The RPlague

[Meoshi]

Recently I started a guided RPG in the Shire, and reviewing the various characters submitted, I noticed the remarkable cliches: About half of the people were missing parents, and three submitted virtually identical sword-wielding warrior maidens.

Then there's the problem with the elves. They often seem to have un-Tolkienish names, like "Rie" or "Moonflower". There are also a remarkable amount of Elvish characters who are sword-wielding warrior maidens.(Fortunately, I forbade Elves from my RPG, or it'd be swarmed with them).

Our Middle-Earth RPG settings, are, frankly, sounding less and less Middle-Earthly.

In all of the works of Tolkien, there were:

2 orphaned characters

1 sword-wielding warrior maiden(who was not an elf)

no characters with unknown pasts

and a grand total of zero characters with amnesia.

And yet these cliches are commonplace, although we are spared the worst ones thanks to the ban on assassins and half-elves.

What's gone wrong? Is this just a Shire thing? Does it get better in the other areas?

[ April 28, 2003: Message edited by: Meoshi ]

[Orual]

Just to clarify: if that was my Rie that was mentioned, she is not an elf. She's a human. It's also her nickname; her full name is Talmérië (no, it's not real Elvish, but it sounded a fair approximation). "Moonflower" I take no credit for, however.

As a writer, I find the "missing parents" cliché sometimes necessary for purposes of characterization. In "Search for the Book" I play a young man named Arethin, whose father is dead. This is to lay the foundation for his devotion and protectiveness towards his mother and younger brother, and to provide conflict when it came time to leave Dale. For sure people can overuse it for the angst factor, just as they can overdo sword-wielding warrior maidens, but none of these clichés in and of themselves are bad. A good writer can pull any of them off (though it would take a miracle to write a good orphaned, sword-wiedling warrior maiden with an unknown past and amnesia). Certainly the amnesia thing is way too easy to overplay, especially when it comes to young maidens who cannot remember a thing and thus fall immediately into the arms of the first roguishly handsome hero (or villain!) who happens their way.

Our Middle-Earth RPG settings, are, frankly, sounding less and less Middle-Earthly.

I'm not really sure what you mean by that. There are a lot of areas that Tolkien left open, as is inevitable in a world as big as Middle-earth. He (probably unknowingly) created a huge opportunity for games like we are so fortunate to have here at the Downs, and so all of the RPG's cannot be expected to be the same. Sure, some of the characters are a little clichéd or uncanon. But for the most part, I find my fellow players and the games fairly faithful to the spirit of Tolkien.

~*~Orual~*~

[GaladrieloftheOlden]

I agree with you totally that there are some sorts of cliches and they are quite annoying, but you have to understand, sometimes it just happens that way. eg: in Reclaiming the City, of my three characters there, one is a shieldmaiden. However, she was the first character I ever submitted, so I hope you all could forgive me [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]
I think that that is exactly what often happens. Somebody looks briefly over a few RPGs, sees that there are plenty shieldmaidens, elvish or not, and decides to make their own. Which leads to more of them... I think that if there's one per every 3 or so RPGs it's fine, but not like it is now. I think the people in charge of this should make some sort of rule that only your every 3rd character can be a shieldmaiden or something like that...

[Beruthiel]

I think people like to play characters such as elf maidens with uknown pasts and amazing sword skills because it makes them more interesting, though now that almost ever other character is like that it is getting a little pathetic. I'm being a bit of hypocrite here as I had an elf maiden with a forgotten past at the Green Dragon. I guess its a lot easier for those RPers who aren't very good writers or are new to RP to come up with that sort of character because they've seen so many examples of it in the RPGs.

Maybe its because these type of characters are so rare in LOTR that people want to explore them more. Plus, since there aren't many of them in the books they can be interpretted and written in anyway they want.

[ April 28, 2003: Message edited by: Beruthiel ]

[The X Phial]

There is also a glut of far overskilled people.

"'So and so' is an outstanding warrior, smarter than anyone else, sneaky, clever, a healer, and gorgeous."

