Dueling Wizards Werewolf II discussion thread

[Nogrod]

Welcome to the game Roa & Celuien!

I agree with Lhuna that you guys (McCaber and Gwath) will be sorry if you're not in a family when this begins... But I'd like to see the other large family to develop as well. With Morm, Roa and Celuien in we could make that other family quite an impressive one too.

So if you're looking for a patriarch's post morm you should consider to be either my brother and the grandpa of Kitanna / Legate / Brinn or their father? I will die on Night1 so that might leave you as the family's oldest male?

Surely this is just a proposition as I'm no Dr. Love by profession...

And I wouldn't be concerned as yet as I think that we will be having a few more players to join the game and that would also mean more possibilities to get oneself involved in the family-trees.

I'll upgrade the professions and then try to post for the rule-stuff.

[Nogrod]

To address Lhuna's points (hail for the reading effort! )

Originally Posted by Lhuna

1. Just to clarify, either wizard cannot refuse a duel once the other challenges. Right? But they do have the choice not to challenge right away even if the identity of the other is already revealed to them.

Right on both cases. Also the duel can only take place during the Day. So no Night-duels for wizards.

2. Yes, I think it would be better if the player scried by both wizards is killed.

Agreed.

3. I agree that the GW should also be given three players to scry on Night 1. (And trust Mac to know his maths - the Night 1 scry list should indeed include more than 5 people.)

Yes indeed.

4. I go with the standard 3 wolves = 1 Night kill, and then maybe just add one kill for each added wolf? Would that sway the balance too much? If so then maybe there can be 2 Night kills for 4 to 6 wolves. I seriously hope we don't get more than 6 wolves at a time!

I'd say two kills with 4-6 wolves. What to do if the EW manages to scry her wolf-total to 7? Scrying four additional wolves without losing one would take four days in which time they would have in the best case killed 11 innocents. With 25 people playing that would mean the game was over (7 wolves, 2 wizards, 5 innocents) and even with 30 players it would look grim indeed (7 wolves, 2 wizards, 10 innocents). Maybe we should stick to two kills at Night the highest? Although it should be remembered that the EW will not be that efficient in practise and the scenario is a bit far-fetched.

5. 7 AM (my time) deadline should be good, that will give me the night to catch up. (Who needs to study, do homework, and sleep?)

What's your timezone? GMT+? The American players would like to make it as late as it could be pushed and to me my limit would be 2AM my time eg. 11PM GMT.

6. Sorry, I must be really dim, but when are wizards and minions allowed to communicate again?

All talk within the teams is done during the Night. The minions can send their messages to their wizard via the mod. It's up to the wizard whether she wishes to create a straight link between herself and one or more of her minions or whether she contacts them via the mod as well - or whether she allows some of her minions to know each other and thus enable them to PM together as well.

The question of possible sub-mods needs to be raised again though. I have a vacation and could be reading the thread quite actively so I might also be able to handle the traffic myself - at least for a few days. Roa offered to be a sub-mod and that offer is appreciated. But as she told me in her PM that she could also play I'd love to see her play more than to sub-mod the game...

Maybe I could try to persuade someone who drops out of the game early on to join forces with me submodding the game and do the modding alone the first Days / Nights before a submod emerges from the dropped players? That would sound the most sensible to me.

7. I still say no to retractable votes. Double lynches...hmm...is it not enough that there's a possibility that more than one person could be killed at Night? And we're not always wise with our lynch victims (understatement of the year). I'll go with no.

Retractable votes are fun but I think there are enough twists and turns in this game without them. So I'd say no as well. With double-lynches I'd like to hear more from you people. For it could be also argued that in a big village it would be good to have double-lynches.

10. The GW could be limited to the three Gifteds, and other scries can be Ranger protections (except if the EW also scries that person, of course) or de-wolfings. Once a Gifted is ungifted or killed, then the GW can regift...but until how many times? If the second Seer, for example, is also killed or ungifted, what then? Can the GW gift someone until he's dead?

This is a point to be decided. In relation to DW I we have already eased the GW's situation by allowing her to scry all three gifteds in the beginning. Also if we give the Evil-side less kills than in the last game I'd say we should not give the GW more than three gifteds at a time. The game needed some balancing but let's not "overbalance" it? I'll try to make some dry-runs to see how it goes with different rules...

