhaps more importantly] a good head on her shoulders. I know in the past she has expressed concern over the Lang forum. She also completed the Quenya Course at Ardalambion. No mean feat!

Anyway with our JRRT's love of languages, it seems a shame to give up.

And I agree with Galadrie1 when she said, "it doesn't need to be anyone who knows Elvish, they just need to be able to delete stupid topics!"

Of course one would like a Mod to be conversant in the Forum they are responsible for but...

Anyhow, perhaps Eruhen can be persuaded...

DaughterofVana · 02-26-2003, 11:19 PM

Quote:

As for mods, if you want someone fluent in Elvish, Ravendah seems to be excellent.

Thank-you, Galadrie1. I knew I wasn't alone in my devotion. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] Ravandah's the man! But I'm sure that since Ravendah is as anomynous as any of us, he wouldn't be the ideal mod. They all need to know each other to plot our downfall, you know. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

-'Vana

VanimaEdhel · 02-27-2003, 06:15 PM

Quote:

As for mods, if you want someone fluent in Elvish, Ravendah seems to be excellent.

Yes, Ravendah has earned a lot of respect on my part. He is always there answering everything Elvish, Quenya and Sindarin (and giving me a project: trying to translate his signature).

Beren87 · 03-05-2003, 09:26 PM

Was the forum deleted? I don't see it...

DaughterofVana · 03-06-2003, 01:12 PM

I second the question. Is this really it? Is the Language forum gone for good? (Optomistically) Perhaps it's just in for repairs.....

-'Vana

Galadrie1 · 03-06-2003, 03:58 PM

[img]smilies/eek.gif[/img] Whoa, the the front page of the forum looks so weird without the Languages forum! I hope it's only temporary, too, 'Vana.... All those links on the 'Look No Futher!' thread, gone forever! [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img]

Falagar · 03-06-2003, 05:22 PM

What shall I do, now that the language forum is gone?! [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img] [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Gorwingel · 03-07-2003, 07:25 PM

Gosh, it seems I have been gone forever! I didn't even notice that the language forum was gone until I saw someone else asking where did it go. It is sad that it had to be terminated, but it was always kind of empty though.

Maikadilwen · 03-08-2003, 11:51 AM

Before you all despair (that is MY job, you know), just click on "Middle Earth Discussions" (the headline above "Books") and you'll find the language forum. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Galadrie1 · 03-08-2003, 12:30 PM

Yaaaaay!!! Thanks, Maika!!! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

Adastrea · 03-08-2003, 06:01 PM

Oh good! (it really would be a shame to let it go. once all the "Where can I learn" posts are gone we can get down to serious discussion) I don't think a mod would need to know the languages, just be able to keep it all in order!

Maikadilwen · 03-09-2003, 12:09 AM

I still recommend that you copy the links you want and save them, before the forum disappears completely.

EDIT: Too late! It's gone.

[ March 09, 2003: Message edited by: Maikadilwen ]

VanimaEdhel · 03-27-2003, 09:16 AM

Oh golly gee...the Languages Forum was one of the major reasons I joined this site. Oh well...

You should have seen me freak out when I saw it was gone. [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

I just wanted to officially say: Rest in Peace, Languages Forum.

***Sharkû*** · 03-27-2003, 09:54 AM

I don't see why it should be impossible for our members to incorporate the Languages forum into Books. The close correlation of language and literature is what mediaeval lit., and incidentally, Tolkien, is all about after all. This does not even mean that language topics need to have any special relevance for a literature discussion. However, if it forces language topics to adopt the same standard as the Books forum is intented to have, I cannot see how people willing to discuss the Languages would not benefit from it.

**lindil** · 04-03-2003, 06:58 PM

Sharku, what you say is of course true, the only minor drawback is that there is no sticky atop to contain the most essential links.

IF anyone wants to make use of it, in the sadnees of seeing the Lang forum disappear I created a few weeks agoa LANG FORUM for Downers on my humble Osanwe site.

I will give it a few weeks to see if anyone wishes to make use of it or not.

And if anyone has bookmarked all or many of the previous useful links, it would be very nice to have them archived publically there.

