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06-25-2007, 04:04 PM | #281 | |||
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06-25-2007, 04:52 PM | #282 | |
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06-25-2007, 06:32 PM | #283 | ||
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Now, if you will excuse me, I'm far too busy keeping up with the Joneses next door to post any more just now.
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06-25-2007, 09:00 PM | #284 | |
Curmudgeonly Wordwraith
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Cannot...help...myself...must...reply...BAH! You are again incorrect. Totally. Utterly. By your reasoning, Frodo and Bilbo would certainly use the term 'lunch' because the Bagginses (Bilbo and Frodo specifically) are indeed of the same social caste as the Brandybucks and Tooks. They are 'respectable' hobbits, and their speech pathology bears it out (there are neither colorful rustic colloquialisms, nor malaprops, nor droppin' o' the 'aitches in either Frodo or Bilbo's speech). They're family is married into both the Took and Brandybuck families (first cousins, I believe), and are most certainly part of the squirearchy of the Shire. Frodo and Bilbo bear all the earmarks of English Country gentlemen, and they certainly do not stoop to manual labor (which is what the Gaffer and Sam are for). The entire relationship between Frodo and 'his' Sam bears that out. Sam is the batman or valet to Frodo's Subaltern, a point which cannot be argued because Tolkien refers to it himself. By your convoluted miasma of rambling rhetoric, the term 'lunch' is then totally acceptable for the narrator of the story because Frodo and Bilbo wrote the bulk of the Book of Westmarch. And please supply a direct quote from any Hobbit character of the lower classes that uses the term 'dinner' for a midday meal. You won't find it, and neither will you find a reference to 'lunch' or 'supper'. The absence of something does not prove you are correct. The only reference to a lower class Hobbit using the term 'dinner' is Old Noakes and that was concerning a meal in the moonlight. You continue to make glaring errors due mostly to your class biases. And now for something completely different: Is the BD Fan-fiction forum for all intents and purposes dead? I posted an offering there starting a week ago, and have not received one scathing review regarding my impudence as an American to dare to add my scant and colonial abilities to the Middle-earth cosmology. Granted, since the tale does not concern hobbits there are no mentions of lunch or dinner, nevertheless (and harkening back to the original premise of the thread), I am wondering if such work that is not wedded to an RPG format is welcomed here any longer. Oh, and the story can be found here... http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin...107&p=1#000001 ...your comments and critiques are welcome.
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06-25-2007, 09:33 PM | #285 | ||
Spectre of Capitalism
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How can I, as an American (i.e. one-who-speaks-only-one-language), have any assurance that the Russian who has read LOTR in only his native tongue knows the subtleties of the English version? I have to trust that the translator has made a good faith effort to become familiar enough with the work so as to render a sound and faithful translation. But to render near-verbatim English-to-(insert favorite language here) translations would mean that nothing short of an annotated version in each language, explaining the context in terms understandable to each varied culture, would suffice to convey the meanings as Tolkien intended. I hate to keep using Shakespeare as an example, but how many moderately educated people have started to read Hamlet or Richard III, and given up after the first few scenes because the language is so archaic? Unless you annotate the text to bring the meaning up-to-date, so to speak, the brilliance of the Bard will be lost to the masses. What am I saying by all this? That cultural trappings are not the substance. Yes, they are important, even critical, to emulating the style of an author, and even more so playing in his sandbox. But I submit that I have read stories (the aforementioned "The Hobbits" is well worth a read, though I doubt that purists will find it anything other than rubbish) that, for me, were an extension of that world that JRRT first opened for me. Do I confuse them with the originals? Not at all. But they are enjoyable reads for me, and the authors have worked hard and done their best, and I like them. (aside: I've also read much fan trash to find the few treasures...that makes them all the more special.) Feel free to disagree, and no hard feelings if you do. I have to feel a bit sad, though, for those for whom the only window to Middle Earth is forever closed. EDIT: Quote:
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06-26-2007, 12:10 AM | #286 | |||
Illustrious Ulair
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06-26-2007, 03:33 AM | #287 | |
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Thena brings up a very interesting point about translations. Here in Germany, there are two translations of the LotR, one several decades old, the other was done in 2000. The first is considered better by a majority of book fans, as far as my subjective impression goes; it uses a more formal, old-fashioned language which is appropriate for the tone of the original, though it can be a bit dry.
