Dol Guldur

[Stoatly Grimes]

Evening all,

I've always been fascinated by the idea of Dol Guldur; perhaps because it is only described in the scantest detail in LOTR and The Silmarillion (I've not read HoME <gasp!>), and therefore it remains very mysterious to me, sitting just outside my comprehension, beckoning my curiosity. Do any of you knowledgeable Tolkienites have an opinion on the appearance of Sauron's forest stronghold? For instance, was it a vast tower akin in appearance to the Barad-dur (seems unlikely), or was it more of an underground affair like Utumno/Angband? Perhaps it was more of a system of well-ventilated caves like the palace of the Elves of Mirkwood?

I'm thinking there may be some obscure passage written by Tolkien that more clearly illustrates the appearance of Dol Guldur, and if so, this is the best place to find it, I reckons.

Rightly or wrongly, I've always viewed it as a tower, but a more subtle tower than the Barad-dur. Though I expect it would have to be fairly capacious considering whole armies were barracked there. Any help with this matter would be appreciated.

Thanks.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Welcome, Stoatly Grimes! You have knocked at the right door, at least concerning the discussion, because I am not sure whether there is anything about the appearance of Dol Guldur anywhere. Indeed, it's very mysterious and personally, I find it also a very intriguing topic (and if you look at my screenname here, you may find out why). I always imagined - but only imagined, and it has nothing to do with any evidence, because I don't know of any - Dol Guldur as an above-ground structure, rather flat than tower-like, something similar to Minas Tirith, if I had to use an example. A walled structure, a "little city", with some fortress, but not a high one, like a tower, but low one, like a simple keep. Actually, in the Appendices to LotR, it is said that after the War of the Ring, Galadriel "threw down its walls and laid bare its pits". So we can conclude that it was some above-ground structure with walls, and there were some pits underground, probably dungeons like the one where Thráin was imprisoned and where Gandalf found him. Other details, like whether Sauron during his stay there dwelt in the highest tower or somewhere underground, are probably left to speculation. And don't gasp about not reading HoME, I haven't either (though only because it's impossible to obtain it where I live), and I believe many haven't, so hereby I call anyone who did to tell us if there is anything written in there about Dol Guldur.

[Nazgûl-king]

I have not read the History of Middle-earth books either. This probably isn’t considered cannon but here is an artwork image of Dol Guldur from Battle for Middle-Earth II -

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Looks nice. I have imagined it similarly, only less red and less... horned.

I have seen several paintings of Dol Guldur, but I did not post them here, mainly because I don't know about links to them on the internet, and partially because I have them on M-E collectible cards (and it does not look that nice even when scanned, though if you wanted for the sake of this thread...). And partially because they are not still 100% how I imagine Dol Guldur - just a little more than this one.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Looks nice. I have imagined it similarly, only less red and less... horned.

Yeah. . .what is it with those horns, I thought it seemed weird on some strucktures in the movies as well.

It kind of annoys me that people feel a need to make the buildings look evil in such an obviouse way. . .I would not mind if they looked like any other building or you could just make them a bit sinicter or simply dark. . .

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Rune Son of Bjarne

Yeah. . .what is it with those horns, I thought it seemed weird on some strucktures in the movies as well.

It kind of annoys me that people feel a need to make the buildings look evil in such an obviouse way. . .I would not mind if they looked like any other building or you could just make them a bit sinicter or simply dark. . .

My words. I even thought this picture up here resembles the movie Minas Morgul, only in a different light. I mean come on, why to build these horns on every building? I can understand some administrative building, like the tower where Sauron lives, might have some more interesting architecture (though I'd expect Sauron having a better taste than this), but why should every wall look like barbed wire.

[Gordis]

Dol Guldur was originally known as Amon Lanc

"Amon Lanc, "Naked Hill," was the highest point in the highland at the south-west corner of the Greenwood, and was so called because no trees grew on its summit. In later days it was Dol Guldur, the first stronghold of Sauron after his awakening. [Author's note #12 to the Disaster of the Gladden -UT]

It has been the capital of Oropher's Silvan Elves:

Long before the War of the Alliance, Oropher, King of the Silvan Elves east of Anduin, being disturbed by rumours of the rising power of Sauron, had left their ancient dwellings about Amon Lanc, across the river from their kin in Lórien. ... Oropher's retreat northwards within the Greenwood is ascribed to his desire to move out of range of the Dwarves of Khazad-dûm and of Celeborn and Galadriel in Lórien.ibid #14

Anyway, as it used to be a dwelling of Thranduil's father Oropher, it may well be that the Elves had dwelt in the caves within the hill in the manner of Doriath. At least it seems to be implied in this quote:

Thranduil established his realm in the north-east of the forest and delved there a fortress and great halls underground. Oropher was of Sindarin origin, and no doubt Thranduil his son was following the example of King Thingol long before, in Doriath; though his halls were not to be compared with Menegroth. App B to the History of Galadriel and Celeborn in UT.