11. I remember that the last game there were a couple of Seer dreams lost and the Hunter failed to make a choice because (I'm not sure if this goes for all those cases) they wanted to discuss their options with the GW but ran out of time. Is extending one phase an option? Or will they be allowed to converse Day and Night?

I'd say no to both. Making Days or Nights longer would easily lead to confusion and Daytime messaging might be a too powerful weapon to the GW (as it would seem the GW has more sense in sharing the knowledge of the roles with her minions).

12. I think there was a Hunter complication last game, and I'm not sure if that has already been addressed.

I think it has. For that was a hasty decision by lmp made under pressure. With the advance of a hindsight it is easy to say it was a wrong decision. And now we know it.

[Nogrod]

I made Roa the mother of Legate, Brinn and Kitanna as she said she could fit in anywhere needed. I hope you children have nothing against your mom. That's an offer or suggestion though. Feel free to bring forward other ideas.

Now where do we find a husband for Roa? morm? You'r chance for becoming the patriarch - with quite a strong matriarch by your side though...

[A Little Green]

Ummm... Do I miss something important if I don't read those horrendously long debates and speculations that I don't really understand anyway? I mean, is it sufficient if I just know the final set of rules when it comes out?

Oh, and great to see new people joining the game. This is starting to look really really good.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Greenie

Ummm... Do I miss something important if I don't read those horrendously long debates and speculations that I don't really understand anyway? I mean, is it sufficient if I just know the final set of rules when it comes out?

I will be posting two different sets of rules to the actual game-thread in the end.

There will be the basic rules and then the hard-core rules. Anyone should be able to play with the basic-rules but the wizards - and possibly active & involved minions. That doesn't mean others shouldn't look at them to understand what happened in odd situations but that's everyone's own choice then.

[A Little Green]

That wasn't quite what I meant. I just asked whether it's okay if I don't read the rules discussion going on in this thread, because I don't have experience of the last DW game and don't quite know what you are talking about, and certainly don't have anything constructive to say. The actual rules, when you have decided on them, I will read and make sure to understand.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by A Little Green

That wasn't quite what I meant. I just asked whether it's okay if I don't read the rules discussion going on in this thread, because I don't have experience of the last DW game and don't quite know what you are talking about, and certainly don't have anything constructive to say. The actual rules, when you have decided on them, I will read and make sure to understand.

I haven't read anything for a long time except this one post, and I would like to second it I mean, maybe if you kept up some simple summary even of what the things look like now, it may be helpful...

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

I mean, maybe if you kept up some simple summary even of what the things look like now, it may be helpful...

It's hard to produce a summary of things that are unsettled...

But fear not. The rules will emerge from this discussion.

[satansaloser2005]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

I haven't read anything for a long time except this one post, and I would like to second it I mean, maybe if you kept up some simple summary even of what the things look like now, it may be helpful...

Can I third? I have no idea what's going on, none. But I'm sure it'll make sense once it's all in one convenient little post before the game starts, so I'm not too worried about it.

[Lhunardawen]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

To address Lhuna's points (hail for the reading effort!)

*curtsies*

I'd say two kills with 4-6 wolves. What to do if the EW manages to scry her wolf-total to 7? Scrying four additional wolves without losing one would take four days in which time they would have in the best case killed 11 innocents. With 25 people playing that would mean the game was over (7 wolves, 2 wizards, 5 innocents) and even with 30 players it would look grim indeed (7 wolves, 2 wizards, 10 innocents). Maybe we should stick to two kills at Night the highest? Although it should be remembered that the EW will not be that efficient in practise and the scenario is a bit far-fetched.

I agree with you and Agan. 2 Night kills, tops, should do.

What's your timezone? GMT+? The American players would like to make it as late as it could be pushed and to me my limit would be 2AM my time eg. 11PM GMT.

GMT +8 for me and Nilp. I'm not sure how a 7 AM deadline will sit with him, but I'm perfectly fine with it.

The question of possible sub-mods needs to be raised again though. I have a vacation and could be reading the thread quite actively so I might also be able to handle the traffic myself - at least for a few days. Roa offered to be a sub-mod and that offer is appreciated. But as she told me in her PM that she could also play I'd love to see her play more than to sub-mod the game...

I think that will be the case with practically anyone - we'd much rather see them play than mod.

Roa! Oooh. That's wonderful. Welcome back. And did I read right that Celuien's sure to be here?

Maybe I could try to persuade someone who drops out of the game early on to join forces with me submodding the game and do the modding alone the first Days / Nights before a submod emerges from the dropped players? That would sound the most sensible to me.