The second was an attempt (unsuccessful, is the opinion of very many readers!) to modernize the language. It has been heavily promoted by the publisher, of course, and those who can afford only a paperback version have no choice - the older translation is still available, but only in expensive hardback. Some of the language in the modern translation is like a badly written fan fiction, in my opinion. I am sure Tolkien would not have approved of such things as Sam calling Frodo "Boss", for example!! However: "For some, the only glimpse. For some the awaking." Has it been positive in introducing a generation to the books? Probably - like the movies. Does it convey the spirit of Tolkien? Only partially - there are plenty of fan fictions that do better! But it's authorized, and for those who cannot read the original (which many German-speaking readers prefer if they know enough English to do so), it's all there is. Quote:
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'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...' Last edited by Estelyn Telcontar; 06-26-2007 at 03:46 AM. |
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06-26-2007, 04:47 AM | #288 | ||||||
Curmudgeonly Wordwraith
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And as far as neologisms, Bilbo uses a neologism in the Hobbit: the word 'confusticate', as the concoction of such pseudo-Latinate words were very popular in the 19th century. Furthermore: Quote:
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P.S. Davem, I do not wish to go 'round in circles regarding this digression, all I ask is that you supply textual quotes to bolster your claim. As I mentioned in my previous reply: Quote:
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06-26-2007, 06:31 AM | #289 | |||||
Illustrious Ulair
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I can only repeat that you do not get the significance of the dinner/lunch thing, or how lunch/dinner are not interchangeable terms to an English person, & which one you habitually use says a very great deal about you. Tolkien was an Englishman & he would not have thought of the terms as interchangeable. However, if you want to ignore the significance you can. You will miss out on a great deal of very interesting social commentary in both TH & LotR if you do ignore such 'trivialities', but its not to everyone's taste. Its there, but you can ignore it. Anyone who is interested can check out Shippey's Author of the Century. Honestly, I'm not sure this is actually getting anywhere anymore, as we're basically going around in circles. I shall therefore bow out of this digression gracefully |
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06-26-2007, 06:35 AM | #290 | ||
A Mere Boggart
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First off, I know full well that a lot of kids feel 'alienated' by being presented with Shaespeare to read, but that is not their problem, nor is it Shakespeare's. It is the teacher's problem, and given the right teaching, ALL readers can come to enjoy Shakespeare! I really, really hate dumbed down curricula which, with the best intentions usually, only deny certain sectors of society from access to quality literature and quality learning. For example, this trend to kids studying excerpts instead of works. A 'sexed-up' modern version (e.g. a film, comic book etc) can stand alongside an original as a fab teaching aid (or as fun - I personally love 'graphic versions' of books), but it can never be a replacement. Now onto language...a comparison between an British English speaker and any other English speaker might also be found in a modern English speaker and a speaker of Middle English. When I read Chaucer I pretty much understand what he wrote, but inevitably over time nuances have been lost - someone needs to tell me what these are! I am not upset nor is my intelligence insulted that someone steps in (usually a teacher or whoever writes the footnotes) to tell me what that word means, what it meant back then. Let's bring up Shakespeare again (you did so I can :P) - there are many words in his work I didn't understand until I was told what they meant - swive for example, and sneap - this latter I only discovered from talking to a modern day person from Nuneaton who uses the word in her everyday slang. I am really pleased I can find out what these words meant, it gives me greater understanding! So, I'm not sure why folk get so indignant when say davem brings up examples of language use that are specifically English (as in culturally not linguistically), but I think this could be down to the influence of Political Correctness. It's an uncomfortable, yet inevitable fact to me that when I pick up some Goethe to read (and I do like Faust, it's ace) I will inevitably, as a non-native German speaker (actually a pretty poor speaker of German at all) not understand the full meaning of some of the words therein unless someone tells me about them. However I'm not going to get in a hissyfit over it - it's life. As for other variations of English, yeah, I struggle with those too, and it causes much hilarity when I get American biscuits confused with English ones (along the lines of: Eyuw! Gravy? On Chocolate Hobnobs? You savages!) for example. but I'm not going to come over all insulted when a kindly American explains the difference! It's actually both funny and interesting to me. Same with a lot of songs - I just do not 'get' the references in the lyrics. Fact of life. So we have choices: we accept that sometimes some readers will not 'get' everything. we accept that annotated versions are actually useful. we don't get the hump when someone explains something from the culture of the writer. we carry on as we are, having hissy fits because we have a chip* about thinking the other person considers us a 'colonial' or a 'foreigner' - errr, no we don't, we just want to explain what it means because it's useful and informative. Otherwise it really is Political correctness gone mad... *it can be one from a sealed foil bag or one out of a dep fat fryer, I don't care either way... Quote:
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06-26-2007, 06:57 AM | #291 |
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Throughout this thread there has been mention of fan fiction. It has been said that much of it is rather bad but there are a few treasures among the stuff. Would it be possible for anyone - or several people - to provide links to the absolute best of such Middle-earth fan fiction? Are there any gems, on this site or any other, that many knowledgable fans have developed a consensus as to their quality? I would love to read them if I had a link... or two ... or more.
