Elrond Peradan

[narfforc]

In the chapter, The Houses of Healing, Aragorn says, "Would that Elrond were here, for he is the eldest of all OUR RACE, and has the greater power". Does Aragorn still see Elrond as the Great Grandson of Beren and Grandson of Tuor?. Elrond chose to be of Elven-kind, and he is not the Eldest in Middle-Earth in that regard. So that takes care of the possible slip of the tongue, if Aragorn meant all OUR RACES. Could Aragorn have meant, that Elrond was the Eldest being in Middle-Earth with the power of healing?. The Peredhil were not a race, in the end by choice they were either Elf or Man, so what race is Aragorn talking about, Elrond is an Elf and Aragorn is a Man.

[Raynor]

Would that Elrond were here, for he is the eldest of all OUR RACE, and has the greater power

I think that the whole half-elven condition blurred the distinction between races; Aragorn, Arwen and Gilraen all acknowledge the fact that there is kinship between Aragorn and Elrond.

Even after Elrond makes his choice, he is still called the Half-Elven; moreover, he is called an "elf-friend" in the Hobbit, chapter III, a label more suitable for a Man (for an elf, the label should be "man-friend" imo). In the history of Akallabeth, HoME XII, Elrond is said to have "descended from the Three Houses of the Edain" (or alternatively, "descended from the lines of both Hador and Beor"), which further blurs his condition.

[JennyHallu]

And perhaps the fact that Aragorn grew up as a child in his house made it even easier for the line to blur. His father passed away so early in his life that he probably identified very strongly with Elrond's family, thus making the many-times-great uncle relationship take on much more significance.

[Tuor of Gondolin]

An interesting observation. I would surmise
that in this context Aragorn:

Would that Elrond were here, for he is the eldest of all OUR RACE, and has the greater power

is considering those with some elvish derived
healing powers (Aragorn's presumably from either
a Numenorean and/or elvish ancestry source),
I would guess, in Aragorn's eyes, elvish- although
he could also be alluding to "the hands of the king
are the hands of a healer, and so he shall be
known." (not sure of the exact quote).
In this context "our race" could be the high
Numenorean mixed race man/elf connection.

[Elu Ancalime]

I suppose you could look at it in the same analogy as 'half full, half empty....'

I always thought Elrond to be more like a Man that is very Elvish, rather than a very Man like Elf. Aragorn we know and all the Dunedain are Men that are Elvish, though to a much lesser degree, so it appear more genetically than physically.

Here is Encyclopedia of Arda's Note to Elrond's ancestery:

1 Though he is known as 'Half-elven', Elrond's lineage is much more complicated than that title suggests. He could claim descent from all the main branches of the Eldar, each of the Three Houses of the Edain, and even from the Maiar. To be completely correct, he was slightly more than half-elven: actually nine sixteenths of his ancestors were Elves. A full breakdown of his descent works out like this:
-Three eighths Edain, through two lines: his grandfather Tuor of the House of Hador, and his great-grandfather Beren of the House of B?or. He was also descended from the third House of the Edain, the Haladin, through Tuor's grandmother Hareth.

-Five sixteenths Sindar, again through two lines: his grandmother Nimloth and his great-great-grandfather Thingol.
-Five thirty-seconds Vanyar, through his great-grandmother Elenw?, and also through his great-great-great-grandmother, Indis the second wife of Finw?.
-Three thirty-seconds Noldor, through his great-grandfather, Turgon (who himself had only three-quarters Noldorin blood).
-One sixteenth Maiar, through his great-great-grandmother Melian.

But that makes Elrond 18/32 Elf and 12/32 Elf, and 2/32 Maia.

I think that Tolkien might have wanted it to be viewed was as Elvish strain entering the blood of Men, not Men into Elves.

-Men were granted longer lives, not Elves granted the Gift; but they were still MEN, because they could not reach Uttermost West and stay in the Circles
forever.
-I also think that in Middle-Earth genetics, the addition of Man-genes makes a more dominant physical appearance. Elros was half-elven and chose to be a Man, but the Choice is interesting. Once again, I see it more like 'choose to STAY elven or BECOME man, more than fifty-fifty. Consider: Before the choice, like when the Sons found them, did they look like elves or men to them? Well, Elrond was 'Elf of the Cave and Elros Elf of the Spray (these are likely interpretations, but since the other interp. didnt have the implication of MAN...) Therefore their physical appearance did not change, until Elros married and begat Vardamir...

