Could a Dwarf melee with a Balrog?

[skytree]

Great Captains such as Glorfindel or Echtellion could melee with a Balrog how about Naugladur or Azaghal? The Dwarves of Nogrod sacked Menegroth and slew Thingol. Naugladur who slew Thingol would have slain Beren, one of the mightiest Edain but for the chance stumbling on a rock.

The mighty among the Dwarves probably surpass even Elven Captains and Edain Lords in physical strength and their endurance is legendary. While their agility lacks, their strength and endurance and ability to carry heavy armor gives them great protection. Remember the Helm of Hador? It was made for Dwarves and was heavy and massive and when given to Fingon, no elf was strong enough to wear it and it was gifted to Hador and only a mighty Edain like Hador or Turin could bear it. Beren's arms tired after hours in combat with Naugladur but Naugladur fought as if fresh. It seems that Dwarves got the short end of the stick in Tolkien lore(no pun intended) but it seems that in the few brief stories heralding their fighting prowess, Naugladur or Azaghal, they appear at least as mighty as the great among the Eldar or Edain.

[Pitchwife]

I guess range would be the crucial issue.
The Balrog of Moria is described as being "of man-shape maybe, yet greater". So the Balrog would have all the time in the world to hit the Dwarf with its whip or sword before the Dwarf could get close enough to make a dent.
Now, when you're facing an enemy much taller than yourself, I'd say the only viable tactic is trying to dodge their blows and closing in, aiming for the knees (like Merry did against the Witch-King) in order to cripple them and bring them down so you can chop them up at leisure. If the Dwarf was agile enough, he might stand a chance. Durin VI, however, obviously wasn't.
Which makes me wonder... When the Dwarves of Moria first stirred up Durin's Bane, it probably didn't have a host of Orcs and Trolls at its disposal as in the Moria chapters of LotR. How come the entire Dwarven host of Moria couldn't deal with a single Balrog in an organized attack? After all, the Dwarves of Belegost managed to drive Glaurung himself from the field in the Nirnaeth Arnoediad; and a fire-breathing dragon seems to me a much more formidable enemy than a Balrog. Looks like Dwarvish fighting prowess had deteriorated somewhat since the First Age...

[Tuor in Gondolin]

A redoubtable dwarf with a First Age mask and a
Third Age mithril coat would prove a stout foe.

[BGreg]

I don't think any dwarf was really a match for the Balrog. I mean, Balrog single-handedly killed two of the dwarven kings and banished the Longbeards out of their ancestral home. The dwarves fought Balrog but they couldn't beat him in any way.
I would expect the dwarves to throw everything they have at the greatest menace that appeared in Khazad-dum since the beginning of the world. So if they weren't able to defeat the Balrog... Maybe Durin's Bane was lurking behind the corners and killing single dwarves, so no fair battle occured. But even if it did, Balrog's horrid appearance combined with unthinkable anger for being woken up plus the fact that he is a Maiar spirit would certainly prove overwhelming for them dwarves. Even more so than the dragon, a lower being so to say. And we can say the dwarves had some experience fighting the dragons, but definitely none fighting balrogs.

This discussion had some interesting posts:
http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=1689

[The Might]

It sure can in LotR: Conquest, fighting Gimli costed me almost half of my hitpoints as a balrog in Moria.

No, but seriously now, I guess that if Elves could find them then well armoured Dwarves could too. Of course probably not with the same efficiency, but still it would be possible.

[Hookbill the Goomba]

Alone? Probably not. Most of those who fought Balrogs died. Even the ones who won.

I guess range would be the crucial issue.
The Balrog of Moria is described as being "of man-shape maybe, yet greater". So the Balrog would have all the time in the world to hit the Dwarf with its whip or sword before the Dwarf could get close enough to make a dent.

Not sure about this. As you said above, in The Battle Of Unnumbered Tears, the Dwarves managed to fend off Glaurung. Granted, he was not yet at his full stature, but that's still an achievement. If in a big enough group, I'd say the Dwarves could give a Balrog a run for its money. But then, Balrogs are probably mightier than Dragons. I present you with the coolest thing in all of Tolkien;

Originally Posted by Book of Lost Tales II, Chapter III, The Fall of Gondolin

Now then the plan that they made was to hold what they had won, while those serpants of bronze and with great feet for trampling climbed slowly over those of iron, and reaching the walls there opened a breach where-through the Balrogs might ride upon the dragons of flame;[...]

Although, if we're talking a steed-rider battle, I wouldn't fancy myself beating a horse in a fight to the death.

