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Old 07-19-2020, 05:16 PM   #1
Rikae
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Tol-in-Gaurhoth CXVI: Spies in Cirith Ungol Planning Thread

“He's coming here, I tell you. You heard the bell. He got past the Watchers, and that's tark's work. He's on the stairs. And until he's off them, I'm not going down. Not if you were a Nazgul, I wouldn't. “

Roles:

Assorted ordinary orcs

3 spies (or 4 for a large village). When 2 spies are dead, they may PM each other at any time (but not the living spy/spies) and they gain the ability to use the Phial of Galadriel. This allows them to block one player's special ability each night, if said player has such an ability. The player will be notified that they were targeted, and the spies cannot choose the same player 2 nights in a row.

1 cobbler (“Gorbag”). Counts as, and is revealed upon death as, an ordo.

1 ranger. Protects one person per night, cannot protect the same person twice in a row.

1 illogical hunter. (orcs don't strike me as particularly logical). Kills whoever they have designated as their choice when they die, regardless of the manner of their death or the role of the target

The Two Watchers:
Seer. While alive, they can dream nightly to learn the role of one living player. The weaver and cobbler will appear to the seer as ordos.

Weaver.. Until they die, they are an ordo. They're initially told their role is ordo, and are revealed in their death narration as an ordo. After death, they can dream nightly to see whether two living players are on the same or opposite sides (to the weaver, the cobbler will appear on the same side as the spies).

Victory Conditions:

- Orcs win if they eliminate all spies
- Spies win if they equal the number of orcs with their own
- Gorbag wins if the spies win

The Threads:

The Game Thread:
Only living players (and active ghosts) may post. Players vote for one person to execute each day. In the event of a tie, both players go to the gallows (may revise this if the group is small). Players entirely absent from the game thread for two consecutive days will be modfired, unless they contact me with an explanation – I'm reasonable.

The Dead Thread:
Only dead players may read or post in this thread. Active ghosts may not read or post in the Dead Thread during the Day when they are haunting!
The dead may post in their thread during the Day and the Night.

If they choose, during the Night they may elect a ghost, who will return to the living thread the next Day. However, the dead may only elect two ghosts during the entire game, who must be different players. Dead players who wish not to elect a ghost on a given night may vote ++No ghost and any prospective ghost must receive more votes than there are "No ghost" votes for that Night (non-votes do not count). A ghost may post in the living thread for one Day, but can only speak in quotes taken from Tolkien's works of fiction, and other players are forbidden to give instructions to the ghost on what to say. Ghost posts can only include a Tolkien quote (and reference, appreciated but not required) - no emojis, quotes from other players, links, etc., and quotes must be at least one full sentence of 3+ words.

*I'm undecided whether the number of posts from a ghost should be limited or not. What do you think?

The dead orcs (including Gorbag) may also cast a collective vote during the Day which will count as a regular vote in the living thread. This will be revealed on the living thread at deadline.
The dead spies can cast their own collective vote during the day, which will also count as a regular vote in the living thread and be revealed at deadline. Which vote is which will not be revealed.

Voting:

Votes should be on a separate line, highlighted like so:

++Rikae

Votes are not retractable. Votes timestamped on the deadline will be counted, but those timestamped a minute later will not.

All players should set themselves to invisible on their user control panel, and make sure there is room in their inboxes.

For a deadline, I'm thinking 5 pm Eastern in the US, as in Nogrod's game, but open to input.

Players:

Loslote
Legate

Boromir88
Blind Guardian
Lalaith
Pitchwife
Sally
Nogrod
(?)
Thinlómien
Kath
Huinesoron
A Little Green

Last edited by Rikae; 09-04-2020 at 05:56 PM.
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Old 07-19-2020, 05:34 PM   #2
Loslote
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I am super excited for this, sign me up! The proposed deadline is perfect for me, but I can be flexible if you want to change it later on, too. I am a little concerned about two seers being too much power in the hands of the orcs, but I love the implementation of the ghost role.
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Old 07-19-2020, 05:38 PM   #3
Galadriel55
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Oooh! I really like the concept of 2 votes from the DT, from the goodies and the baddies. Also the "twice a game only" Ghost haunting. That would be a nice balance.