Sauron the Necromancer likely used the caves for store-rooms and dungeons and also constructed a small fortress above ground.
I don't think it was ever that flashy and revealing ("This way to the Evil Overlord!") as in the picture posted above. Most likely it has been quite ordinary and seemingly of no great strength or importance. After all the Wise let it be for a thousand years and were very slow in comprehending the identity of the Necromancer.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Gordis

Dol Guldur was originally known as Amon Lanc

Oh! Really? Wow, what an interesting revelation...

Originally Posted by Gordis

Anyway, as it used to be a dwelling of Thranduil's father Oropher, it may well be that the Elves had dwelt in the caves within the hill in the manner of Doriath. At least it seems to be implied in this quote:

Yes, I thought about it as well. It is not said what the dwelling on Amon Lanc looked like, but I always imagined it as some above-ground village(s) or several spread up houses and eventually some (probably not natural) caves around there for storage rooms etc. On the other hand, the quote may be also interpretated in the way that this was the first case Thranduil (or his father) made such an underground dwelling, and that's because they had to retreat from Sauron, so they started to think about some fortress, and that reminded Thranduil of Doriath. So this would imply there were no caves, natural or otherwise, in Amon Lanc, and the dungeons and pits were made there later by Sauron. I certainly did not imagine the hill full of holes, ever.

Originally Posted by Gordis

I don't think it was ever that flashy and revealing ("This way to the Evil Overlord!") as in the picture posted above. Most likely it has been quite ordinary and seemingly of no great strength or importance. After all the Wise let it be for a thousand years and were very slow in comprehending the identity of the Necromancer.

I agree. I think if anything, it resembled some rogue keep or even a bandit lair, and only later, after Sauron returned to Mordor and Dol Guldur was inhabited once more "with power sevenfold", it might have become a more impressive fortress.

[Gordis]

Oh! Really? Wow, what an interesting revelation...

I was trying to impress not you, Legate, but the one who started this thread.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

I think we should beat up Legate for that smug remark.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Gordis

I was trying to impress not you, Legate, but the one who started this thread.

I know. I just couldn't resist

[Stoatly Grimes]

Originally Posted by Gordis

I was trying to impress not you, Legate, but the one who started this thread.

You succeeded Gordis, I am impressed, if that's the right word

Thanks all for the responses. I agree that the artwork above - while nice - has too much of a Jackson-influence about it, with the superfluous horns and ghoulish red light.

[Alfirin]

I would agree that Dol Guldur would have to be fairly modest in apperance, proably a small stone keep with most of the actual archetecture subterrenean. If nothing else, the top of Dol Guldur would have to be below the top of the trees of Mirkwood, or it would be easily visible, if not by the elves, than by someone looking from outside of the woods from a higer elevation.
On a related note to this I have alawys wondered exactly how Saron mamged to travel from Dol Guldur to Barad Dur when it was finally ready. Sauron was presumable already in his eye from by them and while extemely powerful, this form is not particualry motile. Or am I off in my guesses and sauron was still in his Giant warrior form at the time, capable of riding.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

It does seem to me that the above picture is a trifle flashy for a place Sauron used to hide out while he was rebuilding his strength. It's quite creepy looking, but does it make sense as a place for someone trying to pass himself off as the Necromancer rather than the Dark Lord? This fairly shrieks "someone important (and not just a lesser Nazgul) lives here." I always tended to think of Dol Guldur as your basic medieval stronghold, plain, fortified, and rather unimpressive, but effective.

[Gordis]

Stoatly Grimes -

Alfirin - In the books Sauron had neither the "Giant warrior" nor "the Eye" forms.
At first, back in the Second Age, he had been a shape-shifter, able to assume any guise from a wolf to a snake to Elven-like fair Annatar.
Then when his material body had perished in the fall of Numenor, he lost the ability to assume a fair guise. He made himself a new body - humanoid, higher than any man "but NOT gigantic". This shape was terrible to look upon.

Then Elendil and Gil-Galad brought Sauron down and Isildur took the Ring. In a millennium or more, Sauron was able to make himself a new body yet again - seemingly the exact copy of his last one, with the missing finger. In this guise he stayed till the very end.