[Eönwë]

Though I think that it might be possible that if an elf lord could kill a balrog, then so could, a dwarf, I think the legendarium changed so that balrogs were more powerful later. If they still ahd been consistent, it would make Ecthelion more powerful than Gandalf (but maybe he is as Gandalf is clocked as a human), but that's another topic. So it's possible.

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

After all, the Dwarves of Belegost managed to drive Glaurung himself from the field in the Nirnaeth Arnoediad; and a fire-breathing dragon seems to me a much more formidable enemy than a Balrog.

I don't really agree with this point as I think that Balrogs would probably be far more powerful than dragons. They are Maiar, and they are also in a powerful form, unlike the Istari who have their power limited. Think about it- Bard killed a dragon. I don't think he would have been able to do so with a balrog. Turin also killed a dragon. Come to think of it, most dragons were killed by men, also think Scatha and Ancalagon (but he was half elf too). So, we must ask ourselves if dwarves were better fighters than men. I would say that generally they are, but not in the case of dragons (probably due to their size). But there are dragons we're talking about, which doesn't really further the discussion.

Are there any cases where Tolkien specifically talks about an Elf vs. Dwarf battle, because I think when they were attacking Thingol, and all of Menegroth (I think, my Silm knowledge is rusty, I should read it again) they had the element of surprise.

edit: x-posted with Hookbill. What a quote! WW habits die hard...

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by BGreg

Maybe Durin's Bane was lurking behind the corners and killing single dwarves, so no fair battle occured.

That and some of the posts on the 'Durin, Nain and the Balrog' thread (thanks for the link!) made me visualize the whole affair as a sort of 'Alien in Khazad-dûm': long scenes of single dwarves, brave but doomed, stalking through badly-lit corridors, nervously clutching their axes, waiting to be attacked by the Monster lurking in the dark in the moment they least expect it... and no Dwarven Ripley to save the day. Having too few women does have its drawbacks...

As for Balrogs or dragons being the more formidable enemy, I'm not sure. True, the Balrog probably was more powerful on the purely spiritual plane, with its aura of terror and all that; on the other hand, it was at least vaguely humanoid in its physical appearance.
When I hear 'dragon', however, the picture popping up before my mental eye is something like an armoured tank some 20 meters long with a flame-thrower at the front - certainly a creature no sane being would ever contemplate engaging in single combat. With a Balrog, the same idea doesn't appear as quite as absurd on first sight.

[The Mouth of Sauron]

If Sir Ian McKellen managed it I'm sure a heavily armed dwarf could too.

[Morthoron]

No, a dwarf could not melee a Balrog. If you look at all the one-on-one battles between Balrogs and their opposing combatants, there is a consistent measure of whom those combatants are. In every case presented, they have come from Aman: Feanor, Fingon, Ecthelion, Glorfindel and Gandalf. When Gandalf states to the rest of the Fellowship "This foes is beyond you," I believe he is not referring to any melee skill per se, but rather a spiritual or innate magical power that is required in battling a Balrog; hence, only those who have lived in Aman have made the effort, and even then have died after defeating a Balrog.

[skytree]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

No, a dwarf could not melee a Balrog. If you look at all the one-on-one battles between Balrogs and their opposing combatants, there is a consistent measure of whom those combatants are. In every case presented, they have come from Aman: Feanor, Fingon, Ecthelion, Glorfindel and Gandalf. When Gandalf states to the rest of the Fellowship "This foes is beyond you," I believe he is not referring to any melee skill per se, but rather a spiritual or innate magical power that is required in battling a Balrog; hence, only those who have lived in Aman have made the effort, and even then have died after defeating a Balrog.

So potentially, a Maedhros for example could fare better with a Balrog then he would against an Azaghal, Naugladur, Beren, Hurin, or Turin, because the fact he had seen the light of Aman would have not have the effect it would on a Balrog?

[Pitchwife]

No, he wouldn't. Morthoron's point seems to be that sheer fighting prowess, however great, is not enough when you're facing a Balrog; you've got to have an extra something in you that only those have who have seen the Light. Which may well be true - and anyway, it's a beautfiful idea.
It's not so much that your having been to Aman would affect the Balrog in any way, but the way it affects yourself - makes you less easily daunted by evil and terror, strengthens your courage and your trust in Eru, something along these lines. And all this, of course, would be true in any other fight as well.

So maybe the poor Dwarves never had a chance. But wait a sec... What if Gimli returned from Valinor and used a time machine?

