Seven Stars, Seven Stones and One White Tree...

[zxcvbn]

The Seven Stones mentioned in this saying are the Palantiri and the White Tree represents the Royal Tree of Numenor, but what I don't get is what do the 'Seven Stars' represent?

[Imperica]

They represent seven of the nine ships that carried the Palantiri from the destruction of Numenor.

[zxcvbn]

Eh? Where does it say that? And if that's the case, shouldn't it be 'Seven Ships, Seven Stones and One White Tree'?

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

In believe that either in The Complete Guide to Middle-earth or The Tolkien Companion (and I think it's the former), the claim is made that there was a flag with a star on each of the seven Numenorean ships that came to Middle-earth carrying a palantir. I don't know where this particular bit of information came from, and I have seen several heated debates as to its accuracy, as there does not seem to be any supporting text in Tolkien's writings. Moreover, the CGtME is really not complete; it does not accept anything but what appeared in the published novels as fact -- no matter how often Tolkien himself said "this is so." For instance, it says only that Gandalf MAY have been a Maia. It will not accept the evidence of Tolkien's essay on the Istari in UT, or any of his many letters attesting to the fact that the Olorin mentioned in the Valaquenta is the same Olorin as Gandalf named himself in LoTR.

If I can ever dig out my office and get back to my books again, I may have another go at looking for an explanation for the "seven stars," but that doesn't look likely in the near future *sigh*.

[ArathornJax]

In the paperback version of The Silmarillion on page 331 in the Akallabeth it states that the Elendil, Isildur and "the Faithful put aboard their wives and children, and their heirlooms and great stores of goods." These were put on the ships that they had prepared, while on Isildur's ship they put and guarded the "young tree, the scion of Nimloth the Fair." It also mentions here that they had Seven Stones that they also put on the ships (9 total ships and 7 had one each of the palantiri put on them). When you look in the index at seven stones it refers you to the palantiri



In The Lord of the Rings Companion on page 436 it says "According to the 1966 Index (of the Silmarillion) the seven stars that were part of the emblem of Elendil and his house 'originally represented the single stars on the banners of each of seven ships (of 9) that bore a palantir.'

Perhaps another question would be did Amandil the father of Elendil make it to Aman and was that why Elendil and his ships made it to Middle Earth, or was it just luck?

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

Originally Posted by ArathornJax

In The Lord of the Rings Companion on page 436 it says "According to the 1966 Index (of the Silmarillion) the seven stars that were part of the emblem of Elendil and his house 'originally represented the single stars on the banners of each of seven ships (of 9) that bore a palantir.'

Is this referring to an unpublished index? (since TS wasn't published until 1977). Curious....

[ArathornJax]

I would have to refer you to the companion. All it says is the 1966 Index. In Appendix A there is a brief mention of Elendil and his sons escaping the downfall in nine ships with the seven stones. So, unless they were referring in the reference to an Index of 1966 in the LOTR, or it is a printing error, I'm not sure. I'll have to look at the sources when I get some time to try and identify where/what they were referring to.

[Gwathagor]

I'm pretty sure that the seven stars are simply a heraldic device used by the Elendili. I can't think why seven stars would refer to nine ships...

[zxcvbn]

I find it strange that JRRT never bothered to explain the Seven Stars when the other two objects(Stones and White Tree) held such importance in the story. When I first read it, I assumed it referred to the Elendimir(Star of Elendil), or to the fact that Numenor resembled a seven-pointed star, but it seems that's not the case.

[Gwathagor]

Besides, Numenor resembles, if anything, a five-pointed star. (Did someone mention that already? I'm too lazy to read the entire thread.)

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

Actually, to theorize, I've always wondered if the seven stars of the heraldic device were meant to symbolize the Sickle of the Valar, which Varda set in the heavens as a warning to Melkor, thus indicating that the house of Elendil was still faithful to the Valar and opposed to Melkor and Sauron. It did have seven stars, after all.

[Gwathagor]

Hey, that's a fun idea. It's speculation, obviously, but it could work.

[Groin Redbeard]

Quenta Silmarillion 19, Of Beren and Lúthien
"And in answer he sang a song of challenge that he had made in praise of the Seven Stars, the Sickle of the Valar that Varda hung above the North as a sign for the fall of Morgoth."

I believe the seven stars is a constallation in the sky that simbled the fall of Morgoth.

[Rumil]

Probably barking up the wrong tree here, but I have a vague memory that the Seven Stars were derived from one of the elven 'coats of arms' (as sometimes shown in various copies of the Sil). Can anyone confirm? I'm Sil-less at the mo! No doubt the elven symbols were originally derived from Elbereth's stars.

