Why is northern Eriador (Lake Evendim, Fornost) deserted at the end of the 3rd Age?

[CSteefel]

I am wondering why the northern portions of Eriador appear to be completely deserted at the end of the Third Age. I am thinking of Lake Evendim and Fornost, which really are not all that far north of the Shire. Other regions seem to be deserted as well, including the land between Bree and Rivendell, even south of the road.

I have seen a reference to the fact that the Rangers occasionally go up to Deadman's Dike, but the reason for this is not readily apparent. Only thing I can think of is that most of this land is "haunted" in some way or another by the Witch King 1,000 years before and it took the downfall of Sauron to make it possible for Lake Evendim to be resettled in the 4th Age...

[Elmo]

Isn't it just lack of people, a result of the low birth rate after the fall of the north kingdom, it regained people after the third age because there was a baby boom amongstt the people of that region.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by CSteefel

I have seen a reference to the fact that the Rangers occasionally go up to Deadman's Dike, but the reason for this is not readily apparent. Only thing I can think of is that most of this land is "haunted" in some way or another by the Witch King 1,000 years before and it took the downfall of Sauron to make it possible for Lake Evendim to be resettled in the 4th Age...

Your references to the Rangers' visiting Deadman's Dike are correct (Gandalf himself says it to Barliman Butterbur when he and the Hobbits are returning to the Shire. There is the main source of information about it, apart from the Appendices).

Originally Posted by RotK Chapter 7, "Homeward Bound"

"And many folk used to dwell away north, a hundred miles or more from here, at the far end of the Greenway: on the North Downs or by Lake Evendim."
"Up away by Deadmen's Dike?" said Butterbur, looking even more dubious. "That's haunted land, they say. None but a robber would go there."
"The Rangers go there," said Gandalf. "Deadmen's Dike, you say. So it has been called for long years; but its right name, Barliman, is Fornost Erain, Norbury of the Kings. And the King will come there again one day; and then you'll have some fair folk riding through."

However, I imagine it more like visiting an old monument of Arnor, an act of piety. I don't actually think there would be something like evil ghost-haunted area in there. It is only the superstitiousness of the Breelanders to say that it is a haunted place: of course, because there was a big battle long ago, something evil (Witch-King) resided there for some time, and so on. But I would imagine even if some evil spirits lived there, the Rangers would go and clean it up ASAP. Sounds nondúnedainish to me to leave the main city of their ancestors unhallowed, if they had no problems with cleansing it (unlike for example Morgul, which was occupied by armed force - but in the end, we know that Aragorn did the same, I imagine this would be a similar situation).

Isn't it just lack of people, a result of the low birth rate after the fall of the north kingdom, it regained people after the third age because there was a baby boom amongstt the people of that region.

One of the factors, probably as well. The main thing would be, I think, that people were trying to concentrate at one point in the wilderness which now became of Eriador, although I can imagine a few settlements here and there, but not that significant.

[Elmo]

However, I imagine it more like visiting an old monument of Arnor, an act of piety. I don't actually think there would be something like evil ghost-haunted area in there. It is only the superstitiousness of the Breelanders to say that it is a haunted place: of course, because there was a big battle long ago, something evil (Witch-King) resided there for some time, and so on. But I would imagine even if some evil spirits lived there, the Rangers would go and clean it up ASAP. Sounds nondúnedainish to me to leave the main city of their ancestors unhallowed, if they had no problems with cleansing it (unlike for example Morgul, which was occupied by armed force - but in the end, we know that Aragorn did the same, I imagine this would be a similar situation).

If they managed to cleanse Fornost why did the not cleanse the Barrowdowns? Aren't they much more holy and revered because they held the remains fo the Dunedain's ancient ancestors.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

I suppose there were also graves of some Dúnedain in Fornost, but mainly, it was an entire city. The Downs were, well, just downs But the main point is, I am saying even if Fornost was haunted. I believe it actually was not, that it was only superstitiousness of the Breelanders to think it haunted. Just imagine it: a large, abandoned city in the midst of wilderness, and many graves of those who died in the Battle of Fornost a long time ago. It is only natural the village-folk would think such place haunted.

