LotR -- Book 2 - Chapter 08 - Farewell to Lórien

[Estelyn Telcontar]

This chapter completes the Lothlórien trilogy. It begins with another audience of the Fellowship with Celeborn and Galadriel, where their resolve to continue is tested by her gaze. Though they are offered the option of staying in Lothlórien, none of them wish to do so. The decision to choose their goal is postponed by the offer of boats, so that they do not have to decide on which side of the shore they will travel.

Aragorn is shown to be indecisive; his role as leader of the Fellowship means that he cannot freely choose to go to Minas Tirith as he originally wished to do. Boromir’s speech betrays his thoughts once again, with Frodo being the one who notices his budding desire for the Ring.

We are introduced to several Elvish objects that are given to the Fellowship: lembas, the cloaks, and the hithlain ropes. The two poems that are included are both Elven, both sung by Galadriel at their farewell: I sang of leaves is recorded in Common Speech; Ai! laurië lantar lassi súrinen! in Quenya, with a translation immediately following.

I find it interesting that the actual farewell scene is postponed until they have already left, almost as an afterthought; it reminds me of the hobbits’ farewell from Goldberry, which was similarly placed. Celeborn explains the route to them, then Galadriel gives the gifts – after drinking the ritual cup of parting with them. We’ve already mentioned that she calls him “a giver of gifts beyond the power of kings” in the previous chapter, but that she is the one who distributes the gifts. I think we can assume that the gifts are from both of them, so that it doesn’t matter much – or does it?

I will not elaborate on the individual gifts, as I’m sure that those will be discussed enthusiastically! I stumbled over Galadriel’s words to Gimli, though: “You shall not be the only guest without a gift.” Now, she had prepared gifts for all the others, so I cannot imagine that she would deliberately have left him out! Did she know his heart and want to give him the opportunity to present his request? What was the reason for this special treatment?

I must say, this scene and the closing conversation of Gimli with Legolas endeared the Dwarf to me forever. His poetic words and gallantry are lovely and touching! I have quite a few of those sentences underlined in my book:

Little did I know where the chief peril lay!
…I would not have come, had I known the danger of light and joy. Now I have taken my worst wound in this parting…
…all such comfort is cold. Memory is not what the heart desires. That is only a mirror…

What are your favourite parts of this chapter? What is your opinion on the poems, the character development, the gifts?

(In closing, I’d like to point to a very well-done reverse version of “I sang of leaves” which Elennar Starfire wrote and posted here just today.)

[Boromir88]

Finally, I can post what I've been trying to for the past two weeks, lol.

So far we have seen Boromir against every decision of the Fellowship (Moria, Lothlorien, then later Amon Hen). Of course we don't miss any of his complaining either. And it has got me thinking, is Boromir in the Fellowship for the wrong reasons? I think the answer comes out the most in this chapter.

"As for me," said Boromir, "my way home lies onward and not back."
"That is true," said Celeborn, "but is all this Company going with you to Minas Tirith?"

"If my advice is heeded, it will be the western shore, and the way to Minas Tirith," answered Boromir. "But I am not the leader of the Company."

Boromir is all gunho about going to Minas Tirith. Earlier chapters we heard him say, "I won't go unless all votes of the Company are against me (which they were). Now we see him, he's committed to going to Minas Tirith, and it just makes you wonder if that's the only reason he joined the company? We already knew he was heading to Minas Tirith, from the Council, but if you ask me it's the wrong reason of joining. All the other members joined to help Frodo out, Gandalf just comes off to me like he would never leave Frodo. Legolas and Gimli are tested from staying in Lothlorien, but they continue to prod on, because they can't leave Frodo. Of course none of the Hobbits will leave Frodo. Where Boromir is tested, he has a choice of staying and helping Frodo (like the others) or he could go home. I left Aragorn out for this reason. He too originally joined the Company to head for Minas Tirith, he thought it was his time, but then we see this in Farewell to Lorien.

His own plan, while Gandalf remained with them, had been to go with Boromir, and with his sword help to deliver it to Gondor. For he believed that the message of the dreams was a summons, and that the hour had come at last when the heir of Elendil should come forth and strive with Sauron for the mastery. But in Moria the burden of Gandalf had been laid on him; and he knew that he could not now forsake the Ring, if Frodo refused in the end to go with Boromir.

Aragorn's original plans were to go to Minas Tirith, but with Gandalf died, he too can't bring himself to leaving Frodo. It seems to me, as the other members of the Company can't leave Frodo, they refuse their own "wishes" to help Frodo. Gimli and Legolas don't want to leave Lorien, but they do because as Gimli says laters "he can't abandon the company now." Aragorn, thought his time to bring the sword to Gondor had come, but if Frodo refuses to go, he can't just leave Frodo. So, Boromir is the only one that would choose his "wish" of heading to Minas Tirith, instead of going on with Frodo. He would abandon Frodo, if it came down to it, if it came down between Frodo or Minas Tirith, it was Minas Tirith. Where the other members, their will would cause them to stay with Frodo. Just makes me wonder, did Boromir join the fellowship for the wrong reasons?

[Encaitare]

We've been talking a lot about that guy who seems to tag along with Galadriel all the time, who is supposed to be incredibly wise and a great giver of gifts. While Imladris certainly stuck up for the poor, oft-forgotten Elven Lord, the general consensus seemed to be that he wasn't really living up to his reputation. Here, though, we see a decision Celeborn makes that does reflect wisdom: his choice to provide the Fellowship with boats.

Boromir has wanted to go back to Minas Tirith since the start, and yet the others are not sure if they should follow him there or make their way directly to Mordor. Having boats delays the necessity of making their choice, which may very well separate them should they choose different ways.

Is there wisdom in delaying the inevitable? I think that in this case it was a good idea, for it gave them the chance to think things over a bit more (even though things didn't turn out as planned at all).

Argh... I just found a typo in my book... and that irks me.

[mark12_30]

IMO, the Lorien boats were no minor gift. The exhibit at the Museum of Science in Boston drove this home; I know pea-pods and double-enders, and I'm not unfamiliar with canoes.

A hundred years ago when wooden boatmaking was common in Sebago and environs, a boat like the one Boromir rode down the falls would sell for upwards of three hundred dollars, take all winter to make, and represent the farmer's primary (sometimes only) winter income.

If someone gave me a boat like that for three or four days use (knowing I would discard it afterwards), I'd consider it a major gift. Hand carved paddles? Rope? Provisions? Yup. Good stuff.