Do people not understand that it's a lot more fun and interesting to interact with people and characters that have flaws and insecurities? I think this is why so many characters have dark and mysterious pasts, to lend them some kind of conflict, because they are perfect and BORING. Actually, I find them boring anyway. I would much rather see a well developed character with parents, a mundane past, and flaws. Sure, they should have a skill, like in real life we have skills that make us unique. There is no need to make a character some perfect uber person though...people (and elves *gasp* have flaws). It makes a character easier to interact with.

For a previous thread on this topic see: You too can play an underpowered character.

[ April 28, 2003: Message edited by: The X Phial ]

[Durelin]

Hmmmm...I have been wondering why so many people want to be warriors maidens. I have never been a girl in a RPG because of it, and I am female. I find it simpler to do men in fantasy, which is traditional based on a medieval/renaissance/after the fall of the Roman Empire time period. Well, I have played evil women...there are fewer evil women in RPGs, mostly people wish their characters to be heroines. I just want to know...why?

[Aylwen Dreamsong]

Several people write their characters so that it will not be depicted as a Mary-Sue, ie, an "absolutely beautiful maiden who can defend herself from evil with her perfect swords skills and has a troubled past but is absolutely upbeat because of it" etc. In trying to do so, they create even more Mary-Sue-ish characters in that everyone is making thier RP characters that way.

That is exactly why I have only played an elf once, and the only weapon she could hold without killing herself was a dagger. She was a writer thank you very much! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] I currently am only playing one female character that can wield a sword, and I think her character traits weigh out the weapon. All my other characters I have tried to make unique...a writer, a scribe, a smith, a slave, an assassin that uses daggers and is currently without one [img]smilies/redface.gif[/img], a stablehand.

I guess I kind of wish people would put more effort into their characters, and try to make them unique and not your average Jo(sephina? [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]). That makes the game funner to play. As long as characters have quirks, you've got a lot to work with.

Playing guys is always...erm...fun too! Not that I know how a guy would act, but it's still kind of cool to play something that 'broadens your horizons!' Like Dorlas and Rolan! (Or as Jem/Orual knows him, 'Him'!)

I also am a firm believer that it does get better in Rohan (with the exception of one or two characters/games [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]) and especially Gondor.

Aylwen

P.S. Durelin, I liked being an evil character (Jerika!) and right now am the only evil character in Betrayal of Trust. I like playing evil characters! Fun fun fun!

[ April 28, 2003: Message edited by: Aylwen Dreamsong ]

[ April 28, 2003: Message edited by: Aylwen Dreamsong ]

[The X Phial]

If you want my opinion, Durelin, it's because people are afraid to explore characters not like themselves. A good many RPers are young and female, they want to play young strong women because that's what they want to be, not because it's interesting or important to the story. In ME there would have been very few female warriors. Women would have been encouraged to excel at artistic pursuits like crafts or bardic arts and, more rarely, a skill like healing or scholarship. The thing that made Eowyn unique was her courage and skill with a blade. If we glut the world with sheildmaidens then Eowyn is just a particulary disobediant one, not very unique at all. I encourage more women to explore the idea of playing male characters. It is a chance for personal growth, and you'd be surprised at how much fun it can be.

[Durelin]

It is fun! I think it's fun no matter who you play, as long as they have a good personality, which might be a particularly mean or evil one.

RPG= Roleplaying game

Okay. You play a role in a game. So, you act like you are someone else. So, try being someone totally different from yourself! Like me with Raken. I mean, he's a guy, he's totally pure evil, he's bloodthirsty (okay, maybe a little similar), and he's crazy (a little more similar, but you get my point.)

I'm not saying that all you female warriors out there are stupid. I'd like to play one sometime too, but, you gotta play something different.

[DayVampyre]

**Saunters down the thread**


I think the cliches may just be because there are new people joining into LOTR RPG's that haven't done it before. I mean, when I just started RPing, not here mind you, I remember wanting to be the Mary-Sue with lineage to, oh I don't know, Aragorn or something of the sort.

