Reincarnation of the Avari - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Meneldil · 03-28-2001, 03:03 AM

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Newly Deceased
Posts: 7</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
JRRT in /Letters/ indicates that the choice of the Avari in refusing the summons was irrevocable. However, we also know from HoME X that an Avarin fea was also summoned to Mandos when the Avar died.

When an elven fea was 'reincarnated' through a reconstruction of its hroa (without getting into the debate on *who* rebuilt the hroa), the rule appears to have been that the elf would remain in Valinor, Glorfindel being an exception. Does this mean that Avari who were re-incarnated also remained in Valinor? This would imply that death somehow cancelled the irrevocability of the Avarin choice. As I see it, there are several ways of looking at this question.

(1) You could say that the Avari were wrong to refuse the summons, and that this arose from a flaw in their character. Going by the "Mandos-is-purgatory" theory, it could be argued that a sufficiently long stay in Mandos would cure them of this flaw, only after which they would be reincarnated. The trouble with this argument is that it depends on the Valar having been 'right' in summoning the Quendi to Aman. The dialogue between Manwe and Eru indicates that this might not have been the case - Eru essentially chastises Manwe for not having had sufficient trust in Eru to realise that Eru would have protected his children, who should have been left to roam Middle Earth.

(2) The refusal of the summons by the Avari was not 'wrong' - they were free to refuse the summons if they so desired. This choice was ordinarily irrevocable; however, because a houseless Elven fea was such an abomination, an Avarin eligible for reincarnation would be granted an option to reverse its choice and reconstruct a hroa for itself in Valinor.

(3) Avarin fea were permitted to travel houseless to Middle Earth, where they could reconstruct hroa for themselves. Alternately, Avarin fea would be reincarnated in a special corner of Valinor, and would be put on the next boat to Middle Earth.

(4) Avarin fea were not permitted to reincarnate. This is the least satisfactory option, largely because all indications are that only seriously flawed fea remained in Mandos for a long time, and that too only till their flaw could be remedied (again, going by the "Mandos-as-purgatory" theory).

Any thoughts?

[This query has also been posted to rec.arts.books.tolkien]

</p>

03-28-2001, 03:03 AM	#1
Meneldil Pile O'Bones Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 23	Reincarnation of the Avari <font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Newly Deceased Posts: 7</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> JRRT in /Letters/ indicates that the choice of the Avari in refusing the summons was irrevocable. However, we also know from HoME X that an Avarin fea was also summoned to Mandos when the Avar died. When an elven fea was 'reincarnated' through a reconstruction of its hroa (without getting into the debate on who rebuilt the hroa), the rule appears to have been that the elf would remain in Valinor, Glorfindel being an exception. Does this mean that Avari who were re-incarnated also remained in Valinor? This would imply that death somehow cancelled the irrevocability of the Avarin choice. As I see it, there are several ways of looking at this question. (1) You could say that the Avari were wrong to refuse the summons, and that this arose from a flaw in their character. Going by the "Mandos-is-purgatory" theory, it could be argued that a sufficiently long stay in Mandos would cure them of this flaw, only after which they would be reincarnated. The trouble with this argument is that it depends on the Valar having been 'right' in summoning the Quendi to Aman. The dialogue between Manwe and Eru indicates that this might not have been the case - Eru essentially chastises Manwe for not having had sufficient trust in Eru to realise that Eru would have protected his children, who should have been left to roam Middle Earth. (2) The refusal of the summons by the Avari was not 'wrong' - they were free to refuse the summons if they so desired. This choice was ordinarily irrevocable; however, because a houseless Elven fea was such an abomination, an Avarin eligible for reincarnation would be granted an option to reverse its choice and reconstruct a hroa for itself in Valinor. (3) Avarin fea were permitted to travel houseless to Middle Earth, where they could reconstruct hroa for themselves. Alternately, Avarin fea would be reincarnated in a special corner of Valinor, and would be put on the next boat to Middle Earth. (4) Avarin fea were not permitted to reincarnate. This is the least satisfactory option, largely because all indications are that only seriously flawed fea remained in Mandos for a long time, and that too only till their flaw could be remedied (again, going by the "Mandos-as-purgatory" theory). Any thoughts? [This query has also been posted to rec.arts.books.tolkien] </p>