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06-26-2007, 07:12 AM | #292 | |
Eagle of the Star
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06-26-2007, 07:23 AM | #293 |
Princess of Skwerlz
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Sauron, our very own fan fiction site needs to be promoted more actively! Unlike general fan fiction sites, which often have few restrictions, it is moderated, so that a certain standard of writing is maintained. It is located here. Since recommendations would be taking this thread off-topic (as if it were still on... ), I will start a new thread in the Novices and Newcomers section for fan fiction infos and recommendations. It will be 'stuck' to the top, so do check it out there!
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06-26-2007, 07:42 AM | #294 |
Corpus Cacophonous
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For what it’s worth, davem and Lalwendë are, as one would expect, correct in their description of English terminology differing between the classes. In my experience, this is far less of an issue these days, although it can still crop up from time to time (as in the case of the recent fuss over words used by Kate Middleton’s mother, which I personally found rather cruel and silly). However, I still have my lunch during the day and my dinner in the evening, and would find it strange to do otherwise (although I use serviettes, rather than napkins, and relax on the sofa in the lounge, rather than sitting on the settee in the sitting-room ).
It is also fairly clear, in my view, that Tolkien based Hobbit society primarily, although not wholly, on English country life around the turn of the century, and that there is a palpable “class system” in the Shire. That said, I find the evidence suggesting that Tolkien used the word “lunch” in LotR to support this portrayal of Hobbit society extremely thin. Had he intended to do so, I strongly suspect that he would have been more careful in his use of terminology when acting as narrator, particularly in describing proceedings at the Long Expected Party, and he would not have had Old Nokes use the term “dinner” to describe an evening meal (and nor would he have had Bilbo, an affluent middle-classed Hobbit, use the same term for the midday meal). However, while (for these reasons) I find the substance of this digression irrelevant to the main thrust of this thread, it does raise a valid issue, which is the one that Thena has been trying to tease out. Given that Tolkien, being an individual, had a unique perspective on life, no one (not even Christopher, although he would come the closest) could ever write a tale set within Middle-earth which would be entirely consistent with Tolkien’s own Middle-earth writings. None of us would be able to ‘get’, let alone reproduce, every single ingredient which went into making his tales what they are. Does that mean that no one should try? Leaving aside the question of authorisation, which is a matter for the Estate, I cannot for the life of me see why not. If people derive pleasure from writing fan-fic and others derive pleasure from reading it, what is the problem? What does it matter if Hobbits do lunch or Elves snort? If you do not like it, you do not have to read it.
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06-26-2007, 07:51 AM | #295 | |
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06-26-2007, 08:15 AM | #296 | |
Corpus Cacophonous
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A fuller discussion of the point does not really belong here. There are threads which touch on this subject, although I cannot find the main the one that I have in mind (to which Child and Squatter contributed in particular, as I recall). If you are interested in exploring the point, the best thing to do (if you cannot find a suitable old thread either) is to start a new thread on the subject.
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06-26-2007, 08:51 AM | #297 | |
A Mere Boggart
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But no, I really don't have time to be rooting up juicy quotes from aged threads - I'm trying to keep an eye on the flooding situation round here and have been since this time yesterday. Do you really think I would pass up another chance to discuss class in Tolkien's work? I'm not here to write an A level essay, just to have a natter about Tolkien.
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06-26-2007, 09:03 AM | #298 | |
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06-26-2007, 09:29 AM | #299 | |
Illustrious Ulair
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So I lied about being done with the digression...
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06-26-2007, 09:47 AM | #300 | |
Shade of Carn Dűm
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I too would leave the question of authorisation aside. For my part that is what I have objected to/expressed reservations about. Back to the digression.
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06-26-2007, 09:53 AM | #301 | |
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06-26-2007, 10:15 AM | #302 | ||
Cryptic Aura
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The interpretation of Thena's point applies not only to Christopher Tolkien but to Tolkien himself. After all, he was constantly revising for consistency, no? It is difficult to define absolutely a "Style" that evolved even with the original author, over decades.