I have, always relished in playing the bad girl[and occasional boy]

More recently, however, I seem to be in a bit of lower class character stage, I don't think I too Mary-Sue-ish anymore. I think its probably a one RPG only phase, just to test out the RPGing waters.

[GaladrieloftheOlden]

I guess its a lot easier for those RPers who aren't very good writers or are new to RP to come up with that sort of character because they've seen so many examples of it in the RPGs.

Well, I wouldn't say people who aren't very good writers, just newer ones or those who enjoy that type of thing. Of coursee, not all of them are Shakespeare-ic writers, but neither are the rest of us. Or at least most of us, like me [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Several people write their characters so that it will not be depicted as a Mary-Sue, ie, an "absolutely beautiful maiden who can defend herself from evil with her perfect swords skills and has a troubled past but is absolutely upbeat because of it" etc. In trying to do so, they create even more Mary-Sue-ish characters in that everyone is making thier RP characters that way.

Yes, I've tried that method once... *sigh*

~Menelien

[Arvedui III]

and a grand total of zero characters with amnesia

Thanks Meoshi, I know who that's directed at. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Perhaps there is just something universal about these types of characters, and I believe, if they are played well, they work. However yes, it is annoying that most people seem to want to play characters of that nature, and yes, I agree that sometimes it isn't very heathy for our good role-playing forums. They're probably the easiest to play as well, as they are problems are so easily defined, so people without much experience like them. The thing is, played well they can have tons of depth and make very good characters. So, to stop rambling, I'll say this: All the types of character above are great, just if you have three of them in game it becomes a chiche, but plague? Nah. Remember, if I'm not mistaken roleplaying is about taking a setting and making it your own, so if things go a little off Tolkien it's probably ok. New stories are better then newer versions of the same one. And yah, I think things get more original in Rohan if the Shire's repeated storylines displease you. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Arvedui III

[Carlas]

I agree with DayVampyre!

The Shire is for people who are new to the world of RPGs. Peoples first charcters are not usually too well developped [though not everyones] and it may take time to get used to the style of writing and to become more inventive.

[img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]

[GaladrieloftheOlden]

Also-

A good many RPers are young and female, they want to play young strong women because that's what they want to be, not because it's interesting or important to the story.

Well, I don't think that's quite true. I'm "young and female", but I have found that playing other characters in much more fun for me. I'm not saying that I don't have a lot of fun writing posts for Evren, my shieldmaiden, because I do, I just think that it's more of a challenge to do something different, and much more rewarding when you're done.

~Menelien

[Sophia the Thunder Mistress]

As a (female 20-ish) RPer who hasn't actually completed a game yet, I think I can speak for a few of those of us who choose to play cliched characters in the Shire. I also brought a sword wielding woman with a tragic past to the Green Dragon.

The X Phial said:

it's because people are afraid to explore characters not like themselves. A good many RPers are young and female, they want to play young strong women because that's what they want to be, not because it's interesting or important to the story.

In my case this was partially true, I did want to play a character with a mindset basically similar to my own. It's a lot easier to learn to think in character if you start with being someone who thinks like you. But the tragic shieldmaidens come not so much from wanting to create perfect characters, but simply because there's precious few other ways to get a young woman to the Green Dragon (or any other part of ME other than her home town) in the first place.

And even though there are shieldmaidens abounding in the Shire games, you rarely see the same Downer play one twice in a row. I'm currently playing in four Shire games, and while two of my characters are female, neither of them is your typical Eowyn-style heroine and niether of them are elves. One is an evil woman (hopefully to develop into someone Durelin would enjoy reading about [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]) and the other is a housewife and mother of three.

Actually, my evil woman is in Meoshi's game, which I think is going well, at least from the evil side.

And the whole point of this shpiel was to point out that I think the shieldmaiden phase is, as Galadriel pointed out, part of learning to RP. Maybe you'd see less of it in Rohan? I'd look there if you're wanting to escape newbie-syndrome.

Sophia

(note to concerned parties, when I first began this reply, the last post was Day Vampyres. So many others were replying at the same time that some things got said repeatedly.)