[skytree]

Azaghal and the Dwarves of Belegost saved the Noldor of Middle Earth and prevented them from being wiped out by Glaurung. Azaghal displayed as much courage in his wounding and driving Glaurung from the field as Glorfindel facing down a Balrog. The level of courage would be the same and dwarven stubbornness simply replaces seeing the light of Aman. So that could only mean seeing the light provides some magical quality that makes a creature of terror vulnerable that wouldn't provide an advantage against a more natural foe, if say Turgon and Hurin were to face off.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by skytree

Azaghal and the Dwarves of Belegost saved the Noldor of Middle Earth and prevented them from being wiped out by Glaurung.

*sighs*

Yes, yes, yes...we are all aware of Azaghal and an 'army' of dwarves driving off, but not killing, an 'immature' Glaurung. The question from the original post has nothing to do with armies of this or that race, rather one combatant meleeing a Balrog.

As far as level of courage, that also is not really the main quality necessary in defeating a Balrog, is it? Gandalf felt the Balrog was beyond the strengths of Aragorn, Boromir, Gimli and Legolas, and I don't think you could question any of their courage. No, a Balrog crushed the dwarves in Moria, and it wasn't because the dwarves lacked courage, it was because they did not possess the inherent power (born of Valinor) necessary in counteracting a Balrog.

[skytree]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

*sighs*

Yes, yes, yes...we are all aware of Azaghal and an 'army' of dwarves driving off, but not killing, an 'immature' Glaurung. The question from the original post has nothing to do with armies of this or that race, rather one combatant meleeing a Balrog.

As far as level of courage, that also is not really the main quality necessary in defeating a Balrog, is it? Gandalf felt the Balrog was beyond the strengths of Aragorn, Boromir, Gimli and Legolas, and I don't think you could question any of their courage. No, a Balrog crushed the dwarves in Moria, and it wasn't because the dwarves lacked courage, it was because they did not possess the inherent power (born of Valinor) necessary in counteracting a Balrog.

Why does that power not counteract facing a powerful mortal creature as in Naugladur slaying Thingol or any Noldor that has been slain by Orc or Troll?

The light of Aman obviously does not provide any greater physical strength than the individual was born with, so one can only assume with your argument it simply removes any supernatural defense that a corrupted Maia like a Balrog may possess and makes them vulnerable to that individual.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by skytree

Why does that power not counteract facing a powerful mortal creature as in Naugladur slaying Thingol or any Noldor that has been slain by Orc or Troll?.

What makes the murder of Thingol such a courageous thing? He was surrounded by dwarves and backstabbed. Sorry, no glory points for you.

Originally Posted by skytree

The light of Aman obviously does not provide any greater physical strength than the individual was born with, so one can only assume with your argument it simply removes any supernatural defense that a corrupted Maia like a Balrog may possess and makes them vulnerable to that individual.

It is essentially the same 'essence' that caused the WitchKing to flee from Glorfindel on two occasions, but display no fear whatsoever of Earnur.

As far as the light of Aman, Tolkien is explicit when he says that the Eldar of Aman are as superior to the Sindar or Silvan elves as elves are to mortals. This may include an ability to withstand damage far in excess of Moriquendi, Men or Dwarves. We know that even a Sindar like Legolas was impervious to cold and snow, just think how superior a 1st Age Noldo newcome from Aman would be. Think how the remaining 1st Age Elves, like Galadriel or Glorfindel, are viewed in context with Lord of the Rings

[skytree]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

As far as the light of Aman, Tolkien is explicit when he says that the Eldar of Aman are as superior to the Sindar or Silvan elves as elves are to mortals. This may include an ability to withstand damage far in excess of Moriquendi, Men or Dwarves. We know that even a Sindar like Legolas was impervious to cold and snow, just think how superior a 1st Age Noldo newcome from Aman would be. Think how the remaining 1st Age Elves, like Galadriel or Glorfindel, are viewed in context with Lord of the Rings

I don't know if their ability to withstand damage is greater than Dwarves.

Tolkien also said in the Simarillion;

"stone-hard, stubborn, fast in friendship and in emnity; they endure hardship more heartily than all other speaking peoples."

"...Last of all the eastern force to stand firm were the Dwarves of Belegost, and thus they won renown. For the Naugrim withstood fire more hardily than either Elves or Men, and it was their custom moreover to wear great masks in battle hideous to look upon; and that stood them in good stead against the Dragons. And but for them Glaurung and his brood would have withered all that was left of the Noldor. But the Naugrim made a circle about him when he assailed them, and even his mighty armour was not full proof against the blows of their great axes; and when in his rage Glaurung turned and struck down Azaghal, Lord of Belegost, and crawled over him, with his last stroke Azaghal drove a knife into his belly, and so wounded him that he fled the field, and the beasts of Angband in dismay followed after him. Then the Dwarves raised up the body of Azaghal and bore it away, and with slow steps they walked behind singing a dirge in deep voices... and gave no heed more to their foes, and none dared stay them."

