The Black Squirrel of Mirkwood. - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

narfforc · 10-15-2010, 01:09 AM

Apparently this animal is on the rise in The South and East of England. It was first sited in England around 1912. When Anborn first mentions them, I thought them to be another Tolkien creation (I was 11 at the time). I'd never seen or heard talk of them. They now seem to growing in population again, ironically around the same area that the Grey was introduced into England around the 1870's. So keep your eyes peeled, one day you may well be closer to Eryn Lasgalen than you think.

Boromir88 · 10-18-2010, 07:14 PM

My alma-mater's unofficial mascot is the Black Squirrel.

Story goes, a guy from the university seeking to run wild-life tests on black squirrels and the environment, went into Canada and brought back 10 of the black squirrels to Kent State, here in Ohio.

Long story short, they've taken over and exerted their dominance among the indigenous squirrels. They're all over my part of Ohio now.

We even have an Annual Black Squirrel Festival for them...it's kind of weird. The part of Wiki about the black squirrels driving out the native squirrels in Kent, is no joke. All the students who go there can tell you stories of the wars between the black and underground rebel grey squirrels.

narfforc · 10-19-2010, 09:09 AM

They are having the same effect here in England, however I don't feel sorry for the Grey, it has done enormous damage to the Red.

Morthoron · 10-19-2010, 01:51 PM

What a racially squirrelophobic thread this is!

Thinlómien · 10-19-2010, 01:52 PM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_squirrel

They are very cute though!

Nerwen · 10-20-2010, 08:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by narfforc

They are having the same effect here in England, however I don't feel sorry for the Grey, it has done enormous damage to the Red.

Might be a waste anyway– black squirrels are just greys with darker fur, apparently, not a separate species. So it's more like a hair colour becoming more common:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Some biologist in a BBC news article I just looked up

The rise of the black is the biggest change in squirrel demographics since the native reds almost disappeared 50 years ago from large parts of England.

This is not because black squirrels compete with greys in the way that greys compete with reds (the larger greys eat more, and carry a pox that is deadly to reds), but because the gene for black fur is dominant, just like the gene for brown eyes is dominant over blue in humans.

Incidentally– what a surprise– it seems the black fur gives a survival advantage in deep forests...

Galadriel55 · 10-20-2010, 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Incidentally– what a surprise– it seems the black fur gives a survival advantage in deep forests...

I live in the iddle of Toronto city, and black squirrels are more dominant then the grey ones here as well. I don't think that forests have to do a lot with it.

Also, red sqierrels have been dominant in quite a few places, including western Europe, a couple of decades ago. Red doesn't really fit for camouflage, so there has to be soething else.

P.S.: isn't this site supposed to be about Tolkien and not about the squirrel demographics?

Nerwen · 10-20-2010, 07:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

I live in the iddle of Toronto city, and black squirrels are more dominant then the grey ones here as well. I don't think that forests have to do a lot with it.

No, the point I'm making is, it's perfectly logical that the Mirkwood squirrels should be black. I don't think forests get deeper than that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

P.S.: isn't this site supposed to be about Tolkien and not about the squirrel demographics?

See above.

Also... you're not suggesting we're about to be visited by the chat... you-know-what?

How meta.

narfforc · 10-21-2010, 02:24 AM

I wonder what exposure Tolkien had to the Black Squirrel in his youth, as it was predominately in the South and East of England, was it anywhere else?

Bêthberry · 10-21-2010, 03:17 AM

I am so happy to hear that I cannot be held accountable for inadvertently transporting a black in my luggage and releasing it in the UK.

Black squirrels, like crows, have a bad rep in Lotr. We know that Tolkien had a fear of spiders from an early childhood incident in South Africa. Perhaps that mill in Sarehole harboured black squirrels?

narfforc · 10-21-2010, 04:38 AM

I don't think Tolkien include anything in his works without knowing what he was talking about. The Black Squirrel caused quite a fuss when it was first seen in 1912, the young 20yr old Tolkien would surely have heard of it. By the 1940's it had spread to the Cambridgeshire/Hertfordshire border, the wandering Tolkien may have seen it on his travels?

Galadriel55 · 10-21-2010, 05:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nerwen

No, the point I'm making is, it's perfectly logical that the Mirkwood squirrels should be black. I don't think forests get deeper than that.

That's true. Except for maybe Fangorn or the Old Forest, but they don't seem to have a lot of animals.

[/QUOTE]Also... you're not suggesting we're about to be visited by the chat... you-know-what?