[ April 28, 2003: Message edited by: Sophia the Thunder Mistress ]

[The X Phial]

I didn't mean to imply that all young and female RPers would fall into that stereotype, only that those who exclusively play Shieldmaidens are more likely to be young and female and play them for the reasons I stated. I'm glad not everyone is like that, believe me.

[Diamond18]

There does come a point, I would imagine, when the quest for new and original character types/backgrounds starts to conflict with Tolkien canon. I don't really see all that much room for groundbreaking new ideas in a format that is contained in a set world, even one so large and mysterious as Tolkien's.

I have enjoyed the one RPG I was in immensely, and was trying to find the time to explore the rest of the RPG forums. Unfortunately, for myself, I have a hard time conforming my mindset to Tolkien canon, so that process hasn't been going smashingly, so far. After all, my only characters have been a half-elf who spouts the worst poetry in the galaxy and an orphaned half-hobbit (granted, it was a parody) but you can see my mind tends to twist Tolkien with evil glee. When I try to think up a character to sashay into the White Horse, I either lapse into thinking about the characters from the novel I'm writing, or I speculate on what the child of a Dwarf and a Hobbit would be like. [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]

I have a point, don't worry. [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img] I consider myself a "good" writer, as I've been doing it since before I could even spell well enough to write my ideas down. But, when faced with an RPG, I have a rather hard time thinking up a character who is both non-stereotypical and true to Tolkien. This from a person who has spent over a decade crafting stories and characters as her main pursuit in life. I don't even have lack of skill or practice as an excuse, and it's still hard.

So I'm saying you ought to have a little patience with new, young people who want to get involved because they see other people having fun. Naturally, they're going to want to have the same kind of fun, so they'll copy what they see. It's not that easy to whip up a stupendously interesting and unique character, especially when you're dealing with the restraints of someone else's world.

Of course, I agree about the boringness of perfect, uber-skilled warriors whose only fault is a shady past and a moody 'tude. Most of the characters I create in my original works are the most pathetic screw-ups you'll meet. But then again, Aragorn was annoyingly perfect, with a mysterious past and orphaned to boot, and no one's jumping down Tolkien's back about it. So have a little patience with the menagerie of differently skilled writers you're bound to meet.

~ Diamond

[Salix]

I'll admit, I have never been in an RPG, but I want to join one sometime, except I'm a bit forgetful. Anyhoo, if I did join an RPG, I wouldn't want to be a shield-maiden or missing parents. Even though I have absolutely no knowledge in the areas, I have been trying my hand at writing some characters, and not one of them is a shield-maiden or missing parents, or perfect at using every weapon that comes to mind, or is perfect looking. I like the flaws in people personally, because they make a character interesting. Sure you can have a person who lost their parents at age twelve, but isn't someone who hates their parents with a passion more interesting? I also would like to play evil people because they can do things that many other people can't and get away with it. Well, sort of. Anyway, since I'm new to the RPG's, I think it would be best to start out as a girl.

Anyway, thanks for listening to the rants of an uneducated-about-RPG's person.

[Child of the 7th Age]

Meoshi,

When I first saw this question, I went running and shrieking in the other direction. It wasn't a pretty sight!

I think this is because, as a moderator in the Shire, and as someone who enjoys writing, I feel your question has no easy answer. Let me raise a few points that weren't addressed before.

First, I do not think this issue is limited to the Shire, or, for that matter, to RPGs alone. The same holds true in much fanfiction. However, the problem is probably more widespread in the Shire than in Rohan because the gamers tend to be less experienced. (Although even that is an oversimplifcation, since we have some who are unusually skilled.) As others have observed, a girl or young woman writing in her first story naturally feels more comfortable playing female roles, just as a young man prefers male roles.

As a mod in the Shire, I feel a particular obligation to encourage quality in writing but, at the same time, to permit the free expression of ideas and to craft an environment where beginning writers feel comfortable. Piosenniel and I have repeatedly explored the whole question of what is true to Tolkien and what is not, and then tried to apply what we’ve learned to help founders develop stories.

Like you, we've thought some folk were too predictable in the characters or games they created. We increasingly found ourselves saying “No” to a whole list of things, and compiling formal guidelines to that effect.