[skip spence]

I find it curious that Galdalf was able to enter Dol Guldur when Sauron was present.
How did he manage this? If Dol Guldur was a stronghold you imagine it being foritfied with stone walls and a big main gate, staffed with legions of evil men, orcs and wraiths. But would Galdalf be able to entre through the main gate with Sauron present? Surely not, even if he came in disguise. Perhaps he came into the underground catacombs through some back door he discovered. Or maybe Dol Guldur was more like a haunted village, much like the town of Minas Morgul.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Ibrîniðilpathânezel

It does seem to me that the above picture is a trifle flashy for a place Sauron used to hide out while he was rebuilding his strength.

Indeed, and I don't think it would have looked like that even after it was reoccupied later (and this time everyone knew Sauron's forces are there).

Originally Posted by Gordis

Alfirin - In the books Sauron had neither the "Giant warrior" nor "the Eye" forms.
At first, back in the Second Age, he had been a shape-shifter, able to assume any guise from a wolf to a snake to Elven-like fair Annatar.
Then when his material body had perished in the fall of Numenor, he lost the ability to assume a fair guise. He made himself a new body - humanoid, higher than any man "but NOT gigantic". This shape was terrible to look upon.

Then Elendil and Gil-Galad brought Sauron down and Isildur took the Ring. In a millennium or more, Sauron was able to make himself a new body yet again - seemingly the exact copy of his last one, with the missing finger. In this guise he stayed till the very end.

True. He was in some sort of humanoid form, and don't remember that being called "the Necromancer of Dol Guldur" could have implied that he also was known to have a humanoid form. Which is related to the last question:

Originally Posted by skip spence

I find it curious that Galdalf was able to enter Dol Guldur when Sauron was present.
How did he manage this? If Dol Guldur was a stronghold you imagine it being foritfied with stone walls and a big main gate, staffed with legions of evil men, orcs and wraiths. But would Galdalf be able to entre through the main gate with Sauron present? Surely not, even if he came in disguise. Perhaps he came into the underground catacombs through some back door he discovered. Or maybe Dol Guldur was more like a haunted village, much like the town of Minas Morgul.

Not sure if Minas Morgul was "haunted village" any more than Dol Guldur was. It was inhabited by Orcs (like Gorbag's troop), evil Men and who knows what else, and it was a big city, comparable to Minas Tirith. I believe some ten thousand Orcs are the minimum of inhabitants; and they were guarding the gates and everything else as well.

Though, knowing Gandalf, I would not underestimate him. If a group of Orcs or Trolls was guarding the gates, I can imagine good old Gandalf disguised as an Orc, or using his ventriloquism trick or other things to get past them (like that invisibility-thing he did when pursuing the Dwarves who were captured by the Misty Mountain Goblins). Nay, I believe getting in was not a problem, he only had to take care not to be caught - and something implies that he was spotted and alarm was raised and he had to run away shooting fire and smoke all around the place (somewhere he says "I barely got out of there alive"). It is obvious that when he found Thráin there, he revealed himself to him in his normal shape - possibly, he found a Dwarven prisoner and wanted to help him, but the old Dwarf only managed to give him the map and the key and died. But what intrigues me is the fact that Gandalf revealed who "the Necromancer" really is - and that is: did he overhear some captains' discussion - but I don't know from whichever they said he could be as sure as he was that Sauron is there - or did he see Sauron personally? He might took a peek through a keyhole into his throne chamber or something, but still...?

[skip spence]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Though, knowing Gandalf, I would not underestimate him. If a group of Orcs or Trolls was guarding the gates, I can imagine good old Gandalf disguised as an Orc, or using his ventriloquism trick or other things to get past them (like that invisibility-thing he did when pursuing the Dwarves who were captured by the Misty Mountain Goblins). Nay, I believe getting in was not a problem, he only had to take care not to be caught - and something implies that he was spotted and alarm was raised and he had to run away shooting fire and smoke all around the place (somewhere he says "I barely got out of there alive"). It is obvious that when he found Thráin there, he revealed himself to him in his normal shape - possibly, he found a Dwarven prisoner and wanted to help him, but the old Dwarf only managed to give him the map and the key and died. But what intrigues me is the fact that Gandalf revealed who "the Necromancer" really is - and that is: did he overhear some captains' discussion - but I don't know from whichever they said he could be as sure as he was that Sauron is there - or did he see Sauron personally? He might took a peek through a keyhole into his throne chamber or something, but still...?

That would make a cool movie. Hey, wait a minute...

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by skip spence

That would make a cool movie. Hey, wait a minute...

Exactly. I was beginning to think about a fan-fiction. Then I went and I am just watching one movie which I felt like in similar mood. Maybe I'll catch some inspiration and write something Don't you want to try a cooperative work on a script?