Sign me up with a question mark please. I will totally absolutely regret this, but if the village is not as big and noisy as in Nog's game I think I will go for it anyways.
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Old 07-19-2020, 07:51 PM   #4
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Yay! This looks awesome. Sign me up please
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Old 07-20-2020, 03:52 AM   #5
Legate of Amon Lanc
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First of all - I LOVE. THE. SETTING. Amazing, Rikae.

And secondly, love the rules. Especially all the DT shenaningans. I hope you are aware of the only downside that is you're setting yourself up for a logistical - or rather, reading - nightmare when you'll have to read through Dead Thread and double-check which vote is an Orc vote, a Spy vote, and a vote for a Ghost (I presume, anyway, that the votes would be differentiated for easier orientation by for example one saying ++Legate for Ghost or somesuch).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rikae View Post
*I'm undecided whether the number of posts from a ghost should be limited or not. What do you think?
I am not sure on this either. My first reaction was to say "limit it to something like 5", but then again, if the purpose is to have fun, it might exactly limit some players who would just enjoy posting lots of one-liner Tolkien quotes and spam people. I don't think that option should be taken away from anyone. Besides, it would not stand to the argument that passed when we debated this on the other thread, that someone might post as much content within half-a-page-long post as another might in ten short posts.

Btw, and is the Ghost allowed to quote? That is getting close to posting specific answers. (Btw, I also think the Ghost should be banned from posting sentences like "No, said Denethor" that might allow for nearly-direct communication.) On the other hand, if for example there is issue X being debated at some time of the Day when the Ghost is not present, and they would later wish to address that issue, the quotes might help... but then again, I guess that's where the creativity can come into play, and the Ghost may want to figure out a way to quote something that would signify what issue they are talking about.
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Old 07-20-2020, 07:35 AM   #6
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The problem I can foresee with the Ghost being allowed to quote is then people can get around the Don't Give Instructions rule by saying "I wish I knew X", or somesuch, and the Ghost would be able to give pretty direct replies. I think it's more fun if the Ghost has to make it clear what he is referring to if he wants to reply.

Is there a limit to how manh sentences the Ghost can put in one post? Can he string together sentences from different parts of the text in the same post? Also, I know I am seriously overthinking, but the alternative is overthinking during the game: can the Ghost use emojis? Because those can change how a sentence is read.


ETA: maybe for differentiating purposes spy votes on the DT can have %% instead of ++, or something.
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Old 07-20-2020, 07:57 AM   #7
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Still mulling over whether to sign up, but a quoting ghost can easily answer direct questions:

Quote:
Originally Posted by FotR: The Great River
'Yes.' said Legolas.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FotR: A Long-Expected Party
‘Well yes - and no.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FotR: The Shadow of the Past
‘No.
Not a problem if that's an intended part of the system, of course!

I think this looks really fun; just not sure if I've got the brain for it right now.

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Old 07-20-2020, 08:05 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Huinesoron View Post
Not a problem if that's an intended part of the system, of course!
What if the Ghost has a minimum number of words they need to include in their Tolkien quote? And if it's a part of a speech, maybe these words have to all be said (as opposed to, "'No,' said Sam, scratching his head" or something.
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Old 07-20-2020, 08:21 AM   #9
Rikae
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc View Post
And secondly, love the rules. Especially all the DT shenaningans. I hope you are aware of the only downside that is you're setting yourself up for a logistical - or rather, reading - nightmare when you'll have to read through Dead Thread and double-check which vote is an Orc vote, a Spy vote, and a vote for a Ghost (I presume, anyway, that the votes would be differentiated for easier orientation by for example one saying ++Legate for Ghost or somesuch).
Ghost votes will be at Night on the dead thread & regular votes during the day, so I don't think it'll be too bad (and spy votes will be 1-3 votes at most).