Thanks, Celeborn.

[Tuor of Gondolin]

A key question here is was it a wise decision to provide boats and thus put off a
decision. Given following book descriptions (and ignoring the movie) it would
seem that on either side of the Anduin there would have been at least a period of
relative freedom from immediate danger. If the eastern side was chosen Boromir would presumably have left the fellowship, to the benefit of Gondor (at least during the War of the Ring), and with obvious major changes in the story plot. If the western side of the Anduin one would presume the existent plot would basically have remained intact. I am not at all convinced that it was a wise decision to take to the boats. When reading that passage I'm always struck by a feeling that a crucial "decision" is made, for some reason, more so then in say, entering Moria. Atmospherically, it has the feel to me of the scene (and music) in the movie "Death on the Nile" when the cruise ship sets off down the Nile.

[davem]

Apologies in advance for this long post - I won't requires notes from anyone to be excused from reading it!

’Here is the gift of Celeborn & Galadriel to the leader of your Company,’ she said to Aragorn, & she gave him a sheath that had been made to fit his sword.... The blade that is drawn from this sheath shall not be stained or broken even in defeat.’ she said

Then Sir Arthur looked on the sword, & liked it passing well. Whether liketh you better, said Merlin, the sword or the scabbard? Me liketh better the sword, said Arthur. Ye are more unwise, said Merlin, for the scabbard is worth ten of the swords, for whiles ye have the scabbard upon you, ye shall never lose no blood, be ye never so sore wounded; therefore keep well the scabbard always with you. (Sir Thomas Malory, ‘Le Morte D’Arthur’.)

While in the Arthurian story the Lady of the Lake gives the King both sword & scabbard, & Galadriel gives the scabbard alone, & while the power of the scabbard is different in each case, I think we can see some similarities. In each case the scabbard is a powerful magical implement, & in each case it is given by a powerful otherworld ‘goddess’ figure associated with the element of water. Symbolically the sword is a ‘male’ object, the scabbard is ‘female’, so in both examples we see the protective power of the female. But how different are the two scabbards in what they actually do? Excalibur’s scabbard will protect Arthur from death - no matter how badly wounded he may be. Excalibur is the weapon of the King, the divinely appointed ruler of the Land - it symbolises his power & his authority to rule - authority given to him by the otherworldly powers. While Arthur carries the scabbard he will not be defeated, &, we may suppose, like the sword, it is to be handed on to his heirs, who will have similar luck, due to the blessing of the otherworldly powers.

Similarly, Anduril is not simply Aragorn’s sword - it is an heirloom of his house, forged from the shards of his ancestor’s sword. So, it too symbolises Aragorn’s power & authority, & the gift of the scabbard carries the blessing of the Elves’, the otherworldly ‘powers’ within Middle-earth. It is gifted by their ‘Queen’, & received by the King on a visit to the Otherworld, just as with Arthur. We know the Company have been in the otherworld, in the world of dreams, not simply by the atmosphere of the place, by the ‘magic’ they experience there, but also by clear statements made, first & most clearly, by Celeborn, who greets Aragorn with the words:

’Welcome Aragorn son of Arathorn!’ he said. ‘It is eight & thirty years of the world outside since you came to this land

(which clearly implies a different kind of time existing outside Lorien)

&, secondly & more subtly, by the author, who tells us:

..no sound or dream disturbed their slumber.

while in Lorien.

Why not? Because they are already dreaming - their whole experience in the golden Wood is a kind of extended ‘waking’ dream. This ‘dream’ begins with Frodo falling asleep in the Mallorn tree on the borders of Lorien:

At last lulled by the wind in the boughs above , & the sweet murmur of the falls of Nimrodel below, Frodo fell asleep with the song of Legolas running in his mind.

& ends with him ‘falling asleep’ once more, prior to his ‘awakening’ in the ‘real’ world, at the end of the chapter:

Frodo sat & listened to the faint lap & gurgle of the river fretting among the tree-roots & driftwood near the shore, until his head nodded & he fell into an uneasy sleep.

Frodo (& the others) fall ‘asleep’ in ‘our’ world & wake up in the otherworld at the beginning of their dream, & fall ‘asleep’ in the otherworld & awaken in ‘our’ world at the end of it, bearing gifts from its inhabitants.

Tolkien originally intended to emphasise this dreamlike aspect of Lorien by having no time pass while the company were there. CT comments (The Treason of Isengard p285-6) :

When Haldir reappeared to act as their guide from Caras Galadon...he said...’There are strange things happening away back there. We do not know what is the meaning of them.’ This was subsequently struck out on the fair copy, bu tthen marked stet; this was in turn struck out & Haldir’s words do not appear in the following text of the chapter in FR. It is very hard to see why my father removed them, & why he hesitated back & forth before finally doing so. Apparently as a comment on this, he pencilled a note on the manuscript: ‘This won’t do - if Lorien is timeless then nothing will have happened since they entered.’ I can only take this to mean that within Lorien the Company existed in a different Time - with mornings & evenings & passing days - while in the world outside Lorien no time passed: they had left that ‘external’ Time, & would return to it at the same moment as they left it.

Tolkien himself notes in reference to the chronology of the story:’Does time cease at Lorien or go faster? So that it might be spring or nearly so.’In an early draft Frodo comments:

The power of the Lady was upon it. So for us there time might have passed, while the world hastened. Or in a little while we could savour much, while the world tarried. The latter was her will.’

So it seems Tolkien was toying with the idea that it was not some ‘innate’ power or aspect of the Otherworld that caused the slowing or ceasing of time but the will of Galadriel herself - Time moves differently (if it moves at all) because she commands it to. This opens up many new areas of speculation - why, for instance, did Tolkien reject the idea - would it have proved too complex or confsing for readers, or would it have made Galadriel too powerful, too dictatorial - too ‘unnatural’? (Flieger’s ‘A Question of Time’ is the best resource for anyone wanting to pursue these ideas further.)

We also get another account of Elven ‘magic’, as Galadriel tells how she ‘created’ Lorien - she ‘sang of leaves, of leaves of gold, & leaves of gold there grew. She then sang of the wind, & the wind struck up & blew through those same leaves. Yet it seems her power of song is fading - her ‘crown’ is now nothing but ‘fading elanor’ - dying flowers, reminding us of ‘Frodo’s Dreme’:

Of river-leaves and the rush-sheaves
I made me a mantle of jewel-green,
a tall wand to hold, and a flag of gold;
my eyes shone like the star-sheen.
With flowers crowned I stood on a mound,
and shrill as a call at cock-crow
proudly I cried: 'Why do you hide?
Why do none speak, wherever I go?
Here now I stand, king of this land,
with gladdon-sword and reed-mace.