[skip spence]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Don't you want to try a cooperative work on a script?

Right, and then we could sell the script to New Line Cinema and become millionaires. If they don't cheat us on the compensation that is.

I actually think the second "Hobbit"-movie will feature Gandalf's visit to Dol Guldur much like you described it if it is ever made, which I certainly hope it will be.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by skip spence

I actually think the second "Hobbit"-movie will feature Gandalf's visit to Dol Guldur much like you described it if it is ever made, which I certainly hope it will be.

Yes, and that's what I am afraid of: I believe, among other things, that Dol Guldur there would look like the picture above.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

Not that it seems to make any difference to film-makers, but Gandalf's visit to the dungeons of Dol Guldur was over and done with by the time of The Hobbit. He got the key and the map from Thrain in the dungeons, and those he turned over to Thorin early in the story. They might get around to showing the White Council attacking Dol Guldur, though. And I also shudder to think of it looking like that picture.

Minas Morgul, by the bye, was originally a fortress of Gondor, Minas Ithil, and it would make sense that it look like other places built by the Numenoreans. -- Minas Tirith, Orthanc, etc. But I don't believe they built Dol Guldur -- or is my memory just failing me?

[Kuruharan]

Isn’t a partial description of Dol Guldur given in the Fellowship of the Ring?

But what intrigues me is the fact that Gandalf revealed who "the Necromancer" really is - and that is: did he overhear some captains' discussion - but I don't know from whichever they said he could be as sure as he was that Sauron is there - or did he see Sauron personally? He might took a peek through a keyhole into his throne chamber or something, but still...?

That is an interesting question about how Gandalf knew. I think Gandalf just recognized Sauron’s presence in the place, having known him before when they were singing the Music. I think he picked up the vibe, as it were.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Ibrîniðilpathânezel

Minas Morgul, by the bye, was originally a fortress of Gondor, Minas Ithil, and it would make sense that it look like other places built by the Numenoreans. -- Minas Tirith, Orthanc, etc. But I don't believe they built Dol Guldur -- or is my memory just failing me?

Your memory is not failing you, Amon Lanc was originally probably a place with just some elven settlement, and later the fortress (of Dol Guldur at that time already) was built there later.

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

Isn’t a partial description of Dol Guldur given in the Fellowship of the Ring?

I don't think so. There is the moment where Frodo looks from Cerin Amroth and sees only dark cloud. Haldir, or who is that there, says there is "forest of dark fir" around Guldur and that there is "black cloud above it lately", but nothing much more. And then, when Frodo looks from Amon Hen, he sees only battle of Men and wild beasts in Mirkwood, but not Dol Guldur.

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

That is an interesting question about how Gandalf knew. I think Gandalf just recognized Sauron’s presence in the place, having known him before when they were singing the Music. I think he picked up the vibe, as it were.

I thought about similar things as well. But then the question arises - how close would Gandalf need to be to recognize Sauron? In Moria, when he was placing a spell upon the door on whose other side the Balrog was, he merely sensed "something he never sensed before". He also sensed the Balrog when he entered the room, but he did not realise it was the Balrog until he saw him (and Legolas said it). So, I think even though he may have had his expectations to find Sauron there, he had to come quite close to him - and still, I'm sure he'd double-check it and not rely just on some feeling - he had to be absolutely sure, not to say "maybe there's Sauron, or maybe there's a Balrog", for example. He seems pretty convinced when speaking to Elrond about it:

Originally Posted by Silmarillion

True, alas, is our guess. This is not one of the Úlairi, as many have long supposed. It is Sauron himself who has taken shape again and now grows apace; and he is gathering again all the Rings to his hand; and he seeks ever for news of the One, and of the Heirs of Isildur, if they live still on earth.

Sounds like some enspionage old Gandalf did there, and "taken shape" - may even refer to the fact that he saw him?

By the way - to avoid a double-post, Gandalf indeed entered Dol Guldur in disguise:

Originally Posted by UT, the Quest of Erebor

I remembered a dangerous journey of mine, ninety-one years before, when I had entered Dol Guldur in disguise, and had found there an unhappy Dwarf dying in the pits.

[Kuruharan]

I don't think so. There is the moment where Frodo looks from Cerin Amroth and sees only dark cloud. Haldir, or who is that there, says there is "forest of dark fir" around Guldur and that there is "black cloud above it lately", but nothing much more.

Yeah, that was the passage of which I was thinking. I couldn't remember if there was any sort of description there or not.

In Moria, when he was placing a spell upon the door on whose other side the Balrog was, he merely sensed "something he never sensed before".

