Did Denethor see Frodo captured in the Palantir?

[littlemanpoet]

It was pointed out in a book I'm reading that Denethor says something very suggestive that he "knew" that the Ring had fallen into enemy hands, and this was the reason for his despair.

Obviously, by this time he did know about the Ring, and surely he was peeking into the Palantir on a regular basis. But would he have seen Frodo captured? Would he have known to look? How much control did Sauron have over what Denethor saw? And if Denethor saw this, how is it that the Dark Lord did not?

[Boromir88]

Fascinating topic lmp You wouldn't happen to have the quote available would you? Certainly after discovering Faramir had let the hobbits (and the Ring) go, I can see a motivation for Denethor to seek information on them, and thus the possibility he had seen Frodo captured.

Several possibilities though to why Sauron did not find out about the Ring, if indeed Denethor had found Frodo via the palantir. One, I think is, because when Frodo was captured, he did not have the Ring, but Sam did. Therefor, even if Denethor saw this, I'm not sure how Sauron could have been tipped off the captured hobbit has a Ring. It may also explain why the Mouth believes the captive to be spies for Gondor. If Sauron discovered Denethor's snooping, it might have led him to believe "Oh, Denethor is checking in on the spies he sent in, well I have them captured now."

Also, as the UT notes, the palantiri were only a minor part of Sauron's plan, to weaken the leadership within Minas Tirith:

It must also be considered that the Stones were only a small item in Sauron's vast designs and operations: a means of dominating and deluding two of his opponents,...~Unfinished Tales: The Palantiri

I think the stones were far more important to Denethor's use, and reasons for his vast knowledge of basically everything happening within his realm, and outside it. So, there would probably be several times Denethor used his palantir, that Sauron may not have been aware of.

And as a final point, Denethor did inherit the right to use the stone, and his will was still very strong. Stronger then any of Sauron's servants, so it was Sauron himself who the UT notes was always trying to "wrench" the stone out of Denethor's control. And Denethor was pretty resilient:

Denethor could, after he had acquired the skill, learn much of the distant events by the use of the Anor-stone alone, and even after Sauron became aware of his operations he could still do so, as long as he retained the strength to control his Stone to his own purposes;...~ibid

I am still very interested if you can track down the reference that Denethor might have known, and seen Frodo was captured. I have not even considered this before, and it's really fascinating after all these years, you can still learn new insight and perspective.

[Galadriel55]

I second Boro. It's a neat point, and I'd love to know the actual reference. I think that Denethor did not have to check the palantir to believe that the hobbit was captured - Faramir told him that a) Frodo is a Halfling, not a warrior, who b) is about to just walk into Mordor, c) taking the path of the infamous Cirith Ungol. The chances of him getting through look like they are below zero (which makes us appreciate Sam's and Frodo's - but especially Sam's - deeds even more, though that is beside the point).

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Fascinating topic lmp You wouldn't happen to have the quote available would you? Certainly after discovering Faramir had let the hobbits (and the Ring) go, I can see a motivation for Denethor to seek information on them, and thus the possibility he had seen Frodo captured.

Let me add to the praise of the topic. It's an amazing thing about these books: no matter how many times you've read them, there always seems to be new questions to consider.

I would think the suggestive quotes are these after Faramir's wounding by the Nazgûl:

Then [Denethor] bade them make a bed in the chamber and lay Faramir upon it and depart. But he himself went up alone into the secret room under the summit of the Tower, and many who looked up thither at that time saw a pale light that gleamed and flickered from the narrow windows for a while, and then flashed and went out.

Soon afterward, Pippin noticed a marked change in Denethor, and the latter said this:

'Comfort me not with wizards!' said Denethor. 'The fool's hope has failed. The Enemy has found it, and now his power waxes; he sees our very thoughts, and all we do is ruinous'.

Now, The Tale of Years puts Frodo's capture in Cirith Ungol and Faramir's wounding on the same day, March 13th. However, Shagrat did not reach Barad-dûr carrying Frodo's items until the 17th. So I think Sauron certainly did not know anything about Frodo that could have had a connection with Denethor's madness.

My opinion is that Denethor cast his gaze upon Cirith Ungol (knowing from Faramir that Frodo had gone that way) and saw Frodo lying in the Tower. With the knowledge that Frodo had had the Ring, added to Faramir's condition, no wonder the guy went insane.

[littlemanpoet]

You have it right, Inziladun. Nice work. I never seem to have my books with me when I get online. So thanks.

So it appears (if I may use language so suggestive) that Tolkien covered his tracks on this one. Sauron apparently had so much else he was paying attention to, and did not consider how invaluable were the Palantiri, and to make matters worse (for Sauron that is), Denethor was strong enough of will that Sauron had to wrench the stone FROM him. I had not thought of it that way.

So it is indeed apparent that Sauron did NOT know that the captive in Cirith Ungol was indeed the Ringbearer. And here I thought that just maybe I'd found something by which Tolkien had not niggled enough. Silly me.

[littlemanpoet]

What got me going in the first place is apparently an error by Tom Shippey in J.R.R. Tolkien: Author of the Century, toward the end of his chapter on the mythic dimension, where he says,

The likelihood is that [Frodo captured and taken to Minas Morgul {sic}] is what Denethor has seen, in a vision controlled by Sauron.

So Shippey's wrong about Minas Morgul already, and apparently he's incorrect about Sauron's control. Hmm... is he also wrong about author of the century?