Quote:
Originally Posted by Legate
Btw, and is the Ghost allowed to quote? That is getting close to posting specific answers. (Btw, I also think the Ghost should be banned from posting sentences like "No, said Denethor" that might allow for nearly-direct communication.) On the other hand, if for example there is issue X being debated at some time of the Day when the Ghost is not present, and they would later wish to address that issue, the quotes might help... but then again, I guess that's where the creativity can come into play, and the Ghost may want to figure out a way to quote something that would signify what issue they are talking about.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
a quoting ghost can easily answer direct questions:
Quote:
Originally Posted by G55
The problem I can foresee with the Ghost being allowed to quote is then people can get around the Don't Give Instructions rule by saying "I wish I knew X", or somesuch, and the Ghost would be able to give pretty direct replies. I think it's more fun if the Ghost has to make it clear what he is referring to if he wants to reply.

Is there a limit to how manh sentences the Ghost can put in one post? Can he string together sentences from different parts of the text in the same post? Also, I know I am seriously overthinking, but the alternative is overthinking during the game: can the Ghost use emojis? Because those can change how a sentence is read.
Yeah, for these reasons I was thinking ghost posts could be only the Tolkien quote - no quotes from other players, no emojis, probably 1 sentence per post. That way if they want to respond to something directly, they have to find a sentence that indicates what, or post immediately after.

And since the game is probably leaning toward the orc villagers as is, what do you think about a three post maximum for a ghost, and 3 word minimum for a sentence? Too complicated? Or maybe four or five word minimum, no repeating sentences? Or the "first sentences of chapters only" rule that was discussed earlier? If the ghost got into the spirit of the thing, of course (no pun intended) we wouldn't need so many rules but we also need to "phantom proof". Hmm.

Legate, are you signing up?

Edit: rules updated

Last edited by Rikae; 07-20-2020 at 08:27 AM.
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Old 07-20-2020, 08:45 AM   #10
Legate of Amon Lanc
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rikae View Post
Ghost votes will be at Night on the dead thread & regular votes during the day, so I don't think it'll be too bad (and spy votes will be 1-3 votes at most).
Ah I see! Good, that clarifies things then.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Rikae View Post
Yeah, for these reasons I was thinking ghost posts could be only the Tolkien quote - no quotes from other players, no emojis, probably 1 sentence per post. That way if they want to respond to something directly, they have to find a sentence that indicates what, or post immediately after.
Isn't that too limiting? I thought that allowing the Ghost to post a longer quote (for instance a paragraph) wouldn't really hurt in any way (quite the contrary - the more text, the less clear the subject is, but the Ghost could get more creative).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rikae View Post
And since the game is probably leaning toward the orc villagers as is, what do you think about a three post maximum for a ghost, and 3 word minimum for a sentence? Too complicated? Or maybe four or five word minimum, no repeating sentences? Or the "first sentences of chapters only" rule that was discussed earlier? If the ghost got into the spirit of the thing, of course (no pun intended) we wouldn't need so many rules but we also need to "phantom proof". Hmm.

Legate, are you signing up?
Yes, I am! At least if there's reason to assume that this will finish before second half of August (when I'll be away).

I wouldn't worry that dramatically about "phantom proofing". We simply should all go into this with presuming that we won't abuse the rules, and play with that sort of intention ourselves.

As for the Ghost and limits otherwise - I think there could be something like the minimum limit you suggested. You could also easily make a rule that disallows the Ghost to use the words "yes" and "no" etc.