So i find it funny that Aragorn would say this, unless he was reffereing Elrond as a Dunedain (which would still be odd) or himself as an Elf.....So maybe it was either a slip of Tolkiens mind, or Aragorns....Like 'nobody uses his(Saurons) name' even though The Mouth did and the Messenger to Erebor did (if they were the same dude) but then Aragorns info might have been outdated. Who knows?
________
Mercedes-Benz Clk-Class

[Formendacil]

By "our race", I have always taken Aragorn to mean the "race" of the descendents of Luthien- those Children of Eru blessedly lucky to have the genes of the Maiar flow through their veins. Of course, I have also always seen Aragorn and Elrond's healing powers as deriving, in the main, from their foremother.

Taken this way, Elrond is definitely the "greatest" of this "race", in that he is the one related at the fewest removes to Luthien, and consequently has the greatest portion of Maia blood ( 1/16 if the numbers on this thread at to be believed).

Of course, the descendents of Luthien aren't exactly a race, persay, although racially they are genetically different from all other Men and Elves.

[Elladan and Elrohir]

Kudos to Formendacil as this is no doubt the correct interpretation. It's a puzzle that had bothered me also, because Aragorn couldn't have merely been referring to those with the ability to heal. Glorfindel, at least (Book I Chapter XII), had healing power as well. So yes, it is likely that Aragorn is referring to the descendants of Luthien when he says that. And she was obviously a great healer...

[narfforc]

Maybe Aragorn should have said "Of my Kin", as that would have been more appropiate.

[davem]

From the Online Etymology Dictionary:

race (2)
"people of common descent," c.1500, from M.Fr. razza "race, breed, lineage," possibly from It. razza, of unknown origin (cf. Sp. razza, Port. raza). Original senses in Eng. included "wines with characteristic flavor" (1520), "group of people with common occupation" (c.1500), and "generation" (c.1560). Meaning "tribe, nation, or people regarded as of common stock" is from c.1600. Modern meaning of "one of the great divisions of mankind based on physical peculiarities" is from 1774 (though even among anthropologists there never has been an accepted classification of these). Klein suggests these derive from Arabic ra's "head, beginning, origin" (cf. Heb. rosh). O.E. þeode meant both "race" and "language;" as a verb, geþeodan, it meant "to unite, to join." Racial is first attested 1862. Race-riot attested from 1890.

So, I'd also go with Formendacil. Seems to be another case of Tolkien using a word in its original sense, even though it has a different sense in modern usage.

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Elu Ancalime

-I also think that in Middle-Earth genetics, the addition of Man-genes makes a more dominant physical appearance. Elros was half-elven and chose to be a Man, but the Choice is interesting. Once again, I see it more like 'choose to STAY elven or BECOME man, more than fifty-fifty. Consider: Before the choice, like when the Sons found them, did they look like elves or men to them? Well, Elrond was 'Elf of the Cave and Elros Elf of the Spray (these are likely interpretations, but since the other interp. didnt have the implication of MAN...) Therefore their physical appearance did not change, until Elros married and begat Vardamir...

I think you're making this all too complicated! They were not elves and neither men. They were half-elves and half-men. And so they looked like both an elf and a human. Like a dog that is half bulldog and half lassie has a mixed appearance of the two races. And they didn't have to choose their race, but which race's fate they would have, so their appearance didn't change at all when they chose.

[narfforc]

There are numerous occasions in Tolkiens works when he clearly defines what he means by race. His characters speak to each other of it. Aragorn has no difficulty telling Legolas and Gimli, the difference between members of his own race, when explaining he is a Numenorean, and the Rhohirrim are not. So Aragorn has distant kinship through Elros, to Elrond, however Aragorn is no more an Elf than Elros or Eldarion, due to choices made. The Peredhil were given the choice of which kind they wished to be accounted. The reason I believe, was so that there would be no blurring at the edges, there is no middle race, Elf or Man. How this was actually achieved, only the Valar know, for how can you change a thing that is?

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by narfforc

How this was actually achieved, only the Valar know, for how can you change a thing that is?

His name is Eru Ilúvatar.

[narfforc]

I did know that. I actually meant the method used ie: snap of the fingers or the creation of a new piano concerto with strings and whole vocal choir of the Ainur.

[Elu Ancalime]

I think you're making this all too complicated!

Yeah...I do that a lot.....
________
Chevrolet Chevette Specifications