Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page |
01-01-2004, 08:19 PM | #1 |
Guest
Posts: n/a
|
Races of men and real world counterparts?
Hi,
What would the real world counterparts of all the races of men in Middle Earth be? And I'm most curious about the Southrons and Easterlings in this matter... Thanks. |
01-01-2004, 11:51 PM | #2 |
Deathless Sun
|
Since Tolkien originally intended the saga of Lord of the Rings to be a mythology or legendarium for England, the Southrons and Easterlings were roughly (emphasis on roughly) based on Africans and Asians (Middle-eastern, etc.) respectively.
__________________
But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark. |
01-02-2004, 10:11 PM | #3 |
Wight
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Bree
Posts: 210
|
Or the Spanish and the French. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]
-Lily
__________________
"But nay: the praise of the praiseworthy is above all rewards." - Faramir |
01-03-2004, 09:15 AM | #4 |
Wight
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Somewhere, wandering in middle earth...
Posts: 137
|
Well then what are the Dunedain?
__________________
Turin Turambar, Master of Fate, by Fate Mastered. No, im not turin. Or tuor. Or anyone. I am not! |
01-03-2004, 12:29 PM | #5 |
Deathless Sun
|
The Dunedain are most likely the Men of England. But then again, Numenor could be compared to Ireland (even though Ireland didn't sink, in a geographic sense the comparison can be made), so that would make the Dunedain Irish.
__________________
But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark. |
01-03-2004, 04:22 PM | #6 |
Haunting Spirit
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Dol Amroth
Posts: 94
|
If this was true, where would the Elves have come from? Would it be Iceland. Maybe that is why so many Elves have fair hair.
__________________
I go to my fathers. And even in their mighty company I shall not now be ashamed. I felled the black serpent. A grim morn, and a glad day, and a golden sunset! |
01-03-2004, 07:02 PM | #7 |
Wight
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Australia
Posts: 150
|
Numenor sank, remember? :-) So it's not Ireland. In fact, it's meant to be Atlantis - Tolkien said so. So the Dunedain are Atlantean by descent. As for fair-haired Elves, I think it's only Galadriel's bunch, her family's House tended to fair hair, but as far as I know - and correct me if I'm wrong here - they mostly are dark and grey-eyed, eg Elrond and his daughter. They follow a different route from Men anyway - "awakened" somewhere on ME before the sun and moon were created, I forget where, then invited to the Undying Lands - and we all know, I assume, what happened after that - Feanor sulking over the Silmarils, leading a bunch of rebels off back to ME, etc.
|
01-04-2004, 10:10 AM | #8 | ||
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 334
|
When I was reading a book on Mythology I saw that, according to myth, there was once an island called Lyonnesse that was somewhere off the coast of Cornwall.
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
'What news from the South, O sighing wind, do you bring to me at eve? Where now is Boromir the Fair? He tarries and I grieve.' |
||
01-04-2004, 12:58 PM | #9 |
Wight
|
That ancient Arturian land sounds a lot like Numenor. The entire idea that this island, Lyonnesse, was once the home of the fragments of a forgottten people is quite similar to the idea of the house of Elros settling here and the rest of the men of Middle Earth forgetting about their existance.
I'm not quite sure if Lyonnesse and Atlantis are the same location though. From what I can remember from my studies, the ancient city of Antlantis was supposed to have sunk into the sea during the ancient times, hundreds of years before the time of Arthur. The statement must be made, however, that the similarites between Antlantis, Lyonnesse, and Numenor are very striking, and that there is possibly a connection between the three.
__________________
"Will somebody find my pants?" - "What do you do with a drunkin sailor?" - "You have a giant mole!!!!" - "Tom!! Get out of the Girls's dressing room!" "But she asked me to help find her pants!!" - - - opening night chaos |
01-04-2004, 02:50 PM | #10 |
Wight
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: the Realm of Nargothrond beyond Narog
Posts: 163
|
Merlin still around in the time of the last battle of Camlann? Duneadain and Easterlings and Southrons don't come in in the early mythology when it was written for England. So they couldn't be European or anything. Besides Tolkien doesn't like allegory, so he wouldn't envisage Easterlings as representing an entire race.
__________________
Then Felagund upon the head of Arothir set it: "Nephew mine, till I return this crown is thine." |
01-04-2004, 09:08 PM | #11 |
Deathless Sun
|
Merlin was imprisoned in a cave (or a tree, depending on which legend you look at) by the enchantress Nimue (also called Vivian, Viviane, and a bunch of other names), and there he waits until Arthur needs him again (which, presumably, will be at the Battle of Camlann).
True, Tolkien didn't like allegory, but these are hypothetical comparisons. We're just imagining which races in the real world would compare to certain races in Middle-earth.
__________________
But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark. |
01-04-2004, 09:46 PM | #12 | |
Delver in the Deep
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Aotearoa
Posts: 960
|
Quote:
Similarly, the appearance of the Easterlings was, I thought, of rough, hairy blokes possibly like the Dunlendings. Although that might just be the impression I got. At any rate, if they were supposed to represent an Asiatic force like the Mongols, surely they would have had more cavalry and archers, rather than chariots and wains (whatever those are). It seems to me that Tolkien took several ideas from existing cultures and used them to create the races of Middle-Earth, often relying more on his imagination than anything else. For one, I don't think there is a race in our world that has historically been taller than everybody else, as the Dúnedain were. The Dúnedain were a race of intelligent, fair and powerful men that had no parallel in our own world, especially since they adopted some of the characteristics of the Eldar.
__________________
But Gwindor answered: 'The doom lies in yourself, not in your name'. |
|
01-07-2004, 08:25 PM | #13 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Sharkey's End
Posts: 267
|
I am pretty sure that the Variags were meant to represent Africans.
The half-orcs in Sauraman's army were described as being squint-eyed and having sallow skin. These are possibly representing North Asians. The northmen such as those in Rohan, have blond hair and probably resemble Scandinavians.
__________________
His sword was long his lance was keen His shining helm afar was seen The countless stars of heavens field Were mirrored in his silver shield |
01-07-2004, 08:40 PM | #14 |
Delver in the Deep
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Aotearoa
Posts: 960
|
The "half-orcs in Sauraman's army" were bred or created by Saruman in Isengard. My ethnopaleontology might not be up to scratch, but I don't believe that Asiatic people came from Isengard! Or perhaps I'm just choosing not to believe that JRRT was somehow biased against the cultures of the east. Being told you resemble a half Orc would hardly be received very well, and I hope that no Barrow Downers are offended by the comments above, or those in the books.
You have a pretty good point about the Rohirrim, though. I wonder what the Bardings of the north looked like, and whether they had a similar culture? But after saying that, I think that the culture of Rohan also had Celtic and Germanic roots. Anyone know a bit more about that?
__________________
But Gwindor answered: 'The doom lies in yourself, not in your name'. |
|
|