**The Saucepan Man** · 04-09-2003, 02:40 PM

There seems to be something quite eerie going on here ...

Having recently discovered the Who's on-line page (courtesy of lindil's stalker thread), I saw today that there was someone listed there as reading a thread in the Languages forum. Yet, when I went to Forum Home page, there was still no Languages forum to be seen.

Am I going mad, or is there some hidden Gondolin-like Languages forum with a secret entrance? [img]smilies/confused.gif[/img]

01-05-2003, 01:07 PM	#1
Child of the 7th Age Spirit of the Lonely Star Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 5,135	Serious suggestion for the languages forum I would like to make a serious suggestion for the Languages forum. We have a flood of people putting up threads for "Where Can I Learn ......usually some form of Elvish" The actual titles of the thread vary, but the question being asked is basically that. This has been going on for some time, even though we have many threads on back pages that answer these same questions. The problem has reached flood proportions with the new movie. Many of the other forums have a permanent thread on top which lays out very basic things. Why can't we have a permanent thread on top that reads like this.....Where to go if you want to learn Elvish. This would have links to other sites for Sindarin, Quenya, tengwar, etc. Maybe even languages other than Elvish? I know we don't want to direct traffic away from the site, but I don't believe it was ever part of the Downs' purpose to offer a basic Elvish course. Please correct me if I'm wrong. This same thread would also encourage folk to raise appropriate questions and comments in the Downs Forum and would give some examples of the topics to be discussed. This might include things like references to new resources not listed in the permanent thread, pleas for help in translating, discussions of the language itself, where you an find certain quotes, etc. Many of the other forums in the Barrow-downs have been looked at and "improved" in recent months. But this is one forum which hasn't. Does anyone else agree or disagree, or have other ideas how to improve the languages forum? Are there people who have special expertise or interest in this area? Does Estelyn have to moderate this forum as well as the Books, Movies, Novices, etc.? If so, she must be running in circles. I am not so naive as to think that simply posting such a thread would "solve" all the duplication problems. Many will still post thei separate questions. But at least it would be a place to start and quickly refer newbies to, and might even justify putting a lock on duplicate threads. BTW, I am unfortunately not the person to carry out a task like this. I am one of the rare folk on the site who have memorized chunks of the Westron and Adunaic word lists, but my Elvish is definitely weak. [ January 05, 2003: Message edited by: Child of the 7th Age ] __________________ Multitasking women are never too busy to vote.

01-05-2003, 03:05 PM	#4
Estelyn Telcontar Princess of Skwerlz Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles) Posts: 7,645	As you can see on the forum main page, there is no moderator for the Languages forum. I have my hands more than full with the three forums I now moderate and absolutely no knowledge of either Quenya or Sindarin, so I wouldn't dream of volunteering. But I agree that there is need of a moderator there, possibly on the quiz and quotes forums as well. Unfortunately, many newcomers don't bother to read before jumping in and posting... __________________ 'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...'

01-05-2003, 03:32 PM	#5
*The Barrow-Wight* Night In Wight Satin Join Date: May 2000 Posts: 4,058	I am of the opinion that with no language expert on staff, the Languages forum should be closed and those few topics in it that are worth reading would be moved to The Books where they could be moderated for behavior if not for content by the ultimately able Estelyn. This would rid us of an untidy forum and discourage most of the "How do you say ... in Elvish" topics. Beren, that is a very good suggestion. If you would write up such a rules thread I would sticky it and be very grateful. __________________ The Barrow-Wight

01-05-2003, 04:36 PM	#6
Child of the 7th Age Spirit of the Lonely Star Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 5,135	Barrow Wight, I can certainly understand why you would suggest this if there's no one who has expertise in this. I do not have strong feelings about this, although there may be others who do. Ae we sure there is no one out there who has this kind of background? This is my guess as to what would happen if the Language forum disapeared. I think that there would be a lot of newbies who would go to novices and newcomers and continue to post threads such as "Where Can I Learn......some form of Elvish." Those who've been around a while here and/or who have more of a Tolkien background would probably take their more advaced questions to Books. So even if Language disappears as a forum, would we be wise to at least post a thread with links at the top of Novices and Newcomers for "Where do I go to Learn Elvish"? Otherwise, I fear that Novices and Newcomers will have many, many duplicate questions of this sort. sharon __________________ Multitasking women are never too busy to vote.

