Fantasy - inferior?

[Amanruthiel]

After just seeing the OSCAR nominations last week, it annoyed me to see yet again that 'fantasy and sci-fi' films are shunned.

The LOTR films will go down in film history as epics. They have introduced millions of people to reading (a past-time often viewed as geekish)and allowing their imagination to wander.

I was thankfully brought up in a household that loved reading, and was encouraged to read a range of different books. Come on guys Tolkien is the second most selling author after the Bible (some would say the top fantasy book of all times!!! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] ). Give the genre some credit.

So isn't it about time that Hollywood and the 'big wigs' there actaully relaised what people want. How many people are going to see Hours or Chicago compared to the LOTR. How many will remember those films in 50 years time? A small percentage in relation to LOTR.

Enough ranting. Anyone agree?

Blessing
A xx [img]smilies/mad.gif[/img]

[engwaalphiel]

Yes fantasy does seem to get shunned. The Academy seems to have a pattern , one year a high budget film gets the nod then the next a smaller more "artsy" film. The acting one confuses me the most however . Actors and Actresses are deemed better for acting real life than fantasy . Well i suppose in real life there is a comparison but fantasy acting must be pretty difficult too.

[eleanor_niphredil]

I would think that Fantasy acting would be harder, as you have nothing to compare yourself to. LOTR must have been extra hard, as you have to live up to so many peoples views of a certain character.

[engwaalphiel]

Exactly , LOTR is so much like real life to so many people and everyone has a comparison . To make that many people happy or somewhere near with your acting must have been difficult. Maybe fantasy gets shunned because of it's use of CGI alongside acting and the academy likes just acting.

[The Saucepan Man]

Of course, a standard requirement of actors in fantasy (and sci-fi) films is to act with, and react to, invisible counterparts who are placed in the shot later by the magic of SFX techniques such as CGI. I should imagine that it can be quite difficult to put in a convincing performance in these circumstances.

[eleanor_niphredil]

yeah, I heard one person say that the watcher and the cave troll where just ping-pong balls on a big stick. And when Legolas got on top of it, he was just on a box. His legs where not really his legs.

[engwaalphiel]

Yes, I read reports that the LOTR actors were actually lucky on this compared to Star Wars actors as they had no background and LOTR had the wonderful scenery of NZ. Considering though LOTR was such a huge scale and committment as an actor that at least one of the actors should at least get a nomination .

[Gorwingel]

I would have to agree, somewhat, but I will have to see how the academy treats ROTK. Because if it is a good film, and the academy treats it very well, my opinion may totally change. Yes I do think that Fantasy films get the short end of the stick, and I do think that it is harder to make a fantasy than a regular film. One of the reasons that fantasys may have not been nominated very much is that there has not been that many really great ones made. Because they are very expensive, hard to produce, and they take a long time (just like LOTR). For the Oscars, really the only other fantasys that we have to compare to LOTR is probably Wizard of Oz, and Star Wars, that is about it(you could maybe throw in Merry Poppins, but that was a musical, not an epic fantasy). I think probably the academys treatment of fantasys would be different, if they had more of them to nominate. But maybe you would not say that they are "inferior" because they may not have the support of the academy, but they do have the support of the public (sadly kind of like having the popular vote in the presidental election [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] )

[Arwen Imladris]

Obviously many of you are wondering why TTT didn't do so great at the Oscars. Here is an article about just that.