[Mithalwen]

I imagine that the Rangers used the ruins of Fornost rather like Weathertop, or even as the High Elves used Wood Hall ..not maybe as a permanently occupied base but as a meeting place, where they could leave messages and maybe basic supplies (remember the stock of kindling at Amon Sul). Even for a people as resourceful as the Dunedain, this kind of thing is useful - and as has been pointed out it is handy for the Shire - rather closer than the Havens which is the nearest permanent settlement where the Rangers would have been actually welcome. And of course as a trade route used by dwarves as well the route to the havens would be much less discreet.

The place's reputation for "hauntedness" would have been a bonus for them to prevent outsiders meddling in what was a long term covert operation of protecting the Shire.

[Lord Halsar]

Perhaps the dunedain used Fornost as a temporary bunker or gathering point in case, say, a large amount of wargs or orcs or something were seen about eriador.

it may yet still have been able to keep something out. consider it.

[Snowdog]

Fornost was pretty much rubble after it was sacked by the armies of Angmar in 1974. But the thought of secret places among the ruins where the Rangers would go is indeed intriguing.

The city in the north I'm curious about is Annuminas, which was simply abandoned sometime in the first millenium of the third age. Instead of being destroyed by war, it would have merely been reclaimed by the elements.

[Lord Halsar]

You have a good point there. and the rangers of Eriador were clever men indeed.
if there were any hidden sanctuaries or hideouts around, they would find them.
also, if anyone would know about what was scattered and still usable out there, it would have been them.

[Boo Radley]

I never really thought of the area as being haunted, per se, but I felt that perhaps, due to the huge battle that had been fought there and the powers that must have been unleashed, there might be some kind of residual psychic effect, not unlike fallout.
And maybe, anyone who traveled there would have a feeling of growing disquiet or a general uneasiness as long as they stayed there.
You know... a constant need to look over your shoulder. That kind of thing.

I could be way off base on this.

[CSteefel]

But I am not completely clear why the Rangers would bother going up there if the place was completely deserted. I suppose they could be protecting against the possibility that Orcs and Wargs from the north would descend on the area, and then move to the south (Bree and the Shire).

But otherwise, why would the Rangers bother to visit a place that is completely deserted?? This is partly what sparked my interest in the topic...

[Arathul]

Annuminas were not abandoned when Angmar defeat the Dunedain like Fornost. it was abandoned before that and the king moved the capital to Fornost. I believe it was because of the increase threat from angmar. Annuminas, assumably less fortified then Fornost (it's a city, not a fortress) were exposed to an attack by Angmar forces. and so the king moved the capital to Fornost. The same thing happen in Gondor when the capital moved from Osgiliath to Minas Anor and the City over the great river were abandoned.

[goldfinger]

Well one reason is also that wolves from Angmar and beyond invaded Eriador during the Long Winter (I think) or the Fell Winter. Which were forever a threat in that region, and maybe also Trolls and Orcs went in to Eriador every now and then to find meat and plunder.

About the about the depopulation don't forget the Great Plague that killed hundreds of thousands, if not millions of people in Arnor, Gondor, the kingdom of Rhovanion, and elswhere.

Lastly about the "haunting". I kind of figured if there was a haunting it was by Wights like in the Burrow-downs, and just the simple fact that the land had been ravaged by Angmar it would have the eerie/evil feeling about it like the Dead Marshes, the Paths of the Dead, and Moria.

[Snowdog]

Originally Posted by Arathul

Annuminas were not abandoned when Angmar defeat the Dunedain like Fornost. it was abandoned before that and the king moved the capital to Fornost. I believe it was because of the increase threat from angmar. Annuminas, assumably less fortified then Fornost (it's a city, not a fortress) were exposed to an attack by Angmar forces. and so the king moved the capital to Fornost. The same thing happen in Gondor when the capital moved from Osgiliath to Minas Anor and the City over the great river were abandoned.