[Bregalad]

"What did they bring, the kings of old
from over the sundered seas?
Seven stars and seven stones and one white tree"

Well, this is a line (not used) from the script of the lotr-movie.
According to this, maybe the seven "stars" are representing the ships?

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Ibrin has the correct answer, but misspoke: the "Index" in question was the detailed Index/dictionary which Tolkien prepared in 1966 for the 2nd Edition of the Lord of the Rings (not the Sil) but never finished. Hammond and Scull quote from it extensively in their Companion and Guide.

[zxcvbn]

Can you quote the exact line, WCH?

[Galin]

I'm sure WCH can, but here it is anyway...

'According to the 1966 Index the seven stars that were part of the emblem of Elendil and his house 'originally represented the single stars on the banners of each of seven ships (of 9) that bore a palantír'.

So the last part is Tolkien himself of course. As Mr. Hicklin noted this refers to an index meant for The Lord of the Rings.

[mark12_30]

I always thought that Aragorn had one. "And the Star of Elendil was on his brow." Can't remember what page it was on. Pelennor fields maybe??

[Gordis]

That was Elendilmir, a jewel on a silver fillet, used like of a crown- a simbol of royalty in Arnor.

The one Aragorn had was made for Valandil of Arnor because the original one had been lost with his father Isildur. Later Aragorn found the first one in Saruman's hoard in Orthanc (UT).

[mark12_30]

Wow, cool. I had forgotten/not absorbed that (langsyne since I read UT.) But what hinders those/that from being the seven stars?

Just wondering.

[Gordis]

But what hinders those/that from being the seven stars?

The fact that it was single, I think

The star-shaped brooch of the Rangers, however, possibly represents Elendilmir, though I gave no proof for that.

[mark12_30]

Okay, I should have said what hinders Aragorn's star from being ONE of the seven stars.

There does seem to be a theme-- Smith of Wooten Major wore a star on his brow at times. Not that that one came from Numenor....

[Gordis]

"what hinders Aragorn's star from being ONE of the seven stars?"
We don't know of six others. Aragorn's star was unique, a symbol of Royalty, like a crown.

[Mithalwen]

Surely the Sickle of the Vala is "The Plough" - the most obvious constellation of the Northern Sky?

[Ardent]

Originally Posted by Gordis

"what hinders Aragorn's star from being ONE of the seven stars?"
We don't know of six others. Aragorn's star was unique, a symbol of Royalty, like a crown.

According to Bilbo's poem 'Earendil Was A Mariner', the star on Earendil's crown is the last of the three Silmarils [thanks for the edit Aganzir]. Aragorn instructed Bilbo to place a green gem on Earendil's breast, thus placing himself in the picture since this is what he wears.

It is unclear whether the actual jewel in his crown is the very star of Earendil, or just an emblem, but it is identified in the index of 'Lord of the Rings' (under star, as emblem) as a diamond shaped star on the banner of Gondor, along with the six other stars of Elendil and his captains.

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by Ardent

According to Bilbo's poem 'Earendil Was A Mariner', the star on Earendil's crown is the last of the three Palantiri.

No it's actually the last of the three Silmarils. Of the Palantíri there were seven.

It is unclear whether the actual jewel in his crown is the very star of Earendil, or just an emblem, but it is identified in the index of 'Lord of the Rings' (under star, as emblem) as a diamond shaped star on the banner of Gondor, along with the six other stars of Elendil and his captains.

I have no references, but I believe the descendents of Eärendil might just have happened to be very keen on green jewels after his little trip.

Welcome to the Downs!

[Ardent]

Thanks for the welcome Aganzir. I don't know how I typed 'Palantiri' but I meant 'Silmarils' as you say.

As to Aragorn's green gem I'm not sure if it was a family trend to wear such gems or if it was supposed to be the actual heirloom handed down from Earendil. The same ambiguity surrounds Aragorn's relationship to Beren; are Aragorn and Arwen reincarnations of Beren and Luthien or are they 'of a type' with them?
The same goes for the star in his crown; is the star sailing with Earendil in the sky, is it in the crown of Gondor, or even in the phial of Galadriel?

Part of the wonder of these tales is that they do not have to be 'either/or'; they can be both.

[Aiwendil]

As to Aragorn's green gem I'm not sure if it was a family trend to wear such gems or if it was supposed to be the actual heirloom handed down from Earendil.

Aragorn's green gem was the Elessar. Earendil's green gem was also the Elessar, but it is not certain whether it was the same gem, or whether Aragorn's had been made in memory of Earendil's. Tolkien's notes on the subject can be found in Unfinished Tales, in the chapter 'The History of Galadriel and Celeborn'.

Also, welcome to the 'Downs, Ardent! I agree that the ambiguities and alternative versions of Tolkien's stories are part of what makes them so appealing.