01-05-2003, 05:44 PM	#9
*The Barrow-Wight* Night In Wight Satin Join Date: May 2000 Posts: 4,058	"Where can we learn Elvish" doesn't deserve its own forum, and that truly is all that is happening in LANGUAGES. "Where" duplicates can just as easily be deleted as others, so it won't really add any complications to N&N. There really is no need for a seperate Language forum unless someone who is fluent in Tolkien's tongues is also willing, able, and acceptable to moderate the forum. (This is not a request. I really don't want to keep the Language forum open at this time.) __________________ The Barrow-Wight

01-05-2003, 01:18 PM	#2
Beren87 Master of the Secret Fire Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Between fire and ice, death and life Posts: 2,266	This is a very good idea, for I have also noticed this problem in other places. The quiz and quotes sections are in desperate need of a Mod. With newer and newer members arriving it is hard to keep the smooth transition of gameplay. A "rules" list at the top, (much like the one in Newcomers) would indeed be most helpful. A few of us (Tolkiengurl, Lindolirian, and myself) have been attempting to teach the newcomers the "rules" of how to join in and post in the two forums, but it is difficult as there is no real "authority" to delete posts and such. So perhaps the language forums also is not just in need of a Stickied "go to" topic, but also a moderator.

01-05-2003, 05:16 PM	#7
Beren87 Master of the Secret Fire Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Between fire and ice, death and life Posts: 2,266	salutes That I will sir. Will PM it to you when ready.

01-05-2003, 06:38 PM	#10
Alkanoonion Spirit in Eriador Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Adelaide Posts: 398	The languages section is a bit of a mess true and as I am no expert so I will not volunteer to be a mod, but why not have on your web page a basic vocab section? If this is to much work I have one being set up that you could copy or link to if you like Example: sub headings under Language Tangwar Sindarin Quenya Black Script Under each section you have the description and the basic Vocab eg The Black Script / Speech The Ring inscription in the ancient Black Speech from The Fellowship of the Ring "Ash nazg durbatulûk, ash nazg gimbatulash nazg thrakatulûk, agh burzum-ishi krimpatul" "One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them, One Ring to bring them all and in the Darkness bind them." "It is said that the Black Speech was devised by Sauron in the Dark Years" For the use of his minions in place of the Common Speech. The following is a list of black speech words and operatives The Black Speech... agh = and (conjunction) albai = n: elf (or) elves amal = n: where ash = n: one Azog = pn: an orc-leader of Moria bagronk = n: dung-pit Bolg = pn: an orc-leader (son of Azog), slain by Beorn bugd- = v: call burguul = n: shadow, comes from the ** guul burzum = n: darkness buub = n: pig buurz = adj: dark durb- = v: rule durub = n: ruler Dushgoi = pn: Minas Morgul Dushgoizagh = pn: Morgul Pass duump- = v: doom fauth- = v: lie hidden gaakh = let it be that gakh = three gazat = n: dwarf ghaash = n: fire Ghaash = pn: an orc of Kirith Ungol ghashum = n: heat glob = v: filth Golfimbul = pn leader of orcs of Mount Gram, slain at Greenfields golug = n: elves, from the 1st Age Gorbag = pn: an orc-leader of Minas Morgul, killed by Shagrat goth = n: lord, master Gothmog = pn: Balrog in first age, Lt. of Minas Morgul. in third age. (different people) Grishnaakh = pn: an orc of Mordor, slain by Rohirrim gund = n: stone guul = n: wraith hosh = n: guts ilid = n: elf (or) elves Khamuul = pn: second in command in the Nazguul krak = five krimp- = v: bind krith = nine Lagduf = pn: an orc of Kirith Ungol, killed by Morgul Orcs lat = you lata- = under (preposition) lug = n: tower Lugburzum = n: the very dark patch of dark around Barad-dur Lugbuurz = pn: Barad-dur Lugdush = pn: an orc of Isengard, slain by Rohirrim Lughorn = pn: an orc m- = ** of interrogative words mal = where? (interrog) mat- = v: die matuurz = adj: mortal Mauhuur = pn: an orc of Isengard, slain by Rohirrim mog = n: voice Morgoth = pn: Valar known once as Melkor that created Uruk's. The first Dark Lord Muzgash = pn: an orc of Kirith Ungol, killed by Morgul Orcs narkuu = never nazg = n: ring Nazguul = n: Ring-wraith nuut = n: sky oghor = n: Druuadan olog = n: Mordor light-tolerant troll prakh- = v: lure pushdug = adj,participle: stinking Radbug = pn: an orc of Minas Morgul, killed by Shagrat Saruman = pn: the wizard (Mannish word) sha = together with (preposition) Shagrat = pn: an orc of Mordor shakh = n: lord shara = n: man sharkuu = n: old man Shelob = pn: the giant spider monster of Kirith Ungol Shelobzagh = pn: Kirith Ungol skai = gah! (exclamation) Snaga = pn: an orc of Isengard, slain by Rohirrim Snaga = pn: an orc of Kirith Ungol, slain by Sam Gamgee snaga = n: slave (and used by Uruk-hai as = `orc of smaller breed') srinkh- = v: gather (transitive) ta = him tab = his tak = them tala = above (preposition) tark = man of Nuumenoorean descent thrak- = v: bring throqu- = v: devour tug = adv: only u = to (preposition) udu = seven Ufthak = pn: an orc of Kirith Ungol, caught by Shelob Ugluuk = pn: an orc-leader of Isengard, slain by Eomer uliima = n: throne uruk = n: one of a breed of big orcs uzg = n: land Yaguul = pn: an orc za = this zagh = n: mountain pass Special Handlers... -at : verb infinitive Example: Krimp-at -hai : people (collective plural) -i : noun plural after consonant Example: Bagronk-i -ishi : in (case suffix) -ob : of (case suffix) -u : noun plural after consonant -ub- : verb future tense suffix -ug : verb present active participle -uga : verb past passive participle -uuk : all -ul : them -um : -ness, -yness -uur : for (case suffix) -uurz : a common adjective-forming suffix -z : noun plural after vowel a- : prefixed to an interrogative makes it into a relative you could also have a link section for people to post links to other language pages [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] __________________ In prosperity our friends know us; in adversity we know our friends.