This was a Noldor host led by Maedhros and Fingon, powerful 1st age Noldor. Except for the Noldor in Gondolin with Turgon, the rest of the Noldor would have been wiped from Middle Earth in that battle, save for their Dwarves and their hardiness to withstand Glaurung. Let's not forget the Helm of Hador, it was dwarven made and was to massive for any elf to wear. It was giften to Fingon, and no elf in his kingdom was strong enough to wear it. Only very large powerful men such Hador or Turin had the strength to support its weight.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

I do think you have a point, Morthoron. Gandalf does say, "Here in Rivendell there live still some of his [Sauron's] chief foes: the Elven-wise, lords of the Eldar from beyond the furthest seas. They do not fear the Ringwraiths, for those who have dwelt in the Blessed Realm live at once in both worlds, and against both the Seen and the Unseen they have great power." Tolkien does indicate that those Elves who were born in the Bliss of Valinor and saw the light of the Two Trees are greater in power than those who did not. If they are counted among the chief foes of Sauron, a Maia greater than any of the Balrogs, then they would also have an edge against those lesser followers of Morgoth. I don't think that anyone denies the courage and physical prowess of the Dwarves, especially since Aule made them able to bear great hardships, but there must be some reason that the entire population of Khazad-dum could not defeat the Balrog when it was alone, without other forces to back it up. The common denominator among those who did succeed in defeating a Balrog (aside from dying in the process) does appear to be some kind of higher "magic" inherent in the being who opposes it. As valiant as the Dwarves might be, they simply didn't have that edge.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by skytree

This was a Noldor host led by Maedhros and Fingon, powerful 1st age Noldor. Except for the Noldor in Gondolin with Turgon, the rest of the Noldor would have been wiped from Middle Earth in that battle, save for their Dwarves and their hardiness to withstand Glaurung.

Amusingly, you seem to isolate Glaurung as the only peril the Noldor faced in that battle. Let's see, there were Balrogs (Gothmog and a friend ganged up on Fingon), an entire army of Men under Ulfang who betrayed them, countless orcs and hundreds of trolls (if Hurin axed more than 70 trolls, there had to be many more), and then along comes Glaurung as the cherry on top. The passage in the Sil also indicates that if the Easterlings had not betrayed the Noldor, they more than likely would have won the battle. *shrugs*

Interestingly, although the dwarves drove off the immature Glaurung, they never killed any dragon of note. They were driven in large numbers from Erebor by Smaug, and they relied on Fram, a Northman, to kill Scatha. Add to that being crushed in Moria by the Balrog, and their track record against fierce Morgothian opponents is rather spotty.

Very perceptive post, Ibrin, particularly since I agree with you.

[BGreg]

Interestingly, although the dwarves drove off the immature Glaurung, they never killed any dragon of note. They were driven in large numbers from Erebor by Smaug, and they relied on Fram, a Northman, to kill Scatha. Add to that being crushed in Moria by the Balrog, and their track record against fierce Morgothian opponents is rather spotty.

Yes, that is a part of the Tolkien lore i do not quite understand. Especially since, like skytree quotes the Sil :

For the Naugrim withstood fire more hardily than either Elves or Men, and it was their custom moreover to wear great masks in battle hideous to look upon; and that stood them in good stead against the Dragons.

It seems kinda contradictory then that the dwarves didn't fare well with the dragons. Maybe we just don't know anything of the many killed dragons during the war in the north, when most of the dwarves were banished from the Grey Mountains.
Hmmm... The dragons must have been very persistent, or I wouldn't be able to explain why dwarves lost almost every colony they had. Oh wait, I can't explain it

[Pitchwife]

The more I ponder this question, the more I realize that the crucial extra quality inherent in the High Elves of Aman was entirely spiritual and had very little to do with classic heroic virtues. Being nourished by the Undying Lands may have enhanced their physique, but that isn't the whole story, either; rather I think being instructed by the Valar and Maiar made the difference.
Obviously my last post didn't quite convey what I mean, but to borrow a metaphor from Christian mythology: they had something vaguely like the authority over demons that Christ gave his apostles - not in the sense that they could simply banish or exorcise a Balrog, but having great power against both the Seen and the Unseen they could withstand any servant of Morgoth on its own spiritual turf, trusting that divine blessing was on their side and that, even if they fell, evil could never prevail finally. Gandalf on the Bridge of Khazad-dûm is the perfect example.