Shire guidelines now stipulate many devices and attributes that are strictly "forbidden" in games unless they are an integral part of a storyline or something inherent to a specific character such as an istari's magic staff. Among the list of general "no-nos" are these: half-Elven, half-hobbit or half-anything characters; dwarves (or anyone) bearing Mithril; the use of magic; any super-human skills with weapons. Yes, Tolkien does give Elves some attributes and devices which Men and Hobbits term "magic," although these were regarded differently by the Elves. But the Shire guidelines still forbid such things because we've found they can be overused to the point where the story becomes predictable and lazy.

At the same time, other issues have come up that we've addressed only obliquely. This includes themes such as you identify: orphaned characters, folks with shady pasts, overly romanticized portrayals of Elves, and various gender questions. There are no blanket rules about any of these. However, any game founder is free to stipulate in his or her proposal the guidelines that are to be used in a particular RPG. For example, founders can and have required that all characters be male.

However, having said this, I'll add that things aren't always as simple as they appear. You state that the device of the "orphaned child" was only used twice by JRRT. Actually, there is a thread in the Books forum started by Birdland that explored this question some time ago. Posters found example after example of characters in Tolkien who had lost one or both parents (usually the mother), frequently through violent means. In fact, this is a common motif not just in Tolkien, but in a great many legends and faery stories. So is the orphaned character of the RPG a "cliche" or is he rather an example of an archetypical figure whose roots go very deep indeed?

Finally, I'm going to take off my mod hat and talk as an individual writer. Meoshi, you confine the brunt of your criticism to those posters playing Shield-maidens or certain strange Elvish types. Well, I've got a gripe that's even bigger than that! I feel there are too many games on the Downs where the focus is too strictly on what I term "hack and whack". This criticism includes both male and female characters.

Tolkien's Middle-earth, although a dangerous world, was a place where there was a great deal more going on than folk taking hacks at each other with weapons. I don't think we do enough to explore those other aspects: character development, outwitting your opponent through brains and deception rather than sheer might, exploring historical trends like migrations, etc.

I think the Downs' RPGs have come a long way from where we started. I see people whose writing has dramatically improved, and a variety of stories within the Shire and Rohan. But you're right. We still have a ways to go, both individually and as a site.

Cami Goodchild, Shire Moderator

[ April 29, 2003: Message edited by: Child of the 7th Age ]

[ElentariGreenleaf]

Sorry if this has already been said, but the Shire is designed for new RPG playiers, to help them improve their writing skills. Pio, Child and Aman are ding a great job of getting characters truer to Tolkien's work. Yes, there are a lot of cliches. Regarding the non'elvish elf names, well, I for one don't know any elvish names which are original. My cahracter, Elentari, has to have the most unorignal name because I wanted a true Elvish one. Let the new RPers experiment!

Oh, and the sword weilding maidens.... I tried playing a maidservant..... they get ignored. Characters with no fighting skills tend to get left out of the actions. The only exception is Hobbit RPGs.

[Ransom]

What's gone wrong? Is this just a Shire thing? Does it get better in the other areas?

I would venture to say that if you pulled a person off the street, plopped him in front of a computer, and told him to create and write a character, he or she would create a cookie cutter character. People like to copy each other, and RPing is no exception. The problem that you seem to refer to is that it doesn’t seem that people move beyond this initial step. It takes time to develop good writing skills and maturity. People don't learn in leaps--they usually learn in baby steps.

Oh, and the sword weilding maidens.... I tried playing a maidservant..... they get ignored. Characters with no fighting skills tend to get left out of the actions.

My female character (Elenna) in the Betrayal of Trust RPG is an herbalist with physical problems that basically preclude most combat related activities. I’d have to say she’s my favorite character to write because she has no fighting skills. How many times do you get to perform battlefield surgery anyways? [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[ April 29, 2003: Message edited by: Ransom ]

[ April 29, 2003: Message edited by: Ransom ]

[ April 29, 2003: Message edited by: Ransom ]

[Rimbaud]

My interest is also piqued by the inability of more than one or two writers here to create a believable female character.