01-06-2003, 07:46 AM	#11
Merri Wight Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: The Shire Posts: 225	Well, there's the If You Want to Learn Elvish, Look No Further thread that I created in the summer . . . [ January 06, 2003: Message edited by: Merri ] __________________ Knowledge is just opinion that you trust enough to act upon. -Children of the Mind, by Orson Scott Card.

01-07-2003, 10:14 AM	#12
Neferchoirwen Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: RtR: 483.3 miles, Fords of Bruinen Posts: 513	Been wondering about the Languages forums. I was actually thinking about coming up with lessons, or translations of some of the poems to begin with. About the lessons, they'd be hard to come up with. Though I've got my hands on some (from another Tolkien site), it would take quite a lot of time before I can say that I can be fluent enough to some up with something as well. __________________ On really romantic nights of self, I go salsa dancing with my confusion. ~Speed Levitch http://crevicesofsilence.blogspot.com/

01-07-2003, 10:51 AM	#13
Eärendil Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Valinor (RtL: 1220 miles) Posts: 562	Joy seems to be really good at Elvish, at least of what I could see on some of the help she has given. Maybe she would want to moderate the forum? I would hate to see the forum go, and wouldn´t hesitate one second with helping to moderate it, if it wasn´t for the fact that I am not yet an expert on the languages. I am studying it though, and am getting better, though slowly. (The fact that I am already studying two langauges ((English and German)) apart from my mother tongue might explain.) Also, a few months ago when the flood was even worse than it is now, Mr. Underhill asked me to send him links to Tolkien´s languages, to put in a sticky thread at the top. He hasn´t done yet, and that´s probably because he is a very busy man, but could we try? Put up a sticky thread with links, and see if we can stop some of the flooding? Because, as I said earlier, I would hate to see the forum go. I am trying to think of everything I can to help, because I want to keep it. There are threads where interesting questions are raised and cause discussions between all the members that have a good knowledge of the languages, and they are very educating and informative. I am afraid they would disappear if the forum would go. But then, that´s just my opinion, and I am not the one paying for this site....bows Eärendil __________________ Jag ska aldrig göra dig illa. Inte igen. Åtminstone inte mycket, åtminstone inte hårt. Kommer du ihåg? Då vi fortfarande kunde skratta, le på ett äkta vis. Jag tänker på det ibland. Det smärtar. För aldrig har du väl varit. Längre bort. Från mig.