This sort of throws my original thought into a bit of question because the Balrog was also a being with which Gandalf would have been familiar during the Music. It had changed to the point that Gandalf could no longer recognize it. How much more so with Sauron...?

*ponders*

Some kind of contact or cross referencing may have been required.

[Elmo]

This sort of throws my original thought into a bit of question because the Balrog was also a being with which Gandalf would have been familiar during the Music. It had changed to the point that Gandalf could no longer recognize it. How much more so with Sauron...?

Doesn't Gandalf mention something like "like my name is Olorin in the west that is forgotten'? Maybe he's forgotten everything (except that name) before he came to Middle Earth.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

This sort of throws my original thought into a bit of question because the Balrog was also a being with which Gandalf would have been familiar during the Music. It had changed to the point that Gandalf could no longer recognize it. How much more so with Sauron...?

It seems to me that it's the other way around, that Gandalf was changed by the constraints of his mission in Middle-earth. He and the other Istari were sent in real bodies rather than a self-incarnate fana, partly for the purpose of diminishing their native abilities so there would be less temptation to try to rule the Eruhini by revealing their full power. Sauron and the Balrog don't have these constraints. I suspect Gandalf would probably recognize Sauron, since it would be rather foolish for the Valar to send their servants specifically for the purpose of contesting him, and then take away the ability to identify him; Sauron, on the other hand, might have difficulty identifying Gandalf, at first because he was still concentrating on gathering his own strength again. I tend to wonder if he ever did figure out who Gandalf was, since the Mouth of Sauron appears to consider him more of a nuisance than a threat (although Sauron might've gotten confirmation via Saruman, and simply doesn't consider Olorin a threat, anyway, and wouldn't've told an underling even if he did). The Balrog... well, I suppose it's been a long time since anyone has seen or felt the presence of a Balrog -- though I have long been puzzled over the fact that everyone seems to have forgotten what drove the Dwarves out of Moria. A matter for another discussion, I suppose.

[Kuruharan]

Maybe he's forgotten everything (except that name) before he came to Middle Earth.

I'm not sure "forgotten" is the word I'd use to describe it. "Dimmed" or "veiled" I think describes it more accurately.

It seems to me that it's the other way around

There is some merit in what you are saying, but Sauron and the Balrog had undergone *profound* changes since the time that they had sung the Music.

I think it would be similar to the way that Manwe failed to recognize Melkor when the Valar defeated him in the War of the Powers.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

This sort of throws my original thought into a bit of question because the Balrog was also a being with which Gandalf would have been familiar during the Music. It had changed to the point that Gandalf could no longer recognize it. How much more so with Sauron...?

Gandalf definitely forgot a lot when he was incarnated:

Originally Posted by UT; Istari

For it is said indeed that being embodied the Istari had needs to learn much anew by slow experience, and though they knew whence they came the memory of the Blessed Realm was to them a vision from afar off, for which (so long as they remained true to their mission) they yearned exceedingly.

I don't believe he at the moment remembered some Balrog or even Sauron who was singing with him in the Music. Also, he met them only before the descent to Arda (well, Sauron maybe even later, but still a long time ago), where they still did not have bodies and everything, so his perception of them was different.

Originally Posted by Ibrîniðilpathânezel

It seems to me that it's the other way around, that Gandalf was changed by the constraints of his mission in Middle-earth. He and the other Istari were sent in real bodies rather than a self-incarnate fana, partly for the purpose of diminishing their native abilities so there would be less temptation to try to rule the Eruhini by revealing their full power. Sauron and the Balrog don't have these constraints.

Yup, I also think so. But as shown above, I think it worked even the other way around.

I tend to wonder if he ever did figure out who Gandalf was, since the Mouth of Sauron appears to consider him more of a nuisance than a threat (although Sauron might've gotten confirmation via Saruman, and simply doesn't consider Olorin a threat, anyway, and wouldn't've told an underling even if he did).

I believe Sauron knew what Gandalf is, just did not bother to tell his servants, as many of them would not understand anyway. Although...

Originally Posted by UT; Istari

and none save maybe Elrond, Círdan and Galadriel discovered of what kind they were or whence they came.

So if we take this indeed literally, word-to-word, then Sauron did not know. Only Elrond, Círdan and Galadriel; and no one else.

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

There is some merit in what you are saying, but Sauron and the Balrog had undergone *profound* changes since the time that they had sung the Music.

I think it would be similar to the way that Manwe failed to recognize Melkor when the Valar defeated him in the War of the Powers.

Exactly (to the first). Yes, something like that (to the second).