However (I'm just being obstinate now), suppose a truly heroic Dwarf had crossed the Sea when the Trees were still alive, had seen the Light and sat at the feet of the Powers, and all that, would he be able to match the deeds of Ecthelion and Glorfindel? I dare say he would. But this is, of course, idle speculation.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

However (I'm just being obstinate now), suppose a truly heroic Dwarf had crossed the Sea when the Trees were still alive, had seen the Light and sat at the feet of the Powers, and all that, would he be able to match the deeds of Ecthelion and Glorfindel? I dare say he would. But this is, of course, idle speculation.

I don't know that simply going to Aman would be the same as having been born there (or in the Timeless Halls, in the case of Gandalf/Olorin), but thinking along those lines, I do wonder how, for instance, the original Durin -- who had been fashioned by Aule in the West, but was made to sleep until after the coming of Eru's Children -- would have fared. He and the other seven fathers of the Dwarves would have been "born" in Aman long before the destruction of the Trees. But did the actual sight of the Trees confer some special blessing, which they would not have had? Just odd ponderings....

About the Dwarves and their problems with dragons, I also wonder if Melkor intended them to be a particular nemesis to the Dwarves, sort of thumbing his nose in Aule's face. Just more odd thoughts....

[Hookbill the Goomba]

Originally Posted by Ibrîniðilpathânezel

About the Dwarves and their problems with dragons, I also wonder if Melkor intended them to be a particular nemesis to the Dwarves, sort of thumbing his nose in Aule's face. Just more odd thoughts....

I always thought this made the fight of the Dwarves of Belegost against Glaurung that bit more 'heroic' and of significance. It probably explains why Thorin was so intent on reclaiming the mountain by force; I suspect he thought that, if the Dwarves of Belegost could fight off the Father of Dragons, he could band together enough fellows to fight off this upstart.
Then again, Smaug is fully grown when he attacks the Lonely Mountain, Glaurung was still a little baby dragon. Aww.

[Boo Radley]

Could a dwarf melee with a Balrog?

Sure.

Could he win?

Not so much.

[Pitchwife]

This seems to sum it up nicely.

[CSteefel]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

As far as level of courage, that also is not really the main quality necessary in defeating a Balrog, is it? Gandalf felt the Balrog was beyond the strengths of Aragorn, Boromir, Gimli and Legolas, and I don't think you could question any of their courage. No, a Balrog crushed the dwarves in Moria, and it wasn't because the dwarves lacked courage, it was because they did not possess the inherent power (born of Valinor) necessary in counteracting a Balrog.

I think this is a good point. If you look at other cases where Dwarves or Men encountered Balrogs, there is often explicit mention of the great fear engendered by the encounter. In the case of Dain in the War of the Dwarves and Orcs, we hear that Dain comes down from the Gate after slaying Azog (Appendix A):

...it is said that when he came down from the Gate he looked grey in the face, as one who has felt great fear

and Dain goes on to explain further when he says to Thrain

But we will not enter Khazad-dum. You will not enter Khazad-dum. Only I have looked through the shadow of the Gate. Beyond the shadow it waits for you still: Durin's Bane. The world must change and some other power than ours must come before Durin's Folk walk again in Moria.

Of course, Dain's words are prophetic here, since it is Gandalf (a Maiar) who finally defeats the Balrog and rids Moria of it.

Similar thoughts come from Aragorn when he mentions in the Fellowship of the Ring that in fact he had passed once into Moria, through the Eastern Gate:

'I too once passed the Dimrill Gate,' said Aragorn quietly; 'but though I also came out again, the memory is very evil. I do not wish to enter Moria a second time.'

Clearly, there is something much more than the physical prowess (or stealth) of the Balrog here, so it presumably requires a being with spiritual powers well beyond those of either a Dwarf or a Man.

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Interestingly, although the dwarves drove off the immature Glaurung, they never killed any dragon of note.

That we know.

In a way it makes sense that the only ones we'd know about are the battles the dwarves lost. These are supposed to be elvish/human histories where dwarves are only encountered rarely. The most obvious dragon battles would be the ones where the dwarves had been driven from their homes and were thus more present around the elves/men. Their victories might not have filtered out beyond their own populations.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

It does however seem to be the case that a Dragon was essentially a terrestrial opponent, its powers entirely material. Horrendous, of course, and backed with a certain 'sorcerous' hypnotic power (a legendary attribute of serpents); but still just great beasts. Glaurung was killed by a man with a sword; Smaug by a man with a bow. Balrogs are another order of being entirely, creatures of enormous 'spiritual' or 'demonic' potency; when Gandalf said "This foe is beyond any of you," that included not only Gimli, but even Aragorn with Anduril. It plainly takes more than physical prowess to endure a Balrog- and even in those cases, there's no record of *anyone* who fought a Balrog and lived (except by reboot).