How meta.[/QUOTE]

I really don't get what you're talking about. If you mean that I've reported this thread, then no, I didn't. I don't even know how to do this yet.

narfforc · 10-21-2010, 07:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

P.S.: isn't this site supposed to be about Tolkien and not about the squirrel demographics?

It is about Tolkien, and where he got the idea of Black Squirrels to populate Mirkwood with, why not Black Rabbits or Black Foxes. It is to with Anborn and his desciption of Gollum, who scales trees and walls like a squirrel.

Nerwen · 10-21-2010, 07:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Me

Also... you're not suggesting we're about to be visited by the chat... you-know-what?

How meta.

I really don't get what you're talking about. If you mean that I've reported this thread, then no, I didn't. I don't even know how to do this yet.

These forums are haunted by a vicious monster known as the Chat Squirrel (or Skewrl, to some). Beware!

Estelyn Telcontar · 10-21-2010, 10:10 AM

Two thoughts I'd like to share:

1. Tolkien needn't have seen or even known of real black squirrels to write about them - this is fantasy, remember, and the forest that went dark would naturally have animals that went dark as well. Weren't there black butterflies too?

Yes, I just looked Mirkwood up in the Hobbit, and Tolkien describes

Quote:

a kind of "purple emperor", a butterfly that loves the tops of oak-woods, but these were not purple at all, they were a dark dark velvety black without any marking to be seen.

So if he could change the colour of butterflies to suit their surroundings, he could easily do the same with squirrels.

2. The "skwerlz" are various warning pictures that I have used when necessary to remind posters of proper forum behaviour. Since members have been quite good about staying on topic for the most part, I haven't needed any recently. Here they are, just for your enjoyment:

Estelyn Telcontar · 10-21-2010, 10:11 AM

...and here are the rest:

These delightful images were created by The Barrow-Wight Himself.

Pitchwife · 10-21-2010, 12:20 PM

ad 1. Oh, but there actually are black butterflies; see e.g. here. No idea though whether any of these occurred in Britain in Tolkien's lifetime.

ad 2. Oh yes, the Green Squirrel, fiercest of all variants, feared by the forces of darkness. When Mirkwood was cleansed after the War of the Ring and became Eryn Lasgalen again, it repopulated its ancient haunts in the forest and drove the Black ones out, scattering them all over the rest of Middle-earth... or so the rumour goes

.

Guinevere · 10-21-2010, 02:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Black squirrels, like crows, have a bad rep in Lotr. We know that Tolkien had a fear of spiders from an early childhood incident in South Africa. Perhaps that mill in Sarehole harboured black squirrels?

Well, it's not the topic of this thread, but I'd like to correct the statement about Tolkien's supposed arachnophobia:

Quote:

from letter #163
... the way was guarded by a Spider. And if that has anything to do with my being stung by a tarantula when a small child, people are welcome to the notion (supposing the improbable, that any one is interested). I can only say that I remember nothing about it, should not know it if I had not been told; and I do not dislike spiders particularly, and have no urge to kill them. I usually rescue those whom I find in the bath!

I found the spider rescue particularly endearing.(I do the same, with the help of a glass) That's why I remembered this quote.

Faramir Jones · 10-23-2010, 08:50 AM

In The Guardian newspaper of Sunday, 11th May 2008, there's a squirrel recipe:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandsty...s.foodanddrink

Admittedly, these are grey squirrels, which one commentator said taste like wild boar.

Bêthberry · 10-23-2010, 09:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guinevere

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Black squirrels, like crows, have a bad rep in Lotr. We know that Tolkien had a fear of spiders from an early childhood incident in South Africa. Perhaps that mill in Sarehole harboured black squirrels?

Well, it's not the topic of this thread, but I'd like to correct the statement about Tolkien's supposed arachnophobia:

Quote:

Originally Posted by letter #163

... the way was guarded by a Spider. And if that has anything to do with my being stung by a tarantula when a small child, people are welcome to the notion (supposing the improbable, that any one is interested). I can only say that I remember nothing about it, should not know it if I had not been told; and I do not dislike spiders particularly, and have no urge to kill them. I usually rescue those whom I find in the bath!

I found the spider rescue particularly endearing.(I do the same, with the help of a glass) That's why I remembered this quote.

Even writers can be in denial sometimes, Guinevere.

10-18-2010, 07:14 PM	#2
Boromir88 Laconic Loreman Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: USA Posts: 7,507	My alma-mater's unofficial mascot is the Black Squirrel. Story goes, a guy from the university seeking to run wild-life tests on black squirrels and the environment, went into Canada and brought back 10 of the black squirrels to Kent State, here in Ohio. Long story short, they've taken over and exerted their dominance among the indigenous squirrels. They're all over my part of Ohio now. We even have an Annual Black Squirrel Festival for them...it's kind of weird. The part of Wiki about the black squirrels driving out the native squirrels in Kent, is no joke. All the students who go there can tell you stories of the wars between the black and underground rebel grey squirrels. __________________ Fenris Penguin Last edited by Boromir88; 10-18-2010 at 07:22 PM.