[Durelin]

Yeah, I know it's enraging and sickening! But I really have come to not give an orc's fart what those stinkin critics say! They're in love with what they call "drama". I call it pig crap. Thankyou. Okay, I got a bit carried away, but do you see what I mean. Hollywood is the breeding pit of corruption. Don't take offense when those critic people trash LOTR. These movies are going to last no matter what the critics do to them. The books have lived a long time, and will still, also. Man, now you people have me angry talking about this! [img]smilies/mad.gif[/img] [img]smilies/mad.gif[/img]

[avarrogion]

Right on Fantasy deserves to be on the honour list...i am still upset that FOTR didn`t won Best Movie and now TTT will suffer the same fate. What`s wrong with the playmakers outhere?
Chicago will i remember any of it`s scene? Do they have a book on it? I doubt it if they do have a book for Chicago will anyone read it as much as people are reading Tolkien`s works? [img]smilies/mad.gif[/img]

[Arod]

The thing is that these people are old school, traditionalists. They don't like change, or anything to do with it. We have come to an age of CGI technology which has changed the way we view movies. No doubt they are spectacular and do not tail off in the acting department. However I think that some in Hollywood see LOTR, Star Wars, Spider-Man, ect. to be more or less something to look at instead of seeing the story and amazing acting in front of them.

Though I am not surprised that TTT did not get a nomination for Best Picture simply because I didn't think they would nominate it again this year. Not that it wasn't a great film, but that's how they are. I would imagine that ROTK will likely be nominated and I predict that it would probably lose. Why? Because like most of them in Hollywood, they are blind.

The things I found VERY strange was that TTT did not get a nomination for best score, makeup, or costume design... Like I said they are blind... and pretty much deaf as well.

[doug*platypus]

LOTR was such a huge scale and committment as an actor that at least one of the actors should at least get a nomination .

How many people are going to see Hours or Chicago compared to the LOTR.

Those would both be absolutely ridiculous reasons to hand out Oscars. And handing out is effectively what that would be. Just because TTT is on some levels a more enjoyable movie than FOTR does not make it a better one.

The Oscars do not give awards out based on how important literacy is. They give recognition to achievements in moviemaking. Just because you happen to love Aragorn doesn't mean that Viggo Mortensen delivered one of the top five acting performances of the last year. True, the snubbing of Howard Shore's score is a little odd (although I assume that Chicago will rightly take Best Soundtrack), but I can understand how no other top class awards will come the way of TTT.

As for costume and makeup, all three movies were made at the same time, making it one production. Ngila Dickson didn't spend the last year creating thousands more costumes. And as soon as an actor in a fantasy movie delivers a performance worthy of Best Actor, then I'm sure they will be nominated. I think that Ian McKellen and Ian Holm put in exceptional performances for Supporting Roles, but Best Actor? I think some people on this site could benefit from watching a few more movies.

[The Saucepan Man]

You are of course right, Mr Platypus, that a film should not be honoured simply because it involved a lot of committment or drew big crowds.

But I feel that there is merit in the argument that films of this genre are disadvantaged in the awards stakes. They are often not considered serious enough to warrant nomination in anything but the SFX/costume/music categories.

Not that there have been many good films in this genre, and these are about the best that there have been. Personally, I consider (and I know that there are many who would disagree) that the time, effort, talent, creativity and vision of Jackson does deserve recognition. Assuming that RotK is as good as anticipated (by which I mean better than the first two), I think he and the film will be serious contenders next year.

Btw, one of the performances that I think deserves recognition, albeit that there is not (yet) any category for him, is Andy Serkis (Gollum). There is a good article, and a good thread, on this here

[Amanruthiel]

Doug,

I agree with your comment that a film should simply not be nominated just because it draws in large crowds of watchers, nor do I feel any of the actors involved in LOTR's have warranted a nomination for best actor (waiting for the backlash of angry Aragorn and Legolas fans now! [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img] ), but I do feel that just because the three films were filmed together, does not mean that they should be penalized either.

I still believe that fantasy and sci-fi films (and TV and books) are seen as a second class 'citizen'. I watch a wide range of films and read a wide range of books, so I am giving a blinkered view. Maybe the current generation will change things in the future, we shall all have to wait and see.