[Gordis]

I believe Dwarves had issues with all sorts of creatures of the Shadow-World.

Gimli's debilitating fear when seeing the Barlog can well be explained by his own words to Celeborn:

"Indeed I saw upon the bridge that which haunts our darkest dreams l saw Durin's Bane," said Gimli in a low voice, and dread was in his eyes. -"the Mirror of Galadriel"

But how explain Gimli's fear on the Paths of the Dead before the mere ghosts of Men? Remember, Gimly was more afraid than anyone else, while Legolas was not afraid at all.

I think it might be explained by the Dwarves' relation to the "other side", the World of Shadow (or more precisely, the absence of such relation).

The Calaquendi Elves lived in both words and "wielded great power" both in the Seen and the Unseen. The same likely applied to Maiar. Both races did not fear the nazgul or ghosts and could fight Balrogs.

Ordinary Elves, like Legolas, were able to get some glimpses of the "other side":

"The Dead are following,’ said Legolas. ‘I see shapes of Men and of horses, and pale banners like shreds of cloud, and spears like winter-thickets on a misty night" (The Passing of the Grey Company).

Even mere Men were able to perceive the Dead at times

Theoden: "Folk say that Dead Men out of the Dark Years guard the way and will suffer no living man to come to their hidden halls; but at whiles they may themselves be seen passing out of the door like shadows and down the stony road."( The Muster of Rohan).

Dunedain with their strain of Elven blood were likely able to see more and master their fear on the Paths better.

Not so with a Dwarf. The fear fell on Gimli the heaviest, but he saw nothing at all, only heard whispers. Perhaps it means that the Dwarves have no access whatsoever into the World of Shadow?

Note that even the 7 Rings were unable to turn the Dwarves invisible, to transport them into the Shadow-World:

Dwarves … proved tough and hard to tame; they ill endure the domination of others, and the thoughts of their hearts are hard to fathom, nor can they be turned to shadows. (Of the Rings of Power…)
The dwarves it is said had seven, but nothing could make them invisible.( “Of Gollum and the Ring” in The Return of the Shadow).

The Dwarves seemingly had no power in the Unseen. Perhaps that's why the creatures of the Shadow-world (including the Balrog, the nazgul and the ghosts) were so frightening for the Dwarves?

[BGreg]

That is possible. However, you're not mentioning the fact Legolas was also pretty scared when Balrog appeared, was he not?

'Ai! Ai!' wailed Legolas. 'A Balrog! A Balrog is come!'

And I don't think the Men behaved much different then Gimli did. Yes, they have seen the shadows (or maybe just perceived them), but were no less frightened.

Now, about this:

The dwarves it is said had seven, but nothing could make them invisible.

So the rings had no power over them. Isn't Tom Bombadil described in the same manner in the Elrond's Council? That makes me wonder. What would happen if a dwarf had found The Ring? Would he become invisible? Apparently not, if the quote above is to be trusted. How then did the dwarves not see a person wearing The Ring, like Bilbo? Would they not have the same power Tom Bombadil had?

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Gordis

The Dwarves seemingly had no power in the Unseen. Perhaps that's why the creatures of the Shadow-world (including the Balrog, the nazgul and the ghosts) were so frightening for the Dwarves?

This seems quite likely, as the dwarves were made as earthly beings by Aulë, and were only adopted as Children by Eru. They weren't made by him, so they didn't get any of the benefits of the other Children. As well as this, if it is true that they reincarnated, then they were probably more bound to the earth itself than elves. While the elves were bound to Arda completely, this also included the spirit world, and if Dwarves didn't go anywhere after they died and just reincarnated then it seems that they were actually stuck on "our side" and couldn't go into the "shadow/light world"

Originally Posted by BGreg

That is possible. However, you're not mentioning the fact Legolas was also pretty scared when Balrog appeared, was he not?

Well, he knew much more about them than the otherss, and if he was actually Laegolas of the First Age then he had experienced them first hand and seen what they could do.

Originally Posted by BGreg

So the rings had no power over them. Isn't Tom Bombadil described in the same manner in the Elrond's Council? That makes me wonder. What would happen if a dwarf had found The Ring? Would he become invisible? Apparently not, if the quote above is to be trusted. How then did the dwarves not see a person wearing The Ring, like Bilbo? Would they not have the same power Tom Bombadil had?

I don't think that he could be compared to Tom Bombadil as Tom Bombadil definately did have a lot of power against spirits. We all say what he did to the Wight, and what is a Barrow-Wight after all other than a spirit inhabiting old bones. And Tom Bombadil is immortal (or at least, didn't die so far and is still young in body). And in ME, as far as I know, all those who are don't (or can't) die, at least seem to have some internal strength, possibly on the "other side", whether for good or bad.
And Tom Bombadil isn't so "grim" and serious, is he?