I think that's a good idea.

Retractable votes are fun but I think there are enough twists and turns in this game without them. So I'd say no as well. With double-lynches I'd like to hear more from you people. For it could be also argued that in a big village it would be good to have double-lynches.

Okay, maybe it could be put up to a vote. I'm still siding with no.

This is a point to be decided. In relation to DW I we have already eased the GW's situation by allowing her to scry all three gifteds in the beginning. Also if we give the Evil-side less kills than in the last game I'd say we should not give the GW more than three gifteds at a time. The game needed some balancing but let's not "overbalance" it? I'll try to make some dry-runs to see how it goes with different rules...

Oh, yes, of course. The ordos are still on the good side. Maybe each gift can be re-given only once, and then no more?

I'd say no to both. Making Days or Nights longer would easily lead to confusion and Daytime messaging might be a too powerful weapon to the GW (as it would seem the GW has more sense in sharing the knowledge of the roles with her minions).

Point taken. (Can you tell I (morally) want the Good Team to win so much? )

[Gwathagor]

Originally Posted by Aganzir

What money? My mummy's chocolate, you mean?
And don't worry, Gwath - if your brother happens to die before you, I'm yours.

Oooh. Hamlet, anybody?

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

You forgot DST, daga. They have them, we don't. So we're GDT+7 now.

I shall be a house-bound sandwich-maker. (Aprons look better on me than on Lommy, who, I believe, is better suited to aquatic poultry-raising. ) Also, I say 'nay' to multiple lynchings, 'nay' to retractable votes. Retractable votes are a needless complication, and multiple lynchings make the game too mathematical, especially in a game where the Seer could be reactivated.

Up next, a cost-benefit analysis of Nogrod's Three Possibilities, after finishing my synthesis paper for translation class.

[Cailín]

I must agree with Nilp and others: no multiple lynching and no retractable votes. The game is complicated enough without them, and many people will die without giving the village that additional power.

Four wolves or more should allow for two kills a night, while more than six wolves should allow for three (surely we'll not let it get that far?).

I think that by allowing the GW to bless three gifteds from the beginning, you already fix a lot of the balance issues we had last time. The game may even be swayed too much in favour of the good side, so I think a limit on the amount of regiftings is a good idea. Will the Hunter be an ordinary Hunter, by the way?

Have we yet decided on communication (sorry, it was a lot to read)? I remember from last time that the GW had difficulties because there was not enough time to discuss crucial choices with his team members.

[Thinlómien]

I shall be a house-bound sandwich-maker. (Aprons look better on me than on Lommy, who, I believe, is better suited to aquatic poultry-raising.)

Great, Nilp, what a well earning man I've married.... I think I'll be just a bird-tamer in general. So, breeding and training birds, whether they're aquatic or not, although preferring a certain aquatic bird species... Sally (with her duck interest) can be my assistant, Kath may be her father's follower in the sandwich "business"...

Sorry, I can't say anything smart about the rules right now, will do that later...

[A Little Green]

Nilp, dear son-in-law, do you make smørrebrød as well?

Bird-taming sounds honourable enough. I wait to see what my son has chosen for profession...

[Lhunardawen]

Originally Posted by Nilpaurion Felagund

You forgot DST, daga. They have them, we don't. So we're GDT+7 now.

Whoops. I never did get the hang of DST. Thanks, daga.

(To Mordor: ++Daylight Savings Time)

Originally Posted by Nilp

Retractable votes are a needless complication, and multiple lynchings make the game too mathematical, especially in a game where the Seer could be reactivated.

There's the reason I was looking for.

Originally Posted by Cailín

Four wolves or more should allow for two kills a night, while more than six wolves should allow for three (surely we'll not let it get that far?).

I was thinking about this too - maybe it would be added motivation to the innocents to track down the wolves before they became too many?

Originally Posted by Mummy Cailin

Have we yet decided on communication (sorry, it was a lot to read)? I remember from last time that the GW had difficulties because there was not enough time to discuss crucial choices with his team members.

Nogmod said communications are limited to Nights. Oh well...

[Nogrod]

Should we open a hard-core rule-thread so that no one gets frustrated with the need of ironing out the rules?

Celuien sent me a PM saying she will be playing. So that's true and confirmed. Great to see her for a long time!

Bad news is that Boro will only have one day/week time to play in the coming weeks and is forced to stay away from the game.