This is a nasty side-effect of a male-dominated media thinking that a 'strong female character' must necessarily show some of the worse male traits.

The other side of the coin is less well explored; the male characters that ring perhaps more true than our myriad shieldmaidens (and in the hack 'n' slash routine so ably described above by the estimable COT7A, they do) are all flawed, albeit seemingly quite unintentionally. Their comments are frequently misogynist, they have no recourse but to violence, and as for emotional depth, its scarcity in most stories here borders on deliberation.

The avoidance of violence and suffering is a stronger and nobler aim than the indiscriminate use of force. Might does not make right. When you have a conflict between two characters, try and resolve it, work through the issues. Or, leave those issues festering in their minds, while the night turns black around them, which is invariably easier and more enjoyable. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[ April 29, 2003: Message edited by: Rimbaud ]

[dragoneyes]

I'm embarassed to say that my first ever RPG character was a young half-Elven lady who could use the bow and the knife well and whose parents had died a long time ago. It looks terrible now, but it seemed fine when I first wrote her, just the same as it probably seems to the new RPers now. It is a good was of starting though, the character is easy and enjoyable to play and by looking at the other characters, you may see some aspects you might want to try next time you make a character. For example, my next character was a particularly adventurous woman who was pretty useless at everything except riding and after that I moved onto far more believable male characters.

It may only take one Mary-Sue character until the writer moves onto something else, I think they should be allowed to have this leeway otherwise there would only be half the new RPers.

About half of the people were missing parents

This perhaps would not be such an odd thing in Middle Earth. They would not have had the medicines or the safety precautions we do now so it is quite likely that they would have lost one or both of their parents whether to illness or to an accident with farming equipment or something else along those lines. You have only to add to that the amount of wild creatures and barren land and it would make each long journey a veritable health risk.

[Lyra Greenleaf]

I have played a grand total of 8 characters: Of which 4 are male, 4 female. One Elf, one Hobbit, one Huorn. One is evil, the Huorn is kind of evilish, and one was a Grandfather! The only female warrior happens to be evil.

Now, I wouldn't say I'm anything special around here- I think that once a person has done a few RPGs they are bound to diversify. Every one of my characters could probably be said to be a stereotype: Jolly female Hobbit, fierce man of Gondor, evil character with a well concealed heart, young good looking male Elf- etc. In addition to this I'm one of the young and female RPGers someone mentioned. And I have to say I don't think there's anything wrong with it! I don't think shieldmaidens have spoiled one RPG that I've been in or read, in fact if they are written well why shouldn't they be OK? It would be good if people experimented more, but if the BDs were just for experienced, Tolkien perfect, prize winning writers it would lose a lot of what is good about it.

And I have to add that I think it's unfair to make people feel bad about their shieldmaiden characters- no-one forced them to be accepted! [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img] Maybe game owners should put their feet down and convince RPGers to try something different. All the shieldmaidens could make a parade to the Green Dragon!

[ April 29, 2003: Message edited by: Lyra Greenleaf ]

[ElentariGreenleaf]

I agree that game owners, like myself, should help people improve their characters. As it happens, I had all female elves apply for my RPG until someone offered to change. But to be quite honest, if I was to go to them "Could you make your character a little less skilled in fighting and have a normal history and maybe, you know, just let them lose a few fights" would kinda make me sound both weird and a bad owner. But with a dragon kidnapping people, the characters need to be able to fight, and, as someone said, people are more comfortable palying a character of the same gender, as they relate more easily to them. The only male charater I've played wasn't here, and was Quickbeam in Elves meet Ents. ^_^

[Sophia the Thunder Mistress]

Just a small technical point.

Meoshi said that in all the works of Tolkien there was:

1 sword-wielding warrior maiden(who was not an elf)

Actually, there were at least two. Eowyn, the obvious one, and Haleth of the Haladin. There may be more I'm not thinking of.

Sophia

Edit: this is not to say that there were such an abundance as one finds on an average day in the Green Dragon. Just thought the other fighting-lady should be recognized as well.