But the main burden simply should be on the players, assuming that they would play "fair".
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Old 07-20-2020, 08:57 AM   #11
Rikae
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc View Post
Isn't that too limiting? I thought that allowing the Ghost to post a longer quote (for instance a paragraph) wouldn't really hurt in any way (quite the contrary - the more text, the less clear the subject is, but the Ghost could get more creative).
Good point. Quoting an entire paragraph would be especially fun for the village to interpret (and baddies to misinterpret). I'd like to have that possibility there.

What I want to avoid is taking a bunch of little snippets ("yes", "no", "Boromir" "is" "naughty" or whatever), either within a post or in a bunch of consecutive posts. So perhaps: long Tolkien quotes are permitted, but they still must be a single quote?


Quote:
Yes, I am! At least if there's reason to assume that this will finish before second half of August (when I'll be away).
Yay! I think it should, unless signups are really slow.
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Old 07-20-2020, 09:03 AM   #12
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*officially signs up, too*
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Old 07-20-2020, 10:17 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rikae View Post
And since the game is probably leaning toward the orc villagers as is, what do you think about a three post maximum for a ghost, and 3 word minimum for a sentence? Too complicated? Or maybe four or five word minimum, no repeating sentences? Or the "first sentences of chapters only" rule that was discussed earlier? If the ghost got into the spirit of the thing, of course (no pun intended) we wouldn't need so many rules but we also need to "phantom proof". Hmm.
I would argue against the 3 post maximum rule, because that doesn't give the Ghost a chance to actually interact with the Living. I just imagine them having to watch the game development silently for entire Day, sitting on their post count, waiting for the moment when they need to use that post to redirect conversation. I think that if there will be a post limit at all, it should be more liberal.

I think 4-5 words minimum is a good cut off.

First sentences... or, how about first sentences of paragraphs? That opens the field a bit more, gets you digging through more text, is less predictable, but is less flexible than using any sentence at all. I'm not sure which I like better - having the "first sentence" rule or not having it.
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Old 07-20-2020, 12:09 PM   #14
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Add me too!

The deadline is also perfect for me as it comes before lunch and not during lunch like last time! I will actually be able to post at DL.

As for the Ghost, I just think that it's funny that if the Ghost were trying to say that I was a bad guy they could just quote all of the sections of the Sil that are in Blind Guardian's Nightfall in Middle Earth album and it would be clear that they're talking about me

Ignore since it was answered already:
Quote:
A ghost may post in the living thread for one Day, but can only speak in quotes taken from Tolkien's works of fiction, and other players are forbidden to give instructions to the ghost on what to say. Ghost posts can only include a Tolkien quote (and reference, appreciated but not required) - no emojis, quotes from other players, links, etc., and quotes must be at least one full sentence of 3+ words.
Only one Tolkien quote per post?
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Old 07-20-2020, 12:26 PM   #15
Rikae
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Welcome, Blind Guardian!

I haven't really made a final decision about the post lengths and numbers for ghosts, I want to get more input in case I'm missing something - but I do think one quote per post, at least if there's going to be a post limit (if not, there's no reason for it, as long as each quote is a complete one).
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Old 07-20-2020, 03:35 PM   #16
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Old 07-20-2020, 03:47 PM   #17
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*pledges soul & fealty to the lidless eye*
Love it.
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Old 07-21-2020, 03:31 PM   #18
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Heck yeah! Sign me up.
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Old 07-23-2020, 01:10 PM   #19
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Ok. Put me up with a questionmark.

I mean I really shouldn't as there's soon going to be a lot of stuff in my hands as the new semester comes nearer every day. But let's notch the number of players up a little to begin with.
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Old 07-24-2020, 07:47 PM   #20
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I was also hoping to do this before school started! I wonder if people are just busy or there's a problem with the setup. Too complicated?
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Old 07-27-2020, 01:23 PM   #21
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Palantir-Green

I haven't read the rules etc (oops), but I heard I should sign up rather sooner than later, so here I am. If it looks like the game will still go on in mid-August, I'll have to rethink though as we hopefully have a trip coming up (where we will have wifi, but it would be preferable not to spend the trip playing ww).
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Old 07-27-2020, 03:31 PM   #22
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I haven't read the rules etc (oops), but I heard I should sign up rather sooner than later, so here I am. If it looks like the game will still go on in mid-August, I'll have to rethink though as we hopefully have a trip coming up (where we will have wifi, but it would be preferable not to spend the trip playing ww).
Glad you could join!