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06-26-2007, 10:17 AM | #303 | |
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06-26-2007, 11:06 AM | #305 |
Shade of Carn Dűm
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Well what I actually asked for is a quote from Tolkien expressing his views on the matter, which perhaps people might provide after voting in your poll.
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06-26-2007, 11:42 AM | #306 | |
Cryptic Aura
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Actions, it is said, speak louder than words.
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06-26-2007, 11:56 AM | #307 |
Shade of Carn Dűm
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The fact that you choose to see his actions as encouraging new tales is your opinion. It can't be offered as conclusive proof of Tolkien's encouragement of new tales. As I see it, his actions, at best, might indicate that he thought Christopher might carry on the work, not that he thought that anybody might do so. This is of course my opinion and also not conclusive proof of what Tolkien may have thought.
And we could go on, exchanging opinions and speculations. What I have asked for is some concrete evidence of what Tolkien thought on the matter.
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06-26-2007, 12:30 PM | #308 | |
Cryptic Aura
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alatar could be heading us in that direction though, with his scientific threads and all.
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06-26-2007, 12:52 PM | #309 | |
Illustrious Ulair
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These are cultural niceties, admittedly. I'm sure, for example, a Canadian would have no problem with an American 'dismissing' similar uniquely Canadian cultural niceties & turns of phrase as meaningless, or refusing to acknowledge they even exist .... EDIT oh yes....
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06-26-2007, 01:01 PM | #310 | |
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He looked down at her in the twilight and it seemed to him that the lines of grief and cruel hardship were smoothed away. "She was not conquered," he said Last edited by Morwen; 06-26-2007 at 01:08 PM. |
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06-26-2007, 02:41 PM | #311 | |
Spectre of Capitalism
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I have read all the foregoing posts about the varying interpretations of the noonday meal versus the evening meal, and come away not only unconvinced one way or the other, but reduced to a frustrating apathy about it. To me, if Tolkien had intended to make some kind of statement about the English classes, he was possessed of the wit, vocabulary, and intelligence to make it as obvious as he desired in the text, something that would be readily discerned in whatever language into which LOTR might be translated. The fact that it is not obvious (as shown by the fact that it has to be dragged through such pointed discussion) demonstrates to my own satisfaction that the niceties of meal timing were not uppermost in the author's intents. LOTR is a genius fantasy with soaring overarching themes: Justice, mercy, defeat, triumph, comradeship, loyalty, honor, courage...and here we are consuming prodigious quantities of Net bandwidth discussing the definition of "dinner". PUH-lease, do you not see the absurdity of it?
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06-26-2007, 02:54 PM | #312 | |
Princess of Skwerlz
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I am the culprit.
I used the word "lunch" in my fan fiction! In the serious one, telling the story of Frodo's friend Folco, who is mentioned at the beginning of LotR and then drops completely out of the story. However, as I researched painstakingly, the "lunch" reference came directly from Tolkien's own words. In "Three is Company", we read: Quote:
So sue me.
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'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...' |
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06-26-2007, 03:44 PM | #313 | |
A Mere Boggart
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The Sackville-Baggins are directly drawn from a certain class of arriviste, nouveau, middle-class English that were (and still are) prevalent when Tolkien wrote - their vocal and visible pre-occupation with money and property in contrast to Bilbo's quiet gentility. Garth and Shippey also pointed out that they are also drawn from Tolkien's particular distaste for the self-styled Aesthetes and the Bloomsbury Set. Sackville? A name also to be found in one Bloomsbury personage Vita Sackville-West. Tolkien was known to associate more with the 'hearty' set at Oxford. Another example is the wonderful flustering of Bilbo early in the Hobbit - it is exactly the reaction of a typical English person to an unwanted visitor - unable to turn Gandalf away and yet desperate to do so. He's suspicious of strangers, as are all Hobbits, yet unable to bring himself to be rude to them. He does not want these Dwarves eating his food yet he feels he must be hospitable. It's just wonderful. Bilbo is the perfect gentle pen-picture of the Little Englander. And of course we all know about Sam, drawn from the ordinary English soldier, the rural boy cast into desperate circumstances. Now, why can nobody answer my question about why you are all so flustered by the simple fact that Tolkien was English and did make use of English things? Why must we be so bland and Politically Correct? People the world over love Tolkien, Americans more than most, but they can also accept the wonderful quirky English stuff contained therein. I know it's a hard thing to take on board that some (not necessarily all) British readers will understand some of the subtleties more than some (not necessarily all) non-British readers, but hey, it's a fact that I really don't understand many of the references in Hollywood films - I'm not insulted when someone explains them though. Someone please answer exactly what is so insulting about a British reader pointing up a British quirk to be found in a British book? Are you also insulted by reading footnotes in a Chaucer text? The Director's commentary on a difficult arty film? So, if nobody can answer that, then the position now is that his Englishness and his class and his background is just a bit dirty somehow? Is that Political Correctness not also insulting to British readers and to Tolkien himself?