01-08-2003, 06:56 PM	#14
Beren87 Master of the Secret Fire Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Between fire and ice, death and life Posts: 2,266	Aye, have PMed BW a list of rules for the Quiz and or Quotes section made by Lindolirian and I. Hopefully it should cut down on the repeat and misc. topics and posts.

01-30-2003, 12:43 PM	#15
Galadrie1 Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: The wrong place at the wrong time. Posts: 399	The Language Forum is in serious need of someone who is willing to close and delete "I need to learn elvish!!!! Where should I go?!?!" threads. It's really starting to bug me, since "If You Want to Learn Elvish, Look No Further!" is only five or six topics down! [img]smilies/mad.gif[/img] [ January 30, 2003: Message edited by: Galadrie1 ] __________________ "For this is what your folk would call magic, I believe; though I do not understand clearly what they mean; and they seem to use the same word of the deceits of the Enemy. But this, if you will, is the magic of Galadriel."

02-03-2003, 07:49 AM	#16
Merri Wight Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: The Shire Posts: 225	Is there really no one moderating the language forum? __________________ Knowledge is just opinion that you trust enough to act upon. -Children of the Mind, by Orson Scott Card.

02-03-2003, 03:54 PM	#17
Beren87 Master of the Secret Fire Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Between fire and ice, death and life Posts: 2,266	Nope, no one officially. We really do need more mods on the Downs, with all the new people.

02-03-2003, 07:11 PM	#18
Galadrie1 Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: The wrong place at the wrong time. Posts: 399	It doesn't even have to be someone who knows any Elvish, they just need to have the ability to close and delete stupid annoying topics!!! Grr, I'm getting angry now. [img]smilies/mad.gif[/img] [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] __________________ "For this is what your folk would call magic, I believe; though I do not understand clearly what they mean; and they seem to use the same word of the deceits of the Enemy. But this, if you will, is the magic of Galadriel."

02-04-2003, 03:09 PM	#19
DaughterofVana Wight Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: twirling contentedly in a flower-filled field Posts: 136	It's really disappointing that the problem has gotten so bad that deleting the language forum is even an option, but extremely obvious that it is the most efficient solution. Even with "sticky posts" (or whatever the actual name is) that tell people where to learn elvish or links to the name lists people will still post the same questions over and over without searching first. I just hope that the problem won't just filter through to the other threads, with the same questions in both books and movies, causing even more headache for the mods and everyone else, since the problem won't be as contained. I wish that people had more pride. I know it's easier to just post the question and wait for a reply than to actually search for the corresponding thread, but come on, people! Be considerate! It took me three months to teach myself Tengwar, and only now am I getting good enough to actually compose in it. If you're seriously considering learning elvish/tengwar/whatever, then you SHOULD at least take the time to find the corresponding posts. If that's too much of a waste of your valuable time, then how are you ever going to take the time to actually LEARN the language? Not really sure who I'm talking to, so I guess I'll stop. Guess I just wanted to say that I'm backing everyone 100% even though I'm sorry to see the forum go. Gloomily, 'Vana __________________ "There is a kind of happiness and wonder that makes you serious. It is too good to waste on jokes." Hi! Did you miss me?

02-04-2003, 03:51 PM	#20
Beren87 Master of the Secret Fire Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Between fire and ice, death and life Posts: 2,266	That was the thing that made me first notice this forum, the lack of Moderators. Most forums of this size have three or four Moderators per room. This did work early in the game, quite a few of the newer faces have been rather...immature. I really do think we need more moderation not only in the Languages forum, but across the board. If only to edit some of the language that I have seen of late that has been a bit offensive.