We also see her doubt of her own fate expressed here - she has already told Frodo that she will ‘diminish, & go into the West, & remain Galadriel’, but here she seems doubtful - if she ‘sings’ of a ship to bear her into the West will it really come? Maybe she won’t diminish & ‘go into the West’ - maybe she’ll just ‘diminish’. But after all is she as ‘perilous’ as we’ve been led to believe?

Frodo took the phial, & for a moment as it shone between them, he saw her standing again like a queen, great & beautiful, but no longer terrible...

She seemed no longer perilous or terrible, nor filled with hidden power. Already she seemed to him, as by men of later days Elves still at times are seen: present & yet remote, a living vision of that which has already been left behind by the flowing streams of Time....

He bowed, but found no words to say.

Her gifts to Frodo & Sam reflect powerfully their differing visions in the Mirror - Frodo’s is the phial - the light of Earendil, the Silmaril, set amid the waters of her fountain - a mystical gift for one on a mystical journey, a light to illumine his coming ‘Dark Night of the Soul’. Sam’s gift is earth from her orchard to heal the wounds of his beloved Shire; ‘All foretelling may be vain’ as she tells Gimli, yet she can still see into the future, & knows what will be needed.

‘Namarie’, Galadriel’s Lament, is the other poem - Tolkien’s own melody for it is apparently based on Gregorian chant (& he sings it very well). A couple of interesting points are made by Tolkien in ‘The Road Goes Ever On’. First there is the mention of miruvor:

Yeni ve linte yuldar avanier
mi oromardi lisse-miruvoreva
Andune pella Vardo tellumar
nu luini, yassen tintillar i eleni
omaryo aire-tari-lirinen

recalls the cordial of Imladris & Tolkien’s account of it is:

miruvore. According to the Eldar, a word derived from the language of the Valar; the name that they gave to the drink poured out at their festivals. Its making & the meaning of its name were not known for certain, but the Eldar believed it to be made from the honey of the undying flowers in the gardens of Yavanna, though it was clear & translucent.

But is this the same as the miruvor which Elrond gives to Gandalf? If it is it must have come from Valinor, carried by the exiled Noldor, & have been priceless. In itself that would show how seriously Elrond viewed the Quest, & why Gandalf was so sparing with it.

Second, the reference to Varda having ‘uplifted her hands like clouds, & all paths are drowned deep in shadow’. Tolkien explains:

After the destruction of the Two Trees, & the flight from Valinor of the revolting Eldar, Varda lifted up her hands, in obedience to the decree of Manwe, & summoned up the dark shadows which engulfed the shores & the mountains & last of all the fana (figure) of Varda, with her hands turned eastward in rejection, standing white upon Oiolosse.

So, it is Varda, Elbereth Herself, who is symbolically rejecting the return of the Noldor, & in this case specifically denying Galadriel’s return into the West.

Finally, to Gimli’s gift - three golden hairs from her head for an heirloom & a pledge of goodwill between the Mountain & the Wood. Living ‘gold’ - as perfect a symbol of the union of Elven & Dwarven natures as can be imagined - & once set in imperishable crystal it will outlast both races, forever a pledge of good will between those who will soon (relatively speaking) be no more:

For so it seemed to them: Lorien was slipping backward, like a bright ship masted with enchanted trees, sailing on to forgotten shores, while they sat helpless upon the margin of the grey & leafless world.

(Before I end this I want to quote a passage from a post of Squatter’s:

Is this the conversation of two characters without depth? It takes little imagination to see in Legolas' words the pity of the Elves' relations with other races. The mortals move on and leave, but the Elves are trapped within the world, unchanging and unable to follow. The most beautiful of their creations are destroyed, and they live to see most triumph turn back to disaster. Legolas speaks with the voice of experience. He has had many years to learn that we cannot hold on to the world; but Gimli is feeling for the first time the pain that the Elves feel at the passing away of beautiful things: a pain that they live with daily, and must overcome in bringing about the fall of Sauron. Even for one whose memory is like waking life, memory is not enough, and it is telling that Legolas never claims that it is. What he says is that an unstained memory is a great gift, and he has already implied that memory is what everything must eventually become. Who among the Fellowship is so well-placed as he to know this? This is a conversation about very profound thoughts, and if the characters are talking about them, they must also be thinking them. They might be talking about Lórien on the surface, but on a deeper level they are talking about the very relationship between experience and memory. This seems to indicate as well as anything that there is more to Gimli than a solid Dwarven miner and more to Legolas than the woodland prince. It may not come out often, but it is there; and we need to know that it is there if we are to feel for those characters at all.

The full post can be read here:
http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpos...&postcount=127 )

[mark12_30]

Originally Posted by Tuor of Gondolin

If the western side of the Anduin one would presume the existent plot would basically have remained intact.

Why? How would they have crossed the Anduin at all without a boat?

[Boromir88]

Lhunardawen

Funny you should be the one thinking about this...you know...Boromir...

It is rather ironic, but I still love him, lol.

I was under the impression that from the start, Boromir was included in the Fellowship because he was going back to Minas Tirith, and the way to Minas Tirith and the road to Mordor lie together for hundreds of miles or something like that.

Exactly, and Boromir is the only one who can bring himself to leaving the company. He's set, he's going to Minas Tirith, whether no one follows him or not. That was Aragorn's original plan, then we see he too, can't just abandon Frodo. Boromir just was "in" because their paths followed the same road, he wasn't in because he cared for Frodo. Even though Elrond did say people may leave when they wish. I think Boromir's death, and all the times he goes up against the Fellowship, reinforces the fact that Boromir isn't there to "travel with Frodo to the end," he's there to go home, from the START.

Boromir was there because he needed or wanted someone to be with when he goes home. Perhaps he was hoping to do his part in Minas Tirith, where he was in authority and where he can serve in the War against Sauron best.

Very possible.

I'd like to add two thoughts in response to davem's post. Concerning Frodo's and Sam's respective gifts, I was struck by the fact that Frodo's is a gift from the sky, loosed from the earth, while Sam's is earth, rooted in the ground - both very much prophetic of their respective fates!