[Gordis]

and none save maybe Elrond, Círdan and Galadriel discovered of what kind they were or whence they came.UT; Istari

I don't think it could be taken literally. Saruman knew who Gandalf was and would have told Sauron, if the other didn't know about the Istari already.

I think Sauron came to know about the Istari and Gandalf in particular much-much earlier - for hadn't he run away when Gandalf came to Dol Guldur the first time in 2063? Sauron had been so afraid of him that he hid for 400 years somewhere in the East.

Also consider that the Witch-King knew about Gandalf, (maybe from Sauron, maybe from personal experience during his rule of Angmar), recognized his power and feared his involvement with the Ring:

Oct. 3: Gandalf reaches Weathertop but does not overtake [Witch-king and other four Riders]; for they become aware of his approach as he overtakes them on Shadowfax, and withdraw into hiding beside the road. They close in behind. [The Witch-king] is both pleased and puzzled. For a while he had been in great fear, thinking that by some means Gandalf had got possession of the Ring and was now the Bearer; but as Gandalf passes he is aware that Gandalf has not got the Ring. What is he pursuing? He himself must be after the escaping Bearer; and it must therefore somehow have gone on far ahead. But Gandalf is a great power and enemy. He must be dealt with, and yet that needs great force. RC, p.167

As for the Mouth, he did as instructed, showing contempt to both Gandalf and Aragorn - however he was much afraid himself.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Gordis

I don't think it could be taken literally. Saruman knew who Gandalf was and would have told Sauron, if the other didn't know about the Istari already.

Nay, why would he do that? Sauron might have guessed it, or forced it out of him, possibly, but Saruman had no need to tell him from his own initiative. Saruman was very clever and aware of the fact that having more knowledge than those around him is always advantageous for him.

I think Sauron came to know about the Istari and Gandalf in particular much-much earlier - for hadn't he run away when Gandalf came to Dol Guldur the first time in 2063? Sauron had been so afraid of him that he hid for 400 years somewhere in the East.

That's possible. But it's also possible that Sauron simply was not strong enough yet back then and even though not knowing who he is, he felt him powerful (something like if Elrond came there) and so he decided to escape. Gandalf had already quite some time of his actions in M-E, so Sauron might have learned about him being a powerful figure, and he did not necessarily have to know who he was.

Also consider that the Witch-King knew about Gandalf, (maybe from Sauron, maybe from personal experience during his rule of Angmar), recognized his power and feared his involvement with the Ring:

Well, this does not necessarily say he knew what Gandalf is. He might have known he is a dangerous enemy, well indeed, he was, that much was clear to Sauron, surely - like Saruman, or Elrond, or Galadriel, or whoever else. And if Gandalf indeed was in Dol Guldur and escaped from there, then Sauron knew he has a really powerful enemy in him. And yet he did not need to know his true identity.

As for the Mouth, he did as instructed, showing contempt to both Gandalf and Aragorn - however he was much afraid himself.

His fear was caused by the "kingly charisma" of Aragorn.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Nay, why would he do that? Sauron might have guessed it, or forced it out of him, possibly, but Saruman had no need to tell him from his own initiative. Saruman was very clever and aware of the fact that having more knowledge than those around him is always advantageous for him.

Why would he tell Sauron? - to position himself as a powerful ally, not a lowly servant, Saruman had to impress Sauron with his power. Also, I am almost sure that the two Maiar had been quite well acquainted while they both were in the train of Aule in Valinor - like two post-docs of the same professor. It may well be that Curumo's admiration and envy for Sauron dates back to these times.

That's possible. But it's also possible that Sauron simply was not strong enough yet back then and even though not knowing who he is, he felt him powerful (something like if Elrond came there) and so he decided to escape. Gandalf had already quite some time of his actions in M-E, so Sauron might have learned about him being a powerful figure, and he did not necessarily have to know who he was.

In the case of Gandalf, Sauron may have indeed not known him as Olorin before. However, it is quite possible that he recognised him as another incarnate Maia. He wouldn't be so impressed if Elrond came there, I believe.

As for the Witch-King, he surely was aware of Gandalf's power. The WK may or may not have known that Gandalf was a Maia; however, given his extensive experience with Sauron, I believe he would know a Maia when he saw one.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Gordis

Why would he tell Sauron? - to position himself as a powerful ally, not a lowly servant, Saruman had to impress Sauron with his power. Also, I am almost sure that the two Maiar had been quite well acquainted while they both were in the train of Aule in Valinor - like two post-docs of the same professor. It may well be that Curumo's admiration and envy for Sauron dates back to these times.