Yer right. Thats why I said it was simply abandoned sometime in the first milenium of the third age. Exactly when it was abandoned is open to speculation but by the time if the split in the kingdom of Arnor in Third Age 861, it had been completely abandoned. Elrond mentions the city at the Council of Elrond, saying only that

'...after the war and slaughter of the Gladden Fields the Men of Westernesse were diminished, and their city of Annúminas beside Lake Evendim fell into ruin; and the heirs of Valandil removed and dwelt at Fornost...'

So by saying 'heirs' it could be anytime between Third Age 249 and 861.

[The Mouth of Sauron]

There must have been some sort of permanent settlement for the Rangers of the North at the end of the 3rd age .

40 or so rode south to join Aragorn, " all that could be gathered in haste " , so presumably a minimum of say 60 Rangers would have lived in the north . They obviously had womenfolk and children so a sizeable settlement must have been somewhere .

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by The Mouth of Sauron

There must have been some sort of permanent settlement for the Rangers of the North at the end of the 3rd age .

40 or so rode south to join Aragorn, " all that could be gathered in haste " , so presumably a minimum of say 60 Rangers would have lived in the north . They obviously had womenfolk and children so a sizeable settlement must have been somewhere .

As far as I know, Tolkien mentioned somewhere (Letters? Well, where else) that there was a "Ranger HQ" and settlement down there in the Angle between Mitheithel and Bruinen. Perhaps someone else could serve with an exact quotation?

[lindil]

JRRT mentions a 'hidden fastness' of the Rangers but it has been so long that I no longer recall if it was in HoME[12?] or Letters or? and the Legate's location is right on afaicr.


But it was a fairly big topic for a while, as prior there had been no info at all re: where the stayed, etc. Only Gilraen departing to 'back to her people' or somesuch in the 'tale of aragorn and arwen'.

[CSteefel]

Presumably this "hidden fastness" is not up north, since as pointed out by somebody, Elrond says that the Rangers go up north sometimes, which of course implies that they don't actually live there.

[Rumil]

This thread-

Rangers Thread

gives a link to Michael Martinez's website, which I think tells how the reference was found in JRRTs papers at Marquette,

Cheers All!

[Elmo]

Just a quick point of on the place of dwelling of the Rangers. In the Fellowship it states that sometimes the Rangers 'came down from the hills' to go about the land between Bree and Rivendell. Some Rangers could dwell there, they certainly spent most of their time on the hills. I'm guessing thats the hills north of Fornost.

[ArathornJax]

Some of what is below comes from me, but most is a summation of an article I found here: http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/tolkien/64660/1

I'll try to summarize it, but feel free to read the entire article.

I think one of the thing that gives insight to the Rangers is the comment that they were defending the Shire and Bree from many evil things. We know at the Ford of Sarn that they tried to defend it from the Ringwraiths, though they had to give way after suffering loses (Unfinished Tales). Later we know they are no longer defending the Shire or Bree because both suffer an intake of Saruman's ruffins, though Frodo at Amon Hem lets us know they were probably fighting orcs that were coming into Eriador (and thus may explain why Halbarad could only raise 30 in a short time to go south, not because there weren't more. We do know that Tolkien said they lived in the wilds east of Bree, indeed at the Angle due to a note now at Marquette University.

However, Rangers themselves may have been specific officers of the Lord that patroled the former kingdom of Arnor, now Eriador. Thus Aragorn's people were probably not wandering the wilds, they probably resided at the Angle and perhaps a few other locations, and numbered in the thousands (not 100's but like 3 to 5 thousand). Certainly the Rangers were a professional force of military men who patrolled near their home, and through Eriador to protect themselves and the inhabitants of Eriador.

So if Dunedain of the North lived at the Angle and a few other small settlements, who wandered? The Rangers being representatives of their Lord or Chief, were the wanderers. Why do this with Rangers? Probably because though they could no longer deal out justice and law, they could support local law and custom. Furthermore by maintaining a corp of Rangers, the Chieftons maintained their claim to the Lordship of Eriador, and thus their claim to royality. Why was this important? Because it was for told that one of their number would someday rise to great height, and that had to give them hope in the restoration of their kingdom.