Several people seem to be in the boat of needing to get started & finished sooner rather than later, so if anyone can think of someone to poke, please do!
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Old 07-28-2020, 07:13 AM   #23
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I will sign up if there's still time! Looks like an interesting set up.
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Old 07-30-2020, 12:52 PM   #24
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I'm thinking if we get maybe four more people we should be good to go.
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Old 07-30-2020, 03:52 PM   #25
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I'm thinking if we get maybe four more people we should be good to go.
Let's urge everyone then... I am afraid that if we don't get started soon, I will have to pull out
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Old 07-30-2020, 04:13 PM   #26
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All right; I can't promise prolific posting every Day, but I'll sign up.

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Old 08-02-2020, 06:28 PM   #27
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I would also like to start soon. My classes got moved from the 24th to the 12th.
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Old 08-03-2020, 02:38 PM   #28
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So, I've been trying to think of a way to simplify this and reduce the number of roles so it'll be fit for 12 people, but I don't think that's really possible. Do people want to just do a basic game? Keep waiting?
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Old 08-04-2020, 10:39 AM   #29
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I'd like to play, ideally before the end of August, I'm okay with whatever kind of game you'd like to run.
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Old 08-04-2020, 11:32 AM   #30
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Well well, I roam into the Downs for a stroll on wet afternoon and find that a game is afoot! How nice.
I will have time to play if you start in the next week or two, so sign me up. I will go with whatever rules are going, and I do like a dead thread!
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Old 08-04-2020, 12:48 PM   #31
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I’m ok with waiting but I see a few others would have to drop if it doesn’t start in a week?

I’ll poke morm and Eomer who were too busy for my game in June, but said August might clear up for them.
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Old 08-05-2020, 01:40 AM   #32
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Well I am afraid I will have to drop, because in about a week, I am going to be away, and then back at the beginning of September. So I will be able to play if the game gets started only then, or another game that goes at that time.
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Old 08-05-2020, 10:53 AM   #33
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Well I am afraid I will have to drop, because in about a week, I am going to be away, and then back at the beginning of September. So I will be able to play if the game gets started only then, or another game that goes at that time.
That may be the case. I've been trying to think of a way to trim down the number of roles, but 11 just isn't enough - I'll just leave this here and when we get at least 15, I'll go ahead with it (or wait a little longer, if a delay of a week or so will let more people play).
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Old 08-05-2020, 01:03 PM   #34
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I'd very much like to see your ideas in action, and I'm in no particular hurry about it. I'll probably be largely away from my computer in the second half of September (planning to take our mobile home for a trip, or several, and go hiking), but if anything starts before that I'm still game.
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Old 08-18-2020, 03:01 AM   #35
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I was sure I'd missed this game as I was away for a month and only just got back! I'd love to play if this is still happening
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Old 08-22-2020, 04:39 PM   #36
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Yay!
I think if we get one more, and Legate comes back, we should be good - if everyone signed up is still available!
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I was sure I'd missed this game as I was away for a month and only just got back! I'd love to play if this is still happening
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Old 08-22-2020, 07:15 PM   #37
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Yay!
I think if we get one more, and Legate comes back, we should be good - if everyone signed up is still available!
Unfortunately I don't think I can play anymore. I am approaching exam time and life is already quite saturated with commitments. Sadly I will have to drop out.

I really want to see the special roles in action though! I was really excited for this game.
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Old 09-02-2020, 01:47 AM   #38
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Well, some of us are slowly reemerging from oblivion. How is our situation now?
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