[ April 29, 2003: Message edited by: Sophia the Thunder Mistress ]

[piosenniel]

Elentari

I agree that game owners, like myself, should help people improve their characters. As it happens, I had all female elves apply for my RPG until someone offered to change. But to be quite honest, if I was to go to them "Could you make your character a little less skilled in fighting and have a normal history and maybe, you know, just let them lose a few fights" would kinda make me sound both weird and a bad owner

We hope in the Shire, that Game Owners can feel free enough to direct the types of characters they want for their games.

However, if an Owner feels that he or she cannot do this, then that is the time to call on the moderator to step in, preferably by PM, in which you will have discussed the problem you are having. We will then address the problem with the gamer or gamers and nudge them softly or firmly as need be.

It's a service available at all times to game owners and gamers alike - please feel free to use it.

[Mithadan]

First of all, I'd like to caution everyone against singling out particular members whose characters you might not be fond of. Whether you like their characters or not, their creators have likely put some time and thought into their crafting.

If you study writing, you will learn that there are two kinds of conflicts which a character can encounter; external and internal. An example of an external conflict is "I have to destroy the Ring." An internal conflict would be "I am not strong enough or smart enough to destroy the ring."

The "suffering character" who has lost parents/friends/siblings comes with a ready made internal conflict as well as an external conflict if he or she seeks revenge. This character is easier to write and has something to talk and emote about. That is why this device is used so often in our Inns and RPGs.

It also happens to be Middle Earth authentic. As Child commented, Middle earth was a violent and difficult place where the loss of loved ones is not unusual. Just read the Silmarillion. Is this device overused? Perhaps. Are there more subtle or creative devices which could be used? Yes. But that does not make "suffering character syndrome" a bad thing.

As for the Shield-Maiden issue, there appear to be at least 2 women for every man on this site interested in RPGs. It is simply not reasonable to ask all these women to play stay at home housewives.

Are there non-shield-maiden characters that could be played? Yes. Child's role in the Lonely Star series (Elvenhome and The Shire) exemplifies such a character. But such a character requires a degree of writing ability and confidence. A new RPer can't be expected to write such a character effectively, first time out. Besides, I'll guess that shield-maidens are more fun for some people. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

So far as Mary-Sues are concerned, avoiding this style of character comes with experience. Everyone deserves to learn.

[Meoshi]

Thanks for your input on this. It's nice to hear that this isn't an ignored problem.

After I'm done with my current RPGs, I'll probably have my character depart from the Green Dragon, take a long break, and go into Rohan when I come back.

[ElentariGreenleaf]

I never post in the green dragon, as my character is in an RPG. I love it there..... [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img] I guess Sofiya could go back ^_^ She had friends there.

[GaladrieloftheOlden]

Actually, there were at least two. Eowyn, the obvious one, and Haleth of the Haladin. There may be more I'm not thinking of.

Yavanna, perhaps?

As for the Shield-Maiden issue, there appear to be at least 2 women for every man on this site interested in RPGs. It is simply not reasonable to ask all these women to play stay at home housewives.

But we can play men, too, not just shieldmaidens... can't we? [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[Lyra Greenleaf]

I was to go to them "Could you make your character a little less skilled in fighting and have a normal history and maybe, you know, just let them lose a few fights" would kinda make me sound both weird and a bad owner

I don't think anyone would mind, really. In Search for the Lost Messenger Helkahothion made me change my character a couple of times to convince him he was good enough to be part of the rescue party, and I didn't mind. It ended up being a fantastic game!

[mark12_30]

Wait.

In all of the works of Tolkien, there were:

2 orphaned characters

Frodo being a rather prominent one?
Aragorn, another prominent one?
Where was Sam's mom?
Boromir & Faramir's mom died early; Celebrian departed over sea;
and I'm forgetting much of the Sil, but I think there were some broken wanderers there too...

1 sword-wielding warrior maiden(who was not an elf)

no characters with unknown pasts

Ah... Gandalf? Neniel?

and a grand total of zero characters with amnesia.

Neniel, Turin's sister and wife, again?