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Originally posted by Eonwe
This seems quite likely, as the dwarves were made as earthly beings by Aulë, and were only adopted as Children by Eru. They weren't made by him, so they didn't get any of the benefits of the other Children.

I'm not entirely sure of this. For example, by accepting them Eru
gave them independent life, which Aule couldn't. And at least
the dwarves believe they will be with The Children of Iluvatar.

For they say that Aule the Maker, whom they call
Mahal, cares for them, and gathers them to Mandos in halls
set apart ; and that he declared to their Fathers of old that
Iluvatar will hallow them and give them a place among the
Children in the End. Then their part shall be to serve Aule in
the remaking of Arda after the Last Battle.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by BGreg

That is possible. However, you're not mentioning the fact Legolas was also pretty scared when Balrog appeared, was he not?

As for the Balrog, there was indeed a very good reason to be scared. But for Ganalf, the balrog would have killed them all in no time. Legolas explained his fear to Celeborn

:"It was a Balrog of Morgoth,' said Legolas; `of all elf-banes the most deadly, save the One who sits in the Dark Tower."

Legolas was no Calaquende Elf to have great power in the Unseen. (I don't believe there is enough evidence that Legolas lived in the First Age - in LOTR he is written as a relatively young elf). But still he didn't fear the ghosts of Men:

there was not a heart among them that did not quail, unless it were the heart of Legolas of the Elves, for whom the ghosts of Men have no terror. - "The Passing of the Grey company."

Originally Posted by BGreg

And I don't think the Men behaved much different then Gimli did. Yes, they have seen the shadows (or maybe just perceived them), but were no less frightened.

The interesting thing is that Men were far less frightened of the Balrog that Legolas or Gimli were. Aragorn and Boromir firmly held their ground, clenching their weapons. Boromir blew his horn and was the last to retreat. Even the hobbits felt more or less OK. Legolas and Gimli, in contrast, were incapacitated by fear.
As for the Paths of the Dead, Gimli felt far worse fear than the Dunedain rangers:

Then Aragorn led the way, and such was the strength of his will in that hour that all the Dúnedain and their horses followed him. [...] Legolas passed in. And there stood Gimli the Dwarf left all alone.
His knees shook, and he was wroth with himself. ‘Here is a thing unheard of!’ he said. ‘An Elf will go underground and a Dwarf dare not!’ With that he plunged in. But it seemed to him that he dragged his feet like lead over the threshold; and at once a blindness came upon him, even upon Gimli Glóin’s son who had walked unafraid in many deep places of the world.

Originally Posted by BGreg

So the rings had no power over them. Isn't Tom Bombadil described in the same manner in the Elrond's Council? That makes me wonder. What would happen if a dwarf had found The Ring? Would he become invisible? Apparently not, if the quote above is to be trusted. How then did the dwarves not see a person wearing The Ring, like Bilbo? Would they not have the same power Tom Bombadil had?

The rings did have power over the Dwarves - the dwarves couldn't turn invisible, yes, but they used the rings to gain wealth. Mad dying Thrain found in the pits of Dol-Guldur had forgotten his name, his people, everything but his Ring - that implies that the Ring had a very strong hold on his mind.

Tom, on the other hand, was not affected by the Ring at all. Still when Frodo put on the Ring in Tom's house, Tom was able to see him quite clearly - to see him in the Spirit World and that without wearing the ring or turning invisible himself. Thus Tom probably lived in both words, like Calaquendi elves.

The Dwarves were unable to see Bilbo wearing the Ring, as you have mentioned. Unlike Tom, they had no access into the Spirit world.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

When Elrond is deciding on the makeup of the Company, he rejects including "a great Elf-lord like Gorfindel." Had Legolas of Mirkwood been the same as Laegolas lord of Gondolin a Noldorin Exile from Valinor, surely he would have qualified! (according to the conception operative at the time the Fall of Gondolin (and indeed the Lord of the Rings) was written, its inhabitants were entirely of the Noldoli).

Moreover, Legolas couldn't have been the son of Thranduil and at the same time Laegolas of Gondolin: Thranduil was a Sinda of Doriath, with no connection to the Hidden City.

This is just Tolkien borrowing a pre-existing name, something he did not only with Men of Gondor, but with Elves as well, e.g. Rumil of Lorien who can hardly be the Sage of Tirion!

In fact he as much as admits that he did the same with Glorfindel (although in an early LR note he wrote "Glorfindel tells of his youth in Gondolin).