10-19-2010, 09:09 AM	#3
narfforc Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Muddy-earth Posts: 1,297	They are having the same effect here in England, however I don't feel sorry for the Grey, it has done enormous damage to the Red. __________________ [B]THE LORD OF THE GRINS:THE ONE PARODY....A PARODY BETTER THAN THE RINGS OF POWER.

10-19-2010, 01:51 PM	#4
Morthoron Curmudgeonly Wordwraith Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Ensconced in curmudgeonly pursuits Posts: 2,501	What a racially squirrelophobic thread this is! __________________ And your little sister's immaculate virginity wings away on the bony shoulders of a young horse named George who stole surreptitiously into her geography revision.

10-19-2010, 01:52 PM	#5
Thinlómien Shady She-Penguin Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: In a far land beyond the Sea Posts: 8,093	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_squirrel They are very cute though! __________________ Like the stars chase the sun, over the glowing hill I will conquer Blood is running deep, some things never sleep Double Fenris

10-21-2010, 02:24 AM	#9
narfforc Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Muddy-earth Posts: 1,297	I wonder what exposure Tolkien had to the Black Squirrel in his youth, as it was predominately in the South and East of England, was it anywhere else? __________________ [B]THE LORD OF THE GRINS:THE ONE PARODY....A PARODY BETTER THAN THE RINGS OF POWER.

10-15-2010, 01:09 AM	#1
narfforc Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Muddy-earth Posts: 1,297	The Black Squirrel of Mirkwood. Apparently this animal is on the rise in The South and East of England. It was first sited in England around 1912. When Anborn first mentions them, I thought them to be another Tolkien creation (I was 11 at the time). I'd never seen or heard talk of them. They now seem to growing in population again, ironically around the same area that the Grey was introduced into England around the 1870's. So keep your eyes peeled, one day you may well be closer to Eryn Lasgalen than you think. __________________ [B]THE LORD OF THE GRINS:THE ONE PARODY....A PARODY BETTER THAN THE RINGS OF POWER.

10-21-2010, 03:17 AM	#10
Bêthberry Cryptic Aura Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 5,977	I am so happy to hear that I cannot be held accountable for inadvertently transporting a black in my luggage and releasing it in the UK. Black squirrels, like crows, have a bad rep in Lotr. We know that Tolkien had a fear of spiders from an early childhood incident in South Africa. Perhaps that mill in Sarehole harboured black squirrels? __________________ I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away.

10-21-2010, 04:38 AM	#11
narfforc Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Muddy-earth Posts: 1,297	I don't think Tolkien include anything in his works without knowing what he was talking about. The Black Squirrel caused quite a fuss when it was first seen in 1912, the young 20yr old Tolkien would surely have heard of it. By the 1940's it had spread to the Cambridgeshire/Hertfordshire border, the wandering Tolkien may have seen it on his travels? __________________ [B]THE LORD OF THE GRINS:THE ONE PARODY....A PARODY BETTER THAN THE RINGS OF POWER.

10-21-2010, 10:11 AM	#16
Estelyn Telcontar Princess of Skwerlz Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles) Posts: 7,499	...and here are the rest: These delightful images were created by The Barrow-Wight Himself. __________________ 'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...'

10-21-2010, 12:20 PM	#17
Pitchwife Wight of the Old Forest Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Unattended on the railway station, in the litter at the dancehall Posts: 3,329	ad 1. Oh, but there actually are black butterflies; see e.g. here. No idea though whether any of these occurred in Britain in Tolkien's lifetime. ad 2. Oh yes, the Green Squirrel, fiercest of all variants, feared by the forces of darkness. When Mirkwood was cleansed after the War of the Ring and became Eryn Lasgalen again, it repopulated its ancient haunts in the forest and drove the Black ones out, scattering them all over the rest of Middle-earth... or so the rumour goes. __________________ Und aus dem Erebos kamen viele seelen herauf der abgeschiedenen toten.- Homer, Odyssey, Canto XI

10-23-2010, 08:50 AM	#19
Faramir Jones Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Lonely Isle Posts: 706	Squirrel recipe In The Guardian newspaper of Sunday, 11th May 2008, there's a squirrel recipe: http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandsty...s.foodanddrink Admittedly, these are grey squirrels, which one commentator said taste like wild boar.