Envy? Definitely. Admiration? Never. Saruman envied Sauron his skills, but I think he did not admire him for that. And surely he chose matters of less overall importance, though seeming important, to impress Sauron. And after all, telling Sauron "look, we are all Maiar and came from the West" would not be much of a help to Sauron anyway. What use this information has? None. And I also believe that the Istari did not think consciously anymore about that they were Maiar - and about the West, cf. the quote I cited above.

He wouldn't be so impressed if Elrond came there, I believe.

Oh yes, he would. He was quite afraid of all the Wise, and of all the Elf-lords. The most of Galadriel (and I believe if there was a person he was afraid of the most in M-E, except maybe for Isildur's heir, if he was found, it would be her), but I believe he won't like Elrond running around his fortress as well.

As for the Witch-King, he surely was aware of Gandalf's power. The WK may or may not have known that Gandalf was a Maia; however, given his extensive experience with Sauron, I believe he would know a Maia when he saw one.

I believe you are making it too simplificated. Meeting a Maia is not the same as meeting a bull, you don't recognize him every other time because he has horns, and even then you could mistake him for a buffalo. WK would, I believe, recognize a Sauron if he met one - that is, he could recognize Annatar. But a) the Istari were all incarnate, so something completely different, and b) as I said, it's individual. He would say "this is a powerful entity", but not "this is a maia". Do you think WK would say "this is a maia" if he met Balrog? Hardly. He'd say "a demon of the ancient world", meaning nothing more and nothing less. The same, with Gandalf, "this is a Wizard", something like Saruman, but nothing more, nothing less. And Sauron for him is Sauron.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Envy? Definitely. Admiration? Never. Saruman envied Sauron his skills, but I think he did not admire him for that. And surely he chose matters of less overall importance, though seeming important, to impress Sauron.

I am not an expert on psychology, but I would say it is one thing to envy a person and maybe try to harm him because of that envy and another thing is to envy someone and try to emulate him in all things - big and small. That (to me) speaks of admiration.

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

And after all, telling Sauron "look, we are all Maiar and came from the West" would not be much of a help to Sauron anyway. What use this information has? None. And I also believe that the Istari did not think consciously anymore about that they were Maiar - and about the West, cf. the quote I cited above.

Not that, but something like: “I am your old pal Curumo, don’t you remember me? I have always been in awe of your skills with metal and gems and the old Gaffer Aule has never been the same since you left, lamenting the loss of his best pupil. But now I see you have chosen the right path. Middle Earth needs order.”
And the quote you have provided doesn’t tell that the incarnate Maiar had lost all memory of their former lives.

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

[Sauron] was quite afraid of all the Wise, and of all the Elf-lords. The most of Galadriel (and I believe if there was a person he was afraid of the most in M-E, except maybe for Isildur's heir, if he was found, it would be her), but I believe he won't like Elrond running around his fortress as well.

What you say, I think, contradicts the Letter 246

In his actual presence none but very few of equal stature could have hoped to withhold [the Ring] from him. Of 'mortals' no one, not even Aragorn. […] Sauron should be thought of as very terrible. Of the others only Gandalf might be expected to master him – being an emissary of the Powers and a creature of the same order, an immortal spirit taking a visible physical form. In the 'Mirror of Galadriel', it appears that Galadriel conceived of herself as capable of wielding the Ring and supplanting the Dark Lord. If so, so also were the other guardians of the Three, especially Elrond. But this is another matter. It was part of the essential deceit of the Ring to fill minds with imaginations of supreme power.

Sure, in 2063 Sauron was not as powerful as in 3019, but still the grade of “scariness” of the Wise would not be changed: with Gandalf (and probably Saruman before his downfall) at the top, Elrond and Galadriel below and “Mortals” at the end of the list..

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Meeting a Maia is not the same as meeting a bull, you don't recognize him every other time because he has horns, and even then you could mistake him for a buffalo. WK would, I believe, recognize a Sauron if he met one - that is, he could recognize Annatar. But a) the Istari were all incarnate, so something completely different, and b) as I said, it's individual. He would say "this is a powerful entity", but not "this is a maia". Do you think WK would say "this is a maia" if he met Balrog? Hardly. He'd say "a demon of the ancient world", meaning nothing more and nothing less. The same, with Gandalf, "this is a Wizard", something like Saruman, but nothing more, nothing less. And Sauron for him is Sauron.

I am not sure your analysis is correct re: the Witch-King. As for mistaking a bull for a buffalo, here the Witch-King would be as prone to mistakes as any other Man, maybe more - owing to his poor sight in daylight. That would have been the case with the Wizards as well, if the WK had only to rely on his sight in the World of Light.
But a hobbit or an ordinary man would probably mistake Glorfindel for Legolas (supposing the latter were blond as well). The WK would never make such a mistake, as Glorfindel shines in the Spirit world, while Legolas doesn’t.