[BGreg]

Originally Posted by Gordis
The interesting thing is that Men were far less frightened of the Balrog that Legolas or Gimli were. Aragorn and Boromir firmly held their ground, clenching their weapons. Boromir blew his horn and was the last to retreat. Even the hobbits felt more or less OK. Legolas and Gimli, in contrast, were incapacitated by fear.

Actually, I was talking about the ordinary Men of Rohan and Gondor, who were afraid of the ghosts on Paths of the Dead. Not Aragorn and Boromir. Considering them, everything you said is true. They were very valiant in face of a frightening foe and stood their ground, even trying to charge at the Balrog after he overwhelmed Gandalf. Perhaps they were not completely aware of Balrog's strength?

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by BGreg

Actually, I was talking about the ordinary Men of Rohan and Gondor, who were afraid of the ghosts on Paths of the Dead. Not Aragorn and Boromir. Considering them, everything you said is true. They were very valiant in face of a frightening foe and stood their ground, even trying to charge at the Balrog after he overwhelmed Gandalf. Perhaps they were not completely aware of Balrog's strength?

Boromir indeed probably heard nothing about balrogs. But Aragorn (considering his education in Rivendell) would probably know more about Balrogs than a Sinda-Silvan Elf Legolas. Aragorn could have even heard Glorfindel telling first-hand stories. The fall of Gondolin was part of Aragorn's family history, after all. So Aragorn had all reasons to be as frightened as Legolas - but he wasn't.

I think Men felt only rational fear, while the fear of the Elf and the Dwarf could have had some additional components to it as well.

The Elf probably saw clearly how terrible Balrog looked in the Spirit world: Demon unvieled.
The Dwarf, as I said, would see nothing but the shadow and flame, but felt greatly frightened by any creature of the spirit world. He wouldn't be able to tell who is more fearsome: a balrog, a nazgul or a ghost - in fact he mixes them. Note that in the chapter "The Great River" Gimli is unable to tell a nazgul from a balrog:

`But I am glad that the shadow came no nearer. I liked it not at all. Too much it reminded me of the shadow in Moria – the shadow of the Balrog,' he ended in a whisper.

Frodo, with his acquired insight into the Spirit World: a legacy of the Morgul wound, is able to correct him:

'It was not a Balrog,' said Frodo, still shivering with the chill that had come upon him. 'It was something colder. I think it was –' Then he paused and fell silent. [...] – No, I will not say

But he did guess correctly, I bet.

[CSteefel]

Originally Posted by Gordis

Frodo, with his acquired insight into the Spirit World: a legacy of the Morgul wound, is able to correct him:

Or simply that he had been pursued by the Nazgul across the lengths of Eriador--I suspect this is more the reason than any general insight into the Spirit World.

Also, I am not so sure that Aragorn felt no fear in the face of the Balrog. As I quoted above, he makes specific mention about having entered Moria before and not wanting to experience that again. But Aragorn in any case, through the sheer power of his will, is able to overcome these fears that prey on all mortal men, as we see in the Paths of the Dead.

[BGreg]

'He cannot stand alone!' cried Aragorn suddenly and ran back. along the bridge. 'Elendil!' he shouted. 'I am with you, Gandalf!' 'Gondor!' cried Boromir and leaped after him.

Well, if Aragorn was scared, he certainly didn't show it. Charging at the Balrog like that... truly heroic.

[CSteefel]

Originally Posted by BGreg

Well, if Aragorn was scared, he certainly didn't show it. Charging at the Balrog like that... truly heroic.

Well, to quote my own post again:

'I too once passed the Dimrill Gate,' said Aragorn quietly; 'but though I also came out again, the memory is very evil. I do not wish to enter Moria a second time.'

Fear, or the memory (and aversion to) evil, I don't know, but certainly it is not as if Aragorn had no problem with facing the Balrog.

My point was that he probably felt some level of fear when on the Paths of the Dead as well, since only the Elves (who are immortal) are free from that (it is not even an issue for them, same as the Nazgul have no effect on Glorfindel). But he overcame it by sheer force of will, just as Boromir did...

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by CSteefel

But he overcame it by sheer force of will, just as Boromir did...

Exactly; and isn't it overcoming the fear you do feel that makes an action truly heroic? I mean, there's nothing heroic in facing something you're not afraid of at all.

As for Gimli, walking on the Paths of the Dead probably was the bravest thing he did in his whole life - although, to be realistic, once he had entered them there was little else to do but going on; nevertheless, he didn't just lose his nerves and run off into the dark crazed with fear, as somebody else might well have done.

Generally, I find everything that has been posted about the Dwarves' weakness concerning the Otherworld quite convincing; seems to be a logical price they paid for their exceptional skill with the physical materials of Arda.