Esty, nice job of pointing out the symbolism .

There's a couple more things to add.

And Aragorn answered: "Lady, you know all my desire, and long held in keeping the only treasure that I see. Yet it is not yours to give me, even if you would, and only through darkness shall I come to it."

Indeed the Lady does know what Aragorn "truly" seeks, and don't worry Aragorn she does give it to you, or atleast help give it to you, much later in the books .

Then the Lady unbraided one of her long tresses, and cut off three golden hairs, and laid them in Gimli's hand. "These words shall go with the gift," she said. "I do not foretell, for all foretelling is now vain: on the one hand lies darkness, and on the other only hope. But if hope should not fail, then I say to you, Gimli son of Gloin, that your hands shall flow with gold, and yet over you gold shall have NO dominion.

There's a lot here Galadriel is saying. She says "in one hand lies darkness, the other only hope." Is Aragorn the symbolism of Hope, for he was just given Estel.

"This stone I gave to Celebrian my daughter, and she to hers; and now it comes to you as a token of hope.

Gimli had two choices, darkness (which may be going home or abandoning the company who knows), or hope (Aragorn). Gimli can follow hope (which he does through the rest of the story), and if hope does not fail, "his hands will flow with gold, yet over him gold shall have no dominion." Indeed that's a big deal, concerning the dwarves, greed, their greed for more and more riches. Which is why I believe here, Gimli would have been last of the Fellowship to fall to the ring, due to Galadriel's statement, and indeed, in Gimli hope does not fail. As he chooses to stick with "hope" (Aragorn), and not go with darkness (which I feel darkness would be abandoning the company).

[Sapphire_Flame]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

...Boromir[...]'s set, he's going to Minas Tirith, whether no one follows him or not. That was Aragorn's original plan, then we see he too, can't just abandon Frodo. Boromir just was "in" because their paths followed the same road, he wasn't in because he cared for Frodo. Even though Elrond did say people may leave when they wish. I think Boromir's death, and all the times he goes up against the Fellowship, reinforces the fact that Boromir isn't there to "travel with Frodo to the end," he's there to go home, from the START.

That definitely seems to be the case. He was valuable to the Fellowship, whatever his reason for joining them. It is very possible that, were it not for him, Frodo would have been longer in coming to his decision to leave, and the attack by Saruman's uruks would have been all more the damaging to the rest of the Fellowship. Maybe Merry and Pippin wouldn't have been kidnapped (if they didn't leave the presence of Aragorn et al, that could have been the case), therefore not making it to Fangorn to alert the ents of Saruman's treachery. Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli would not have had to go to Fangorn to find Merry and Pippin, so they wouldn't have found Gandalf. Or maybe Merry and Pippin would have been killed by the Uruk-hai, thus not only posing the above problems again, but causing the deaths of Eowyn and Faramir later on.

So, whatever caused his joining the Fellowship, it was well done. Huzzah for Boromir!

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Gimli had two choices, darkness (which may be going home or abandoning the company who knows), or hope (Aragorn). Gimli can follow hope (which he does through the rest of the story), and if hope does not fail, "his hands will flow with gold, yet over him gold shall have no dominion." Indeed that's a big deal, concerning the dwarves, greed, their greed for more and more riches. Which is why I believe here, Gimli would have been last of the Fellowship to fall to the ring, due to Galadriel's statement, and indeed, in Gimli hope does not fail. As he chooses to stick with "hope" (Aragorn), and not go with darkness (which I feel darkness would be abandoning the company).

And to think, there are all those silly people who think Gimli would have been the next to fall for the Ring. Lord, what fools these mortals be.

Abedithon le,

~ Saphy ~

[Boromir88]

That definitely seems to be the case. He was valuable to the Fellowship, whatever his reason for joining them. It is very possible that, were it not for him, Frodo would have been longer in coming to his decision to leave, and the attack by Saruman's uruks would have been all more the damaging to the rest of the Fellowship. Maybe Merry and Pippin wouldn't have been kidnapped (if they didn't leave the presence of Aragorn et al, that could have been the case), therefore not making it to Fangorn to alert the ents of Saruman's treachery. Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli would not have had to go to Fangorn to find Merry and Pippin, so they wouldn't have found Gandalf. Or maybe Merry and Pippin would have been killed by the Uruk-hai, thus not only posing the above problems again, but causing the deaths of Eowyn and Faramir later on.

Saphire, very true. There is another scenario I have cooked up with in my own little head. If Boromir hadn't of went crazy on Frodo, Frodo wouldn't have learned what the Ring was doing to the Fellowship. Boromir was only the first to fall, and he taught Frodo a lesson, taught Frodo he had to get out of there, before it was the end of the quest!

[Lhunardawen]

Hobbits seem to have unleashed their fascination for magic in the Lothlorien trilogy!

Sam said in the previous chapter:

I'd dearly love to see some Elf-magic, Mr. Frodo!

In this chapter Pippin says:

Are these magic cloaks?

I just found it amusing.

Arguably, the most interesting gift given by Galadriel to the Company was Gimli's. If we try to remember the events two ages ago, we'll see that this has happened before; that someone asked Galadriel for some of her hair. The first to make such a request was Feanor, and from Galadriel's hair it was said he found the inspiration for making the Silmarils. But despite her close kinship with Feanor, Galadriel refused his request. But two ages had passed, and here a Dwarf makes the same request, and she willingly obliged!

[the phantom]

is Boromir in the Fellowship for the wrong reasons?

No.
(not unless you think Aragorn also went along for the wrong reason)

All the other members joined to help Frodo out

Not Aragorn. He was also headed for Minas Tirith. But you obviously know that because you said-

I left Aragorn out for this reason. He too originally joined the Company to head for Minas Tirith

Huh? Why is that a reason to leave Aragorn out when it is precisely what you are criticizing Boromir for? He had the same plan as Boromir and somehow his plan is fine but Boromir's is not?

But in Moria the burden of Gandalf had been laid on him; and he knew that he could not now forsake the Ring, if Frodo refused in the end to go with Boromir.

This does not change anything. Aragorn's original plan was to go to Minas Tirith. The burden of Gandalf had been laid on him, not Boromir, so why should Boromir's plans change? Just think- if Gandalf had come through Moria then Aragorn would have been willing to abandon Frodo and go to Minas Tirith (just like Boromir). Would that have made Aragorn's reasons for being in the Fellowship wrong?