A xx [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img]

[hobbit punk]

It is true about the whole " a film shouldn't be nominated because it draws a crowd" thing because if that were true you might as well change the name of the Oscars to the MTV Movie Awards and have Crossroads win best picture. And I do agree that the academy does tend to ignore fantasy and sci-fi and chooses "overcoming adversity" and historical pictures. And many films deserve the awards they get but in recent years I have seen a draught in film making that seems to be tearing any integrity or creativity out of the business. All these comic book movies and sequels are evidence of this. The LOTR's movies are trying to break this and I think FOTR had a big chance of that and TTT as well but on a lesser scale. ROTK will decide the award's fate for these films and I can only hope that it will blow us all away. And I do agree with the statement that there haven't been too many good fantasy fims made. They might have been entertaining but certainly not Oscar calibre.

[engwaalphiel]

good point. The fact is that LOTR is probably one of the first fantasy films actually worthy of an oscar and it's probably come as a shock to the academy.

[Novlamothien]

I am not sure this is true, but a revewer pointed out that if FOTR won Best Picture, the Academy would feel obligated to let TTT and RTOTK win as well(which wouln't be a bad thing). I am hoping the Academy is just waiting for RTOTK so they can give it all the awards.

Namarie

[Bill Ferny]

I still believe that fantasy and sci-fi films (and TV and books) are seen as a second class 'citizen'.

Blame that on Brooks, Jordan and the countless Forgotten Realms (so-called) novelists, and the crew that wrote the script for Dungeons and Dragons-Not-Worth-the-Light-Wasted-for-Shooting movie. Fantasy authors and script-writers continue to dig the genre’s grave.

If I’m not mistaken, didn’t Willow get an Oscar for costuming or special affects? I certainly think the movie deserved mention, at any rate. Of course, the original Star Wars movies, particularly the first, were worthy of mention. The academy would be more than willing to give fantasy its due, if only those doing fantasy weren’t for the most part mindless hacks. Hopefully, in both literature and cinema, lessons will be learned from LotR (and Willow and Star Wars). Namely, fantasy, in order to be successful and artistic, has to be original, romantic and epic. Boy makes it through maze and kills orc, girl tames wolf, knight banters with dragon, old man cast’s a lightning bolt spell just isn’t going to do it.

[Cibbwin]

I think that alot of people are getting a bit hot headed. YES, critics are idiots. Are we really supposed to follow one or two people's OPINIONS on a movie/book/whatever? I didn't think so. YES, Sci-Fi and Fantasy do not get many nods at any awards. But that's because not many people are interested in what we are, simple as that. Some people think it's just a dream we're trying to live, and that's fine, it's their opinion. And that isn't 100% un-accurate, I like to roleplay a Halberd-Wielding Halfling Warrior.

Also, keep in note, alot of people don't like the ideas of these videos because of their religion or morals. Magic is viewed as evil in this world, for the most part, just like it's always been. The future has always been interpreted wrong, and some people just don't belive in aliens and phasers and such. So, unfortunatley, these two genres might never get the recognition they deserve. I'd say be content that you enjoy the movies, and move on.

[doug*platypus]

Wow! I'm glad I checked back on this thread, there have been some very intuitive posts lately. And no flames at me! Curses, playing Devil's Advocate isn't as fun as it used to be.

It seems to be consensus that LOTR has come closer than any previous Fantasy or Sci-Fi movie to capturing an Oscar for the genre. I think we should be thankful that it has not received simply a token Oscar. In my mind, that would be worse than being snubbed. If the films are to win, it should be on their own merit. The Academy gains a bit more credibility in this way as well.

Saucepan made an excellent point about there "not yet" being a category that could handle Gollum. Surely now is the time to introduce Best Digital Effects? Computer animation and effects are becoming increasingly integrated into the mainstream of movies, TV shows and commercials.

I think we've learned two important things about FOTRs failure to secure a 'real' Oscar - the Academy is a little stuffy in still not recognising Fantasy as an important form of film, and also that no Fantasy movie yet made has quite what it takes to earn Best Picture.