02-05-2003, 07:51 AM	#21
Merri Wight Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: The Shire Posts: 225	Well, I don't think my idea will be very popular, as it involves deleting the language forum. Why not just post a bunch of links up on the main page for sites where you can learn Elvish? I mean, anyway the questions in the forum seem to be (Remember, I don't frequent the language forum, so I'm probably mistaken) 'How do you pronounce such-and-such a word?'. I don't know, really . . . I have a suspicion that that was babbling more than anything else, but I'll just leave the post up anyway to see what people think of it. __________________ Knowledge is just opinion that you trust enough to act upon. -Children of the Mind, by Orson Scott Card.

02-05-2003, 08:15 PM	#22
Beren87 Master of the Secret Fire Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Between fire and ice, death and life Posts: 2,266	Well, there is the "Help me translate this" topics and such. The language forum really could be just a place for "students" of the langeages to get help. And every so often there is a valid point raised about something. I don't think that deleting it all together is the best course of action.

02-20-2003, 10:28 AM	#24
Manardariel Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Rivendell Posts: 817	I agree with the people DaughterofVana listed..and I have an idea who we might control things...ok, listen: My idea is to creat "general" thread, that sort of work like quiz threads, or the "NEW MEMBERS" thread. For example, you create three translation thread. Anyone who wants something transated can ask his question in there. Then whoever knows it can translate it, and we move on to the next question. That way, people don´t keep making new threads. The same way you could do one "Grammer" tread, one "General Questions" thread and one "Pronounciation"thread, mybe even a "Phrases" thread. The rest of the forum would be open for threads like the "Blade names", where you can use and/or practice the elvish you know. So, what do you think? [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] __________________ Love is a perky elf dancing a merry little jig and then suddenly he turns on you with a miniature machine gun. Blog :-)\|FanFic Dream City

02-25-2003, 10:47 PM	#25
lindil Seeker of the Straight Path Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: a hidden fastness in Big Valley nor cal Posts: 1,681	From what I have seen on the Silm/TftE forums Eruhen has a good grasp of at least some aspects of Elvish and it [perhaps more importantly] a good head on her shoulders. I know in the past she has expressed concern over the Lang forum. She also completed the Quenya Course at Ardalambion. No mean feat! Anyway with our JRRT's love of languages, it seems a shame to give up. And I agree with Galadrie1 when she said, "it doesn't need to be anyone who knows Elvish, they just need to be able to delete stupid topics!" Of course one would like a Mod to be conversant in the Forum they are responsible for but... Anyhow, perhaps Eruhen can be persuaded... __________________ The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night exchanging lore & wisdom such as they still possessed that they should not fall back into the mean estate of those who never knew or indeed rebelled against the Light.

03-05-2003, 09:26 PM	#28
Beren87 Master of the Secret Fire Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Between fire and ice, death and life Posts: 2,266	Was the forum deleted? I don't see it...

03-06-2003, 01:12 PM	#29
DaughterofVana Wight Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: twirling contentedly in a flower-filled field Posts: 136	I second the question. Is this really it? Is the Language forum gone for good? (Optomistically) Perhaps it's just in for repairs..... -'Vana __________________ "There is a kind of happiness and wonder that makes you serious. It is too good to waste on jokes." Hi! Did you miss me?

03-06-2003, 03:58 PM	#30
Galadrie1 Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: The wrong place at the wrong time. Posts: 399	[img]smilies/eek.gif[/img] Whoa, the the front page of the forum looks so weird without the Languages forum! I hope it's only temporary, too, 'Vana.... All those links on the 'Look No Futher!' thread, gone forever! [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img] __________________ "For this is what your folk would call magic, I believe; though I do not understand clearly what they mean; and they seem to use the same word of the deceits of the Enemy. But this, if you will, is the magic of Galadriel."