No.

If the eastern side was chosen Boromir would presumably have left the fellowship, to the benefit of Gondor (at least during the War of the Ring), and with obvious major changes in the story plot. If the western side of the Anduin one would presume the existent plot would basically have remained intact. I am not at all convinced that it was a wise decision to take to the boats.

Yes, Boro probably would've split had they chosen the eastern bank- but who else might've split?

Remember, when they reached Rauros Aragorn was leaning heavily towards dividing the Fellowship. He suggested that Frodo, Sam, and Gimli would continue on towards Mordor and the rest would go with Boromir (Aragorn planned on staying with Frodo).

So if they had to make that decision earlier who is to say that Legolas, Merry, and Pippin would not have gone with Boromir? That definitely would've changed things.

But if they would've chosen the western bank... how do they get to Mordor???

There isn't a place to cross the Anduin until Gondor so the Fellowship would stay together and likely end up in Minas Tirith. That could change the story in many ways.

I think the boats were a super super gift. It moved the point of no return back a little.

[Boromir88]

staying with the Fellowship was in fact morally the wrong course for him to take.

Ahh, then wouldn't joining the Fellowship be morally wrong? Boromir went to Rivendell to get his riddle and questions answered. He did that, so now he was going back to do his civic duty in Minas Tirith. I think Boromir makes an important part of the Fellowship indeed. He provides strength when they need it the most (Caradhras, The Great River), he is one of the best fighters in the company, and he helps Frodo realize he needs to get out of the company before another member becomes a "Boromir." So, there was no doubt of his importance of being in the Fellowship, but you have to ask the question why did he join. If he is wind against the "fellowship sail," always fighting with them, we can tell that he wishes to be the leader of the company, with his words to Celeborn. "If my advice is heeded, we will....but I am not the leader of the Company." Just, makes me wonder if he joined it for the wrong reasons, ok we get the fact he's valuable to the Company, and we know the only reason he went along was to go back to Minas Tirith. With all that happens to Gandalf, Boromir can still leave the company, Aragorn can't. I don't see it as Gandalf's burdens were "forced upon him," Aragorn willingly took on Gandalf's burdens.

If Boromir joined the Fellowship to try to sabotage it, or to steal the Ring,

Interesting you should say that. In one of Tolkien's earlier drafts Boromir actually does join league with Saruman. He lives, goes to Minas Tirith with Aragorn. Aragorn takes claim to the throne, Boromir starts a Civil War, Aragorn kills him before he gets too much support. Now, Tolkien threw out this idea, but you wonder if it would have any relevance/influence on the final story? That is also open to debate.

In any event, my view is that Boromir had by now become so attached to Frodo, or more specifically that which Frodo was carrying, that he would not have left him even had the opportunity arisen. And assuming that to be the case,

That SpM, we just happen to have total different opinions (both ways can be supported). We have both made it clear on what we think on that matter, so no sense in repeating myself. This is of course why I love Tolkien, I wonder if this was his plan to let us make inferences and get our Tolkienists minds going, lol. Sort of like Henry James .

[davem]

I must thank everyone for this discussion of Boromir - I’ve been thinking a lot about him recently, & I think my opinions are changing. This will be a bit fumbling & possibly a bit contradictory, as I’m trying to put some thoughts together.

I think we have to ask what Tolkien actually wanted to do with Boromir. He goes, in the early drafts, from the only human presence in the Fellowship, through various phases, becoming a villain as [b]B88[/i] has indicated, to his final incarnation of flawed ‘hero’, bravely sacrificing himself for Merry & Pippin.

The question is: is Boromir’s final incarnation simply an amalgam of bits & pieces from the earlier accounts & a foil for the others, or is he a valid character in his own right?

Well, he’s believable - he doesn’t come across as an amalgam. He has many obvious faults, but also many virtues. As to the question of whether he would have left Frodo & gone on to Minas Tirith if he’d survived depends on whether he’d been overwhelmed by his desire for the Ring against his will, or whether he’d willingly surrendered to it.

Did Tolkien intend him to be seen as a ‘Judas’ figure - a ‘satan’ within the Fellowship, the one who betrayed Frodo & brought about his death? It seems that he was motivated by desire for power - not simply power to defeat Sauron, but power for its own sake - yet that was natural in a sense: he’d been brought up to rule, & probably the only person he’d ever taken orders from was his father. This would put him in an incredibly difficult position, as he surrendered his natural authority first to Gandalf, then to Aragorn & finally (in a struggle he lost) to Frodo. He has gone from being a ruling ‘prince’ & commander, to a footsoldier having to obey orders. Lets give him his due, he submits to external authority better than many in his position would have.

Certainly, all his suggestions are valid (apart from the last one he makes to Frodo). He may glory in war, but it is a ‘just’ war. His suggestion at the council, to use the Ring against Sauron, may have been dismissed but it was a rational reaction - he at least didn’t suggest throwing it into the sea!

In the second branch of the Mabinogion, ‘Branwen, Daughter of Llyr’, we find two brothers - Nissien & Efnissien:

Nissien & Efnissien - peaceful & not-so-peaceful are the translations of their names - are polarised to no purpose in this story, since Nissien contributes nothing to the action. Efnissien’s role as disruptor is readily parallelled throughout mythology & folkstory...Efnissien is fated to wreak havoc on both family & nation.....(but) He is the champion of Sovereignty & the land of Britain (Matthews, ‘Mabon & the Mysteries of Britain’

Basically, the story is that The ‘Irish’ (Otherworldly) King, Matholwch, comes to Britain & weds with the Princess Branwen. Efnissien objects & insults the ‘Irish’ visitors. The marriage goes ahead anyway & as a wedding gift the Irish are given a magic cauldron - if the dead are placed in it they will be brought back to life. Later the British discover Branwen is being abused by Matholwch, so they set sail to free her. A battle ensues which the British look to be losing, as every time an ‘Irish’ warrior is killed he is placed in the cauldron & brought back to life. To stop this happening, Efnissien lays himself among the ‘Irish’ dead, & is placed in the cauldron. When this happens the cauldorn shatters.

Efnissien’s only redress is to break the cauldron’s power by entering it as a living man...However we guess at his likely motivation, & lament his actions, Efnissien’s death is a noble one.(ibid)

Efnissien is not ‘admirable’, but he is a great defender of his people - he kills 200 ‘Irish’ warriors who are hiding in sacks hung up in the Hall waiting to spring out in ambush.