This notion of the Chiefton claiming royal authority in the north is important with Aragorn. His titles as proclaimed by others always listed him first (or by himself as in front of Minis Tirith after the Battle of Pelannor Fields) is Chieifton of the Rangers of the North, and Captain of the West. This idea of Chiefton then shows that he has royal authority and has led a military force, and Captain of the West shows he has now led Gondor's forces in victory (as the last King of Gondor who had been given the crown had also came to claim the throne after winning a miliatry victory. This set the precedent for Aragorn. So the title of Chiefton was important as was their role patroling or wandering over Eriador since it maintained the claim of royal authority by the Cheifton who led them.

So how many rangers were there? We could estimate that at Sarn Ford there were probably around 30 (since Boromir makes it clear that a company of his men could not hold the Black Riders back at Osgiliath). We could guess that this company may have been has large as 50 and given the task of patrolling the southern border of the Shire. From the Weathertop chapter we know that Rangers also operated in small groups as witnessed with the left firewood in the dell at Weathertop. These men may have been patrolling from the angle to the ruins at Deadmen's Dike to ensure protection of their communities. We would also have to assume that Rangers protected the road from the west to Rivendell and kept it open.

I am glad that I found this thread and the article that I have tried to summarize here. It really made me think. I don't think Eriador was full of tons of people, but I also don't think it was as empty as we make it. Not only did we have the Dunedain, but you had shrinking numbers of Elves, but Elves still wandered here and were present. Dwarves surely existed in Eriador due to the road and the Blue Mountains. We know there was Bree and The Shire, and probably other settlements of men. I have always been fascinated by the Rangers of the North since my first reading of the books some 31 or so years ago. I look forward to learning more!

[zxcvbn]

I always found it strange that apart from Bree-land and the Rangers there were no remnants of Arnor in the late Third Age. Surely othere Arnorian communities south of Bree-land would have survived the war with Angmar? I remember Tharbad was still occupied until a century or so before the War of the Ring.

[Elmo]

Well the trolls in the hobbit must have got their human food from somewhere!

[Snowdog]

So, anybody have any theories on the abandonment of Annuminas?

I think it was a gradual abandonment, with a final blow coming when the ruling seat was moved to Fornost. They were in need of a fortress as opposed to the picturesque city by the lakeshore. I doubt it would have been in one deciding move to abandon a thriving city.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Snowdog

So, anybody have any theories on the abandonment of Annuminas?

I think it was a gradual abandonment, with a final blow coming when the ruling seat was moved to Fornost. They were in need of a fortress as opposed to the picturesque city by the lakeshore. I doubt it would have been in one deciding move to abandon a thriving city.

I think it was a gradual happening, occurring for the reason you give, and also because many of the Dúnedain of Arthedain had perished in the long-term fighting. With so many gone, perhaps Annumínas was already falling into decay, even as Minas Tirith was later observed to be when Pippin went there with Gandalf.
I see another parallel with the abandonment of Osgiliath, the location of the King's House in Gondor, and the removal thereof to Minas Anor at about the same time.

[CSteefel]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

I think it was a gradual happening, occurring for the reason you give, and also because many of the Dúnedain of Arthedain had perished in the long-term fighting. With so many gone, perhaps Annumínas was already falling into decay, even as Minas Tirith was later observed to be when Pippin went there with Gandalf.
I see another parallel with the abandonment of Osgiliath, the location of the King's House in Gondor, and the removal thereof to Minas Anor at about the same time.

I think the comparison with Osgiliath is pretty good, and reinforces some of the comments above about the idea that Annuminas was probably not as easily defensible as Fornost.

Anyway, repeating myself to some extent, the comments that the "Rangers go there sometimes" suggests that they do NOT live to the north, but probably closer to the Angle as suggested elsewhere. I am not sure that 1,000 or more makes sense for the Rangers, given that they could only muster on the order of 30 or so men for the final battles. The largest contingent of Rangers seems to be somewhere in the vicinity of Sarn Ford, since the Unfinished Tales tells us that there was at least a modest force there who were driven off by the Nazgul.