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by Ardent

I don't know how I typed 'Palantiri' but I meant 'Silmarils' as you say.

Yes, I figured as much.

It would be cool to have Eärendil travel with a Palantír though - a bit like satellite images!

[Ardent]

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

... Tolkien's notes on the subject can be found in Unfinished Tales, in the chapter 'The History of Galadriel and Celeborn'...

With regard to Tolkien's notes, a further possible explanation of the seven stars comes to mind: that the stars can themselves be people.

In the fall of Gondolin Glorfindel plunges to his death in battle with a balrog, but in Tolkien's notes he is brought back to live in Valinor from whence he returns to Middle Earth with the Maia, including Olorin (Gandalf). At the ford of Bruinen Glorfindel reveals himself as a being of light in order to drive the Nazgul into the flood. Gandalf reveals himself in a similar way at various points in Lord of the Rings, even falling in a repeat of Glorfindel's battle, while Galadriel repeats Gandalf's trick of transformation when offered the Ring. These are examples of dual natures, I'm sure there are others that are more or less explicit.

[Snowdog]

Quenta Silmarillion 19, Of Beren and Lúthien
"And in answer he sang a song of challenge that he had made in praise of the Seven Stars, the Sickle of the Valar that Varda hung above the North as a sign for the fall of Morgoth."

It seems, with the exception of Mithalwen, that Groin Redbeard's quote has been either overlooked or ignored. The seven stars of the Sickle of Varda was in the night sky over the Northern Kingdom of Arnor. Though I'm not sure it's mentioned anywhere, I think it was a part of Arnor's banner, and Arwen made the seven stars a part of the united kingdom banner that Aragorn unfurled on the Corsair ship as he came upriver.

[Galadriel55]

The stars are probably called that because of Gondor's flag. But what do they represent on the flag? Sickle, ships, it all works.

[Ardent]

Originally Posted by Snowdog

...The seven stars of the Sickle of Varda was in the night sky over the Northern Kingdom of Arnor...

Presumably this would also explain why they were incorporated into Durin's emblems on the gates of Moria. Wasn't Eregion/Hollin part of the realm of Arnor?

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Ardent

Presumably this would also explain why they were incorporated into Durin's emblems on the gates of Moria. Wasn't Eregion/Hollin part of the realm of Arnor?

I suppose it depends whether or not the stars of Kheled-zâram were the same as the Sickle of the Valar.
Here's a link I stumbled upon which argues that Durin's Crown was a different constellation to the Valacirca:
http://dwarrowscholar.mymiddleearth....ven-astronomy/

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Ardent

Presumably this would also explain why they were incorporated into Durin's emblems on the gates of Moria. Wasn't Eregion/Hollin part of the realm of Arnor?

Theoretically maybe but I think durin's crown wasanother name for the same stars. In our own world the southern cross is incorporated in to various flags perhaps most notably on the flags of Australia and new zealand.

[Ardent]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

Theoretically maybe but I think durin's crown wasanother name for the same stars. In our own world the southern cross is incorporated in to various flags perhaps most notably on the flags of Australia and new zealand.

Yes, I thought of mentioning them and the Alaskan flag, though that represents Ursa Minor with the (North) Pole Star emphasised. Also I was considering how Ursa Major has variatious colloquial names (the Plough, the Big Dipper...) in much the way the seven stars of Arnor seemingly do.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Originally Posted by Ardent

Presumably this would also explain why they were incorporated into Durin's emblems on the gates of Moria.

From the earliest sketch of the Moria gate, the Stars of Durin were simply clustered regularly around the perimeter of the crown, not in the form of any constellation (although I suppose if one squints just right they might be the Pleiades)

Wasn't Eregion/Hollin part of the realm of Arnor?

Certainly not at that time: Arnor wouldn't come into being for over 2000 years when the Gate was made!

(Even then, Arnor's southern border at its greatest extent was the Greyflood, so it wouldn't have included Hollin.)

[Ardent]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

From the earliest sketch of the Moria gate, the Stars of Durin were simply clustered regularly around the perimeter of the crown, not in the form of any constellation (although I suppose if one squints just right they might be the Pleiades)

The arrangement of the stars on Aragorn's flag does not take the shape of the Plough/Sickle either. Also I recall that it says somewhere that the dwarves tell different and strange tales about their origins, so maybe the had a different tale about the same constellation. But I think I'm reaching somewhat.

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Certainly not at that time: Arnor wouldn't come into being for over 2000 years when the Gate was made!

(Even then, Arnor's southern border at its greatest extent was the Greyflood, so it wouldn't have included Hollin.)

Oh well, it seemed like a neat connection for a moment there.