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06-26-2007, 04:16 PM | #314 | |
Spectre of Capitalism
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06-26-2007, 04:37 PM | #315 | ||||
Illustrious Ulair
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Everything in LotR is in there because Tolkien chose to put in there. To say 'I acknowledge it's there, but it doesn't interest me' is fine. To say 'It's not there' when it clearly is is not. Hobbits are not Numenoreans - ie they are not some kind of mid Atlantic race & The Shire is not the 51st State. It is an idealised (though not perfect) representation of the rural England Tolkien knew as a child - with its class differences, its language & its values. You can't simply dismiss that. Now, once the Shire is left behind we enter a more universal, historical/mythical world. This is not about staking a claim to Tolkien's work - its about acknowledging the sources Tolkien drew on.
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“Everything was an object. If you killed a dwarf you could use it as a weapon – it was no different to other large heavy objects." Last edited by davem; 06-26-2007 at 04:43 PM. |
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06-26-2007, 07:08 PM | #316 |
Cryptic Aura
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Ah ha! Estelyn has spilled the beans, drawn my thunder, precipitated my plans. I was all set to announce a contest where we all read the BD fanfiction and RPGs to find this lunch that was so nauseating for davem, but alas elves pulled me away from this sub-topic and now we all know to pursue the MeriSue.
The point is not that we North Americans just don't get English social status. We do. The point is not that we demand some bland Politically Correct interpretations. We don't. Those are mischaracterisations of the argument here. They are in fact red herrings that ignore the basic thrust of the various positions here. The point is that there is no one absolute, authoritative way to read LotR or to judge its style or to hold fanfiction writers to some absolute way of writing. If lunch jumps out for some Yorkshire readers, Roman Catholic symbols and colours jump out for other readers. And literary allusions to all kinds of sagas, myths, legends, literary works, and archetypes keep wafting into other readers' minds, like savoury stew simmering. Language changes over time as well as over water. What may serve to inspire readers of one generation will perhaps bore another generation, who will find something else in the books. And the really good fanfiction writers will be doing that mediating between their culture and the books and the milieu which formed Tolkien, if they are to attract readers to their imagined world of Middle-earth. There are, indeed, many ways to do lunch.
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I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away. |
06-26-2007, 08:32 PM | #317 | |||
Curmudgeonly Wordwraith
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Ensconced in curmudgeonly pursuits
Posts: 2,528
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Quote:
Quote:
I will ask a third time, in fact I will post the same request I posted the first two times: Quote:
If you'd like to discuss something that has an actual bearing on class distinctions among Hobbits (and there were many and easily discernible and textually provable), then please drop this farcical argument.
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And your little sister's immaculate virginity wings away on the bony shoulders of a young horse named George who stole surreptitiously into her geography revision. Last edited by Morthoron; 06-26-2007 at 08:40 PM. |
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06-26-2007, 10:54 PM | #318 |
Spectre of Capitalism
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Battling evil bureaucrats at Zeta Aquilae
Posts: 990
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Forget wings...do Balrogs have 'lunch'? That's what this debate has become. Rather than discuss the thread topic, we digress into whatever controversy best facilitates argument without resolution, continued restatements and rehashings of tired points, seldom even dressed in new verbage. Please forgive me for interjecting my thoughts, and getting in the way of a good row.
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The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane. ~~ Marcus Aurelius |
06-27-2007, 12:31 AM | #319 |
Illustrious Ulair
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
Posts: 4,256
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“Everything was an object. If you killed a dwarf you could use it as a weapon – it was no different to other large heavy objects." Last edited by davem; 06-27-2007 at 12:38 AM. |
06-27-2007, 01:36 AM | #320 |
Princess of Skwerlz
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles)
Posts: 7,645
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At this point, this discussion is generating more heat than light. I am therefore temporarily closing the thread to give participants time to reread the beginning pages and remember what the actual topic is. It would also be nice if the interim could be used for finding other threads or starting new, interesting discussions that will provide us all with real food for thought.
Either that, or you may use this commercial break to have breakfast, lunch, a snack, dinner, supper, or whatever you choose to call the intake of edibles at this or any other time of day in yours or any other country!
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'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...' |
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