Do you know how Maiar look in the Spirit World? I don’t. Logically they should have some presence there, no less than Calaquendi Elves (for have they not seen the Light of the Trees as well?). Thus it may well be that the Calaquendi Elves glow, for instance, orange, while Maiar have pure white glow. And, if that is the case, then the WK would be able to tell that the wizards and the Barlog have a glow unsettlingly similar to that of Sauron. Thus the three are of the same kind – Maiar.
And yea, the Witch-King being an educated High Numenorean in life, and a close associate of Sauron in wraithdom, most likely knew full well that Barlogs were Maiar in Melkor’s service. To whom do you think Sauron told his First Age tales while in his cups?

[Ghazi]

Originally Posted by Gordis

...the Witch-King being an educated High Numenorean in life...

Numenorean? Show me.

[Nerwen]

Three of them were Númenórean lords; I don't think Tolkien ever said which three.

[Alfirin]

All we definitvely know is that Khamul (the second in Command ringwraith) was a King of some group of the Easterlings before turning Wraith. However given that the Witch king is the Witch King, as evidence is made that he was a king long before he became a wraith, I feel it unlikely that he can be numbered amoung the Numenorean wraiths. While it would be a compelling sign of Saurons sucess in corrupting the Numernoreans if the three ring reciptients were members of the Numernorean Royal line, it seems likey that if Tolkein had meant it to be, he would have certainly said so. I feel that the Numernorean three were probably all sorcerors in life, (Tolkein said that some of the Wraiths were) icidentally I also think that the witch king was proaobly the first man Sauron gave a ring to. (The three to Numernor seems to suggest that Sauron did not give all of the rings to thier recipients at once, but waited for likely candidates to appear to him.) and command of the Nazgul host (not to mention command of Sauron's entire army!) would seem to be the kind of thing sauron would grant to his most loyal wraith which given sauron would proably transalte to the one that had been with him longest.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Alfirin

All we definitvely know is that Khamul (the second in Command ringwraith) was a King of some group of the Easterlings before turning Wraith. However given that the Witch king is the Witch King, as evidence is made that he was a king long before he became a wraith, I feel it unlikely that he can be numbered amoung the Numenorean wraiths.

But, Alfirin, he was the King of Angmar in the Third Age– long after becoming a wraith.

Originally Posted by Alfirin

command of the Nazgul host (not to mention command of Sauron's entire army!) would seem to be the kind of thing sauron would grant to his most loyal wraith which given sauron would proably transalte to the one that had been with him longest.

But all Ringwraiths are "loyal"– in fact they are completely subject to Sauron's will. There's no "most loyal". I'd think he'd give command to whoever happened to be the best wraith for the job.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

But what intrigues me is the fact that Gandalf revealed who "the Necromancer" really is - and that is: did he overhear some captains' discussion - but I don't know from whichever they said he could be as sure as he was that Sauron is there - or did he see Sauron personally? He might took a peek through a keyhole into his throne chamber or something, but still...?

Easy- he felt a disturbance in the Force...

As to the W-K- that derives from his old title (Witch) King of Angmar. Although it's not out of the question that he or some other Wraith might have been ruler of a Black Numenorean realm, I doubt any BN colonists would have dared take the title of King so long as the House of Elros ruled across the Sea.

In fact, one might suppose that the Numenorean Nazgul were the last created- during Saurons captivity. But that wouldn't really leave enough time for the wraithing process to be completed.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

In fact, one might suppose that the Numenorean Nazgul were the last created- during Saurons captivity. But that wouldn't really leave enough time for the wraithing process to be completed.

Nay, that's improbable. The Tale of the Years says:

2251 - Tar-Atanamir takes the sceptre. Rebellion and division of the Númenoreans begins. About this time the Nazgul or Ringwraiths, slaves of the Nine Rings, first appear.

Of the Nine, it is said, which implies their number was completed during that time (I also don't think it happened all at once, but let's say from the moment Sauron achieved the Rings - 1690s - which was plenty time to collect nine people), and, mainly, there is the note of division of the Númenoreans. Yes, I believe the three Númenorean Nazgul could have been among the last ones, but not during Sauron's captivity, but by this time - simply some wicked Númenoreans who lived in the M-E colonies, I believe. You know, an evil prefect, a greedy ambassador, a pioneer who wanted to explore M-E and was interested in sorcery.

And concerning WK, I agree with Nerwen - the Lord of the Nazgul achieved this "King" title only after his reign in Angmar, which is Third Age.