I'd say in this kind of game the hunter should be of the classical variety eg. posting a name of one person s/he is hunting and that one will die whether innocent or wolf. As the good team has the advance of sharing GW's and seer's pssible knowledge there must be this risk-factor included.

Have we yet decided on communication (sorry, it was a lot to read)? I remember from last time that the GW had difficulties because there was not enough time to discuss crucial choices with his team members.

I stil think 24hour cycle should be enough. If the deadline is 11PM GMT it will be pretty good for all the Europeans and Americans enabling them to check the PM's at various points during the Night - including just before and just after the deadline.

The late deadline might be a bit inconvenient for some Europeans (us Finns and possibly Legate) but that makes it possible for Lhuna and Nilp to be there at the deadline - and eases the situation of the Americans who have day-time occupations. So I think it's a good compromise.

I wouldn't set any internal deadlines to the communication during the Night from outside as they just tend to complicate matters and are hard to define as so much would depend on who the people involved are. The wizards themselves surely are free to impose deadlines to their minions if they see it fit. If the EW calls her wolves and says fex. "if you wish to make points on who to kill, please do it before 6PM GMT as I will not take later contributions into consideration"; or if the GW tells her gifteds that "all the suggestions as to your targets toNight should be with me at 8PM GMT the latest or I will decide it for you" then it's fine for me.

So it's also a question of the wizards telling their minions when they are able to receive information the last time before they send their decisions to me/submod. And in the end active minions can approach their master enough-many times a Night - and an active wizard may give the feedback as well many times a Night. So I wouldn't be too concerned about this question.

[Celuien]

Originally Posted by Lhunardawen

And did I read right that Celuien's sure to be here?

'Tis absolutely correct! I couldn't stay away from the Dueling Wizards return... and it has been far too long since I've been in a game.

I'm looking for a family, if there's anyone who doesn't mind being related to a long-lost wandering child like me.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Celuien

I'm looking for a family, if there's anyone who doesn't mind being related to a long-lost wandering child like me.

I would suggest that you would consider being the mother of Legate / Brinn / Kitanna -trio of 20+ children.

If Morm would be your husband we could start to build another big family there (I could be related to either of you then thus bringing Lalaith and Nerwen and their offspring into the same family as well).

Or how about taking the "young guys" Gwath & McCaber under your protective mummy's care? (sorry guys but that's just the impression that comes to my mind first from this particular game setting... - I mean "dudes" quarrelling over girlfriends and the stuff)

I still think we will (have to) get a few players in * so there might be other possibilities as well.

But just suggestions...

Any children in need of a mom?

* The official number of players is now 23. There are three people who have quite lately said they would like to join but have not posted to this particular thread (Valier, Azaelia, The Ka). I also hope to hear still from a few people I've sent an invitation to. But feel free to invite people in! 26-28 would be good (the last game had 30). But there's still about two weeks before we start so I'm quite confident we will have a good number of players.

[Diamond18]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Also I'd like to see some professions as those add to your character's and give inspiration to the narrations.

I will be dissolute and unemployed. Like in real life.

I have an imaginary friend named Bert.

And I like to eat candles.

[Volo]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

There is. As you can see from the family tree, Greenie's family is all green

Haha! Pity I can't rep you at the moment! This made my otherwise boring evening somewhat merrier, for a reason I can't explain.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Should we open a hard-core rule-thread so that no one gets frustrated with the need of ironing out the rules?

Actually. Now a bad idea. I feel like playing WW already and it's only the discussion thread. It would make things easier. (and we'd break the limit for WW threads for one game )

I think 4-> Wolves=2 kills.

How about the beginning? A situation like Loki's, both Wizards choose the same player before the game even starts. Wouldn't it be unfair if the player died?

Noggie, could I be your father?

edit: and when I was younger my profession was being the guy who knows everything about staying alive.

[Brinniel]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

I would suggest that you would consider being the mother of Legate / Brinn / Kitanna -trio of 20+ children.

But Noggie, isn't Roa our mommy? But I do agree Celuien should be the mother of Gwathy and McCaber. Somebody has to put those two in their place.

[the phantom]

Okay, so I've got parents, a sister, a fiance, a grandmother, an aunt, an uncle, and cousins. Now I need a job.

Legate- that's a big herd you have for just one person to take care of. Perhaps we are best buddies and are in the sheep business together. We've been raking in a good little bit the last few years, but these Werewolves are threatening our business.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by the phantom

Legate- that's a big herd you have for just one person to take care of. Perhaps we are best buddies and are in the sheep business together. We've been raking in a good little bit the last few years, but these Werewolves are threatening our business.