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Now, The Tale of Years puts Frodo's capture in Cirith Ungol and Faramir's wounding on the same day, March 13th. However, Shagrat did not reach Barad-dûr carrying Frodo's items until the 17th. So I think Sauron certainly did not know anything about Frodo that could have had a connection with Denethor's madness.

My opinion is that Denethor cast his gaze upon Cirith Ungol (knowing from Faramir that Frodo had gone that way) and saw Frodo lying in the Tower. With the knowledge that Frodo had had the Ring, added to Faramir's condition, no wonder the guy went insane.

What about the conversation between Gorbag and Shagrat right at the end of The choices of Master Samwise?

"And we'vestruck a bit of luck at last :got something that Lugburz wants.....no I don't know' said Gorbag's voice.'The messages go through quicker than anythong could fly as a rule. But I don't enquire how it's done. Safest not to..... about an hour ago .. A message came 'Nazgul uneasy. Spies feared on stairs. Douuble Vigilance' ..but my patrol wasn't ordered out for another day due to the Great Signal going up ,,, and then they couldn't get Lugburz to pay attention for a good while I'm told"

Shagrat didn't have to reach Barad Dur. Details were to be sent in advance by this undisclosed message system.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

What about the conversation between Gorbag and Shagrat right at the end of The choices of Master Samwise?

"And we'vestruck a bit of luck at last :got something that Lugburz wants.....no I don't know' said Gorbag's voice.'The messages go through quicker than anythong could fly as a rule. But I don't enquire how it's done. Safest not to..... about an hour ago .. A message came 'Nazgul uneasy. Spies feared on stairs. Douuble Vigilance' ..but my patrol wasn't ordered out for another day due to the Great Signal going up ,,, and then they couldn't get Lugburz to pay attention for a good while I'm told"

Shagrat didn't have to reach Barad Dur. Details were to be sent in advance by this undisclosed message system.

An interesting consideration.

To make sure I understand, are you suggesting that Sauron did send Denethor a message, perhaps with a vision of the captured "spy"? But for what purpose: merely to dishearten him, thinking indeed that Frodo was just on an important scouting mission for Gondor? Why would Sauron think that Denethor even needed such a spy anyway, since he knew Denethor to be in possession of a palantír himself?

[Belegorn]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

How much control did Sauron have over what Denethor saw? And if Denethor saw this, how is it that the Dark Lord did not?

I do not think the Stone would lie to him as Gandalf says the Stones of Seeing, "do not lie, and not even the Lord of Barad-dur can make them do so. He can, maybe, by his will choose what things shall be seen by weaker minds, or cause them to mistake the meaning of what they see." [RotK, p. 170] When Gandalf spoke of the Stone of the White Tower he said that the Stewards thought they only knew of it. But Gandalf knew they held it. Denethor used it, "as the peril of his realm grew... and was deceived: more than once, I guess, since Boromir departed... he saw nonetheless only those things which that Power permitted him to see... the vision of the great might of Mordor that was shown to him fed the despair of his heart until it overthrew his mind." [RotK, p. 145] I do not think anything he saw was false but he apparently did not get a complete picture of it and only saw what did not help his hope. Gandalf said that when Denethor was more wise he, "did not presume to use it, nor to challenge Sauron, knowing the limits of his own strength." [RotK, p. 145]

[littlemanpoet]

Well done Belegorn. This quote - from LotR - raises my issue back up again. As much as Tolkien may have tried to cover his tracks, have we a hole in the plot here? Or is there a reasonable/plausible explanation why Denethor could see Frodo as captive, knowing about the Ring, and Sauron not knowing about the Ring even while controlling what Denethor sees?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

Or is there a reasonable/plausible explanation why Denethor could see Frodo as captive, knowing about the Ring, and Sauron not knowing about the Ring even while controlling what Denethor sees?

To me that still seems the most likely. Logically, Cirith Ungol would appear to be an obvious choice for Denethor to view.
I go back to the question of why Sauron would have thought that the knowledge of Frodo's capture would have been of any special heartbreak to Denethor. From Sauron's own demonstrable actions, it seems clear that he really did not view Frodo as anyone but a spy. There were so many other things Sauron could have "allowed" Denethor to see in order to create despair: the marching of the Haradrim to Mordor; maybe legions of Orcs overshadowed by wingéd Nazgûl; the Black sails of the Corsairs. Why would Sauron bother with making Denethor look at one little hobbit?

Also, Pippin's use of the Orthanc-stone was only a little over a week before Denethor's "final straw" viewing, March 5th. Gandalf surmised that that event would cause Sauron to be preoccupied with Saruman in Isengard. Sauron would have known that the hobbit in Cirith Ungol could not possibly be Pippin, so I think Sauron might have been more likely to associate Frodo with whatever had happened to Saruman, rather than Denethor.

[littlemanpoet]

And maybe Sauron's control of Denethor's viewing amounts to "Only let him view my strongholds, my places of power, my actions that make it look bad for Gondor." Certainly don't show any weaknesses. Which brings a question: I wonder if Sauron believed himself to have any weaknesses, other than the absence of the Ring?

[Belegorn]

I think any weakness Sauron saw was tied into the Ring. He did not believe anyone could destroy the Ring and it was not destroyed voluntarily. Gollum fell into the pit and Frodo's will could not bring him to do so. So he was looking at it from the angle that his enemies would try to use the power of the Ring to overthrow him.