Like Efnissien, Boromir is a great defender of his people, a great patriot, but this makes him intolerant & contemptuous of others - not uncommon in our own times - how many times do we hear, instead of ‘This is a great democracy’, ‘This is the greatest democracy’, or instead of ‘This is one of the best countries in the world’ that ‘This is the best country in the world’ with little or no evidence to back that claim up? Boromir is too certain of himself, his people & his nation, but while that may be a fault it is motivated by a sincere & deeply felt love.

He would have died willingly for Gondor, but before he joined the Fellowship he wouldn’t have died for a couple of hobbits. Basically, his experiences break him of his pride & his desire, & that only becomes possible when he has sunk as low as possible. My own sense is that Boromir’s growing desperation is due less to a desire for the Ring - which is merely the catalyst - & more to an awakening into maturity. He’s fighting against all the values & beliefs he’s been brought up with - power, control, the superiority of Gondor - I think this is what the Ring comes to symbolise for him. Its this inner conflict which explodes in his confrontation with Frodo. Basically, he’s ‘torn in two’, fighting on two fronts.

As much as anything his attempt to claim the Ring for himself is a temporary victory of his old self over his slowly emerging new self. I’m not sure I agree that his desire for the Ring would have re-asserted itself if he’d survived. A ‘madness’ took him, but it passed, & as Aragorn told him, in the end he had conquered.

I’m starting to feel that Boromir’s story is one of spiritual growth - he begins as cocky, self assured & intolerant & is gradually humbled & eventually broken. In the end he arises as a new person. While it may have been better for the Company of Faramir had gone instead of Boromir, it wouldn’t have been better for Boromir. Effectively, he was saved in the end, & became a hero, but, more importantly, he became a good man.

So, while perhaps we may find out a lot about Aragorn by comparing him with Boromir, I think Boromir is more than just a foil to the greater hero.

[HerenIstarion]

While it may have been better for the Company if Faramir had gone instead of Boromir, it wouldn’t have been better for Boromir.

Good and proper. To back you up here, let me quote you Tolkien himself (mouthed by Gandalf, in the chapter still to be discussed, but worthy quote it is):

'You have not said all that you know or guess, Aragorn my friend,' he said quietly. 'Poor Boromir! I could not see what happened to him. It was a sore trial for such a man: a warrior, and a lord of men. Galadriel told me that he was in peril. But he escaped in the end. I am glad. It was not in vain that the young hobbits came with us, if only for Boromir's sake

[drigel]

All this Boromir talk ....
Davem, I agree on your analysis you just posted. Boromir joining the fellowship for the wrong reasons...,, etc IMO strays a little from the authors intent (at least in the final version of the character). Comparing Boromir to Aragorn is like comparing Celeborn to Galadriel. Apples and oranges. On a symbolic level, the fellowship was a representation of the free peoples of ME. I love the Efnissien analogy.

To me, Aragorn symbolized the ideal of mankind. Boromir symbolized the reality of men, especially at this time in ME. This was a very dirty, complex and hazardous time for men, esp in the south. They werent fighting Sauron for ideals, they were fighting him for survival. I dont think there was much concern for the other free peoples of ME, although Im sure that they would credit themselves as being the bulwark for their surivival for most of the 3rd age if the opportunity presented itself. With Boromir comes the complexities and politics of leadership of men that comes with dealing with these circumstances as well. With him we see the reality of humans as we are today, only juxtapositioned to the reality of his time, where more ancient principles or ideals still had an influence, as personified by elven leadership and even Aragorn himself.

I also see Boromirs interaction and reaction with Galadriel as the real future of elf human relations if you will. Aragorn (and some of his lineage no doubt) held the hope for a higher ideal for mankind (based on a real physical link to elven culture), but in the big scheme of things, this was only a blip on the map. Boromir represented the reality of how men would relate to elves - wary - esp towards the otherworldly or witchcrafty elements of elves. Ignorant yes, but if your stuck in the "here and now" and do not posess the gifts that elves had, only the truly learned (or gifted) would not have this attitude.

At the end of this chapter, I see Boromir affected in a positive way by the Lorien experience, if only by the confrontation of the feelings he had towards the ring and the mission. These are the same feelings he pronounced at the Council. Nothing has changed, exept perhaps his reflections now are on a deeper level. Elrond and Galadriel knew - his role in the mission was sort of a representation of the humans mission in ME - with all the weaknesses and flaws that men had, they were the ones who were going to be the dominant power for good that would be the only hope to counter Sauron. There simply werent enough elves (or Dunedain for that matter) to make a difference anymore. Regular men - just like us - who have the capability for both good and evil. If they could not fundamentally trust Boromir, then there really is no hope. Galadriel did not wake a sleeping monster in him, his monster resides in every human.

[The Saucepan Man]

Tsk. Look at us all discussing Boromir when there is so much more in this Chapter. Then again, to my mind, he is one of the most complex and fascinating characters in the book.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Ahh, then wouldn't joining the Fellowship be morally wrong?

No, because at that stage he had no inclination to seize the Ring by force, and because he vowed to protect the Ringbearer as long as he stayed with the Company (and that's all he agreed to do). It was only once the Ring started to take a hold over him to the extent that he could contemplate seizing it by force that it might be described as morally wrong for him to remain with the Fellowship.

Originally Posted by davem

My own sense is that Boromir’s growing desperation is due less to a desire for the Ring - which is merely the catalyst - & more to an awakening into maturity. He’s fighting against all the values & beliefs he’s been brought up with - power, control, the superiority of Gondor - I think this is what the Ring comes to symbolise for him. Its this inner conflict which explodes in his confrontation with Frodo. Basically, he’s ‘torn in two’, fighting on two fronts.

While I take your point concerning Boromir's transformation, I do not see this as occuring during the exchange with Frodo in Lothlorien. For me, it simply doesn't fit with the dialogue. Boromir is 'torn in two', yes. But his inner conflict is between his duty to return to Minas Tirith and the desire for the Ring which has awoken within him. Frodo guesses Boromir's unspoken words - that it would be folly to throw the Ring into the Fire. In Rivendell, Boromir took this position on a rational basis believing that it could be put to better use to defend Gondor and challenge Sauron. But now it is based on an "irrational" desire for the Ring.