Good idea. I think two could take care of the job a lot better than just one. Let's join forces and make business...

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Brinniel

But Noggie, isn't Roa our mommy? But I do agree Celuien should be the mother of Gwathy and McCaber. Somebody has to put those two in their place.

That was just a suggestion as well... Maybe Roa could be the mother of you three and Celuien could be the mother of the two guys? And they could be sisters together?

And if Volo would like to be my father (as he says) then I could sit in my right place as the big-brother of Lalaith and possibly the husband of Roa or Celuien? (don't worry my friends, I will be dead after Night1 ).

That would still leave open the possibility of morm being the actual patriarch if Volo is a weak gamling and morm is my brother (and the other child of Volo's and husband of either Roa or Celuien - with this scenario I'd say I would have to be tha husband of Roa... just thinking of our shared history in WW... ).

I'm going to see how it would work - tomorrow. And if you people have any preferences let me know about them.

Feel free to disagree or to suggest better options!

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Volo

How about the beginning? A situation like Loki's, both Wizards choose the same player before the game even starts. Wouldn't it be unfair if the player died?

Read the thread...

I think there is a consensus now that both wizards will scry at least five people and then the mod is going to partly sort them out (so that those called for by both of the wizards will be let alone and a wizard can't scry another wizard ) and in the end the mod will randomize the eligible ones to both wizards from those left. So they will never know why they were assigned just those people in the beginning: was it because the other wizard had gone for them as well or was it just pure luck. They can sure make their own inferences from that "lottery" but that's already playing the game!

On other Nights than Night1 the one scried by both wizards will die for it. But not on the first one before the game actually starts.

[Celuien]

I like all of the options... particularly the one involving morm, given our old werewolf history.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Celuien

I like all of the options... particularly the one involving morm, given our old werewolf history.

The marriage between myself and Roa would honour a long tradition as well. So unless morm (or Roa) protests I'll be making it thus.

So Myself and Roa will be the parents of Legate, Kitanna and Brinn. Morm is my brother, married to Celuien. Together they are the parents of McCaber and Gwath. I try to find time to update the family-map later today.

So now we have another big family and everyone in the game this far is integrated to a family. Narration / playingwise it's also good that as Eomer will be killed with me on Night1 then both families suffer a loss.

[Volo]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Read the thread...

Sorry... I agree with the idea.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Volo

Sorry... I agree with the idea.

Don't be sorry... I just realised I had forgotten the smiley from there - it would belong there... I think I will add it.


Important notice:

I've made the first version of the "basic rules" ie. what a normal villager should know about the game and the rules. It can be found from the game thread. There will be a few things we should reach agreement on before the game starts so let me know what you think about them (those things are italicized there).

I'll try to come up with the "advanced rules" ie. what the minions and the wizards should know later...

[satansaloser2005]

Okay, here's my situation. I work until the deadline, with no internet at work. I can post during lunches and during nights (Day starts) and probably before I head to work. This means that any and all of my votes will be cast at LEAST six hours prior to deadline. Alternatively, I can text at work, and if my duckling has internet access, she may be able to proxy vote for me (only vote, no arguments, no other posting, just post my final decision) if she agrees to do so (and I'll only do that if it's absolutely necessary, e.g. my internet access is cut off for a day or two, I'm in danger of modfire to due aforementioned reason, my fingers have been cut off, etc., so for the most part all votes will come from me and any post made FOR me and not BY me will be marked as such for clarity and fairness.)



If everyone else is okay with that, you can take the question marks off my name, and let's get to werewolfing!

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by Gwathagor

Oooh. Hamlet, anybody?

I prefer the Disney version.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

So Myself and Roa will be the parents of Legate, Kitanna and Brinn. Morm is my brother, married to Celuien. Together they are the parents of McCaber and Gwath. I try to find time to update the family-map later today.

So I've been dating two of my cousins? Great.
(Really, I don't mind. It's just funnier that way.)

**

In case of a tie the one gaining the highest vote first will die (this might be subject to change as I kind of liked the test in a game sometime ago where the last one gaining the highest vote was killed).

I think it might be interesting to try the version with the last gaining the highest vote count being lynched. In the game(s?) it was used earlier there were retractable votes, which made it a bit different.

