Breaking of the World

[Celebdil]

Hi all,

My question relates to this passage regarding Aragorn's death:

Then a great beauty was revealed in him, so that all who after came there looked on him in wonder; for they saw that the grace of his youth, and the valour of his manhood, and the wisdom and majesty of his age were blended together. And long there he lay, an image of the splendour of the Kings of Men in glory undimmed before the breaking of the world.

Does anyone know what is meant by "the breaking of the world". My understanding is that when the "unfaithful" Numenorians sailed to the Undying lands, Eru "broke" the world in two, with one piece being Valinor and the other piece containing M-E. But that quote seems to indicate a second breaking will occur. Does Tolkien write anything about this second breaking? When will it occur and why?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

I actually think the meaning of this part is "he looked like the Kings of Men looked before the breaking of the world", so it actually is referring to Númenor. However, I think there still might be more to say about it, but I don't feel competent enough to speculate wider about any other breakings. So I'll wait if anyone else contributes to this thread. I just wanted to add my little bit of knowledge when I could.

[littlemanpoet]

Well, it's obvious that the events that occurred in The Lord of the Rings are antediluvian, so the second breaking of the world obviously refers to the Biblical Flood.

......just kidding.....

[Celebdil]

Thanks Legate,

After reading it again, I think you're right. For some reason it sounded like he lay there for an age or so and then at last the world was broken again. But I think your interpretation makes much more sense. Thanks!

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Well, in the Silmarillion, there are lots of graves that "remained/not remained there until the world was changed" (but this was even before the Breaking of Beleriand), so I think if you have read this, no wonder that the part about Aragorn Elessar implies something similar.

[The Sixth Wizard]

This will sound very unproffessional, seeing as I have no idea where I heard this or a viable quote, but in one of the Lost Tales or something, Mandos makes a prophecy that on the day of the Final Battle Morgoth will find the way to break the Door of Night, will fight on the very plains of Valinor itself against every goodie ever made, versus every baddie ever made, and evil will be conquered forever. Turin Turambar will be the one to slay Morgoth, and Feanor will come back from the dead, aid Yavanna in restoring the Two Trees, and all Men and Elves will live together in harmony forever. (The Dwarves will aid in the restoration of Arda, as will the Ents).

But I think Tolkien scrapped this story eventually anyway, so I agree with Legate that it was referring to the pre-Numenor world, not the post-Gondor world.

[mhagain]

That would be the Second Prophecy of Mandos, which survived into the 1937 "Silmarillion", and which I don't think was ever conclusively discarded by the man himself.

[Elmo]

Just a thought if Middle Earth is meant to be the past then the continents are in a completly different shape then what they are now how did they get this way. 6000 years is no where near the time continent drift needs to change the land mass significantly. Perhaps the second breaking caused this?

[mhagain]

It's anybody's guess, but here's a very interesting picture somebody did once:

http://element.ess.ucla.edu/pictures/Middle-Earth.jpg

[Rhod the Red]

The books are not based on the real world, Tolkein has said so.

[littlemanpoet]

That is the most interesting overlay I've ever seen of Middle Earth over Europe and vicinity.

It should be understood that Tolkien said that his legendarium is feigned history of the real world. So it would be more accurate to say that the books are not the real world, but they are certainly based on a non-factual yet still more or less plausible supposed history of the real world.

[The Sixth Wizard]

Originally Posted by mhagain

That would be the Second Prophecy of Mandos, which survived into the 1937 "Silmarillion", and which I don't think was ever conclusively discarded by the man himself.

Thanks!

[Elmo]

If Middle Earth is not in based in the 'real' world how come Tolkien said we were probably in the sixth or seventh age?

[mhagain]

Middle Earth is most definitely supposed to be the real world. It originated to fill in the gaps in some legends, and establish common ground between them. Even shortly before the time LoTR was written, the primary legendarium (i.e. Silmarillion) had the British Isles formed from the breaking of Beleriand. AElfwine, who was told the Lost Tales, and who survived well into the 1950s (at least) (see the final Ainulindale, for example) was English. And this is not even counting the various definitive statements in Letters (which I don't have to hand and therefore can't directly quote at the moment).

[Břicho]

That's a really cool map of Europe/Middle Earth, however the Shire seems FAR too much to the south. It seems almost at the same latitude as Rohan.

[mhagain]

Originally Posted by Břicho

That's a really cool map of Europe/Middle Earth, however the Shire seems FAR too much to the south. It seems almost at the same latitude as Rohan.

That's a good observation, even allowing for perspective distortion from whatever projection they used for the Europe part of it.

It's still major cool to look at, though...

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Yes, the north seems a little bit moved. Nevertheless, it is nice. And after all, who knows if the rotation axis was always diverted? Possibly in the Middle-earth times the North pole was really "on the top".