To my mind, Boromir's transformation from pride to humility does not occur until after he attempts to seize the Ring from Frodo. As I said, I like to think that he does truly repent at that point and find redemption, and the quote supplied by HI would support this view.

Originally Posted by davem

I’m not sure I agree that his desire for the Ring would have re-asserted itself if he’d survived. A ‘madness’ took him, but it passed, & as Aragorn told him, in the end he had conquered.

I never said that it would have. My point is that the desire remained latent within him from this point (Lothlorien) on until the point at which Frodo escapes from his assault. At that stage he was 'released', although I will reserve judgment on whether he truly conquered his desire or whether the Ring simply had no further use for him (Frodo having escaped) until we reach the relevant Chapter.

Originally Posted by drigel

Galadriel did not wake a sleeping monster in him, his monster resides in every human.

I agree that the 'monster', namely the potential for corruption, resides within every human. Indeed, I think that every member of the Fellowship was vulnerable to it (although I have always held that the Hobbits were best equipped to resist it). And, in a sense, Galadriel did wake the 'sleeping monster' within him, since she confronted him with his heart's desire. Why him and not the others? Well, I would certainly say that he was the most vulnerable to the Ring's wiles. And I would suggest that this was because he was, mentally, the weakest, and because he already thought that it would be folly to destroy it and saw an alternative solution in wielding it against Sauron. Boromir's desire was not caused by Galadriel - she simply confronted him with what was already there. And it was already there because the Ring had identified him as a point of vulnerability and was seeking to use him to find its way back to its Master.

As I have said previously, I believe that Boromir would have made a play for the Ring eventually, even without Galadriel revealing this desire to him - it just would have taken longer (and could, potentially, have been more dangerous).

[the phantom]

In Rivendell, Boromir took this position on a rational basis believing that it could be put to better use to defend Gondor and challenge Sauron. But now it is based on an "irrational" desire for the Ring.

I'm not sure I agree that his desire was "irrational".

This is irrational-> expecting a hobbit to safely enter a heavily guarded land, travel for miles and miles without getting caught, and destroy a ring he could not willingly throw into his little fire at home.

To Boromir this idea seems much more irrational than attempting to use the Ring.

Boromir was a strong-willed man, a leader, and a righteous warrior. Someone so strong is likely to disbelieve the notion that they could be mastered or ensnared by a greater will, in this case the Ring, which leads to my next point...

Well, I would certainly say that he was the most vulnerable to the Ring's wiles. And I would suggest that this was because he was, mentally, the weakest, and because he already thought that it would be folly to destroy it and saw an alternative solution in wielding it against Sauron.

I agree with the first part and the last part, but I do not agree that he was "mentally, the weakest".

Boromir was strong, and a leader, and was used to ruling and having his judgments heard and obeyed. He thought that he could use the Ring safely because he was strong, and he certainly had more faith in his own strength than in the apparent "folly" of the quest.

For instance, if my little 6-year-old cousin and I found the Ring and were told "If you use the Ring it will take you over", my cousin wouldn't use it, but I might.

Why? Because I'm weaker mentally? No. Because I'm strong- and I would believe that, despite the warning, my strength would be enough to do it. My cousin, on the other hand, is not used to doing things the way he pleases but used to following his elders and so would trust and obey the judgment of his elders.

Do you understand what I mean?

[Boromir88]

Phantom, you bring up some good points.

I'm not sure I agree that his desire was "irrational".

This is irrational-> expecting a hobbit to safely enter a heavily guarded land, travel for miles and miles without getting caught, and destroy a ring he could not willingly throw into his little fire at home.

Boromir's plan is irrational, but you are right that it's definately rational compared to the other plan, which is practically like suicide.

I agree with the first part and the last part, but I do not agree that he was "mentally, the weakest".

Possibly, he may not be the "weakest mentally." As we see Aragorn take on the role of Gandalf, he too becomes "mentally weak." When the proper chapters come, I will point out the quotes. But, these last closing chapters, he begins to doubt himself, and get down on himself for the decisions he made. Basically he blames himself for the whole problem that occurred (capturing of Merry and Pippin, death of Boromir, running off of Frodo), he goes through this tough period where he doubts himself.

Why? Because I'm weaker mentally? No. Because I'm strong- and I would believe that, despite the warning, my strength would be enough to do it. My cousin, on the other hand, is not used to doing things the way he pleases but used to following his elders and so would trust and obey the judgment of his elders.

Do you understand what I mean?

That makes sense, I think we can see that in Boromir's word's at the council of Elrond.

"I do not understand all this," he (Boromir) said. "Saruman is a traitor, but did he not have a glimpse of wisdom? Why do you speak ever of hiding and destroying? Why should we not think that the Great Ring has come into our hands to serve us in the very hour of our need? Wielding it the Free Lords of the Free may surely defeat the Enemy. That is what he most fears, I deem.
"The men of Gondor are valiant, and they will never submit, but they may be beaten down. Valour needs first strength, and then a weapon. Let the Ring be your weapon, if it has such power as you say. Take it forth and go forth to victory!"

You are right, I think Boromir doesn't believe it would be able to corrupt such a man as he, or one of these "free lords." He speaks of. A situation we can connect to this would be Denethor and the Palantir. Denethor didn't "view" the palantir because he was "mentally weak." He viewed it because he thought he had the strength to combat Sauron, now obviously he doesn't have the power of Sauron, so in time his "mind broke" because he lost the "battle" with Sauron, but it wasn't because he was mentally weak, nice point. I would go in further, but I'm afraid Esty will repremmand me, so maybe I can make it a thread of my own.

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Estelyn Telcontar

I must say, this scene and the closing conversation of Gimli with Legolas endeared the Dwarf to me forever. His poetic words and gallantry are lovely and touching! I have quite a few of those sentences underlined in my book:

here just today.)

I regression perhaps rather than a digression: I share some of of Estelyn's feelings about this conversation. For me, it voices a "fundamental truth", which stands free of it's context. Legolas' words of comfort are not pat or trite but sincere and beautiful but yet they do not truly console. "Memory is not what the heart desires" is a phrase that must surely sound a chord for all, save those perhaps who have not lived long enough enough to encounter bereavemen or loss or have not faced a choice between "duty" and "desire" - and few of us reach adulthood so unmarked. If it weren't such an odd word to use about an exchange between elf and dwarf, I would say that it was very human! Also human is the deliberate switch to weak humour when the conversation has gone "deeper" than normal, to return it to a normal level.