There will be no modfire so the villagers need to get rid of people they don’t trust themselves. (This is also subject to change if a majority has a strong view on this the other way. Then the ruling would be that two Days in a row with no votes would bring on the modfire).

I would say no to modfire. There will be many enough deaths anyway.

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Aganzir

I think it might be interesting to try the version with the last gaining the highest vote count being lynched. In the game(s?) it was used earlier there were retractable votes, which made it a bit different.

I think we should go for the usual "mod flips a coin" method, this game is complicated enough anyway...

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

I think we should go for the usual "mod flips a coin" method, this game is complicated enough anyway...

I can't really see it adding up to the complexity of the game. I mean, be the game complicated or not, do people think about every rule all the time, even when they vote?

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Aganzir

I can't really see it adding up to the complexity of the game. I mean, be the game complicated or not, do people think about every rule all the time, even when they vote?

I'm afraid I don't get your logic. I don't know of others, but it really would be an effort to me to remember that the last one to reach the highest vote count dies, if the game is being exciting and I have to wonder about a dozen different scenarios or outcomes of the lynch when I try to vote... I'd really prefer it to be a little simpler. There's enough to keep in mind and keep an eye on with all those wizards around...

[Nogrod]

No problem Sally! Many will need to vote earlier than you according to circumstances... The questionmark will be removed. Yay!

Okay.

One vote for the last to gain the highest number of votes lynched.
One vote for random decision by mod in case of a tie.
No votes for the first to gain the highest number of votes lynched.

What say you others?

[satansaloser2005]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

No problem Sally! Many will need to vote earlier than you according to circumstances... The questionmark will be removed. Yay!

Okay.

One vote for the last to gain the highest number of votes lynched.
One vote for random decision by mod in case of a tie.
No votes for the first to gain the highest number of votes lynched.

What say you others?

Woot!

Um, I almost prefer the random lynch just because it'd be easy for wolves to tie up votes and have one hold til last, etc. So I'm going for either random pick or whoever gets there first.

[Cailín]

There should definitely be modfire for those inactive players who fail to vote two days in a row.

Speaking about failure to post or vote, I unexpectedly got offered a part-time job this morning (yay! money). Together with my already busy graduating student schedule, this unfortunately leads to me being unable to dedicate as much time to this game as it deserves. Yet do not despair! My lovely husband / boyfriend Eomer has agreed to help me and post under my name whenever necessary. We have done a similar thing before in Shasta's Weres of Eire game and it worked quite smoothly.

Hope everyone accepts this arrangement.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Cailín

Hope everyone accepts this arrangement.

It sounds good. And in a way we get you both into the game this way!

[Roa_Aoife]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

That would still leave open the possibility of morm being the actual patriarch if Volo is a weak gamling and morm is my brother (and the other child of Volo's and husband of either Roa or Celuien - with this scenario I'd say I would have to be tha husband of Roa... just thinking of our shared history in WW... ).

Is that a proposal, Nogrod?

I accept! And I promise to make a suitable ruckus over your death.

Retractable votes in a village of 25 or more will make for a big confusing mess. Best avoid that.

Double lynches are also probably a bad idea, considering how fast the numbers would drop.

The last game, the wolves had two kills for being four or more, (something that took me a few Days to achieve, so fewer people were cut out of the game early.)

The GW never actually reached a situation where he had all three gifted last game. *looks very pleased with herself* Of course, different Wizards could turn out very differently this game. I don't know about being an extra Ranger with scrying, though. After all, he's already an extra Seer, which is an advantage as it is, even with out the ability to turn wolves into ordos, which is a BIG advantage for the good side. As the EW, losing my wolves to scrying was my biggest fear, especially Morm, who knew my identity (by accident). Having all three to start with is a big balancer from the last game, and he should definitely be allowed to re-gift as many times as he needs to replace lost gifted.

I never had a limit on the number of wolves I could have, but with the way I burned through them, the most I ever managed was six. I'm not sure about limiting the number, because on the one hand, if the EW and the wolves are crafty enough to get high numbers and keep them (not as easy as it sounds), then Kudos to them. Besides, if the EW managed to reach the limit, what would she do for scrying? I can see how the GW could be ranger-esque (even if I don't really agree with it), but honestly, what would the EW get to do?

That's just the perspective of the former EW, though. Where's Gurthang? I remember his biggest complaint was having to communicate during the Day instead of the Night.

EDIT: Also, I vote that the first to reach the highest number of votes gets lynched. Random just makes it harder on both teams.