And how about Thorin's father when Gandalf found him in the Necromancer's prison?

And how about partial amnesia in Gandalf himself-- as he "awoke" after his battle with the Balrog?

Anyway, it's been a while since I read Sil, and my brain is a sieve on such things, but I don't think amnesia was that rare, nor being orphaned or at least losing a parent.

[GaladrieloftheOlden]

Frodo being a rather prominent one?
Aragorn, another prominent one?
Where was Sam's mom?
Boromir & Faramir's mom died early; Celebrian departed over sea;
and I'm forgetting much of the Sil, but I think there were some broken wanderers there too...

I think whoever said that meant full orphans. Well, B & F were full cause their dad bruned at the stake and mom died early... Frodo also was full... but I think think those were the only ones of the ones you metnioned. Not sure, though [img]smilies/confused.gif[/img]

~Menelien

[dragoneyes]

Aragorn was a full orphan, and Arwen virtually was once Elrond departed. But then again, most people become orphans at some point in their lives.

[ April 30, 2003: Message edited by: dragoneyes ]

[mark12_30]

Let's limit "orphan" to mean, losing both parents before one comes of age. Still, that includes Aragorn and Frodo-- major players.

[Lalaith]

Other orphans - Huor, and Elwing...
oh and it wasn't just Haleth but many of the Haladin women who fought. And as for elven shieldmaidens, they're not entirely out of the question:

Indeed in dire straits or desperate defence, the _nissi_ fought valiantly, and there was less difference in strength and speed between elven-men and elven-women that had not borne child than is seen among mortals

Having said that, I don't know anything about RPG so I'll bow out now.

[Annunfuiniel]

Ouch, generalizations! [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]
Well, I have yet not finished a single Rpg but I'm currently playing in two games, and hope to make that three soon. And I have/have had total of five characters of which one was female; Mayla the healer and herbalist made a brief visit to the Green Dragon. I really didn't know what I was doing with her so she just left and no-one has heard of her since. But she didn't own any weapons and I believe all her close relatives were still alive...

The characters I'm playing at the moment (or hope to play) are:

*An aging guard of Gondor though admittedly good with his sword also into story-telling and singing old lays. He's over 50 years old so naturally his parents are dead (oops, his father was killed in the War of the Ring before he was born, so not quite a natural death).

*Evil (and at the moment drunken) orc, one of the surviving orcs of Isengard. But he's a pure orc not any crooked half-orc! Nothing really to add to that.

*Gráin and Vráin, dwarf brothers from the Grey Mountains hunting for a dragon. Both wielding a battle axe but so far they have used only their words as their swords. Both parents still alive and doing fine.

But maybe I should play a shield-maiden one day, just for the heck of it? [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]
Just one more thing to say: the language problems may cause some characters to turn into clichés. It's difficult to be original if you have to check every other word from the dictionary and know only a dozen or so proverbs... Putting your thoughts down to writing is difficult enough in your native tongue! Ok, that was a bit overstated but you get the picture. I hope.

[Legolas]

I think people like to play characters such as elf maidens with uknown pasts and amazing sword skills because it makes them more interesting,

But it doesn't. It makes them 'mysterious' to the writer, perhaps (and that might be fun for the writer), and select preteens, but those characters don't serve much purpose in literature, and do not find proper usage often. They're annoying to readers and reduce story depth.

Legolas was great with a bow and arrow. Is that what helped him add most to the story? Not hardly. Aragorn was a really tough guy. Is that what helped him add most to the story? No.

And how about partial amnesia in Gandalf himself-- as he "awoke" after his battle with the Balrog?

Such a special case is hardly likely to repeat.

[ May 01, 2003: Message edited by: Legolas ]

[Hirilaelin]

I will almost always play a female character in RPGs, because I find female characters to be much easier to write. (This probably has something to do with the fact that I'm a girl, but... However, there is a glut of female characters, making it hard to play a unique character.)

But I simply hate half-elven, orphaned shield-maidens. *gags* Not only because of the extreme immprobability of these characters ever living in ME, and the cliche, but because I actually find them hard to write, because of their jumbled pasts.