03-06-2003, 05:22 PM	#31
Falagar Haunting Spirit Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Norway Posts: 69	What shall I do, now that the language forum is gone?! [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img] [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] __________________ Auta i lomë! Aurë entuluva! "Take no heed! We speak as is right, and as King Finwë himself did before he was led astray. We are his heirs by right and the elder house. Let them sá-sí, if they can speak no better." -Son of the Therindë

03-07-2003, 07:25 PM	#32
Gorwingel Beholder of the Mists Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Somewhere in the Northwest... for now Posts: 1,436	Gosh, it seems I have been gone forever! I didn't even notice that the language forum was gone until I saw someone else asking where did it go. It is sad that it had to be terminated, but it was always kind of empty though. __________________ Wanted - Wonderfully witty quote that consists of pure brilliance

03-08-2003, 11:51 AM	#33
Maikadilwen Summoner of Lost Souls Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: At home, with my Strongbow Posts: 525	Before you all despair (that is MY job, you know), just click on "Middle Earth Discussions" (the headline above "Books") and you'll find the language forum. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] __________________ -"Death borders upon our birth, and our cradle stands in the grave. Our birth is nothing but our death begun."

03-08-2003, 12:30 PM	#34
Galadrie1 Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: The wrong place at the wrong time. Posts: 399	Yaaaaay!!! Thanks, Maika!!! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] __________________ "For this is what your folk would call magic, I believe; though I do not understand clearly what they mean; and they seem to use the same word of the deceits of the Enemy. But this, if you will, is the magic of Galadriel."

03-08-2003, 06:01 PM	#35
Adastrea Animated Skeleton Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: England Posts: 31	Oh good! (it really would be a shame to let it go. once all the "Where can I learn" posts are gone we can get down to serious discussion) I don't think a mod would need to know the languages, just be able to keep it all in order! __________________ "Hail Eärendil, brightest of angels, over Middle Earth sent to men."

03-09-2003, 12:09 AM	#36
Maikadilwen Summoner of Lost Souls Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: At home, with my Strongbow Posts: 525	I still recommend that you copy the links you want and save them, before the forum disappears completely. EDIT: Too late! It's gone. [ March 09, 2003: Message edited by: Maikadilwen ] __________________ -"Death borders upon our birth, and our cradle stands in the grave. Our birth is nothing but our death begun."

03-27-2003, 09:16 AM	#37
VanimaEdhel Etheral Enchantress Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Wellesley College! Posts: 1,473	Oh golly gee...the Languages Forum was one of the major reasons I joined this site. Oh well... You should have seen me freak out when I saw it was gone. [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] I just wanted to officially say: Rest in Peace, Languages Forum. __________________ "I think we dream so we don't have to be apart so long. If we're in each others dreams, we can be together all the time." - Hobbes of Calvin and Hobbes

03-27-2003, 09:54 AM	#38
*Sharkû* Hungry Ghoul Join Date: Jun 2000 Posts: 1,721	I don't see why it should be impossible for our members to incorporate the Languages forum into Books. The close correlation of language and literature is what mediaeval lit., and incidentally, Tolkien, is all about after all. This does not even mean that language topics need to have any special relevance for a literature discussion. However, if it forces language topics to adopt the same standard as the Books forum is intented to have, I cannot see how people willing to discuss the Languages would not benefit from it.

04-03-2003, 06:58 PM	#39
lindil Seeker of the Straight Path Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: a hidden fastness in Big Valley nor cal Posts: 1,681	Sharku, what you say is of course true, the only minor drawback is that there is no sticky atop to contain the most essential links. IF anyone wants to make use of it, in the sadnees of seeing the Lang forum disappear I created a few weeks agoa LANG FORUM for Downers on my humble Osanwe site. I will give it a few weeks to see if anyone wishes to make use of it or not. And if anyone has bookmarked all or many of the previous useful links, it would be very nice to have them archived publically there. __________________ The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night exchanging lore & wisdom such as they still possessed that they should not fall back into the mean estate of those who never knew or indeed rebelled against the Light.

04-09-2003, 02:40 PM	#40
The Saucepan Man Corpus Cacophonous Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: A green and pleasant land Posts: 8,468	There seems to be something quite eerie going on here ... Having recently discovered the Who's on-line page (courtesy of lindil's stalker thread), I saw today that there was someone listed there as reading a thread in the Languages forum. Yet, when I went to Forum Home page, there was still no Languages forum to be seen. Am I going mad, or is there some hidden Gondolin-like Languages forum with a secret entrance? [img]smilies/confused.gif[/img] __________________ Do you mind? I'm busy doing the fishstick. It's a very delicate state of mind!