[Dain]

I think the prejudice extends to books a bit, too, and I'm sure you all understand what I mean. I've read some great fantasy books (LotR, Dune, etc.) but they aren't considered as "good" as the cannonical classics that well-read people are supposed to read, blah blah. People dismiss fantasy exactly because it's fantasy. They can't understand that a good piece of science fiction says just as much about the human condition or the real world as Crime and Punishment, because they can't look past the spaceships or the elves...

And didn't Titanic win an Oscar? Yeah... [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

[Amanruthiel]

Good point Dain in regard to fantasy books. My local library has a tiny section for fantasy/ science fiction books - then a massive section for Mills & Boon (romance books), but I guess it is true what many have said, the masses are catered for.

I also agree it is about time the Acadamy came into the 21st century and acknowledged the progresses made in film making. I know new categories have been developed (or re-introduced) - e.g, to accomodate Shrek (a great fantasy film!) but maybe more is needed.

Hope all are enjoying this topic, it is certainly good to see some good comments for once and not whta people did at school, or how they fancy from LOTR!

A xx [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img]

[Eruanna]

At the British Academy awards (BAFTAS), which took place in London today, The Two Towers won in two categories; Sfx (for Gollum) and the peoples choice,"Best Film".
I have to agree with earlier posts, fantasy films are overlooked time and time again by the academies but, thankfully not by the movie going public. I hope that after RoTK we will see a change in attitude.

[The Saucepan Man]

I've posted this on another thread about the LotR films and awards, but here is an excerpt from the AOL news report on the BAFTAs:

NONE of the big blockbusters which had collected numerous nominations made a massive impact at the Orange British Academy Film Awards.

The biggest winner was Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers which picked up three.

They were Best Costume Design, Best Special Effects and the Orange Film of the Year prize which is voted for by cinemagoers.

And here is the comment that I posted on the other thread:

Well, Best Costume Design and Special Effects are no surprise. But it is interesting that it picked up the other award. Clearly, the film is a big hit with film-goers generally (well, British film-goers at least). It's almost better than an Academy Award, since the the recognition comes not from a bunch of critics, but from the people who the film was actually made for.

This,I think, is fantastic news, since it can only serve to increase people's awareness of JRRT's works and persuade those to read the books who might otherwise have never considered doing so. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Lathriel]

I think directors should try to make more fantasy films. Even though it might be more difficult you can obviously see that people like movies like LOTR.
There are so many films that are just fiction. There are hardly any fantasy films, I think I have seen almost all the fantasy movies that are out there. [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

Although I dont understand why Sci-Fi isn't given any credit,.....the only reason LoTR will be remembered in 50 years is because of JRR,....he was inteligent and able to put a fantasy world in the hearts of millions,...just because he was able to do something great, doesn't mean they should have made a movie about it....although i enjoyed it, I was upset how they portreyed Dwarves as the comic relief. the movie isn't half of what the books were, and maybe thats why they didn't make awards,...they are being judged to a whole greater thing, the Books are obviously better......................... well those are jsut my thoughts, take em' or leave em'

[ March 05, 2003: Message edited by: Durion the Dark ]

[Neferchoirwen]

Just a comment on Andy Serkis...the guy's performance is so incredible that there is no way to honor his craft by giving him a nomination. The Gollum character is the body of Serkis' soul through his acting. The Academy wouldn't know what to make of it: which may go to show that the Academy does not tolerate change.

[nPiLL]

I agree one hundred percent with you. What you need to remember is the fact that, this is what always happens to the Sci-Fi and Fantasy movies. They seem to slip behind the other movies. As time goes on, these movies are remembered (as you said) while the other movies that were once popular, will be forgotten.

I think the reason this happens is because most people now want to see the action or comedy movie before they see the fantasy movie. Some of my friends who normally wouldnt see or read LotR saw the movie and liked it.

I guess thats just the way it works and we will have to deal with it. I do think LotR has been getting alot of credit though. I believe they did win 6(maybe im wrong) Emmy's. I totally agree with your point though.