[Bêthberry]

Well, now that everyone has posted their thoughts about the psychology of Boromir, I can weigh in with my thoughts about the narrative requirements for the character. This is not to deny the very interesting comments which all have made here; I seem to be more interested less in the question of "what kind of person is Boromir" and more interested in the question, "if a writer throws various characters together on a quest, how are those characters determined by the needs of the quest and the story?"

In our discussions, we often seem to be moving between two poles, of realism and of fantasy. I would say that, for me, this chapter partakes more of sybolism than realism, although the later is not absent.

What do I mean by this? I mean that so much of what is given here seems more than just ... given. There are portents to most aspects of the chapter which are in keeping with the nature of Lorien as the land of fairey. davem, your references to the Mabingolion increase my interest. The more I think about the old Celtic tales the more I think we should have a thread devoted to the uses Tolkien might have made of them. There is something more here than the oft-stated desire to creat a mythology for England. What do you think, davem?

But to return to what I mean by the symbolic aspects of the chapter. It is, of course, the completion of this section which as Aiwendil has pointed out bears many structural affinities with the three chapter of respite in Book I. The Anduin is not just a river to traverse. It is not simply a conduit from Lothlorien to Minas Tirith but it is a threshold or liminal feature. It balances east and west. "On what side will you journey?" asks Celeborn of the Fellowship, the sides clearly representing on the west the side of light and on the east the side of dark. Boromir states that he will not take the darker shore and would prefer heading for MInas Tirith, but of course he will, ironically, take the darker shore. Here I think we have the subtle interplay of good and evil which suggests that Tolkien's world is not so easily demarcated between the two. For Frodo and Sam, this is a journey into the heart of darkness as much as Conrad's journey was.

Of course, the gifts which the elves offer the Fellowship have their symbolic portents also. But what I think is important is the way this chapter very subtly sets up the roles of Boromir and Aragorn, not only in terms of the realism of character psychology but also in terms of what this quest means. Boromir is still thinking in terms of Gondor.

"As for me," said Boromir," my way home lies onward and not back."

Boromir still, at this point (and I think we need to limit ourselves to just this chapter, reading chapter by chapter, and not look ahead to the next book), has his thoughts and sights focussed upon Gondor. (not a criticism) What can we say of Aragorn's thoughts and sights? Certainly we see a character who does not easily decide which path to take. Aragorn is not the Northern Hero with a ready answer and point of view. As such, he will, perhaps somewhat like Hamlet, take a long time coming to decide what his actions should be.

His own plan, while Gandalf remained with them, had been to go with Boromir, and with his sword to help to deliver Gondor. For he believed that the message of the dreams was a summons, and that the hour had come at last when the heir of Elendil should come forth and strive with Sauron for the mastery. But in Moria the burden of Gandalf had been laid on him; and he knew that he could not now forsake the Ring, if Frodo refused in the end to go with Boromir. And yet what help could he or any of the Company give to Frodo, save to walk blindly with him into the darkness?

The juxtaposing of this paragraph is fascinating, for it is followed immediately by that strange rumination of Boromir in which it appears that he hides his thoughts, although only Frodo seems to recognise that Boromir might not have follow completely in with Elrond's "correction."

The chapter concludes with that heartbreaking conversation between Legolas and Gimli which [b]Estelyn and Mithalwen[b] have already mentioned. What is this worst wound which Gimli has taken? It is not the warrior's wound which he had been preparing to take. Rather, it is the horrible wrenching which must come after he has found the greatest good for him. He must foresake the light and joy. Not for Gimli is the satan's test and challenge, for Gimli shall withstand it and not give in to his heart's desire. Beauty is as much a peril as evil. And the true hero is he who holds to the path and does not give in to his desires. It is not a question of being tricked by either Galadriel or the Ring: the responsibility lies within the person. (I would reference that old line from the TV show "Laugh-In" here: "The Devil made me do it.. At least I seem to remember that line being a joking refrain there.)

Then the chapter concludes with the sombre imagery of a night journey upon a silent and desolate river. In the heart of Fairey there is still a lesson to be learned.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Bb

The more I think about the old Celtic tales the more I think we should have a thread devoted to the uses Tolkien might have made of them. There is something more here than the oft-stated desire to create a mythology for England. What do you think, davem?

I'd happily start (or at least contribute to) such a thread - but who's read the Mabinogion here? Shippey goes into Tolkien's sources in depth, & along with Beowulf, Kalevala & the Eddas, we can find many 'lesser' sources which Tolkien has made use of. I also suspect that there are many sources with which he was familiar which we'll never know. Sir Orfeo, Gawain & the Green Knight also influenced him; there are ceertainly 'echoes' of Pearl in the vision of Lothlorien. Even the siegelhearwen make an appearance. But there's also another source - contemporary literature: Blackwood, Dunsany ('Possible Echoes of Blackwood & Dunsany in Tolkien's Fiction' in Tolkien Studies vol1) & Rider-Haggard ('Gagool & Gollum: Exemplars of Degeneration in King Solomon's Mines & The Hobbit' in Tolkien & His Literary Resonances).

Still, this is a bit off topic, so I'll think about a thread.

[davem]

Quick thought.

The Lady bowed her head, & she turned then to Boromir, & to him she gave a belt of gold; & to Merry & Pippin she gave small silver belts, each with a clasp wrought like a golden flower.

Belt: to award a belt, or to invest formally with one, as in conferring Knighthood; adjBelted:wearing a belt, eg of a knight. (Collins Dictionary)

Belt. Belted A reference to the belt & spurs with which Knights were invested. (Brewer’s Dictionary of Phrase & Fable)

Well, Boromir is already a ‘Knight’, & both Merry & Pippin will become ‘Knights’ in the course of their journeys.

Is this another example of Galadriel’s ability to see into the future?

[Tuor of Gondolin]

A brief additional off topic observation on Tolkien and Ireland:
It's curious how he seemed, whle liking Ireland as a country and its people,
not to be especially taken with its language or mythology. Two excerpts from "Letters":

I do know Celtic things (many in their original languages Irish and Welsh), and feel for them a certain distaste: largely for their fundamental unreason. They have bright colour, but are like a broken stained glass window reassembled without design.

#19

(I) find both Gaelic and the air of Ireland wholly alien- though the latter (not the language) is attractive.

# 165.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Thanks for that information, davem! That does put the presents which are underrated and least discussed in another light!